ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Florida incidents , shooting incidents , texting incidents

Reply
Old 14th January 2014, 11:10 AM   #121
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
All people are responsible until they are not.

All uses of speech are responsible till they are not.

All votes are responsible till they are not.

All significant others are responsible till they are not.

You're responsible till you're not.

Are we satisfied with meaningless statements now?
Two differences. In the use of guns, it is likely someone ends up dead (sometimes many someones), and, there is a material object involved, not just a behavior. We severely restrict access to plutonium. We can do it because its a tangible thing. Restricting access means that responsible people don't get a chance to prove just how irresponsible they can be.
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:11 AM   #122
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,331
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
What did you have in mind? I assume it would address this kind of tragedy.
Universal background checks, safe storage requirements, safety course requirements, universal mental health checkups ('universal' meaning for everyone, not just people who want guns but everyone every year) are the ones off the top of my head.

No I don't know if it would address this kind of tragedy. Some level of tragedy is acceptable to me because I live in reality where everything has a cost of tragedy at some level. Reducing them as much as possible without creating more and unduly limiting freedoms is my general goal with everything.

Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
If you include the following:

Gun control only hurts responsible gun owners.
No because I'm for removing some 'gun controls' and for adding many others. I don't believe that's a true statement so I didn't include it.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:13 AM   #123
DavidJames
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 10,493
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
No because I'm for removing some 'gun controls' and for adding many others. I don't believe that's a true statement so I didn't include it.
Your stated criteria for including statements was that they were meaningless. Much like the one I stated.
__________________
For 15 years I never put anyone on ignore. I felt it important to see everyone's view point. Finally I realized the value of some views can be measured in negative terms and were personally destructive.
DavidJames is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:17 AM   #124
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,331
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Two differences. In the use of guns, it is likely someone ends up dead (sometimes many someones), and, there is a material object involved, not just a behavior. We severely restrict access to plutonium. We can do it because its a tangible thing. Restricting access means that responsible people don't get a chance to prove just how irresponsible they can be.
Can I now straw man that across the boards and start comparing everything to plutonium as is par for the coarse with all comparisons in the gun discussion?

There are many behaviors that involve material objects, behavior, and death including the use of many of those. It's called 'freedom of the press' for instance because of the printing press. Media used for speech are physical (yes you need physical objects to access electronic media as well) which could be restricted. Bit of a slippery slope argument, but you're the one that went straight to all guns being illegal.

Plutonium is easy to restrict access too, hard to produce, limited in application for the common man, has a lot less demand than firearms, and even easier than guns to mishandle in ways that lead to lots of death. But plutonium isn't illegal completely either simply highly regulated. It's heavy restrictions also doesn't cause as many problems as trying to do the same to guns.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:18 AM   #125
I Ratant
Penultimate Amazing
 
I Ratant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
When you're 71, I guess you don't take any crap from anyone at all...
.
We don't!
Whippersnappers!!!!
I Ratant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:19 AM   #126
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,331
Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Your stated criteria for including statements was that they were meaningless. Much like the one I stated.
Ah, I misunderstood. Yeah, add that one too.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:20 AM   #127
I Ratant
Penultimate Amazing
 
I Ratant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
The guy may have been a responsible gun owner at one time, but a geezer with a pocket cannon is just bad news waiting to happen.
.
Actually, it's no big thing... she tells me...
I Ratant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:21 AM   #128
DavidJames
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 10,493
Quote:
Reeves admitted to firing his weapon at the victim because "he was in fear of being attacked," according to the police report.
Considering he was an ex cop and it's Florida and now his excuse, I would guess the murderer will get off. A win for gun nuts everywhere.
__________________
For 15 years I never put anyone on ignore. I felt it important to see everyone's view point. Finally I realized the value of some views can be measured in negative terms and were personally destructive.
DavidJames is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:21 AM   #129
This is The End
 
This is The End's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,920
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I submit that it's impossible to murder someone whose response to complaints about their texting in a darkened theater is to throw popcorn at the complainer. If the law says otherwise, then the law is a ass.

