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Tags Florida incidents , shooting incidents , texting incidents

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Old 14th January 2014, 09:14 AM   #81
Upchurch
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I've been told an armed society is a polite society. How much less polite are we now that an armed old guy is no longer on the streets shooting people?

Won't somebody think of the children's manners?
Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
This just seems blithely ignorant of the meaning of that quote.
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
It was a joke. I am not ignorant of the meaning of the saying. I was using it to parody the Helen Lovejoy catchphrase from the Simpsons. In this case, I was being (facetiously) more concerned about people's manners and politeness than I was about their lives or well-being. This is counter-intuitive to most people's sense of priorities and, thus, a comical take on a situation.

However, you were ironically ignorant of the meaning of the statement that you quoted. Hence, the exploding irony detector.

And, now that I had to explain the joke, the joke is now dead. Won't somebody please think about the jokes?!?

See? I did it again.


Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
Answer the question. Can there be a deterrent more effective than the potential of death?
Yes, the potential of harm or abduction to my children. [/serious answer]

Won't somebody please think about...

Never mind. I've now played that one into the ground.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:16 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Redtail View Post
Yes. Clear thinking.
Also that.
Preferably that.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:18 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Peephole View Post
Negotiators also agreed to block the Obama administration from imposing standards that effectively would prohibit the sale of incandescent light bulbs. The move continues a prohibition that Republicans imposed when they took control of the House in 2011.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...utm_medium=RSS

Wtf? Is there an incandescent light bulb lobby now that has bribed Republicans?
No, just more opposing Obama on everything regardless of what it is.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:20 AM   #84
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Well at least school shootings are down this week! So there's that.


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Old 14th January 2014, 09:20 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
You would think a retired officer would know when he can and cannot use deadly force, and where it's safe to fire a gun.

One wonders what might have happened had he been using a more powerful caliber than a .380? I guess he didn't care about bystanders much?

There are so many things wrong with shooting someone in this situation that I tend to think there must be something more to the story, but somehow I doubt it.

I guess that we will hear that the victim threatened the ex-cop, true or not, and we will get some sort of plea deal.

Unless, as I mentioned earlier, he left to get the .380, and not a manager. Even an ex-cop would have a hard time trying to explain that.
Well, looking at the family picture, he literally is head & shoulders taller than his wife. If she's not exceptionally short, I'd guess he's about 6'5"-6'6". The "threat" might have simply been him standing up.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:28 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Peephole View Post
Negotiators also agreed to block the Obama administration from imposing standards that effectively would prohibit the sale of incandescent light bulbs. The move continues a prohibition that Republicans imposed when they took control of the House in 2011.
Why is that a thing?
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:30 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Redtail View Post
Well, looking at the family picture, he literally is head & shoulders taller than his wife. If she's not exceptionally short, I'd guess he's about 6'5"-6'6". The "threat" might have simply been him standing up.
This spells an end to Florida's basketball teams doing well.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:31 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I was once hit over the head with a box of chocolates in the Coliseum theatre in London during the interval of a performance by English National Opera. I had asked the lady, who was sitting behind me, if she might unwrap her chocolates from the rustly individual cellophane wrappers at the interval, so she could access them silently during the music, and she took offence.

I had no idea I was taking my life in my hands.

Rolfe.
Did you punch her in the nose, or sue for assault ? (I am somewhat joking)
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:32 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
Murder should be illegal regardless of the weapon used.
Right. Popcorn doesn't kill people. The only way to stop a bad guy with popcorn is a good guy with a gun popcorn.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:39 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by IXP View Post
This is perfect evidence for my assertion that we should have a mental health check for gun owners - and everyone should fail it. This guy was not just a retired cop, but a captain the Tampa police department. If someone who has risen to a high rank in the police department of a major city cannot be trusted to control himself when he is in a confrontation and has a gun, why do we think anyone could?

The "No true responsible gun owner" falacy kills again.

IXP
How could we think anyone could? Probably because the overwhelming majority of gun owners do act as responsible gun owners ('responsible' describing their use of firearms, not themselves in general) for their entire lives.

