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Tags Florida incidents , shooting incidents , texting incidents

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Old 15th January 2014, 10:24 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The people who use this phrase to support their worldview, the ones who actually long for a society where everyone is "polite" specifically because they're afraid of being blown away by bystanders if they do something somebody finds offensive, are the ones I fear the most, in a way. When I try to imagine what that world would look like, I don't like what I see. There is nothing redeeming or endearing about it.

I expect most of them will try to argue that they, personally, of course would never think about killing someone just for being "impolite" to them. They evidently just really like the idea of everyone being afraid they might do exactly that.

The deeper one thinks about the implications, the more disturbing the whole mess is, quite frankly.
You don't have to dig too deep, I find it disturbing on its face. Thanks for taking the time to spell out why.
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Old 15th January 2014, 10:29 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Why would you think this?

Look at the US social safety net, look at the income disparity and poverty rates, look at the lack of affordable medial care, look at the levels of superstition and fundamentalist religious beliefs, look at the general level of education. The US isn't the shining first-world nation people wish to believe that it is.

I'm not saying that the US is anything close to the Central African Republic, but on the "Wealthy and liberal democracy" spectrum, it's much further down the scale than, say, Sweden or the UK.
Based on inequality and poverty, the UK is uncomfortably close to the U.S. though it depends on what measure you use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ncome_equality

The US does at least (generally speaking) have a functioning law enforcement community.

But OK if the US wishes to be compared to second tier nations then even then the comparisons aren't flattering.
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Old 15th January 2014, 10:49 AM   #323
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Another responsible gun owner claims another victim.
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Old 15th January 2014, 11:15 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Based on inequality and poverty, the UK is uncomfortably close to the U.S. though it depends on what measure you use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ncome_equality
Income inequality wasn't the only comparison I made, and if you look past that you'll see that the US and UK are worlds apart.

Quote:
The US does at least (generally speaking) have a functioning law enforcement community.
So does Saudi Arabia
Quote:

But OK if the US wishes to be compared to second tier nations then even then the comparisons aren't flattering.
It's not what the US wishes to be compared to, it's how the US measures up in any measure of development or poverty. I'm not trying to place some patriotic value on what is, things are as they are, there is no "flattering" when one states facts.

There is widespread poverty, unemployment, homelessness, untreated mental illness, and violence. Should we compare it to Switzerland or Mexico? We should compare it to neither. We should place it where it belongs on the spectrum of measures of development and social equality. By every measure, we are below the liberalized western democracies. The rate of violence seems to track pretty reliably with social inequality. Simply making guns illegal isn't going to result in a cessation of crime nearly as much as ending material insecurity would.

Why would you imagine otherwise?
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Last edited by joesixpack; 15th January 2014 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 15th January 2014, 11:32 AM   #325
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There is a tradition in US culture, absent from the rest of the Western World and much of the rest of the world, to sort out disputes with a gun. It is to be expected that culture will result in incidents like this happening.

The pro gun lobby have decided that all of US society (the degree to which varies from state to state) has to live with their use of guns.
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Old 15th January 2014, 11:33 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
It was during the previews. Not the movie.
My understanding as well. During the movie I can vaguely see the anger but not the shooting; ask to get the texter expelled by theater mgmt.
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Old 15th January 2014, 11:39 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by brazenlilraisin View Post
Who is more deserving of the title responsible gun owner than a retired cop...?
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Who more deserving to be regarded as a responsible gun owner but a retired cop? If not him, then who?
I would trust the average non-cop to not use excessive force much more than I would the average cop. Where is the idea coming from that being a cop makes someone responsible? There are responsible cops and irresponsible cops, just like any other profession.
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Old 15th January 2014, 11:39 AM   #328
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According to the NRA we would all be safer if many if not all in the cinema were armed. In this instance would that mean safer by shooting Oulson or Reeves or both or neither?
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Old 15th January 2014, 11:45 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by AbleSugar View Post
Wow! Cops can routinely get away with killing people?
Do they have a quota? Are they allowed to kill more than one person a week?
Since they are allowed to routinely kill people I wonder why it makes national and world news when it does happen.
You really think that because Rodney King's beating was a huge story, that it makes international news every time cops decide to needlessly beat someone? That seems to be implication of your logic there.
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Old 15th January 2014, 11:49 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Why do the talked-about self-defense shootings in Florida always seem to be against a guy carrying junk food?

Next time I'm in Florida, I'm not carrying anything more dangerous than an apple. (or an orange, since it's Florida.)
Name 3.
Okay...