I can't tell if this post is serious.
__________________
________________________
This is The End is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:22 AM   #130
I Ratant
Penultimate Amazing
 
I Ratant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And that's surprising to you ? People joke about tragedy all the time. I know I do.
.
From the executioin of Thomas Aikenhead for "blasphemy" in Scotland, 1697...
.
"Thomas Babington Macaulay said of Aikenhead's death that "the preachers who were the poor boy's murderers crowded round him at the gallows, and. . . insulted heaven with prayers more blasphemous than anything he had uttered."

Last edited by I Ratant; 14th January 2014 at 11:23 AM.
I Ratant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:25 AM   #131
This is The End
 
This is The End's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,920
Originally Posted by DreadNiK View Post
If it had been during the film I'd have more sympathy with the shooter and less with the deceased, that's just rude.

Another one... can't tell if serious.
__________________
________________________
This is The End is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:29 AM   #132
I Ratant
Penultimate Amazing
 
I Ratant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Well, I'm now distracted from this murder due to the huge Republican victory of getting our incandescent light bulbs back...
.
This from the most used light in the house... do THAT with an incandescent!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg CFL-4Years.jpg (66.6 KB, 9 views)
I Ratant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:31 AM   #133
I Ratant
Penultimate Amazing
 
I Ratant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Does anyone think that Reeves left, not to get a manager, but to get his pistol?

That would probably elevate the charge to first degree murder.

There's something wrong with part of the story, though. As far as I know, texting is silent, so it's hard to believe that bit of the story is true. Texting is unlikely to be what disturbed the shooter. I'm thinking he must have actually been talking on the phone.

Of course, the shooter is obviously crazy, so who knows what might set him off?
.
Mouth-breathers SAY each letter as they type it in!
And considering the inanity of most texts, listening to THAT has to be like hearing finger nails on the blackboard!
I Ratant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:34 AM   #134
Xulld
Master Poster
 
Xulld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,154
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Reason.

ETA: Ninja'd by RedTail. I hate you !
If you know that once reasoning fails a person can kill you, you stop the escalation at reasoning instead of stopping at force. Unless your ok with being dead.

That IS the point.

Not like it really matters, less than 3% of folks nationwide carry daily. No deterrent at those numbers even if it did work out of sight out of mind.

Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
.
Mouth-breathers SAY each letter as they type it in!
And considering the inanity of most texts, listening to THAT has to be like hearing finger nails on the blackboard!
Well, while we are speculating we could assume the dude had his sounds turned on and each text received made a sound, also it could be distracting to see the screen light up each time and this guy may have been the kind of person that shares each text with his partner sitting next to him.

It could also be true that we are not getting the whole story.
__________________
"Natural justice is a symbol or expression of usefullness, to prevent one person from harming or being harmed by another."-Epicurus

Freedom of Speech is a right recognized in the First Amendment. Freedom from consequence is nowhere to be found. -Bstrong

Last edited by Xulld; 14th January 2014 at 11:38 AM.
Xulld is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:34 AM   #135
I Ratant
Penultimate Amazing
 
I Ratant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
Originally Posted by DreadNiK View Post
...

Not turning off the input 'click/tone' should be a shootable offence anywhere in public (j/k but the sentiment is true)
.
The same for not using the mute option on their car lock!
I Ratant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:36 AM   #136
Gawdzilla Sama
121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
 
Gawdzilla Sama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri.
Posts: 42,180
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The movie hadn't started yet, according to most accounts, and some reports say the victim was talking to his daughter on the phone.

If the daughter is 3 years old, it seems unlikely that he was texting with his daughter.

