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Old 6th March 2018, 11:52 AM   #41
Jim_MDP
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
... However, it would be prudent to at least start developing some counter-measures now just in case such weapons are developed in the future.
For a "dirty bomb" terror/extortion missile?

Mid-air capture at Mach 2 plus?

Better call Scorpion!
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Old 6th March 2018, 11:58 AM   #42
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Da, maybe time to send red mommy bear back to stone age ...
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Old 6th March 2018, 12:10 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Concerned about what, though? You mentioned countermeasures as a point of concern, but now you acknowledge that countermeasures do exist. Are you still concerned about not having countermeasures for cruise missiles?

And what exactly would Trump say, to allay your concerns (whatever they are)?
While some of the counter-measures do exist, I seriously doubt that they have been looked at in regards to what Putin was describing.

As to Trump, the best thing that Trump could say would be that he is quitting and going back to his gold plated penthouse in New York city forthwith.

Failing that, he could at least provide the authority and direction to carefully analyze what Putin said to at least determine if it is feasible or not in the near future. Also, Trump could authorize a series of war games to get an idea of how such weapons could actually be used.

Neither of these things should be too terribly costly or difficult for the military to accomplish. After all, this is one of the sorts of things that they are supposed to be doing.
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Last edited by Crossbow; 6th March 2018 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 6th March 2018, 01:25 PM   #44
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
While some of the counter-measures do exist, I seriously doubt that they have been looked at in regards to what Putin was describing.
Putin is describing a supersonic cruise missile with a novel propulsion system. Cruise missile countermeasures do, in fact, exist.

Unless you're talking about something to safely contain the exposed reactor, after the missile is shot down. In which case, perhaps we can start worrying about that once the Russians demonstrate a working prototype of the engine.

Quote:
Failing that, he could at least provide the authority and direction to carefully analyze what Putin said to at least determine if it is feasible or not in the near future. Also, Trump could authorize a series of war games to get an idea of how such weapons could actually be used.

Neither of these things should be too terribly costly or difficult for the military to accomplish. After all, this is one of the sorts of things that they are supposed to be doing.
Meet the 3M-54 Kalibr: It's a supersonic Russian cruise missile. Between October 2015 and October 2016, the Russians launched over fifty of them in the Syrian conflict.

The Russians claim it can carry a nuclear warhead. Did it concern you at all that President Obama did not "provide the authority and direction to carefully analyze" the feasibility of this? Did it concern you at all that President Obama did not "authorize a series of war games to get an idea of how such weapons could actually be used"?

Or how about the DF-26? It's a Chinese IRBM. They claim it can carry a hypersonic, maneuverable, nuclear warhead. It was originally expected to be in service in 2013, and is likely to have been in service since late 2015. Again, did it concern you much that President Obama didn't publicly order feasibility studies and wargames in response?

I mean, these are actual real nuclear weapons. Their existence was not simply announced in a propaganda cartoon. They have gone through observable processes of design, test, and manufacture. Where's the corresponding Presidential angst that you seem to expect?

And it's not like nuclear weapons employment is a mysterious new subject. The study of their use has been ongoing for decades. Bombs, cruise missiles, ballistic missiles--all of these have been considered. Even torpedoes, mortars, land mines, and anti-aircraft missiles have been studied. Hell, the US studied the usage of exactly this kind of weapon. Right now, the Pentagon probably knows more about it than the Kremlin does. And that's without the President having to lift a finger or say a single word.
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Old 6th March 2018, 01:55 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Do people think ICBMs are stoppable (with any degree of consistency or reliability) now?

Considering that an ICBM's "bus" follows a suborbital flightpath at an altitude of ~1,000 km at ~23,000 km/h, and that the the reentry vehicles/warheads it releases have a terminal velocity of Mach 13-17, no currently deployed ABM systems can stop either the "bus" or the warheads.

The only way would be to destroy the ICBM during the ascending phase, which is why their launch sites (either static or mobile) are located out of reach of whatever existing ABM system.

Only in lalaland can ICBMs be stopped.
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Old 6th March 2018, 02:08 PM   #46
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I count at least three currently-deployed systems capable of intercepting ICBMs outside of their launch phase.

