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Tags Florida incidents , shooting incidents , texting incidents

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Old 15th January 2014, 04:38 AM   #281
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That _is_ the problem of texting in dark places. The screen is always too bright.

Guys, don't do that.
Or else...
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Old 15th January 2014, 05:16 AM   #282
marplots
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Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer View Post
Are you serious? And that justifies murder?
It justifies aggravation. The murder is a bonus.
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Old 15th January 2014, 05:34 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
All of the gun-grabbers would look pretty stupid right now if the popcorn thrower instead decided to commit mass murder.

With popcorn?

Popcorn as a WMD. You heard it first on JREF.
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Old 15th January 2014, 05:38 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I would guess that most gun owners, like myself, never routinely carry a gun.

I have never felt that I needed to carry one of my pistols around with me, and I have owned guns for a long time, and live in a state where I could carry one.

I have been scared by an attempted mugging, but still never felt any need to carry a weapon.

I always have a pocket knife on me, have since I was a boy, but I carry it as a tool, not as a defensive weapon.
The latter I carry as do you - very useful tool as I open packages, letters and related a reasonable number of times a day. Also, though, consider it as a defensive weapon and am aware of proper placement for effect used in that way.
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Old 15th January 2014, 05:43 AM   #285
marplots
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
The latter I carry as do you - very useful tool as I open packages, letters and related a reasonable number of times a day. Also, though, consider it as a defensive weapon and am aware of proper placement for effect used in that way.
I'm anti-gun but carry a pen knife. Does this make me a hypocrite?
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Old 15th January 2014, 05:48 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I'm anti-gun but carry a pen knife. Does this make me a hypocrite?
Has anyone thrown popcorn at you in the dark?
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Old 15th January 2014, 06:01 AM   #287
marplots
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Has anyone thrown popcorn at you in the dark?
Nope. But if they do, and they need a turkey feather trimmed into a quill pen - well then, I got that covered!
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Old 15th January 2014, 06:07 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
On this subject, I honestly have no favourite statistics. Both sides of the argument cherry-pick whatever statistics appear to support their position and I've yet to find any that are presented from a genuinely disinterested position.
In all fairness, there seems to be no disinterested person looking at this topic and statistics are not developed in really useful ways on it (that I have seen). That said, as soon as it is guaranteed absolutely that the police will protect, without interfering with privacy and freedom of movement, every law abiding person (I am not nearly as concerned with the catching of murderers, muggers, rapists, kidnappers etc/ad.inf. after the fact as I am with preventing murders (etc./ad.inf.) in the first place) I will happily give up carrying weapons myself.
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Old 15th January 2014, 06:13 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Unless he had mental illness that hasn't been disclosed I'm pretty sure that a retired senior law enforcement officer is exactly the kind of person you'd want to own a gun.
Why would you want people used to routinely getting away with killing people who weren't a threat to be armed?

Like those LA cops who shot up a van with 2 older newspaper delivery women, which didn't even match the description of the male suspect's vehicle they were looking for. They were never charged with anything despite shooting at a target they never bothered to identify. Some day they'll be retired and licensed to carry in every state.
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Old 15th January 2014, 06:28 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Would you continue to carry in public? (Assuming, for this discussion, you do now.)

I'm asking because I'm interested if there would be any perceived effect from a national gun ban.
People legally carrying in public make up a tiny, insignificant percentage of gun homicides. Your solution would have no noticeable effect on homicide rates.

You know what would? Eliminating the "drug war" you have supported over and over again here.
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Old 15th January 2014, 06:29 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
FL Movie Theater Killer Tries to Invoke "Stand Your Ground"
You can be killed in Florida for the most trivial of offenses and the killer will get off. NRA heaven.
He's not getting off, he can claim anything he likes. The judge denied him bond because evidence of guilt was overwhelming.
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Old 15th January 2014, 06:32 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Why would you want people used to routinely getting away with killing people who weren't a threat to be armed?
Well personally I don't want members of the public to be armed at all or at least would like UK style gun control to be implemented in the US. As only an occasional visitor to the US I realise that I don't have any real skin in the game.