Most stories also say it's unclear who threw the popcorn...
I've seen reports that they were talking to their babysitter, and the child was given the phone at some point in the check-in. As the movie hadn't started yet this was be the last check before the show.
__________________
Guns that are instantly available for use are instantly available for misuse.
World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources
Hyperwar, WWII Military History
Buying conspiracy books is a voluntary tax on stupid.
Gawdzilla Sama is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:42 AM   #137
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Can I now straw man that across the boards and start comparing everything to plutonium as is par for the coarse with all comparisons in the gun discussion?
Sure, if you need an example of a material object that is dangerous in civilian hands and is restricted because of it, it's almost perfect.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
There are many behaviors that involve material objects, behavior, and death including the use of many of those. It's called 'freedom of the press' for instance because of the printing press. Media used for speech are physical (yes you need physical objects to access electronic media as well) which could be restricted. Bit of a slippery slope argument, but you're the one that went straight to all guns being illegal.
Yes, I was acknowledging the fact that we could restrict them by way of the material object needed for a gun incident - as opposed to restricting the behavior, which we already do.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Plutonium is easy to restrict access too, hard to produce, limited in application for the common man, has a lot less demand than firearms, and even easier than guns to mishandle in ways that lead to lots of death. But plutonium isn't illegal completely either simply highly regulated. It's heavy restrictions also doesn't cause as many problems as trying to do the same to guns.
What do you envision would be the problems of disallowing gun purchases or ownership? Are these same responsible gun owners willing to become criminals because they like their guns so much? It might be a good way to separate out the truly law abiding from those who may be dangerous.

I owned a few guns. When it became illegal for me to own them I got rid of them. It's not such a big deal. And, not to get too picky, but the guns in question aren't being mishandled. Unlike our hypothetical citizen-owned plutonium, the guns were being used and doing exactly what they were designed to do.
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:55 AM   #138
Xulld
Master Poster
 
Xulld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,154
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Sure, if you need an example of a material object that is dangerous in civilian hands and is restricted because of it, it's almost perfect.



Yes, I was acknowledging the fact that we could restrict them by way of the material object needed for a gun incident - as opposed to restricting the behavior, which we already do.



What do you envision would be the problems of disallowing gun purchases or ownership? Are these same responsible gun owners willing to become criminals because they like their guns so much? It might be a good way to separate out the truly law abiding from those who may be dangerous.

I owned a few guns. When it became illegal for me to own them I got rid of them. It's not such a big deal. And, not to get too picky, but the guns in question aren't being mishandled. Unlike our hypothetical citizen-owned plutonium, the guns were being used and doing exactly what they were designed to do.
When did it become fashionable to take away the responsibility for the choices and actions of every single human being in a country of 330 million?

My best friend was beat to death by a fire extinguisher, and if she had had a gun she might be alive. I carry every single day and for that am no more responsible for this shooting than you are, but you would take away my ability to fight back against an attacker with my gun and place me on unequal footing with any old psychopath with a weapon of any kind whatsoever, and you call this progress?

Yea, lets go back to peasants and nobility while we are at it, because clearly this democracy and rights thing isn't working out, the statistics show that if only everyone was stripped of every choice and forced to take the safest path more people would be alive and we all know that is all that is important in life.
__________________
"Natural justice is a symbol or expression of usefullness, to prevent one person from harming or being harmed by another."-Epicurus

Freedom of Speech is a right recognized in the First Amendment. Freedom from consequence is nowhere to be found. -Bstrong
Xulld is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:55 AM   #139
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,790
Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Considering he was an ex cop and it's Florida and now his excuse, I would guess the murderer will get off. A win for gun nuts everywhere.
Yeah, the old "When the person I started the fight with fought back, I felt threatened so I shot him"

There is going to have to be something done about this, where someone can start a fight and then use it as a justification for shooting someone. The way it goes now, you can instigate the problem, and if other person "stands his ground," even without a weapon, you can shoot him and claim you felt threatened, because he was beating your ass.

That has to be fixed. Getting your ass kicked in a fight that you started cannot be justification for shooting that person. If so, you have just put the victim in the situation of either accepting getting beat up or get shot. And it is only by accepting to the beating that they have any recourse at all against the other person.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:56 AM   #140
Polaris
Penultimate Amazing
 
Polaris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,396
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Sure, if you need an example of a material object that is dangerous in civilian hands and is restricted because of it, it's almost perfect.



Yes, I was acknowledging the fact that we could restrict them by way of the material object needed for a gun incident - as opposed to restricting the behavior, which we already do.



What do you envision would be the problems of disallowing gun purchases or ownership? Are these same responsible gun owners willing to become criminals because they like their guns so much? It might be a good way to separate out the truly law abiding from those who may be dangerous.

