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Tags Florida incidents , shooting incidents , texting incidents

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Old 15th January 2014, 01:59 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
That's an interesting way of looking at it. What percentage of homicides do you consider insignificant?
Concealed carry holders account for far less than 1% of gun homicides. Insignificant.

Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Does that comment show support for guns and drugs? What about in combination? Utopia for me doesn't consist of drugged up people running around armed, but I understand opinions differ.
That comment is in regards to the thousands of deaths each year fueled by the "war on drugs" which you don't seem at all bothered by and in fact think is a very good thing, a small price to pay for the possibility that someone, somewhere, might not get high.

And no one has suggested that drugged up people should run around armed, any more than drunk people should run around armed. Take your strawman elsewhere.
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Old 15th January 2014, 02:02 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
So you withdraw saying that people resisting such a law is evidence the law is needed?

You've been pretty clear on the premise that people who want to keep guns are bad. Sorry, but not using the word 'bad' doesn't actually alleviate that. You want your opponents to be criminals for something that is currently not criminal and using your desire for it be criminal as a way to tar them. It's the same faulty reasoning as calling your desire 'theft'.
Maybe I didn't get the point of the original objection. I'll try again because I think I understand the circular nature.

If I propose a law and am told that such a law would be disobeyed, then those who say they would break such a law are self-identifying as potential law breakers. It's circular only to the extent that we assume the law is so unbearably unjust or immoral that it must be disobeyed. So, for example, if I propose a law to kill everyone under 12, someone who says they would break such a law is willing to become a criminal in service of their beliefs.

I get the circular nature, but there's a purpose as well. The purpose is to show just how far a pro-gun advocate is willing to go. It is a measure of their zealotry when they admit they intend to break the law than give up their weapons. Further, it's a sweet contrast with an existing pro-gun meme: the idea that the world is divided into good guys (non-criminal who should have guns) and bad guys (criminal, who shouldn't). When the "criminal" label falls on them, I hope it exposes this point too.

The whole structure is predicated on this idea of separate, valid groups - those who should be able to own guns and those who shouldn't. In my view, no one should own guns and the groupings no longer apply.

Every argument the pro-gun folks use to justify their gun ownership has a parallel in the criminal world. Criminals also have an addition reason - they might very well make a living by displaying a gun or shooting their victims. To take the pro-gun arguments seriously would be to allow those they fear the most to have guns.

Last edited by marplots; 15th January 2014 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 15th January 2014, 02:04 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Of course you're atypical, you're a huge city. The drugs and gang culture that exists in Chicago simply doesn't exist in Smalltownsville USA.
The murder rate in small towns is also fueled by the drug war, meth in particular. It's not Bill and Sue upstanding citizen suddenly going homicidal over a traffic altercation. Nationwide, IIRC, about 75% of murderers and their victims have criminal records. Murder is rarely the first crime someone commits.

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The we're furiously agreeing, what I was suggesting was that whatever criteria are applied, the police chief here would be likely to pass them (unless there is a history of behaviour of which I am unaware which would disqualify him).
Ok.
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Old 15th January 2014, 02:07 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
But comparing to the Central African Republic, Afghanistan, Yemen or Mexico is IMO less valid than comparing it to other developed countries.
It's no less valid than comparing it with countries that have vastly different demographics and culture. The non-firearm homicide rate in the USA is by itself several times higher than the UK overall rate.

Last edited by WildCat; 15th January 2014 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 15th January 2014, 02:12 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Concealed carry holders account for far less than 1% of gun homicides. Insignificant.
Thank you for being so clear about it.

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
That comment is in regards to the thousands of deaths each year fueled by the "war on drugs" which you don't seem at all bothered by and in fact think is a very good thing, a small price to pay for the possibility that someone, somewhere, might not get high.
Illegal drug sales might be one reason for gun violence, but it shares a common attribute with other gun deaths - a gun is involved.

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
And no one has suggested that drugged up people should run around armed, any more than drunk people should run around armed. Take your strawman elsewhere.
Good. Then Florida law seems apt:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/.../0790.151.html

CRIMES Chapter 790
WEAPONS AND FIREARMS

790.151 Using firearm while under the influence of alcoholic beverages, chemical substances, or controlled substances; penalties.—

(1) As used in ss. 790.151-790.157, to “use a firearm” means to discharge a firearm or to have a firearm readily accessible for immediate discharge.