If further restrictions were going to be placed on gun ownership then I guess they might include:
  • Not having a criminal record - as far as I am aware the shooter in this case did not have one
  • Having training in the safe use of firearms - I presume that as an ex police officer the shooter had that
  • Being a fine and upstanding member of the community - as an ex police chief I'm sure the shooter would have been considered as such
  • Having no mental or physical impairments which would prevent the safe use of a firearm - as far as I am aware the shooter has none of these

If the requirements for gun ownership are being tightened IMO ex police chiefs are, as a group, at little risk of losing their licence.
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Old 15th January 2014, 06:35 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Well personally I don't want members of the public to be armed at all or at least would like UK style gun control to be implemented in the US. As only an occasional visitor to the US I realise that I don't have any real skin in the game.

If further restrictions were going to be placed on gun ownership then I guess they might include:
  • Not having a criminal record - as far as I am aware the shooter in this case did not have one
  • Having training in the safe use of firearms - I presume that as an ex police officer the shooter had that
  • Being a fine and upstanding member of the community - as an ex police chief I'm sure the shooter would have been considered as such
  • Having no mental or physical impairments which would prevent the safe use of a firearm - as far as I am aware the shooter has none of these

If the requirements for gun ownership are being tightened IMO ex police chiefs are, as a group, at little risk of losing their licence.
Like this guy...

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I AGREE
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Old 15th January 2014, 06:35 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
It's an accurate representation of those who put forward the "no true responsible gun owner" argument. It's a logical fallacy, and should be dismissed as such.
I'm wondering who puts this argument forward?

Perhaps your conflating the fact that very few gun owners ever use their guns in reckless, irresponsible, or illegal manners with some sort of "No true Scottsman" fallacy.

Perhaps you should look at it this way; Very few guns are used irresponsibly. There are over 100,000,000 guns in civilian hands here in the US, how many of them are used in crimes?
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Old 15th January 2014, 06:37 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
People legally carrying in public make up a tiny, insignificant percentage of gun homicides. Your solution would have no noticeable effect on homicide rates.

You know what would? Eliminating the "drug war" you have supported over and over again here.
Eliminating the drug war would reduce the 10-30% of murders which are estimated to relate to drugs and gangs but wouldn't eliminate them altogether. Groups who operate illegally would still battle over turf.

Somehow eliminating guns from arguments among families would also have a significant impact on murder rates.
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Old 15th January 2014, 06:41 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Like this guy...

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I AGREE
Yes he is a piece of work and I'm sure that there are others out there but if you were trying to devise a set of criteria which would be applied to try and restrict access to firearms I believe that the ones I suggested would probably be in there and in the absence of any specific knowledge to deny him, the shooter in this case would be allowed a licence.

If you're suggesting that all law enforcement officers are like the one in the linked video, I think you are over-reaching
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Old 15th January 2014, 06:47 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Eliminating the drug war would reduce the 10-30% of murders which are estimated to relate to drugs and gangs but wouldn't eliminate them altogether. Groups who operate illegally would still battle over turf.

Somehow eliminating guns from arguments among families would also have a significant impact on murder rates.
The percentage is far higher than that. In Chicago it's well over 60%, and I doubt we're atypical. Chicago just keeps better stats, most police departments don't bother.

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yes he is a piece of work and I'm sure that there are others out there but if you were trying to devise a set of criteria which would be applied to try and restrict access to firearms I believe that the ones I suggested would probably be in there and in the absence of any specific knowledge to deny him, the shooter in this case would be allowed a licence.

If you're suggesting that all law enforcement officers are like the one in the linked video, I think you are over-reaching
I'm just saying instead of an automatic lifetime concealed carry license they should have to abide by the same rules everyone else does to get a concealed carry license.
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Old 15th January 2014, 06:51 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post

A "tiny" minority that happens to be considerably larger than any other similar minority in the world.

Depending on which set of statistics you believeexclude, of course.
When people debating the gun issue say that the US has the highest rate of gun crime in the world, they seem to forget that the world includes quite a few nations outside of Europe, North America, and Australia.

Comparing the US to the World puts it much lower on the list of violent countries.
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Old 15th January 2014, 07:03 AM   #299
marplots
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
People legally carrying in public make up a tiny, insignificant percentage of gun homicides. Your solution would have no noticeable effect on homicide rates.

You know what would? Eliminating the "drug war" you have supported over and over again here.
That's an interesting way of looking at it. What percentage of homicides do you consider insignificant?

