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Tags Florida incidents , shooting incidents , texting incidents

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Old 14th January 2014, 08:49 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
Ummm... That seems crazy to me. I have not been in a situation where I, for instance, choked someone. Or threw a punch. Or stabbed someone. I'm sure there exists some set of circumstances somewhere wherein I could do any one of those things, but making it sound as though it's right around the corner is kind of ridiculous.
These very circumstances occur hundreds of times over every single day, in every single society. We recognise that, and go to great lengths to minimise the risk.


Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
I'm sure there is a circumstance wherein I could run over a pedestrian who had the right of way. I'm sure everyone could. There are no exceptions. Doesn't seem to have as much weight when you put it that way...
We're not talking about hypotheticals here. We're talking about something that actually happens on a daily basis. We recognise the risk, and go to greath lengths to minimise it.

Then we get to guns. Many Americans wander along, not the least concerned about gun control, safe in the assurance that only a few bad apples could possibly ever be irresponsible with a gun. That's like foregoing speed limits because they're just common sense, and no responsible driver would ever do something dangerous with their car.
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Old 14th January 2014, 08:54 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
While people talking on their phones have bugged me at the theater before and I can understand why someone would complain about it, people texting never has. It's completely silent. I think some people just get enraged simply because they are conscious of the fact that someone is somehow using a phone in the auditorium, even if it's in a completely unobtrusive manner.
Although I've never felt the urge to shoot someone over this issue, I can't help but feel like maybe you've never experienced this. In the darkened space of a theatre, a visible illuminated phone screen is immensely distracting and because rod cells are 100x more sensitive to light than cone cells, an illuminated phone screen in your peripheral visions is actually more distracting than one right in front of you.

In a cinema with decent raked seating the phone of anyone seated forward of you will be plainly visible, and horribly distracting.
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Old 14th January 2014, 08:58 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
No offense - we really don't - at least most of us I know. As we tend to note due to that assumption we do hear a lot here: I have a home and a car fire extinguisher and first aid supplies and, during hurricane season keep the tub full of water as soon as one is definitely headed our way and have several gallons of fresh water at hand, pre-make a lot of ice (have been through up to four days of no electricity with no loss of food - just the problems cooking it (but I do have a grill and other materials....) and a number of flashlights and batteries for them. No fear involved, just a desire to live normally under unusual or normal circumstances.............
I would guess that most gun owners, like myself, never routinely carry a gun.

I have never felt that I needed to carry one of my pistols around with me, and I have owned guns for a long time, and live in a state where I could carry one.

I have been scared by an attempted mugging, but still never felt any need to carry a weapon.

I always have a pocket knife on me, have since I was a boy, but I carry it as a tool, not as a defensive weapon.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:00 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Many Americans wander along, not the least concerned about gun control, safe in the assurance that only a few bad apples could possibly ever be irresponsible with a gun.
You are talking out your ass about a two dimensional cartoon image that has naught to do with reality. I am used to better from you.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:10 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
These very circumstances occur hundreds of times over every single day, in every single society. We recognise that, and go to great lengths to minimise the risk.




We're not talking about hypotheticals here. We're talking about something that actually happens on a daily basis. We recognise the risk, and go to greath lengths to minimise it.

Then we get to guns. Many Americans wander along, not the least concerned about gun control, safe in the assurance that only a few bad apples could possibly ever be irresponsible with a gun. That's like foregoing speed limits because they're just common sense, and no responsible driver would ever do something dangerous with their car.
This is one of the more specious arguments I've seen, and therefore I cannot figure out how to respond.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:12 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
You are talking out your ass about a two dimensional cartoon image that has naught to do with reality. I am used to better from you.
It's an accurate representation of those who put forward the "no true responsible gun owner" argument. It's a logical fallacy, and should be dismissed as such.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:30 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
It matters to the people whose loved ones are killed. Or do they not have the right to pursue justice?
Of course they do. And so they should. Doesn't change the fact that irresponsible gun owners are a tiny minority, and no amount of Rolfe et al. harping on anecdotes will change that.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:32 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
So what's your point, because this guy didn't heed the warning we should not bother?

I honestly don't see what your objection is. Some people ignore the "No Smoking" sign next to fuel tanks. We don't take the signs down.
The objection is you use this incident to call for training on when to shoot in self defense, when this guy already had such training. And it took place in Florida, which does require a concealed carry class where self defense law is covered. Not that this guy needed one, he can carry per federal law.