The phrase 'responsible gun owners' is descriptive and not predictive. It's used to point out that most gun owners don't ever do anything like say, the murderer from the OP. Of course there are the crazy statements of the NRA and the straw men that get made from every thought on guns in these threads, so I'm not holding my breath for a useful discussion.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:40 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
Can there be a deterrent more effective than the potential of death?
Reason.

ETA: Ninja'd by RedTail. I hate you !
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:40 AM   #92
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I have been told that old people are more physically vulnerable. They need guns to create force equalization. Without guns, they are more likely to be victimized by younger, healthier, stronger people.

This case seems to demonstrate that you can overcome a physical disadvantage due to age with a gun, giving our elderly the chance to be just as dangerous as any other criminal. Which is a good thing... maybe.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:42 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
How could we think anyone could? Probably because the overwhelming majority of gun owners do act as responsible gun owners ('responsible' describing their use of firearms, not themselves in general) for their entire lives.

The phrase 'responsible gun owners' is descriptive and not predictive. It's used to point out that most gun owners don't ever do anything like say, the murderer from the OP. Of course there are the crazy statements of the NRA and the straw men that get made from every thought on guns in these threads, so I'm not holding my breath for a useful discussion.
Shouldn't we wait to know someone broke the law before we claim anyone here was irresponsible? He might be a jerk but legally he could well be a responsible jerk.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:42 AM   #94
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Arming everyone wouldn't stop people shooting each other.
There will always be people who won't back down or think they can win a shoot out.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:43 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Shouldn't we wait to know someone broke the law before we claim anyone here was irresponsible? He might be a jerk but legally he could well be a responsible jerk.
That's a fair point. From the information available, it looks damn like murder. New information could invalidate my calling him a murderer though.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:44 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
You would think a retired officer would know when he can and cannot use deadly force, and where it's safe to fire a gun.
This has been proven to be untrue with astonishing regularity. Cops don't like having their authority (both real and imagined) challenged. I think you can pretty reliably predict that a cop (retired or otherwise) will escalate any and every confrontation.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:45 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Arming everyone wouldn't stop people shooting each other.
There will always be people who won't back down or think they can win a shoot out.
Indeed. The old 'polite society' line is, in my view, a crock.

Most big guys have stories of much smaller guys trying very hard to start fights with them.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:46 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
That's a fair point. From the information available, it looks damn like murder. New information could invalidate my calling him a murderer though.
Why? He has no legal requirement to avoid violent confrontations in florida. If he felt threatened he was totally in the right in florida. It is not unlikely that asside from assault by popcorn no laws were broken by either of these men.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:46 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The phrase 'responsible gun owners' is descriptive and not predictive. It's used to point out that most gun owners don't ever do anything like say, the murderer from the OP. Of course there are the crazy statements of the NRA and the straw men that get made from every thought on guns in these threads, so I'm not holding my breath for a useful discussion.
Isn't that a prediction?
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:48 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by IXP View Post
... This guy was not just a retired cop, but a captain the Tampa police department. If someone who has risen to a high rank in the police department of a major city cannot be trusted to control himself when he is in a confrontation and has a gun, why do we think anyone could?
Why the naive presumption that cops are the picture of mental health? Why would ANYONE assume that achieving a high rank in a police force be proof of a person's trustworthiness?
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:49 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Arming everyone wouldn't stop people shooting each other.
There will always be people who won't back down or think they can win a shoot out.
To be fair, it seems like if you shot first (and accurately) you would be more likely to win a shoot out.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:49 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Isn't that a prediction?
No. That's an observation.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:51 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why? He has no legal requirement to avoid violent confrontations in florida. If he felt threatened he was totally in the right in florida. It is not unlikely that asside from assault by popcorn no laws were broken by either of these men.
That's already been shown to not be the case in general let alone in this case where they've ruled that out.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:51 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Isn't that a prediction?
No it's a statement of fact.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:51 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
No. That's an observation.
So you aren't claiming that the track record indicates anything about future behavior? In other words, the class "responsible" is either only historical or empty?