Does that comment show support for guns and drugs? What about in combination? Utopia for me doesn't consist of drugged up people running around armed, but I understand opinions differ.
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Old 15th January 2014, 07:06 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Unless he had mental illness that hasn't been disclosed I'm pretty sure that a retired senior law enforcement officer is exactly the kind of person you'd want to own a gun.
Take a person who's used to giving orders, who's used to focussing on the bad guys in society and making them behave, who's used to using force and intimidation to gain respect from average citizens, then take all that away but leave him with a deadly weapon... Nah, can't see a problem there.

And yet the vast majority of retired cops are okay. The problem is that there's a certain small percentage of people who commit crimes, and it may not be possible to predict in advance for sure who those will be and prevent them from having access to weapons, beyond the obvious categories of previous violent offenders, the dangerously mentally ill, etc. Personally, I'm willing to live in a society with a certain low percentage of random violence just as I'm willing to live a certain low percentage of car accidents, because after a certain point, there are diminishing returns in trying to get the safety level to 100%
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Old 15th January 2014, 07:19 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Like this guy...

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I AGREE
That guy's great; a police chief that deserves to get fired. Looks like that's just what will happen too. The only real surprise is that a segment of the population is so steeped in the myth and culture of guns they think his behavior is normal, or even laudable.

Quote:
Last time we checked in with him was in October, when his termination hearing was interrupted by a supporter’s loaded handgun falling out of its holster and onto the floor of the meeting room. The hearing was suspended until a more suitable location with decent security could be found.
(From: http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/lehi...chief_who.html)
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Old 15th January 2014, 07:32 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
The percentage is far higher than that. In Chicago it's well over 60%, and I doubt we're atypical. Chicago just keeps better stats, most police departments don't bother.
Of course you're atypical, you're a huge city. The drugs and gang culture that exists in Chicago simply doesn't exist in Smalltownsville USA.

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
I'm just saying instead of an automatic lifetime concealed carry license they should have to abide by the same rules everyone else does to get a concealed carry license.
The we're furiously agreeing, what I was suggesting was that whatever criteria are applied, the police chief here would be likely to pass them (unless there is a history of behaviour of which I am unaware which would disqualify him).
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Old 15th January 2014, 07:36 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Take a person who's used to giving orders, who's used to focussing on the bad guys in society and making them behave, who's used to using force and intimidation to gain respect from average citizens, then take all that away but leave him with a deadly weapon... Nah, can't see a problem there.

And yet the vast majority of retired cops are okay. The problem is that there's a certain small percentage of people who commit crimes, and it may not be possible to predict in advance for sure who those will be and prevent them from having access to weapons, beyond the obvious categories of previous violent offenders, the dangerously mentally ill, etc. Personally, I'm willing to live in a society with a certain low percentage of random violence just as I'm willing to live a certain low percentage of car accidents, because after a certain point, there are diminishing returns in trying to get the safety level to 100%
The US seems to have a very high level of deadly random violence (as opposed to the UK which according to most statistics has far more violence but much less deadly violence because fists, blunt objects and knives are less effective at killing and in the case of blunt objects and knives probably aren't as ubiquitous as guns are in the US).
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Old 15th January 2014, 07:37 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The police use that defense, though. Reach for your wallet too quickly, or your cell phone, make a certain sort of motion, and you are liable to get several pistol magazines emptied in your direction. And no charges are likely to be filed, because you were stupid enough to "reach for something" in a tense situation.
There is a double standard for police, this guy just used his pre-retirement standard.

Lets hope his buddies are not able to shore of the blue wall.

Originally Posted by marplots View Post
You really think so? That NRA slogan, "From my cold dead hands" isn't just hyperbole?

If you are right, it doesn't say anything complementary about gun owners. It paints them as radical zealots. If they are willing to fight and die to protect their guns, I want to get them unarmed even more.

I guess I have more faith in my fellow men than that scenario illustrates.
So you think the folks with authority and guns going around and forcible stealing other people's guns have the moral high ground?
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Old 15th January 2014, 07:38 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
When people debating the gun issue say that the US has the highest rate of gun crime in the world, they seem to forget that the world includes quite a few nations outside of Europe, North America, and Australia.

Comparing the US to the World puts it much lower on the list of violent countries.
But comparing to the Central African Republic, Afghanistan, Yemen or Mexico is IMO less valid than comparing it to other developed countries.
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Old 15th January 2014, 07:50 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post

A "tiny" minority that happens to be considerably larger than any other similar minority in the world.