(2) For the purposes of this section, “readily accessible for immediate discharge” means loaded and in a person’s hand.

(3) It is unlawful and punishable as provided in subsection (4) for any person who is under the influence of alcoholic beverages, any chemical substance set forth in s. 877.111, or any substance controlled under chapter 893, when affected to the extent that his or her normal faculties are impaired, to use a firearm in this state.

(4) Any person who violates subsection (3) commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(5) This section does not apply to persons exercising lawful self-defense or defense of one’s property.
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Old 15th January 2014, 02:12 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Concealed carry holders account for far less than 1% of gun homicides. Insignificant.


That comment is in regards to the thousands of deaths each year fueled by the "war on drugs" which you don't seem at all bothered by and in fact think is a very good thing, a small price to pay for the possibility that someone, somewhere, might not get high.

And no one has suggested that drugged up people should run around armed, any more than drunk people should run around armed. Take your strawman elsewhere.
Where are you getting your figures from?
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Old 15th January 2014, 02:14 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
I won't speculate as to the shooter's motives. I just wish more gun owners would choose less lethal protection. The variety and effectiveness of these devices as grown in the last decade to a point where they are a more effective deterrent than guns for almost every situation except someone committing premeditated murder.
Absolute nonsense.
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Old 15th January 2014, 02:17 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by AbleSugar View Post
Wow! Cops can routinely get away with killing people?
Do they have a quota? Are they allowed to kill more than one person a week?
Since they are allowed to routinely kill people I wonder why it makes national and world news when it does happen.
Do tell when the last time a police internal review found a police killing was unjustified.

Also explain what criminal charges were filed against these cops in this incident. Do you think a civilian would not be charged in such an instance?
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Old 15th January 2014, 02:17 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
I get a gun to avoid a force discrepancy so my opponent gets a bigger gun for the same reason, where does this end short of all out nuclear war?
Show me evidence this kind of arms race occurs in self defense encounters.


There is a reason that handguns are the most prevalent weapon and it has nothing to do with an arms race.
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Old 15th January 2014, 02:21 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Thank you for being so clear about it.



Illegal drug sales might be one reason for gun violence, but it shares a common attribute with other gun deaths - a gun is involved.
Correlation =/= causation.
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Old 15th January 2014, 02:27 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
Correlation =/= causation.
I'm pretty sure this is an exception. Guns are correlated with gun deaths because you need a gun to accomplish the act. More of a definitional thing that a correlation thing.
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Old 15th January 2014, 02:29 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
Show me evidence this kind of arms race occurs in self defense encounters.


There is a reason that handguns are the most prevalent weapon and it has nothing to do with an arms race.
Cheaper to buy than other types of gun, easy to carry especially concealed, effective over short ranges which suits self defence applications. There may be others I have not thought of, but since I live somewhere guns are not needed, I do not know what they are.
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Old 15th January 2014, 02:31 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I'm pretty sure this is an exception. Guns are correlated with gun deaths because you need a gun to accomplish the act. More of a definitional thing that a correlation thing.
The causal link is not guns to violence, it is guns to deaths. There could have been a violent confrontation in the cinema. Add a gun to that mix and the chances of there being a death rises.
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Old 15th January 2014, 02:40 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Maybe I didn't get the point of the original objection. I'll try again because I think I understand the circular nature.

If I propose a law and am told that such a law would be disobeyed, then those who say they would break such a law are self-identifying as potential law breakers. It's circular only to the extent that we assume the law is so unbearably unjust or immoral that it must be disobeyed. So, for example, if I propose a law to kill everyone under 12, someone who says they would break such a law is willing to become a criminal in service of their beliefs.

I get the circular nature, but there's a purpose as well. The purpose is to show just how far a pro-gun advocate is willing to go. It is a measure of their zealotry when they admit they intend to break the law than give up their weapons. Further, it's a sweet contrast with an existing pro-gun meme: the idea that the world is divided into good guys (non-criminal who should have guns) and bad guys (criminal, who shouldn't). When the "criminal" label falls on them, I hope it exposes this point too.
But the argument falls right back around making you a fanatic who's willing to abrogate the rights of people and not care that people will die resisting that because only criminals would resist. In the name of preventing bloodshed you'd happily escalate it to widespread bloodshed.