Honeycrisp, Fuji, and Golden Delicious.
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Old 15th January 2014, 11:51 AM   #331
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Bad choice not going with Granny Smith.
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Old 15th January 2014, 11:52 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
As a gun threat veteran, humour is one of the ways of dealing with the sheer volume of deaths. In the year after Sandy Hook 12,042 Americans were shot dead. Here a man shoots another over a minor matter in a cinema, where according to the NRA people should be safe because there is a so called responsible gun owner there.

I wonder to what extent the rest of the world looks on at the USA and thinks "you are mad, uttering raving stupid mad bonkers" because of what people shoot each other over. It is completely senseless and deserving of ridicule.

I feel so sorry for the Americans who chose not to have a gun and how death can visit them anywhere at any time from those who chose to have a gun.
People can snap over the most mundane things. Allowing people to carry guns is a recipe for disaster when these kinds of situations arise.
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Old 15th January 2014, 11:56 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
Bad choice not going with Granny Smith.
<<overrated>>
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Old 15th January 2014, 11:56 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
Where is the idea coming from that being a cop makes someone responsible? There are responsible cops and irresponsible cops, just like any other profession.
For me, it stems from the gun lover meme that only responsible gun owners are impacted by gun laws. They will further tell you that being a responsible gun owner means you have been educated in the safe and appropriate use of guns. Something already inherent in training to be a police officer.

What the meme doesn't address is the reality that someone who is a responsible gun owner can quickly become an irresponsible gun owner. In which case had the gun legislation, which impacted responsible gun owners, been enacted, the gun violence could have been eliminated.

This case seems to be a perfect example. If the gun lover isn't packing, the texting guy doesn't die.
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Old 15th January 2014, 11:57 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
Bad choice not going with Granny Smith.
After Honeycrisp, the rest were superfluous.
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Old 15th January 2014, 12:22 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
When people debating the gun issue say that the US has the highest rate of gun crime in the world, they seem to forget that the world includes quite a few nations outside of Europe, North America, and Australia.

Comparing the US to the World puts it much lower on the list of violent countries.
Right. We should all take great comfort in the fact that we are safer here than in Somalia or South Sudan.

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Old 15th January 2014, 12:28 PM   #337
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I like a Russet
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Old 15th January 2014, 12:34 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Did you se the post to which I responded?
<snip>

Yes.
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Old 15th January 2014, 12:37 PM   #339
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I hereby declare this thread to be won by the anti-gun people, with second place to the "ex cops are the last people I would allow to carry guns" people.

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Old 15th January 2014, 12:38 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura View Post
People actually responsible, instead of people who abrogate it.
Now if we just had a way to tell who those abrogators will be.
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Old 15th January 2014, 12:38 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
joesixpack was responding to a poster (arthwollipot) who made the claim you highlighted.

<snip>

That's isn't what arth claimed. At least not the way I read it.
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Old 15th January 2014, 12:40 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I like a Russet





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Old 15th January 2014, 12:41 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by ApolloGnomon View Post
Yeah, one poophead is a valid sample size of the thousands of gun owners who DON'T shoot people for no reason.

I thought this was a critical thinking forum but i'm increasingly unimpressed by the actuality. Way to go!
No, but what about those of us who want to live in a world where if a guy has a gun hidden in his pocket like a dastardly scum, he's a criminal?

Nobody needs to have weapons in their pocket in the movies, in a store, in a school, in an office, in an airport, on a plane, on a train, on a bus. And those who do should spend many, many years in jail if caught.

What you do on your own property and in your own vehicle is your business, but you should never be allowed to conceal a weapon when not on your own property.

Open carry or carry in a locked case elsewhere. And in bad weather, when your holster is under a coat, a cap that says "ARMED" in bright orange.
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Old 15th January 2014, 12:53 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
I have no idea what he was thinking . . . or any other person who uses deadly force in response to something other than deadly force.

Does not make sense to me, maybe he is dieing of cancer and doesn't care about the consequences, who knows!?



Minus every single person who takes steps to avoid force discrepancies, and every single person who is lucky and never finds themselves in such a situation. Sure . . .


Answer the question. Can there be a deterrent more effective than the potential of death?
I get a gun to avoid a force discrepancy so my opponent gets a bigger gun for the same reason, where does this end short of all out nuclear war?
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Old 15th January 2014, 12:59 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
He's not getting off, he can claim anything he likes. The judge denied him bond because evidence of guilt was overwhelming.
Did you read the article?
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Old 15th January 2014, 01:01 PM   #346
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What makes you think it ends at nuclear war? Wasn't that what it was (and is) all about?