Depending on which set of statistics you believeexclude, of course.
When people debating the gun issue say that the US has the highest rate of gun crime in the world, they seem to forget that the world includes quite a few nations outside of Europe, North America, and Australia.

Comparing the US to the World puts it much lower on the list of violent countries.
True. Here's a list of countries with homicide-by-firearm rates (per 100,000) greater than 1.0, derived from Wikipedia's table as of this morning:
Code:
Honduras             64.8
El Salvador          39.9
Jamaica              39.4
Swaziland            37.2
Guatemala            34.8
Colombia             27.1
Brazil               18.1
South Africa         17.0
Panama               16.1
Mexico               10.0
Paraguay              7.3
Nicaragua             5.9
Costa Rica            4.6
United States         3.6
Uruguay               3.4
Philippines           3.2
Argentina             3.0
Barbados              3.0
Peru                  2.6
Chile                 2.2
Montenegro            2.1
Croatia               1.1
Macedonia             1.1
I found it interesting that the rate of unintentional deaths by firearm in the United States was 0.30, which is higher than the total rate of death by firearm in a dozen countries.
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Old 15th January 2014, 07:55 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The US seems to have a very high level of deadly random violence (as opposed to the UK which according to most statistics has far more violence but much less deadly violence because fists, blunt objects and knives are less effective at killing and in the case of blunt objects and knives probably aren't as ubiquitous as guns are in the US).
The problem is that changing gun ownership levels drastically right now in the US, compared to a gradual change in mindset over the years, would create more collateral problems than it would solve. We're already suffering with Homeland Security, and I'd rather not see more of an "anything for security" mindset causing more intrusion in daily life.

Successfully removing guns, no matter what it takes, from lots of people who want to keep them would require a level of random searches, metal detectors, raids, etc. that I'd rather not live with.

Prohibition worked poorly because people were against it, and the war on drugs isn't going so well either. Non-smoking laws are working well in the last decade because people are behind them, and that's the attitude we'd need for anti-gun laws to work.
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Old 15th January 2014, 07:55 AM   #308
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Why do the talked-about self-defense shootings in Florida always seem to be against a guy carrying junk food?

Next time I'm in Florida, I'm not carrying anything more dangerous than an apple. (or an orange, since it's Florida.)
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Old 15th January 2014, 08:09 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
But comparing to the Central African Republic, Afghanistan, Yemen or Mexico is IMO less valid than comparing it to other developed countries.
Why would you think this?

Look at the US social safety net, look at the income disparity and poverty rates, look at the lack of affordable medial care, look at the levels of superstition and fundamentalist religious beliefs, look at the general level of education. The US isn't the shining first-world nation people wish to believe that it is.

I'm not saying that the US is anything close to the Central African Republic, but on the "Wealthy and liberal democracy" spectrum, it's much further down the scale than, say, Sweden or the UK.
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Old 15th January 2014, 08:10 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
When people debating the gun issue say that the US has the highest rate of gun crime in the world, they seem to forget that the world includes quite a few nations outside of Europe, North America, and Australia.

Comparing the US to the World puts it much lower on the list of violent countries.

I'm not sure who says that. Not the people I have heard.

Generally they include a qualifier such as 'Western World countries' or 'First World countries'. In which case the statement is relatively accurate.

If you are content with lowering the bar to the point of comparing the U.S. to war zones and anarchistic hellholes in order to find a level which we can compare favorably to then that's fine with me, but personally I would prefer a somewhat higher standard.
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Old 15th January 2014, 08:27 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I'm not sure who says that. Not the people I have heard.
Did you se the post to which I responded? It was not at all exceptional, in my experience.

Quote:
Generally they include a qualifier such as 'Western World countries' or 'First World countries'. In which case the statement is relatively accurate.
I agree, when the statement is qualified, it's as accurate as it's qualifiers allow.


Quote:
If you are content with lowering the bar to the point of comparing the U.S. to war zones and anarchistic hellholes in order to find a level which we can compare favorably to then that's fine with me, but personally I would prefer a somewhat higher standard.
It's no more disingenuous than comparing the US to the UK, Sweden, or Germany.
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Old 15th January 2014, 08:30 AM   #312
W.D.Clinger
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
When people debating the gun issue say that the US has the highest rate of gun crime in the world, they seem to forget that the world includes quite a few nations outside of Europe, North America, and Australia.

