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Tags Florida incidents , shooting incidents , texting incidents

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Old 14th January 2014, 05:24 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Yeah, that's what they say every single time this happens. No matter how many gun owners shoot people, there are always some who don't, so that's OK then.
Well to be fair that would be the vast majority of them who don't.
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Old 14th January 2014, 05:26 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Post #62 in this thread: "I'll also point out that the shootie's wife was also hit by the bullet, as she was getting in between the two men when the gun went off."
Again, you are inferring something which I never said in my post.

This article indicates that the wife was hit in the hand because she was in the process of reaching for her husband. Whether this was because she was trying to separate them, pull her husband back, or reflexively attempting to protect him is anybody's guess. Not to mention, there's also the possibility that she just happened to be sitting in between the two men.

Admit it, you're speculating.
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Old 14th January 2014, 05:27 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
Exactly.

And besides, even if the shooter "felt threatened", then he should have left the theater, and stayed out of it until he could return with a manager/employee. The first response to being threatened is to get away from the threat, not to kill the guy.
Unfortunately, some people believe that "Stand Your Ground" completely abrogates one's duty to retreat. I don't believe that it does.

What this cop was engaged in was ego defense, not self defense. This was all about his self image being challenged, not any perceived physical threat posed by a guy texting or throwing popcorn.
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Old 14th January 2014, 05:28 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Be polite or get shot.
Worked in my house when I was a kid. Of course, I started off with a dozen siblings, and now there's only three of us...
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Old 14th January 2014, 05:30 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post

Paging the NRA...
I think the NRA wants to put as much distance as possible between themselves and this guy.
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Old 14th January 2014, 05:31 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Unfortunately, some people believe that "Stand Your Ground" completely abrogates one's duty to retreat. I don't believe that it does.

What this cop was engaged in was ego defense, not self defense. This was all about his self image being challenged, not any perceived physical threat posed by a guy texting or throwing popcorn.
Exactly this ^

This is what happens when some people think that monkey dancing equates to self-defense.

It's pure bull-****, and this guy should pay the price. He'll get plenty of chances to monkey dance in prison.

ETA: Or, to quote Rory Miller (who wrote the excellent article I linked above):
Quote:
“He started it,” is a grade school defense, not a legal defense.
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Old 14th January 2014, 05:38 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Yeah, that's what they say every single time this happens. No matter how many gun owners shoot people, there are always some who don't, so that's OK then.
As long as anecdotes about irresponsible gun owners continue to encompass a small minority of total gun owners, that's it in a nutshell.

You say "no matter how many" as if there have actually been so many as to actually matter. What's the phrase I'm looking for? Ah! "The abuse does not negate the use." Now, if you were to show that the abuse were the use, for the vast majority of gun owners, the shoe might be on the other foot. But you haven't, so it isn't. What's the other phrase I'm looking for? Ah! "So that's OK then."

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Old 14th January 2014, 05:41 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As long as anecdotes about irresponsible gun owners continue to encompass a small minority of total gun owners, that's it in a nutshell.

You say "no matter how many" as if there have actually been so many as to actually matter. What's the phrase I'm looking for? Ah! "The abuse does not negate the use." Now, if you were to show that the abuse were the use, for the vast majority of gun owners, the shoe might be on the other foot. But you haven't, so it isn't. What's the other phrase I'm looking for? Ah! "So that's OK then."
It matters to the people whose loved ones are killed. Or do they not have the right to pursue justice?
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Old 14th January 2014, 05:43 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well to be fair that would be the vast majority of them who don't.
Most people don't have the balls to kill someone else. The problem with guns is they short circuit a confrontation/argumernt/whatever and go straight to the lethal option.
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Old 14th January 2014, 05:47 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
Exactly this ^

This is what happens when some people think that monkey dancing equates to self-defense.

It's pure bull-****, and this guy should pay the price. He'll get plenty of chances to monkey dance in prison.

ETA: Or, to quote Rory Miller (who wrote the excellent article I linked above):

Excellent article. I am very pro-gun, and pro-concealed carry. Unfortunately, I have met a few people who carry who are unable to distinguish a threat to their life from a threat to their self image.

I would be behind any requirement that compelled CCW permit applicants to attend a lecture that addressed the legal definition of self defense.
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Old 14th January 2014, 06:22 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK View Post
The best jokes are the ones you shouldn't make.
True.