IMHO ex-cops shouldn't have any such privileges, they should have to play by the same rules everyone else does.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:34 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I think so to, because there's quite literally no other possible argument he could make. The two made no physical contact; there was a row of seats between them.

But I think it's a fail argument. It would be a very dangerous precedent to set, to allow a mere throwing motion by someone a shooter is arguing with to establish a reasonable fear of death or serious injury and therefore a positive case for deadly self defense.

This case - this situation, is ridiculous. Completely, utterly insane.
Which is why the judge refused to set a bond. This guy is never going to leave jail/prison again, except to go to court.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:36 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Not that I condone someone shooting someone else, but your comments seem to be out of date with the available data about what happened.

From what we know, the guys actions, prior to drawing his gun are perfectly in keeping with what any sensible person would do:

1. Person was using phone in cinema.
2. He asked person to stop using phone.
3. Person refused.
4. He left the cinema to complain to staff.
5. He returned to cinema.
6. Person confronted him about reporting the matter to staff.
7. He felt threatened by person.
8. He used his weapon for defense.

With the exception of 8 I've experienced this exact same sequence of events. He wasn't threatened until after he returned from the cinema, and barring any further evidence about the initial exchange, I can't see any reason why he should have expected any threat or further confrontation when he returned. He made a complaint and went back to his seat. Heck, when I made my complaint, the staff told me to return to the cinema, and that they'd deal with it shortly.
We don't know he contacted the staff, just that people assumed he did. No staff were with him when he returned. He may have gone to his car to get his gun.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:40 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
The whole "responsible gun owner" discussion brings back the fallacy of this idea that only some sort of mentally unhinged monster would actually shoot someone. Since 99% of people aren't mentally unhinged monsters, it therefore stands to reason that 99% of people are perfectly safe if armed.

The little problem with this lovely circle of logic is that the vast majority of those who kill and injure other people aren't mentally unhinged monsters. They're normal people, who do terrible things because of circumstance.

Anyone can be in the situation where they kill another person. The reason 99% of gun owners haven't killed anyone isn't because they're responsible, and therefore immune from wrongdoing. It's because they've been fortunate enough to avoid the circumstances that would lead to them unjustly killing someone. And believe me, those circumstances exist. There are no exceptions.
Nonsense. This guy wasn't in some extraordinary situation, he was an ex-cop used to throwing his badge around and intimidating people. He did the same thing n the theater a few weeks prior, except didn't shoot. He got into a confrontation with a neighbor about a car stereo.

The guy was unhinged and a loose cannon. Trouble didn't find him, he looked for it and created it.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:45 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
These very circumstances occur hundreds of times over every single day, in every single society. We recognise that, and go to great lengths to minimise the risk.




We're not talking about hypotheticals here. We're talking about something that actually happens on a daily basis. We recognise the risk, and go to greath lengths to minimise it.

Then we get to guns. Many Americans wander along, not the least concerned about gun control, safe in the assurance that only a few bad apples could possibly ever be irresponsible with a gun. That's like foregoing speed limits because they're just common sense, and no responsible driver would ever do something dangerous with their car.
I know you're still clinging to that belief, but the fact is that the vast majority of gun homicides in the US are by criminals who don't legally possess their firearms. This incident made the national news because it's so unusual, not because it's the rule. There's gang shootings in Chicago nearly every single day, those get a few lines in the local news and that's it because "criminals shoot other criminals" is not news, it's dog bites man.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:49 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Not that I condone someone shooting someone else, but your comments seem to be out of date with the available data about what happened.

From what we know, the guys actions, prior to drawing his gun are perfectly in keeping with what any sensible person would do:

1. Person was using phone in cinema.
2. He asked person to stop using phone.
3. Person refused.
4. He left the cinema to complain to staff.
5. He returned to cinema.
6. Person confronted him about reporting the matter to staff.
7. He felt threatened by person.
8. He used his weapon for defense.

With the exception of 8 I've experienced this exact same sequence of events. He wasn't threatened until after he returned from the cinema, and barring any further evidence about the initial exchange, I can't see any reason why he should have expected any threat or further confrontation when he returned. He made a complaint and went back to his seat. Heck, when I made my complaint, the staff told me to return to the cinema, and that they'd deal with it shortly.
And my beef is with point #5, which is key.