Rolfe.
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Old 15th January 2014, 01:02 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I think it could have occurred under those conditions. I would be prepared to raise my voice in such an argument because my thoughts would have been, who could be ******** crazy enough to unholster a weapon in an argument about noise in a crowded movie theater.
You're not alone. According to all the news articles, the closest witness to the victim in this very case said that the victim's last words were an expression of utter disbelief that the guy had just shot him. Because the idea is, in fact, completely insane.
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Old 15th January 2014, 01:08 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
No, but what about those of us who want to live in a world where if a guy has a gun hidden in his pocket like a dastardly scum, he's a criminal?

Nobody needs to have weapons in their pocket in the movies, in a store, in a school, in an office, in an airport, on a plane, on a train, on a bus. And those who do should spend many, many years in jail if caught.

What you do on your own property and in your own vehicle is your business, but you should never be allowed to conceal a weapon when not on your own property.

Open carry or carry in a locked case elsewhere. And in bad weather, when your holster is under a coat, a cap that says "ARMED" in bright orange.
Forget about the gun, just wear the cap, and get stopped and frisked three times daily.

And maybe taken to the hospital for some forced anal probing...
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Old 15th January 2014, 01:09 PM   #349
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Interestingly, it's not the first time the shooter has had an apparent psychotic break over seeing someone text in the theater. A woman reported to the local television station that last month at the same theater, the same guy noticed her texting in the theater and went all creepy on her and her husband, even after she turned off her phone in an attempt to satisfy him. On that occasion also, he left the auditorium to "find a manager", and then returned afterwards, ostensibly without one. One wonders.
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Last edited by Checkmite; 15th January 2014 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 15th January 2014, 01:11 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Xulld View Post
So you think the folks with authority and guns going around and forcible stealing other people's guns have the moral high ground?
Sometimes, but then we probably wouldn't call it "forcibly stealing." I don't actually envision a mass house-to-house confiscation. I think reasonable gun owners will obey the law and turn them in. Pretty much how we rely on a virtuous population to pay their taxes. Sure, we check once in a while, but mostly we allow folks to be honest and good citizens.

"Forcibly stealing" might come up in the context of serving a warrant for, say, a drug house and confiscating all the weapons you find. But we do that already.
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Old 15th January 2014, 01:17 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
I won't speculate as to the shooter's motives. I just wish more gun owners would choose less lethal protection. The variety and effectiveness of these devices as grown in the last decade to a point where they are a more effective deterrent than guns for almost every situation except someone committing premeditated murder.
This is spot on.

And I think we should offer alternatives to folks who have guns for personal protection. In parallel with a gun ban, I'd advocate a taser as an alternative. Yes, I understand that it isn't as effective from the gun toter's point of view, but it might sway them to obey the new laws instead of committing a felony in service to their fears.
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Old 15th January 2014, 01:20 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
You're not alone. According to all the news articles, the closest witness to the victim in this very case said that the victim's last words were an expression of utter disbelief that the guy had just shot him. Because the idea is, in fact, completely insane.
Oh yeah, if the story is accurate, Reeves is a lunatic.

Often, lunatics with pistols will flash them in an attempt to "win" the argument through intimidation. That's a sure sign that they shouldn't be allowed to own guns.

I wonder if we will hear more about incidents with Reeves?

Of course, adults arguing over texting, and throwing popcorn in the theater, is also a bit looney.

Why doesn't one side just back off in these cases? What is so important that you can't just move or even leave?

They will show the movie again later.

I don't know what the thought process is in these battles over trivial things.

I wonder what would've happened if the victim moved to another seat and called the police about Reeves?

As hot tempered as Reeves is, probably a shootout with the police.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 15th January 2014, 01:25 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There is a tradition in US culture, absent from the rest of the Western World and much of the rest of the world, to sort out disputes with a gun. It is to be expected that culture will result in incidents like this happening.

The pro gun lobby have decided that all of US society (the degree to which varies from state to state) has to live with their use of guns.
I wonder if Europe once had a similar conversation about rapiers? The same arguments, based on tradition and rights, would probably apply.

From wiki:
Quote:
The rapier began to develop around 1500 as the Spanish espada ropera, or "dress sword". The espada ropera was a cut-and-thrust civilian weapon for self-defense and the duel, while earlier weapons were equally at home on the battlefield.
Ah history and the curse of having to repeat it.
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Old 15th January 2014, 01:28 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
This is spot on.