There are other ways to address gun violence issues but you'd rather demonize gun owners.

Again, you're arguing that it's evidence of the justness of such a law because those that resist it are 'bad guys' (or zealots as you put it) and criminals. The law should be supported on it's own merits or lack thereof.

Quote:
The whole structure is predicated on this idea of separate, valid groups - those who should be able to own guns and those who shouldn't. In my view, no one should own guns and the groupings no longer apply.

Every argument the pro-gun folks use to justify their gun ownership has a parallel in the criminal world. Criminals also have an addition reason - they might very well make a living by displaying a gun or shooting their victims. To take the pro-gun arguments seriously would be to allow those they fear the most to have guns.

And? This doesn't actually support what you're saying. Every argument from pro-gun folks has a criminal parallel for you obviously because gun owners are criminals, again for you.

I think I'm done with you on this topic. There's important work to be done reducing gun violence in the US and it won't happen discussing it with you or the NRA. While you fantasize about all the gun owners being arrested as the criminals they are and the NRA sits around dreaming about shooting down the evil gun grabbers I'll be advocating for universal background checks, education and other measures that might actually save lives in the reality and might actually be implemented in the US.
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Old 15th January 2014, 02:58 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
But the argument falls right back around making you a fanatic who's willing to abrogate the rights of people and not care that people will die resisting that because only criminals would resist. In the name of preventing bloodshed you'd happily escalate it to widespread bloodshed.
This is hyperbolic. I don't envision bloodshed. However, if gun owners do, then yes, I think that would be cause for concern.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
There are other ways to address gun violence issues but you'd rather demonize gun owners.
I haven't demonized them, they are people who like guns. I expect that most would follow the law in a gun ban. As much as the argument seems to fall out as good vs. bad, it doesn't. It's a difference of opinion. It's only when someone takes their difference of opinion so far that they wouldn't be willing to follow a duly enacted law that they've breached the standard.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Again, you're arguing that it's evidence of the justness of such a law because those that resist it are 'bad guys' (or zealots as you put it) and criminals. The law should be supported on it's own merits or lack thereof.
Indeed. But somehow we drifted into enforcement instead of the merits of the law. Partly this is because, even when someone agrees that a ban might be beneficial, they may respond that it's impossible in practice.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
And? This doesn't actually support what you're saying. Every argument from pro-gun folks has a criminal parallel for you obviously because gun owners are criminals, again for you.
This is incorrect. They are not criminals, they own legally. I was remarking that every reason given for civil disobedience on this matter has a parallel in a group that pro-gun advocates already think shouldn't own guns. That is, the existing criminal class.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I think I'm done with you on this topic. There's important work to be done reducing gun violence in the US and it won't happen discussing it with you or the NRA. While you fantasize about all the gun owners being arrested as the criminals they are and the NRA sits around dreaming about shooting down the evil gun grabbers I'll be advocating for universal background checks, education and other measures that might actually save lives in the reality and might actually be implemented in the US.
Nobody wants to arrest gun owners. I just want them to become not-gun-owners. It's really a simple concept. I was a gun owner, I'm not now. It can be done. I didn't think of myself as a criminal because I owned guns. When it became illegal for me to own them, I got rid of them rather than become a criminal. I think most gun owners would do the same. Some wouldn't.
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Old 15th January 2014, 02:59 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
Show me evidence this kind of arms race occurs in self defense encounters.
I have no doubt some will the choose larger, more bullets approach, but others will simply decide all things being equal, the fastest draw wins.
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Old 15th January 2014, 03:04 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
That's isn't what arth claimed. At least not the way I read it.

I can't read it any other way.

Quote:
A "tiny" minority that happens to be considerably larger than any other similar minority in the world.
I'm not going to argue what he meant, as only Arth is qualified to clarify that, but I hardly think I can be blamed for reading it the way I have.
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Old 15th January 2014, 04:30 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Why do the talked-about self-defense shootings in Florida always seem to be against a guy carrying junk food?



Next time I'm in Florida, I'm not carrying anything more dangerous than an apple. (or an orange, since it's Florida.)

They can have my Snickers bar when they pry it from my cold, dead hand!
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Old 15th January 2014, 04:40 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Concealed carry holders account for far less than 1% of gun homicides. Insignificant.
What's the percentage of people in the USA who conceal carry ?
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Old 15th January 2014, 04:52 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by IXP View Post
I hereby declare this thread to be won by the anti-gun people, with second place to the "ex cops are the last people I would allow to carry guns" people.