He returned to the theater, without a manager/employee, clearly pissed off and armed with a lethal weapon.

If it means he misses the first few minutes of the movie in order to wait for the manager, so be it. Boo-freakin' hoo.

Especially as an ex-cop, he should have known better. Period.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:54 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Yes, but we're not talking about the guy reaching for something concealed on his person; we're talking about a guy throwing a nice colorful and highly visible bag of popcorn. Unless said bag had been tucked into the victim's waistband, I don't think there's a credible connection.
Not only that, but there's something else disturbing about the report, and either way you read it it's bad news for the shooter.

Two scenarios:

1) The shooter was hit by the bag of popcorn before he drew his weapon. This means that he must have known all he got hit with was a bag of freakin' popcorn - boo hoo - and he wasn't really hurt. Good luck making a self-defense argument based on that, because in situations like that you walk away.

2) The shooter had already drawn his weapon, had it aimed and then was hit with the popcorn bag, and he reflexively pulled the trigger. This is a big problem because it implies that the shootie may have actually been reacting in self-defense to the shooter pulling a gun, which begs the question of why the shooter pulled his weapon first? He pulled his weapon because someone was yelling at him? Again, you walk away.

I don't know which situation is accurate, but they're both really damn bad.
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Old 14th January 2014, 09:59 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
And my beef is with point #5, which is key.

He returned to the theater, without a manager/employee, clearly pissed off and armed with a lethal weapon.

If it means he misses the first few minutes of the movie in order to wait for the manager, so be it.

Especially as an ex-cop, he should have known better. Period.
Reeves' wife was presumably still in the theater sitting near the person Reeves was arguing with, so Reeves was not going to stay away very long trying to find a manager.

Heck, he might have spoken with a manager, but the manager didn't come right away.
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Old 14th January 2014, 10:02 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Reeves' wife was presumably still in the theater sitting near the person Reeves was arguing with, so Reeves was not going to stay away very long trying to find a manager.

Heck, he might have spoken with a manager, but the manager didn't come right away.
Did they ever consider, I don't know, moving seats away from the people annoying them perhaps? Duh. This is really basic stuff, and I'm amazed that I even have to bring it up.

No, it's way better to go back into the theater all pissed off and half-cocked (pardon the pun)

And I will re-iterate: you wait for the manager. It's what I have done in the past; so I miss a few minutes of the movie, big deal.
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Old 14th January 2014, 10:05 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
Did they ever consider, I don't know, moving seats away from the people annoying them perhaps? Duh.

No, it's way better to go back into the theater all pissed off and half-cocked (pardon the pun)
You can't try to fit rational thoughts and actions into an irrational person...

The manager was apparently busy with another customer, and Reeves never spoke to the manager, so that probably set Reeves up another notch on the anger scale...
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Old 14th January 2014, 10:15 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
You can't try to fit rational thoughts and actions into an irrational person...

The manager was apparently busy with another customer, and Reeves never spoke to the manager, so that probably set Reeves up another notch on the anger scale...
Ah, so there you have it. He didn't move away from the annoying couple, he never even spoke to the manager, he just decided to get more and more pissed off, return to the theater with a lethal weapon, and proceed to get into an altercation which ended up in him shooting someone to death. AND he's an ex-cop who should have known better about all of this every single step of the way.

Reeves should rot in prison. Period.
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Old 14th January 2014, 10:24 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by ApolloGnomon View Post
Yeah, one poophead is a valid sample size of the thousands of gun owners who DON'T shoot people for no reason.
If it were just one poophead, there wouldn't be so much of a problem. But it isn't. It's hundreds of poopheads, every single day.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Of course they do. And so they should. Doesn't change the fact that irresponsible gun owners are a tiny minority, and no amount of Rolfe et al. harping on anecdotes will change that.
A "tiny" minority that happens to be considerably larger than any other similar minority in the world.

Depending on which set of statistics you believe, of course.
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Old 14th January 2014, 10:45 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
Ah, so there you have it. He didn't move away from the annoying couple, he never even spoke to the manager, he just decided to get more and more pissed off, return to the theater with a lethal weapon, and proceed to get into an altercation which ended up in him shooting someone to death. AND he's an ex-cop who should have known better about all of this every single step of the way.

Reeves should rot in prison. Period.
Yeah, he was such a hothead that he couldn't wait a minute and speak to the manager.