While I appreciate the old guy's frustration with nitwits who do that cell phone thing in movies, there are proper ways to deal with that.

One is to alert theater management. In our town, the local movie companies have numerous alerts on the screen about "turn off your phone" and if you go and get the usher to complain about a phone, they come and escort folks to the lobby to ask them to leave, or turn off their phone. It works.

As a retired cop, he damned well knew better. I think he'll go to jail, and deserve it.

FFS, he knows better, and knew better.
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Old 14th January 2014, 06:56 PM   #212
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I seem to recall that, in the wake of the Aurora, CO movie theater shooting, 2nd Amendment advocates made the argument that we'd be safer if movie theaters and other public spaces were not "gun-free zones" because armed citizens could defend themselves against the shooter. It seems that this case illustrates the down-side of that argument. The retired police officer did not come to the theater with the intention of killing anyone, it was apparently a moment of anger (or, as he claims, he felt that he was in danger and was defending himself).

The victim seems to be guilty of at least terrible manners, and he probably wouldn't have died if he hadn't thrown his popcorn at the man. Doesn't justify the response of course, but it was probably, technically an assault. You can't just throw food at someone.
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Old 14th January 2014, 07:00 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
Not so fast, he's been denied bond:
Quote:
"It may or may not have been popcorn," Judge Tepper said, but an unknown object "does not equal" taking out a gun.
Also, one of the witnesses clarifies an earlier question:

Quote:
Charles Cummings and his adult son were two seats away. Cummings said that when Reeves returned to the theater, there was no manager with him.

"He came back very irritated," Cummings recalled.

Voices were raised. Oulson threw a bag of popcorn at Reeves, police said. Then, the former police officer took out a .380 semi-automatic handgun and shot Oulson.
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Old 14th January 2014, 07:02 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
I would be behind any requirement that compelled CCW permit applicants to attend a lecture that addressed the legal definition of self defense.
You think a guy who was a cop for 25 years didn't know?

And that topic is already covered in every concealed carry course, it's pretty much the main point of the course.
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Old 14th January 2014, 07:13 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
You think a guy who was a cop for 25 years didn't know?

And that topic is already covered in every concealed carry course, it's pretty much the main point of the course.
Clearly the cop DIDN'T know. And as far as the main point of "the course", you're presuming that there is a requirement to take "the course". Here in WA, there is absolutely no such requirement.
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Old 14th January 2014, 07:16 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
You think a guy who was a cop for 25 years didn't know?

And that topic is already covered in every concealed carry course, it's pretty much the main point of the course.
I have to agree. Surely he had attended such a lecture, maybe even gave the lecture.

But he retired in 1993, so it was so long ago that maybe he forgot.
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Old 14th January 2014, 07:19 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Clearly the cop DIDN'T know. And as far as the main point of "the course", you're presuming that there is a requirement to take "the course". Here in WA, there is absolutely no such requirement.
I think that people break the law very often whilst being fully aware that they are doing so.
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Old 14th January 2014, 07:22 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Clearly the cop DIDN'T know.
How is that 'clear"? Isn't it far more likely he knew, but was so enraged he didn't care? Do you really think a police officer of 25 years didn't know when you can shoot in self defense?

Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
And as far as the main point of "the course", you're presuming that there is a requirement to take "the course". Here in WA, there is absolutely no such requirement.
Okay, but this was a retired cop in Florida.
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Old 14th January 2014, 07:33 PM   #219
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Just a reminder that it's federal law that allowed this guy to carry concealed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enf...ers_Safety_Act
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Old 14th January 2014, 07:37 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK View Post
The best jokes are the ones you shouldn't make.
QFT.
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Old 14th January 2014, 07:40 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
How is that 'clear"? Isn't it far more likely he knew, but was so enraged he didn't care? Do you really think a police officer of 25 years didn't know when you can shoot in self defense?


Okay, but this was a retired cop in Florida.
So what's your point, because this guy didn't heed the warning we should not bother?

I honestly don't see what your objection is. Some people ignore the "No Smoking" sign next to fuel tanks. We don't take the signs down.
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Old 14th January 2014, 07:40 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post

While I appreciate the old guy's frustration with nitwits who do that cell phone thing in movies, there are proper ways to deal with that.
And how is texting a problem? Was the screen set too bright?
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Old 14th January 2014, 07:41 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Popcorn is not a right, so ban it.
This comment succinctly sums up the guts of the issue. America has it's priorities wrong.
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Old 14th January 2014, 07:44 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Just a reminder that it's federal law that allowed this guy to carry concealed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enf...ers_Safety_Act
And this is further evidence of the (completely inappropriate) reverence we have for law enforcement officers. The badge has no magical power to grant these men and women a higher standard of ethics or a greater respect for the law. In fact, there is abundant evidence to the contrary.