IXP

I'm quite liberal in my politics, and I'm not "anti-gun". In fact, I love guns and enjoy them.

I'm just against lunatics and the NRA, which are kind of one in the same.
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Old 15th January 2014, 04:55 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I've been told an armed society is a polite society. How much less polite are we now that an armed old guy is no longer on the streets shooting people?
The reduction to 'more polite' is from one less person inappropriately texting.
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Old 15th January 2014, 04:56 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Interestingly, it's not the first time the shooter has had an apparent psychotic break over seeing someone text in the theater. A woman reported to the local television station that last month at the same theater, the same guy noticed her texting in the theater and went all creepy on her and her husband, even after she turned off her phone in an attempt to satisfy him. On that occasion also, he left the auditorium to "find a manager", and then returned afterwards, ostensibly without one. One wonders.

Obviously he was just "standing his ground."

If I were in favor of the death penalty, I'd want this guy to fry.
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Old 15th January 2014, 05:17 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
I'm quite liberal in my politics, and I'm not "anti-gun". In fact, I love guns and enjoy them.

I'm just against lunatics and the NRA, which are kind of one in the same.
Thanks. Sometimes I feel alone in these assumed-dichotomy threads.
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Old 15th January 2014, 05:22 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
Obviously he was just "standing his ground."

"Valiantly, even courageously standing his ground against a hail of popcorn ..."
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Old 15th January 2014, 05:29 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Now if we just had a way to tell who those abrogators will be.
Can't be any harder than telling who the bad drivers are, right? And everyone knows there's no bad drivers out there, they're licensed after all.
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Old 15th January 2014, 05:31 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
No, but what about those of us who want to live in a world where if a guy has a gun hidden in his pocket like a dastardly scum, he's a criminal?
I think you should live in some other country. The country I want to live in doesn't criminalize things that have no impact on the lives and rights of others.
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Old 15th January 2014, 05:32 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Did you read the article?
I've read several articles on the incident, including the one where the judge denied bail because of the strength of the evidence against him.

Was there an article in some alternate universe where he was let go because of SYG?
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Old 15th January 2014, 05:41 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Where are you getting your figures from?
The other threads where someone trots out 5 or 6 years worth of stats on CCW holders who have killed someone. The homicide rate of that group is several times lower than even the UK's rate.
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Old 15th January 2014, 05:44 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
I get a gun to avoid a force discrepancy so my opponent gets a bigger gun for the same reason, where does this end short of all out nuclear war?
A "bigger gun" doesn't convey any sort of extra advantage. It's harder to conceal, harder to draw, and harder to shoot accurately. Go to any firearms board and try to find consensus on the 'best" self-defense caliber, I assure you you won't find it.
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Old 15th January 2014, 05:50 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What's the percentage of people in the USA who conceal carry ?
Probably about 5%. The Illinois State Police expect at least 400,000 permits to be issued this year, the first year they're issued here. So far over 1,000 applications per day are pouring in. IIRC over 22 million have been issued nationwide, though not all states require a permit to carry and many people have permits from different states.
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Old 15th January 2014, 06:01 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
I've read several articles on the incident, including the one where the judge denied bail because of the strength of the evidence against him.

Was there an article in some alternate universe where he was let go because of SYG?
So, you didn't read the article. I didn't expect you to. You comment on it without bothering to read it, as usual.
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Old 15th January 2014, 06:52 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
I think you should live in some other country. The country I want to live in doesn't criminalize things that have no impact on the lives and rights of others.
You live in a country where it`s illegal to ride in a car without using your seat belt.
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Old 15th January 2014, 08:26 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I think reasonable gun owners will obey the law and turn them in. Pretty much how we rely on a virtuous population to pay their taxes. Sure, we check once in a while, but mostly we allow folks to be honest and good citizens.
I am probably missing something, but here in the U.S. I cannot think of a single tax in which the collection thereof relies on the virtuousness of the population. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point.


Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I owned a few guns. When it became illegal for me to own them I got rid of them. It's not such a big deal. And, not to get too picky, but the guns in question aren't being mishandled. Unlike our hypothetical citizen-owned plutonium, the guns were being used and doing exactly what they were designed to do.