I owned a few guns. When it became illegal for me to own them I got rid of them. It's not such a big deal. And, not to get too picky, but the guns in question aren't being mishandled. Unlike our hypothetical citizen-owned plutonium, the guns were being used and doing exactly what they were designed to do.
Only a dangerous criminal would want to keep property he legally purchased, has not used illegally, and would be compensated for by the government at pennies on the dollar.
__________________
"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar

"Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk.
Polaris is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:57 AM   #141
KoihimeNakamura
Creativity Murderer
 
KoihimeNakamura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: In 2.5 million spinning tons of metal, above Epsilion Eridani III
Posts: 7,958
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Why is that a thing?
Because they don't want federal government regulation. That's actually it.
__________________
Don't mind me.
KoihimeNakamura is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 11:59 AM   #142
This is The End
 
This is The End's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,920
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
All people are responsible until they are not.

All uses of speech are responsible till they are not.

All votes are responsible till they are not.

All significant others are responsible till they are not.

You're responsible till you're not.

Are we satisfied with meaningless statements now?

Exactly that. If only people could use logic to see through their bias that silly meme would just die.
__________________
________________________
This is The End is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:01 PM   #143
Xulld
Master Poster
 
Xulld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,154
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Yeah, the old "When the person I started the fight with fought back, I felt threatened so I shot him"

There is going to have to be something done about this, where someone can start a fight and then use it as a justification for shooting someone. The way it goes now, you can instigate the problem, and if other person "stands his ground," even without a weapon, you can shoot him and claim you felt threatened, because he was beating your ass.

That has to be fixed. Getting your ass kicked in a fight that you started cannot be justification for shooting that person. If so, you have just put the victim in the situation of either accepting getting beat up or get shot. And it is only by accepting to the beating that they have any recourse at all against the other person.
I expect the exact opposite. Here in Florida reasonable fear is a serious burden.

No weapon, no threats, no punches thrown, no furtive gestures toward a weapon? No deadly force, no reasonable fear.

I know all of the anti's will disagree despite the evidence, but Florida is hard on this kind of thing.

He was charged with 2nd degree murder, if no weapons are found, and no strikes occurred this ex-cop is going down hard.
__________________
"Natural justice is a symbol or expression of usefullness, to prevent one person from harming or being harmed by another."-Epicurus

Freedom of Speech is a right recognized in the First Amendment. Freedom from consequence is nowhere to be found. -Bstrong
Xulld is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:01 PM   #144
Ranb
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 10,243
Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Considering he was an ex cop and it's Florida and now his excuse, I would guess the murderer will get off. A win for gun nuts everywhere.
Prepare to be disappointed then.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/14/justic...ing/index.html
Quote:
A former Tampa, Florida, police officer accused of fatally shooting a man at a movie theater in the Tampa suburb of Wesley Chapel will be held without bond while he awaits trial, a judge ruled Tuesday afternoon. The judge ruled that there is "more than sufficient probable cause" to charge Curtis Reeves with second-degree murder.
When you're done cheering over another tragedy, maybe we could have some rational discussions?

Ranb
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:03 PM   #145
The Central Scrutinizer
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Central Scrutinizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 53,018
One good thing to come out of this might be that annoying people are afraid to take their cellphones into theaters.
__________________
If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer
The Central Scrutinizer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:03 PM   #146
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Only a dangerous criminal would want to keep property he legally purchased, has not used illegally, and would be compensated for by the government at pennies on the dollar.
Where was this incisive logic when the slaves were freed?

If that's too hyperbolic, how is that stash of dioxin in the garage? I hope its stored safely next to the asbestos.

Of course we make new laws that outlaw things that used to be legal. I'd propose that all new laws do just that. And of course someone is inconvenienced or it cost them money. Have you been following the Obamacare debate? Guns shouldn't be put on some kind of pedestal and made into holy, untouchable objects. If we, as a society, think we are better off without them, they should be gone.
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:04 PM   #147
Xulld
Master Poster
 
Xulld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,154
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Prepare to be disappointed then.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/14/justic...ing/index.html

When you're done cheering over another tragedy, maybe we could have some rational discussions?

Ranb
Yea I have no clue how anyone would think otherwise . . . .


Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Yeah, the old "When the person I started the fight with fought back, I felt threatened so I shot him"

There is going to have to be something done about this, where someone can start a fight and then use it as a justification for shooting someone. The way it goes now, you can instigate the problem, and if other person "stands his ground," even without a weapon, you can shoot him and claim you felt threatened, because he was beating your ass.