And I think we should offer alternatives to folks who have guns for personal protection. In parallel with a gun ban, I'd advocate a taser as an alternative. Yes, I understand that it isn't as effective from the gun toter's point of view, but it might sway them to obey the new laws instead of committing a felony in service to their fears.
You know you're employing circular logic right?

Gun owners are bad for not wanting to give up their guns/not thinking making guns illegal would be just, therefore a law needs to be passed making guns illegal so when gun owners don't all comply with the law they find unjust it will prove that they're bad for not wanting to give up their guns, being criminals now. You're relying on your law making your opponents criminals in order to prove the law is needed.

It's a nice way to show the opposition is criminals for disagreeing as long as you squint at it and don't look too hard.
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Old 15th January 2014, 01:32 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
I get a gun to avoid a force discrepancy so my opponent gets a bigger gun for the same reason, where does this end short of all out nuclear war?
Unfortunately, it works the other way too. If we remove all guns to avoid a force discrepancy between armed and unarmed people, the one with the most force will be the one with a knife. Then remove that, and it will be the one with brass knuckles or mace. Remove that, and it will be the one who's physically strongest and fastest, but there's not much we can do about that.
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Old 15th January 2014, 01:38 PM   #356
marplots
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You know you're employing circular logic right?

Gun owners are bad for not wanting to give up their guns/not thinking making guns illegal would be just, therefore a law needs to be passed making guns illegal so when gun owners don't all comply with the law they find unjust it will prove that they're bad for not wanting to give up their guns, being criminals now. You're relying on your law making your opponents criminals in order to prove the law is needed.

It's a nice way to show the opposition is criminals for disagreeing as long as you squint at it and don't look too hard.
Let's see if I can make it more elliptical than straight out circular.

1) Pass a law banning guns
2) Expect good citizens to follow the law
3) Prosecute those who do not.

It's probably just as circular as passing any law, right? I mean, there's a new law about mandatory health insurance. Pretty much the same set up. Those who do not follow the new law will, and should, be dunned for it. They may be practicing civil disobedience for political reasons, but one of the consequences of civil disobedience is you pay the penalty for committing the crime.

No one is "bad" for not wanting to follow a law. We only refer to them as criminals when they actually break the law. I might not care for that stop sign down the block, and I might feel strongly that it impedes my travel and is unnecessary, but my wants and desires only become an infraction when I blow through the stop sign.
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Old 15th January 2014, 01:47 PM   #357
tyr_13
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Let's see if I can make it more elliptical than straight out circular.

1) Pass a law banning guns
2) Expect good citizens to follow the law
3) Prosecute those who do not.

It's probably just as circular as passing any law, right? I mean, there's a new law about mandatory health insurance. Pretty much the same set up. Those who do not follow the new law will, and should, be dunned for it. They may be practicing civil disobedience for political reasons, but one of the consequences of civil disobedience is you pay the penalty for committing the crime.

No one is "bad" for not wanting to follow a law. We only refer to them as criminals when they actually break the law. I might not care for that stop sign down the block, and I might feel strongly that it impedes my travel and is unnecessary, but my wants and desires only become an infraction when I blow through the stop sign.
So you withdraw saying that people resisting such a law is evidence the law is needed?

You've been pretty clear on the premise that people who want to keep guns are bad. Sorry, but not using the word 'bad' doesn't actually alleviate that. You want your opponents to be criminals for something that is currently not criminal and using your desire for it be criminal as a way to tar them. It's the same faulty reasoning as calling your desire 'theft'.
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Old 15th January 2014, 01:51 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Interestingly, it's not the first time the shooter has had an apparent psychotic break over seeing someone text in the theater. A woman reported to the local television station that last month at the same theater, the same guy noticed her texting in the theater and went all creepy on her and her husband, even after she turned off her phone in an attempt to satisfy him. On that occasion also, he left the auditorium to "find a manager", and then returned afterwards, ostensibly without one. One wonders.
And that, I think, will seal his fate.
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Old 15th January 2014, 01:54 PM   #359
tsig
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Just a reminder that it's federal law that allowed this guy to carry concealed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enf...ers_Safety_Act
Except:

Although LEOSA preempts state and local laws, there are two notable exceptions: "the laws of any State that (1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property" (such as a bars, private clubs, amusement parks, etc.),
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Old 15th January 2014, 01:55 PM   #360
tsig
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I think his defense actually will center around the throwing of the bag of popcorn. Something about reaching for something, throwing motion, etc.
Well if the popcorn was buttered he might have a case, theater butter is toxic.
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