Why are retired cops given this right?
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Old 14th January 2014, 07:45 PM   #225
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I think his defense actually will center around the throwing of the bag of popcorn. Something about reaching for something, throwing motion, etc.
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Old 14th January 2014, 07:48 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I think his defense actually will center around the throwing of the bag of popcorn. Something about reaching for something, throwing motion, etc.
That's if he is smart enough to listen to his lawyer. I wonder if the police union will chip in for his defense?
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Old 14th January 2014, 07:52 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
That's if he is smart enough to listen to his lawyer. I wonder if the police union will chip in for his defense?
No you don't...
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Old 14th January 2014, 08:01 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I think his defense actually will center around the throwing of the bag of popcorn. Something about reaching for something, throwing motion, etc.
I think so to, because there's quite literally no other possible argument he could make. The two made no physical contact; there was a row of seats between them.

But I think it's a fail argument. It would be a very dangerous precedent to set, to allow a mere throwing motion by someone a shooter is arguing with to establish a reasonable fear of death or serious injury and therefore a positive case for deadly self defense.

This case - this situation, is ridiculous. Completely, utterly insane.
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Old 14th January 2014, 08:05 PM   #229
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All of the gun-grabbers would look pretty stupid right now if the popcorn thrower instead decided to commit mass murder.
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Old 14th January 2014, 08:10 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I think so to, because there's quite literally no other possible argument he could make. The two made no physical contact; there was a row of seats between them.

But I think it's a fail argument. It would be a very dangerous precedent to set, to allow a mere throwing motion by someone a shooter is arguing with to establish a reasonable fear of death or serious injury and therefore a positive case for deadly self defense.

This case - this situation, is ridiculous. Completely, utterly insane.
The police use that defense, though. Reach for your wallet too quickly, or your cell phone, make a certain sort of motion, and you are liable to get several pistol magazines emptied in your direction. And no charges are likely to be filed, because you were stupid enough to "reach for something" in a tense situation.
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Old 14th January 2014, 08:13 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
Exactly.

And besides, even if the shooter "felt threatened", then he should have left the theater, and stayed out of it until he could return with a manager/employee. The first response to being threatened is to get away from the threat, not to kill the guy.
Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
Or how about he just walk out of the damn theater and not return until escorted by the appropriate personnel? Nobody forced him to return to the theater; he decided to do that, pissed off and armed with a lethal weapon. The more I think about this, the more I think that the shooter almost wanted a confrontation.

Not that I condone someone shooting someone else, but your comments seem to be out of date with the available data about what happened.

From what we know, the guys actions, prior to drawing his gun are perfectly in keeping with what any sensible person would do:

1. Person was using phone in cinema.
2. He asked person to stop using phone.
3. Person refused.
4. He left the cinema to complain to staff.
5. He returned to cinema.
6. Person confronted him about reporting the matter to staff.
7. He felt threatened by person.
8. He used his weapon for defense.

With the exception of 8 I've experienced this exact same sequence of events. He wasn't threatened until after he returned from the cinema, and barring any further evidence about the initial exchange, I can't see any reason why he should have expected any threat or further confrontation when he returned. He made a complaint and went back to his seat. Heck, when I made my complaint, the staff told me to return to the cinema, and that they'd deal with it shortly.
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Old 14th January 2014, 08:15 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I've been told an armed society is a polite society.
The people who use this phrase to support their worldview, the ones who actually long for a society where everyone is "polite" specifically because they're afraid of being blown away by bystanders if they do something somebody finds offensive, are the ones I fear the most, in a way. When I try to imagine what that world would look like, I don't like what I see. There is nothing redeeming or endearing about it.

I expect most of them will try to argue that they, personally, of course would never think about killing someone just for being "impolite" to them. They evidently just really like the idea of everyone being afraid they might do exactly that.

The deeper one thinks about the implications, the more disturbing the whole mess is, quite frankly.
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Old 14th January 2014, 08:19 PM   #233
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The whole "responsible gun owner" discussion brings back the fallacy of this idea that only some sort of mentally unhinged monster would actually shoot someone. Since 99% of people aren't mentally unhinged monsters, it therefore stands to reason that 99% of people are perfectly safe if armed.