Well, how were guns made illegal in your country?

(1)In the U.S. the only legal way to make guns illegal is to pass a Constitutional amendment repealing the Second Amendment.
(A)If the government took any other action to make guns illegal, then many, many gun owners would say such a law is unjust because it is inherently unconstitutional. Many would feel justified in breaking such an unconstitutional law.

(B) Amending the Constitution is such a lengthy and arduous process that there is absolutely no way the Second Amendment is going to be legally repealed anytime in the next 20 years.
(2) Assuming the 2A were repealed, should U.S. gun owners expect to be compensated for turning in their guns?

...............

I am not trying to start (or escalate) a pissing match. I just want to point out that because of America's history and America's political system, solutions that effectively worked for other countries cannot be implemented here.
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Old 15th January 2014, 08:38 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
When people debating the gun issue say that the US has the highest rate of gun crime in the world, they seem to forget that the world includes quite a few nations outside of Europe, North America, and Australia.

Comparing the US to the World puts it much lower on the list of violent countries.
I didn't compare America to the world, I compared the minority of irresponsible gun owners to similar minorities in the world.

It would help if you didn't claim that I said something I didn't say, thanks.
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Old 15th January 2014, 08:40 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
True. Here's a list of countries with homicide-by-firearm rates (per 100,000) greater than 1.0, derived from Wikipedia's table as of this morning:
Ditto.
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Old 15th January 2014, 08:41 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
joesixpack was responding to a poster (arthwollipot) who made the claim you highlighted.
I did not. See above.
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Old 15th January 2014, 08:45 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
I'm not going to argue what he meant, as only Arth is qualified to clarify that, but I hardly think I can be blamed for reading it the way I have.
Except that you did argue what I meant. I hope I have sufficiently clarified it for you.
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Old 15th January 2014, 08:55 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
...............

I am not trying to start (or escalate) a pissing match. I just want to point out that because of America's history and America's political system, solutions that effectively worked for other countries cannot be implemented here.
It needs repeated that history and politics aren't the only reasons for it being unlikely to work in the US. There is a demand for firearms in the US that makes banning them create more problems than it solves even if a ban could be passed and leaving out people who actually have great need of a firearm (almost every single person in Alaska).

Take alcohol for example. Now I'm going to get all sorts of straw men, special pleading, and cherry picking for making a comparison of anything to guns but it's worth that for this point. In 2010 the alcohol related deaths in the UK were 12.9 per 100,000. If the gun deaths in the US justify banning guns then why don't the alcohol deaths in the UK justify banning alcohol? Well because like pot, banning alcohol caused more problems than it solved. I know people will argue something about alcohol deaths being likely to kill only the user (wrong) and alcohol not being a weapon (right), but my point stands that one of the reasons an alcohol ban in the UK and a gun ban in the US are bad ideas is the same. As many lives as it might seem to save in theory and as much as it might work in other locals, it won't work without causing many more negative outcomes than not doing so.
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Old 15th January 2014, 10:18 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
You really think that because Rodney King's beating was a huge story, that it makes international news every time cops decide to needlessly beat someone? That seems to be implication of your logic there.
I don't quite follow you. I said:
Originally Posted by AbleSugar View Post
Wow! Cops can routinely get away with killing people?
Do they have a quota? Are they allowed to kill more than one person a week?
Since they are allowed to routinely kill people I wonder why it makes national and world news when it does happen.
I posted that in response to WildCat saying this about retired senior law enforcement officers carrying guns
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Why would you want people used to routinely getting away with killing people who weren't a threat to be armed?
I am saying,, and it is a fact,, that Law enforcement officers do not and are not allowed to routinely "get away" with killing people.
If cops were allowed to routinely kill people with no repercussions than I suspect there would be a lot more interesting people applying for jobs with the police force.
Most cops are probably good people working a bad job. I believe that most cop haters are people who couldn't pass the exams.
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Old 15th January 2014, 10:57 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Cheaper to buy than other types of gun, easy to carry especially concealed, effective over short ranges which suits self defence applications. There may be others I have not thought of, but since I live somewhere guns are not needed, I do not know what they are.
Actually. most of my pistols cost more than many rifles. Not because of silliness, but because I do not want to need to be concerned about my weapons malfunctioning or firing when I do not intend them to fire. And, of course, I want to be able to hit what I am aiming at.
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