If he thought Coulson was somehow a threat, he would not have left his wife back there with him, and he'd have made more of an effort to get to a manager, or even called the police himself.

If he weren't part of the thin blue line club, he'd be going to jail for life for sure.
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Old 14th January 2014, 10:52 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Yeah, he was such a hothead that he couldn't wait a minute and speak to the manager.



If he thought Coulson was somehow a threat, he would not have left his wife back there with him, and he'd have made more of an effort to get to a manager, or even called the police himself.
Exactly.



Quote:
If he weren't part of the thin blue line club, he'd be going to jail for life for sure.
I'm not thinking that's going to help him. And if any cop comes out in support of this a-hole, I spit upon them.
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Old 14th January 2014, 11:16 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A "tiny" minority that happens to be considerably larger than any other similar minority in the world.

Depending on which set of statistics you believe, of course.
Go on then: Bring your favorite statistics.
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Old 14th January 2014, 11:31 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Go on then: Bring your favorite statistics.
On this subject, I honestly have no favourite statistics. Both sides of the argument cherry-pick whatever statistics appear to support their position and I've yet to find any that are presented from a genuinely disinterested position.
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Old 15th January 2014, 12:11 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
What did you have in mind? I assume it would address this kind of tragedy.
Unless he had mental illness that hasn't been disclosed I'm pretty sure that a retired senior law enforcement officer is exactly the kind of person you'd want to own a gun.

This would leave a prohibition on bringing firearms into a theater which, for all we know, he may have ignored in any case or a change to the "stand your ground" laws or interpretations thereof which makes it less likely that people would feel justified in using a gun fatally in a situation like this.
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Old 15th January 2014, 12:13 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by IXP View Post
This is perfect evidence for my assertion that we should have a mental health check for gun owners - and everyone should fail it. This guy was not just a retired cop, but a captain the Tampa police department. If someone who has risen to a high rank in the police department of a major city cannot be trusted to control himself when he is in a confrontation and has a gun, why do we think anyone could?

The "No true responsible gun owner" falacy kills again.

IXP

Right.

Because cops never use violence to solve problems, never over react, never have domestic violence issues at home, et cetera.

Right?

Right???

Cops are not magical superbeings. They're ordinary humans who have been misprogrammed by constant, daily exposure to the worst human behaviour to believe that all humans are, at heart, evil, stupid, drunken, criminal dipsticks.

This touches on an issue I've thought long and hard about (because I've been exposed to some very damaged personalities), and includes not just cops but certain kinds of social workers and mental health workers, prison guards, bouncers . . . .. These people are just ordinary dumb___s like the rest of us, but are exposed on a daily basis to the most disturbing and problematic individuals in society.

A cop lives in a fog of biased sample set. Maybe when they give up the badge they should never get to have a gun, forever.

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Old 15th January 2014, 12:15 AM   #266
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Old 15th January 2014, 12:23 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Note, I will turn in none and they will find none when they come for them if they actually do.
Guns? What guns? I don't have any guns. In my state we don't have a registry. "Oh, that gun I bought at the pawnshop where you just went on a fishing expedition through the records? I sold that."

And nevermind the asparagus bed. Please don't dig there. You'll disturb the plants.
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Old 15th January 2014, 12:36 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
On this subject, I honestly have no favourite statistics.
Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
The guy may have been a responsible gun owner at one time, but a geezer with a pocket cannon is just bad news waiting to happen.
My parents are in their late 80's. Dad is a Korean and Viet vet, Mom is retired law enforcement dispatcher. They live in CA.
They both have access to numerous weapons in their house and would shoot a malevolent intruder with no regrets.
Both of them have CC permits dating to the early 60's. Neither one of them carry outside the house anymore.
Its because they feel that their lack of practice and age make them a slight hazard.
They still fear the court system if they ever have to protect themselves in their own home.
Its too bad the old guy in this case resorted to using deadly force to "protect himself".
Even though I am totally behind being able to carry CC, this incident really makes me rethink the issue.
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Old 15th January 2014, 03:00 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
What's the term for "massive solutions for minuscule problems"?
Larsenising ?
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Old 15th January 2014, 03:01 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
If you're interested in the subject, I'd recommend an article from the Wake Forest law review - Imagining Gun Control in America, Understanding the remainder problem, by Nicholas J. Johnson.