I took it to mean that "responsible" was an attribute, an attribute with some duration and extension into the future. Please correct me.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:54 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by IXP View Post
This is perfect evidence for my assertion that we should have a mental health check for gun owners - and everyone should fail it.
If you want a gun, you're too crazy to have a gun. If you don't want a gun, you are allowed to have one.
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Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he were sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:57 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
So you aren't claiming that the track record indicates anything about future behavior? In other words, the class "responsible" is either only historical or empty?

I took it to mean that "responsible" was an attribute, an attribute with some duration and extension into the future. Please correct me.
You know to bite the nit before you toss it aside, right?
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:59 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
This has been proven to be untrue with astonishing regularity. Cops don't like having their authority (both real and imagined) challenged. I think you can pretty reliably predict that a cop (retired or otherwise) will escalate any and every confrontation.
Though you did indicate that you have a certain bias against cops, at least in the US. I don't think you can fit all of them in the same mould.
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Old 14th January 2014, 10:01 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
So you aren't claiming that the track record indicates anything about future behavior? In other words, the class "responsible" is either only historical or empty?

I took it to mean that "responsible" was an attribute, an attribute with some duration and extension into the future. Please correct me.
On the statistical level I guess you got me. We can use the fact that most gun owners are responsible with them as a general prediction that most gun owners aren't dangerous with their guns (a tautology). Most go their entire lives with no incidents. This can inform us as to what remedies are needed as we narrow down from 'gun owner' to find the other factors that create negative outcomes.

On the individual level no. You can't go from 'most gun owners are responsible' to 'this gun owner is responsible'. But that's hardly the point. If someone says, 'If a cop can't be responsible, then no one can' then it's trivial to point out that most are, so obviously someone can. To pick out the people who have been irresponsible and say that set proves no one is is confirmation bias and cherry picking.
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Old 14th January 2014, 10:15 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
On the statistical level I guess you got me. We can use the fact that most gun owners are responsible with them as a general prediction that most gun owners aren't dangerous with their guns (a tautology). Most go their entire lives with no incidents. This can inform us as to what remedies are needed as we narrow down from 'gun owner' to find the other factors that create negative outcomes.

On the individual level no. You can't go from 'most gun owners are responsible' to 'this gun owner is responsible'. But that's hardly the point. If someone says, 'If a cop can't be responsible, then no one can' then it's trivial to point out that most are, so obviously someone can. To pick out the people who have been irresponsible and say that set proves no one is is confirmation bias and cherry picking.
Depends on the outcome you are looking for. If the level of tragedy is acceptable, then there's no reason to alter the status quo. If, on the other hand, the outcomes are unsatisfactory, then the fact that even a "vast majority" never cause any problems doesn't help.

This is true for all such statistical measures. It's a fine thing that most legal gun owners will never kill in anger, but if I'm the one getting killed, or it's someone I love, there's small comfort in knowing how rare it is.

The fact that it seems to be unpredictable, insofar as our stereotypes don't seem to work for us - that matters. Legislation that restricts gun ownership is supposed to be identifying those classes of people for whom it is too risky to allow them a firearm. If we can't do this, then we have no basis for the legislation.

There is an out which would get past the statistical problem. Make gun ownership illegal. If there is no class of "legal gun owner," there aren't any legal guns to worry about, and the "responsible/irresponsible" category becomes an empty issue.
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Old 14th January 2014, 10:24 AM   #111
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And this is one of those situations where firearms probably turned a minor scuffle into a murder. Spree killings aren't the issue that people should be focusing on; its the way firearms can so readily escalate trivial disputes into tragedy.
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Old 14th January 2014, 10:37 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Did you punch her in the nose, or sue for assault ? (I am somewhat joking)

I accepted the management's offer of a transfer to a much better seat in a posher part of the auditorium for the remainder of the performance. (The altercation was seen by an usher who knew me personally because I was a frequent opera-goer and we had occasionally chatted about the performances.)