The little problem with this lovely circle of logic is that the vast majority of those who kill and injure other people aren't mentally unhinged monsters. They're normal people, who do terrible things because of circumstance.

Anyone can be in the situation where they kill another person. The reason 99% of gun owners haven't killed anyone isn't because they're responsible, and therefore immune from wrongdoing. It's because they've been fortunate enough to avoid the circumstances that would lead to them unjustly killing someone. And believe me, those circumstances exist. There are no exceptions.
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Old 14th January 2014, 08:21 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The police use that defense, though. Reach for your wallet too quickly, or your cell phone, make a certain sort of motion, and you are liable to get several pistol magazines emptied in your direction. And no charges are likely to be filed, because you were stupid enough to "reach for something" in a tense situation.
Yes, but we're not talking about the guy reaching for something concealed on his person; we're talking about a guy throwing a nice colorful and highly visible bag of popcorn. Unless said bag had been tucked into the victim's waistband, I don't think there's a credible connection.
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Old 14th January 2014, 08:23 PM   #235
RemieV
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
The whole "responsible gun owner" discussion brings back the fallacy of this idea that only some sort of mentally unhinged monster would actually shoot someone. Since 99% of people aren't mentally unhinged monsters, it therefore stands to reason that 99% of people are perfectly safe if armed.

The little problem with this lovely circle of logic is that the vast majority of those who kill and injure other people aren't mentally unhinged monsters. They're normal people, who do terrible things because of circumstance.

Anyone can be in the situation where they kill another person. The reason 99% of gun owners haven't killed anyone isn't because they're responsible, and therefore immune from wrongdoing. It's because they've been fortunate enough to avoid the circumstances that would lead to them unjustly killing someone. And believe me, those circumstances exist. There are no exceptions.
Ummm... That seems crazy to me. I have not been in a situation where I, for instance, choked someone. Or threw a punch. Or stabbed someone. I'm sure there exists some set of circumstances somewhere wherein I could do any one of those things, but making it sound as though it's right around the corner is kind of ridiculous. I'm sure there is a circumstance wherein I could run over a pedestrian who had the right of way. I'm sure everyone could. There are no exceptions. Doesn't seem to have as much weight when you put it that way...
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Old 14th January 2014, 08:24 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
All of the gun-grabbers would look pretty stupid right now if the popcorn thrower instead decided to commit mass murder.
That is true; if a specific something that did not happen at all had, in fact, happened instead of what did in fact happen, the whole situation would be completely different.
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Old 14th January 2014, 08:31 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer View Post
And how is texting a problem? Was the screen set too bright?
Thank you for establishing that "yes, there are stupid questions."

The example is appreciated.
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Old 14th January 2014, 08:40 PM   #238
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In most theaters I've been to, the message to not talk on your phone comes immediately before the feature, AFTER the previews.

While people talking on their phones have bugged me at the theater before and I can understand why someone would complain about it, people texting never has. It's completely silent. I think some people just get enraged simply because they are conscious of the fact that someone is somehow using a phone in the auditorium, even if it's in a completely unobtrusive manner.
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Old 14th January 2014, 08:42 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by 12AX7 View Post
No way. We're told that gun owners are law-abiding*. If guns were suddenly illegal, I'm certain these millions of good, law-abiding citizens would obey the law. Right?

*Except this retired cop.






Your posts make it look like you live in fear a lot. It must be terrible to go day-to-day engulfed in the fear of a random, deadly attack.
No offense - we really don't - at least most of us I know. As we tend to note due to that assumption we do hear a lot here: I have a home and a car fire extinguisher and first aid supplies and, during hurricane season keep the tub full of water as soon as one is definitely headed our way and have several gallons of fresh water at hand, pre-make a lot of ice (have been through up to four days of no electricity with no loss of food - just the problems cooking it (but I do have a grill and other materials....) and a number of flashlights and batteries for them. No fear involved, just a desire to live normally under unusual or normal circumstances.............
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Old 14th January 2014, 08:46 PM   #240
LTC8K6
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Yes, but we're not talking about the guy reaching for something concealed on his person; we're talking about a guy throwing a nice colorful and highly visible bag of popcorn. Unless said bag had been tucked into the victim's waistband, I don't think there's a credible connection.
I didn't say it would work as a defense.
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