That has to be fixed. Getting your ass kicked in a fight that you started cannot be justification for shooting that person. If so, you have just put the victim in the situation of either accepting getting beat up or get shot. And it is only by accepting to the beating that they have any recourse at all against the other person.
I don't know about you but I would not describe the story related to us as the officer starting a fight, in fact with the only thing thrown being a bag, or bucket of popcorn I would describe this as a shooting, no fighting took place.

Arguments are not fighting for the purposes of this conversation.

Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Where was this incisive logic when the slaves were freed?

If that's too hyperbolic, how is that stash of dioxin in the garage? I hope its stored safely next to the asbestos.

Of course we make new laws that outlaw things that used to be legal. I'd propose that all new laws do just that. And of course someone is inconvenienced or it cost them money. Have you been following the Obamacare debate? Guns shouldn't be put on some kind of pedestal and made into holy, untouchable objects. If we, as a society, think we are better off without them, they should be gone.
If missing the point was a profession, no one here could afford to pay you. Reread the actual claim.
__________________
"Natural justice is a symbol or expression of usefullness, to prevent one person from harming or being harmed by another."-Epicurus

Freedom of Speech is a right recognized in the First Amendment. Freedom from consequence is nowhere to be found. -Bstrong

Last edited by Xulld; 14th January 2014 at 12:06 PM.
Xulld is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:10 PM   #148
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,790
Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
I expect the exact opposite. Here in Florida reasonable fear is a serious burden.

No weapon, no threats, no punches thrown, no furtive gestures toward a weapon? No deadly force, no reasonable fear.

I know all of the anti's will disagree despite the evidence, but Florida is hard on this kind of thing.

He was charged with 2nd degree murder, if no weapons are found, and no strikes occurred this ex-cop is going down hard.
I would hope your are right, but why wouldn't throwing popcorn at him be considered a threat? I realize it was just popcorn, but he wouldn't have to make that determination. The victim made a gesture of throwing something at him, he felt something hit him.

Moreover, so what if the victim DID throw punches? He was doing it in response to the guy threatening HIM!

Consider the irony of the situation: if the victim had pulled a gun on the mofo and shot him, he could have gotten off. But because he didn't pull a gun, if he had only started beating the snot out of the guy, the other guy could have justifiably shot him.

The specifics of this case are irrelevant to the principle: you can instigate a fight, and if you are losing, you are allowed to shoot the other person that you started it with.

In this case, it's not even that he was losing, it was that the other person started to fight back that he is using for justification. Whether the other person actually fought back or not should not matter, he was just defending himself.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:11 PM   #149
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
When did it become fashionable to take away the responsibility for the choices and actions of every single human being in a country of 330 million?
It was never not-fashionable. Every law on the books is designed to limit choices and actions. We have a phrase for it. We call it the "rule of law."

Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
My best friend was beat to death by a fire extinguisher, and if she had had a gun she might be alive. I carry every single day and for that am no more responsible for this shooting than you are, but you would take away my ability to fight back against an attacker with my gun and place me on unequal footing with any old psychopath with a weapon of any kind whatsoever, and you call this progress?
If you have some way to make sure that guns will only be used to make us safer, please outline it. From where I'm sitting, they make the world less safe. Is there any way you can guarantee your weapon won't be used inappropriately? I can think of a way - get rid of the thing.

Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
Yea, lets go back to peasants and nobility while we are at it, because clearly this democracy and rights thing isn't working out, the statistics show that if only everyone was stripped of every choice and forced to take the safest path more people would be alive and we all know that is all that is important in life.
I think this is strong evidence of the true emotional connection in the argument. Losing one's guns shouldn't be tantamount to the picture you describe here. It's just a lump of metal that shoots other lumps of metal. It isn't a symbol of freedom, it's just a machine designed to kill other people.
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:12 PM   #150
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,790
Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
I don't know about you but I would not describe the story related to us as the officer starting a fight, in fact with the only thing thrown being a bag, or bucket of popcorn I would describe this as a shooting, no fighting took place.
No, there was clearly a confrontation that took place, initiated by the guy who ultimately did the shooting. They had enough of an exchange that the victim was able to throw popcorn at him.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:16 PM   #151
Ranb
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 10,243
Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
Yea I have no clue how anyone would think otherwise . . . .
Haven't you noticed that on the JREF forum is it fashionable to gloat over the misfortune of murder victims, especially if guns were involved?