Comparing the US to the World puts it much lower on the list of violent countries.
I'm not sure who says that. Not the people I have heard.
joesixpack was responding to a poster (arthwollipot) who made the claim you highlighted.

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Generally they include a qualifier such as 'Western World countries' or 'First World countries'. In which case the statement is relatively accurate.
The person to whom joesixpack was responding failed to qualify his claim.
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Old 15th January 2014, 08:31 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
Or how about he just walk out of the damn theater and not return until escorted by the appropriate personnel? Nobody forced him to return to the theater; he decided to do that, pissed off and armed with a lethal weapon. The more I think about this, the more I think that the shooter almost wanted a confrontation.
I won't speculate as to the shooter's motives. I just wish more gun owners would choose less lethal protection. The variety and effectiveness of these devices as grown in the last decade to a point where they are a more effective deterrent than guns for almost every situation except someone committing premeditated murder.
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Old 15th January 2014, 09:09 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Why would you want people used to routinely getting away with killing people who weren't a threat to be armed?
Wow! Cops can routinely get away with killing people?
Do they have a quota? Are they allowed to kill more than one person a week?
Since they are allowed to routinely kill people I wonder why it makes national and world news when it does happen.
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Old 15th January 2014, 09:44 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer View Post
Are you serious? And that justifies murder?
Yes and no, respectively.

You know, maybe you should read what I say and the context of it rather than add stuff I didn't say. I was answering to your specific post, which said:

Quote:
And how is texting a problem? Was the screen set too bright?
And I explained why texting is annoying and distracting in a dark theatre. That's it. If you want to interpret that as an answer to something else, knock yourself out.
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Old 15th January 2014, 09:47 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Take a person who's used to giving orders, who's used to focussing on the bad guys in society and making them behave, who's used to using force and intimidation to gain respect from average citizens, then take all that away but leave him with a deadly weapon...
You have weird people in your police force.
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Old 15th January 2014, 09:56 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
I won't speculate as to the shooter's motives. I just wish more gun owners would choose less lethal protection. The variety and effectiveness of these devices as grown in the last decade to a point where they are a more effective deterrent than guns for almost every situation except someone committing premeditated murder.
If the story we are getting is correct, there is no reasonable response to someone throwing a popcorn bucket save taking a step back, or getting distance from the person.

At that point no force response is reasonable regardless of lethality.

Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Why do the talked-about self-defense shootings in Florida always seem to be against a guy carrying junk food?

Next time I'm in Florida, I'm not carrying anything more dangerous than an apple. (or an orange, since it's Florida.)
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Last edited by Xulld; 15th January 2014 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 15th January 2014, 10:00 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Xulld View Post

This just seems blithely ignorant of the meaning of that quote. If every man and women in that movie theater were wearing a visible holster sidearm do you think this confrontation would have occurred? (this is not a prescription, but a hypothetical question with a yes or no answer)
I think it could have occurred under those conditions. I would be prepared to raise my voice in such an argument because my thoughts would have been, who could be ******** crazy enough to unholster a weapon in an argument about noise in a crowded movie theater.
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Old 15th January 2014, 10:02 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I think it could have occurred under those conditions. I would be prepared to raise my voice in such an argument because my thoughts would have been, who could be ******** crazy enough to unholster a weapon in an argument about noise in a crowded movie theater.
No doubt, reality does not deter crazy.
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Old 15th January 2014, 10:19 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
The percentage is far higher than that. In Chicago it's well over 60%, and I doubt we're atypical. Chicago just keeps better stats, most police departments don't bother.
I'm not going to argue numbers on that, but I agree with you that legalizing some drugs and stopping the war on drugs would have a significant impact on gun violence beyond gang bangers. When people feel safer they are less likely to overreact. Reduced fear would have a ripple effect.

Quote:
I'm just saying instead of an automatic lifetime concealed carry license they should have to abide by the same rules everyone else does to get a concealed carry license.
Man, do I have to agree with you again? This hurts.

I was totally unaware of this rule until this thread. I agree that it is completely counter intuitive. The training an officer receives should not be the same as the training a civilian needs. They need to understand that they are no longer officers and are now civilians.
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