Best case scenario for compliance with an outright firearms ban using conservative estimates based on rates of complaince where possession of firearms have been severly restricted or wholly banned, approximately a 400 year supply of firearms and associated items would remain in civilian hands.
Would they be carrying them into movie theaters? I'll take a peek at it and see what the author says.
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Old 15th January 2014, 03:02 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Most people don't have the balls to kill someone else. The problem with guns is they short circuit a confrontation/argumernt/whatever and go straight to the lethal option.
Yes, of course. I was specifically answering Rolfe's post.
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Old 15th January 2014, 03:03 AM   #272
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I haven't been paying attention in awhile, has it been confirmed that he had the gun the whole time? That is, that he did not retrieve the gun from, say, his vehicle when he left to go talk to an employee.
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Old 15th January 2014, 03:17 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer View Post
And how is texting a problem? Was the screen set too bright?
That _is_ the problem of texting in dark places. The screen is always too bright.

Guys, don't do that.
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Old 15th January 2014, 03:18 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
This is one of the more specious arguments I've seen, and therefore I cannot figure out how to respond.
Which part ?

I know I've been in situations where, had I had a gun, it could've led to lethal repercussions. When I was much younger, anyway.
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Old 15th January 2014, 03:32 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
If you're interested in the subject, I'd recommend an article from the Wake Forest law review - Imagining Gun Control in America, Understanding the remainder problem, by Nicholas J. Johnson.

Best case scenario for compliance with an outright firearms ban using conservative estimates based on rates of complaince where possession of firearms have been severly restricted or wholly banned, approximately a 400 year supply of firearms and associated items would remain in civilian hands.
It's a fair analysis. I think the author has done a good job. However, the 400-year estimate has some nuances (starting on the next page). For example, long guns (he calls them "stormy-day" guns) are more likely to be hoarded than handguns, and the need to keep them out of play almost accomplishes the same purpose -tending to remove guns from active commerce.

But the main thesis is captured in the conclusion. The author rightly concludes that the "ideal" is not achievable, so long as attitudes remain the same. My contention is that the "ideal" is a talking point goal. It's still worthwhile to move along the spectrum from more to less. He doesn't deny that a full ban won't lessen the number of guns freely floating around in civilian hands, the main argument is about gun culture and those who feel the need to be armed. I believe that cultural element can be changed.

Here is the conclusion of the paper.
Quote:
Without a commitment to or capacity for eliminating the existing inventory of private guns, the supply-side ideal and regulations based on it cannot be taken seriously. It is best to acknowledge the blocking power of the remainder and adjust our gun control regulations and goals to that reality. Policymakers who continue to press legislation grounded on the supply-side ideal while disclaiming the goal of prohibit ion are deluded or pandering.
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Old 15th January 2014, 03:35 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Note, I will turn in none and they will find none when they come for them if they actually do.
Would you continue to carry in public? (Assuming, for this discussion, you do now.)

I'm asking because I'm interested if there would be any perceived effect from a national gun ban.
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Old 15th January 2014, 03:42 AM   #277
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FL Movie Theater Killer Tries to Invoke "Stand Your Ground"
You can be killed in Florida for the most trivial of offenses and the killer will get off. NRA heaven.
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If you don't think he could get off here in Florida, think again. People have gotten off using Stand Your Ground after shooting someone laying on the ground, performing gang retaliation with AK-47s which led to a 15-year old's death, threatening unarmed utility workers who walked on a yard, and killing a wife's lover in a jealous rage.
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Old 15th January 2014, 04:21 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
Exactly.

And besides, even if the shooter "felt threatened", then he should have left the theater, and stayed out of it until he could return with a manager/employee. The first response to being threatened is to get away from the threat, not to kill the guy.
And this is how we know you don't live in florida.
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Old 15th January 2014, 04:23 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As long as anecdotes about irresponsible gun owners continue to encompass a small minority of total gun owners, that's it in a nutshell.

You say "no matter how many" as if there have actually been so many as to actually matter. What's the phrase I'm looking for? Ah! "The abuse does not negate the use." Now, if you were to show that the abuse were the use, for the vast majority of gun owners, the shoe might be on the other foot. But you haven't, so it isn't. What's the other phrase I'm looking for? Ah! "So that's OK then."
So if this is the behavior of only 55% of gun owners it is noy enough as that is hardly a vast majority?
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Old 15th January 2014, 04:35 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That _is_ the problem of texting in dark places. The screen is always too bright.

Guys, don't do that.
Are you serious? And that justifies murder?
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