Ranb
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:20 PM   #152
This is The End
 
This is The End's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,920
I can't forget to link to one of the more interesting and informative threads we have had at the JREF.

From the Science subforum; about why cell phone jammers are illegal in movie theaters and most other places.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=175216
__________________
________________________
This is The End is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:22 PM   #153
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
If missing the point was a profession, no one here could afford to pay you. Reread the actual claim.
Sure, here's your post:
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Only a dangerous criminal would want to keep property he legally purchased, has not used illegally, and would be compensated for by the government at pennies on the dollar.
And here's mine.
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Where was this incisive logic when the slaves were freed?

If that's too hyperbolic, how is that stash of dioxin in the garage? I hope its stored safely next to the asbestos.

Of course we make new laws that outlaw things that used to be legal. I'd propose that all new laws do just that. And of course someone is inconvenienced or it cost them money. Have you been following the Obamacare debate? Guns shouldn't be put on some kind of pedestal and made into holy, untouchable objects. If we, as a society, think we are better off without them, they should be gone.
So... you buy dioxin (or asbestos) legally and they outlaw it. You haven't used it illegally, and you aren't even going to get compensation. Same thing would happen with guns. And, if you keep illegal items, you are a criminal.

Did the rolly-eyes somehow mean you meant the opposite? I didn't. Was the "dangerous" the adjective that had it make sense? I think I'd call someone who owned illegal guns dangerous, as a kind of general descriptor.

Last edited by marplots; 14th January 2014 at 12:24 PM.
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:23 PM   #154
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
If you know that once reasoning fails a person can kill you, you stop the escalation at reasoning instead of stopping at force. Unless your ok with being dead.

That IS the point.
Not sure I understand what you said. Are you agreeing with me ?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:24 PM   #155
IXP
Graduate Poster
 
IXP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,395
Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Why the naive presumption that cops are the picture of mental health? Why would ANYONE assume that achieving a high rank in a police force be proof of a person's trustworthiness?
You miss my point. I am saying that no one can be trusted with guns, as illustrated by the fact that even someone well trained in how and when to use them occasionally goes berserk. The implication is that the average person would not do better. If you can suggest a 100% foolproof test to determine who should have gun, fine, but I will believe it when I see it.

IXP
__________________
"When reason sleeps, monsters are produced" -- Goya, title of etching that is my avatar
IXP is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:27 PM   #156
Biscuit
Philosopher
 
Biscuit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,929
If only this guy had decided to carry a non lethal form of self defense.
__________________
... there is no shame in not knowing. The problem arises when irrational thought and attendant behavior fill the vacuum left by ignorance.
― Neil deGrasse Tyson
Biscuit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:29 PM   #157
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,487
Originally Posted by Redtail View Post
Where does the article say she had to seperate them?
Post #62 in this thread: "I'll also point out that the shootie's wife was also hit by the bullet, as she was getting in between the two men when the gun went off."
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:30 PM   #158
Ranb
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 10,243
Originally Posted by IXP View Post
You miss my point. I am saying that no one can be trusted with guns, as illustrated by the fact that even someone well trained in how and when to use them occasionally goes berserk.
So what should the police and military replace them with if they can't be trusted?

Ranb
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:37 PM   #159
332nd
Penultimate Amazing
 
332nd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,278
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Post #62 in this thread: "I'll also point out that the shootie's wife was also hit by the bullet, as she was getting in between the two men when the gun went off."
So you made it up. Gotcha.
__________________
The poster formerly known as Redtail
332nd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2014, 12:45 PM   #160
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,849
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Prepare to be disappointed then.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/14/justic...ing/index.html

When you're done cheering over another tragedy, maybe we could have some rational discussions?

Ranb
Hey the rude punk got put in his place. That will teach people to be polite to their elders.

An armed society is a polite society he failed politeness and earned the consequences.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:15 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.