I declined the concurrent offer of a free ticket to a different performance as I had already seen that opera quite recently. The management were quite exceptionally grovelly to me, even though I didn't even call them. I can only suppose they didn't want me to make a complaint. Which I wasn't going to do anyway, life being altogether too short to worry about people like that. Even if you don't get shot by them two minutes later.

Rolfe.
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Old 14th January 2014, 10:38 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
That's already been shown to not be the case in general let alone in this case where they've ruled that out.
Where?
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Old 14th January 2014, 10:42 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Depends on the outcome you are looking for. If the level of tragedy is acceptable, then there's no reason to alter the status quo. If, on the other hand, the outcomes are unsatisfactory, then the fact that even a "vast majority" never cause any problems doesn't help.

This is true for all such statistical measures. It's a fine thing that most legal gun owners will never kill in anger, but if I'm the one getting killed, or it's someone I love, there's small comfort in knowing how rare it is.

The fact that it seems to be unpredictable, insofar as our stereotypes don't seem to work for us - that matters. Legislation that restricts gun ownership is supposed to be identifying those classes of people for whom it is too risky to allow them a firearm. If we can't do this, then we have no basis for the legislation.

There is an out which would get past the statistical problem. Make gun ownership illegal. If there is no class of "legal gun owner," there aren't any legal guns to worry about, and the "responsible/irresponsible" category becomes an empty issue.

What he said.

Rolfe.
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Old 14th January 2014, 10:53 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Depends on the outcome you are looking for. If the level of tragedy is acceptable, then there's no reason to alter the status quo. If, on the other hand, the outcomes are unsatisfactory, then the fact that even a "vast majority" never cause any problems doesn't help.

This is true for all such statistical measures. It's a fine thing that most legal gun owners will never kill in anger, but if I'm the one getting killed, or it's someone I love, there's small comfort in knowing how rare it is.

The fact that it seems to be unpredictable, insofar as our stereotypes don't seem to work for us - that matters. Legislation that restricts gun ownership is supposed to be identifying those classes of people for whom it is too risky to allow them a firearm. If we can't do this, then we have no basis for the legislation.

There is an out which would get past the statistical problem. Make gun ownership illegal. If there is no class of "legal gun owner," there aren't any legal guns to worry about, and the "responsible/irresponsible" category becomes an empty issue.
Well yes, but that's pointless. You then are still left with the tragedy caused by illegal gun owners plus all those that are created when people resist having their guns taken plus that caused by people who have actual use of firearms not having them. You could also nuke the earth and that would solve the gun problem, but that's not going to happen either and creates a bunch of other problems. That's not really an 'out' at all.

No one said the statue quo was fine here. There are a lot of options besides 'all guns illegal' and 'no restrictions at all'.

Besides all that it still leaves the 'if not an ex cop then no one' an untrue statement invalidated by the existence of people who never cause problems with their guns.

Obviously it depends on the outcome you're looking for. If you're looking for the perfect solution, then you have to entertain unreal solutions such as guns in the US becoming illegal suddenly.
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Old 14th January 2014, 10:54 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Where?
The OP.
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Old 14th January 2014, 10:54 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Someone who is actually responsible with their gun use...
And for around half a century, that is what this guy was.

All gun owners are law abiding gun owners until they're not.
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Old 14th January 2014, 10:56 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
And for around half a century, that is what this guy was.

All gun owners are law abiding gun owners until they're not.
All people are responsible until they are not.

All uses of speech are responsible till they are not.

All votes are responsible till they are not.

All significant others are responsible till they are not.

You're responsible till you're not.

Are we satisfied with meaningless statements now?
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Old 14th January 2014, 11:06 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
No one said the statue quo was fine here. There are a lot of options besides 'all guns illegal' and 'no restrictions at all'.
What did you have in mind? I assume it would address this kind of tragedy.
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Old 14th January 2014, 11:07 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
All people are responsible until they are not.

All uses of speech are responsible till they are not.

All votes are responsible till they are not.

All significant others are responsible till they are not.

You're responsible till you're not.

Are we satisfied with meaningless statements now?
If you include the following:

Gun control only hurts responsible gun owners.
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