Oh, and some Aegis interceptors can also intercept ICBMs in midcourse and terminal phases of flight.

ETA: Actually, that may not be true. The wikipedia article is pretty emphatic that Aegis cannot intercept ICBMs. But the section on the Block IV interceptors talks about both terminal phase and exoatmospheric interceptions. On the other hand, the Aegis system is certainly capable of intercepting cruise missiles.

Last edited by theprestige; 6th March 2018 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 6th March 2018, 02:26 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I count at least three currently-deployed systems capable of intercepting ICBMs outside of their launch phase.

Oh, and some Aegis interceptors can also intercept ICBMs in midcourse and terminal phases of flight.

ETA: Actually, that may not be true. The wikipedia article is pretty emphatic that Aegis cannot intercept ICBMs. But the section on the Block IV interceptors talks about both terminal phase and exoatmospheric interceptions. On the other hand, the Aegis system is certainly capable of intercepting cruise missiles.
AFAIK, none of the currently existing ABM missiles can reach the 1,200 km altitude of an ICBM "bus" and none can reliably intercept a Mach 10+ incoming warhead.
The Soviet/Russian system was just a nuclear "spray and pray" umbrella-like system (currently replaced).
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Old 6th March 2018, 02:51 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Alphaba View Post
AFAIK, none of the currently existing ABM missiles can reach the 1,200 km altitude of an ICBM "bus" and none can reliably intercept a Mach 10+ incoming warhead.
The Soviet/Russian system was just a nuclear "spray and pray" umbrella-like system (currently replaced).
I don't see why the speed of the warhead is relevant. And being unreliable is very different from only existing in "lalaland".
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Old 6th March 2018, 03:17 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Of course making claims of super advanced technology that turns out to be a bunch of lies is old Russian custom.....
They didn't fake tsar bomba. Or if they did, they somehow sold the US on playing along.

And really, everything after that is sorta pointless. It's MAD even if only one side launches.

"Oh, you can vaporize the entire world three times over? Well, we can vaporize it four times over!"
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Old 6th March 2018, 06:34 PM   #50
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Isn't Donny-boy Pooty's "unstoppable nuclear weapon"?
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Old 6th March 2018, 07:11 PM   #51
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Did the Navy abandon their rail gun project? I'm still waiting.

Have that Mach 5 thing shoot down these dreaded warheads.
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Old 6th March 2018, 07:12 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
And really, everything after that is sorta pointless. It's MAD even if only one side launches.

"Oh, you can vaporize the entire world three times over? Well, we can vaporize it four times over!"
Depends on how much is launched, and at what targets, doesn't it?

Half a dozen low yield precision nukes to decapitate North Korea would hardly vaporize even that troubled peninsula, let alone the entire world. Especially if nobody else launches in response.
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Old 6th March 2018, 08:56 PM   #53
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Good rant: LETTER TO AMERICA - AN OPPORTUNITY AND A WARNING. THE CHOICE IS YOURS.

Originally Posted by Russell "Texas" Bentley
[...] Russia is not your enemy. We seek only cooperation for the mutual benefit of all Mankind. But since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1990, 28 years ago, the USA, NATO and the EU have sought to plunder and rule the world. They have been the enemies, the enslavers, the destroyers of the world. No reality based person can dispute that fact. There is no place that the US or NATO has gone into in the last 4 decades that is better off. Not one. In fact, there is no place that NATO or the US have intervened, (usually against international law) that hasn't become a failed state, hell on Earth for the citizens, and a genuine danger to the surrounding regions and the world. It is the US government and NATO, and the people who own and control them, who are the threats and the enemies to the future of Humanity. But their days of disregarding international law and destroying weaker nations with impunity are now over, as of March 1st, 2018.

The good people of America now have a huge opportunity, and a huge challenge. Russia spends less than one tenth what the USA spends on military and defense, but their military and weapons are superior in every measurable way. The waste, corruption and abject venality of the US military industrial complex has wasted trillions on weapon systems that are now literally useless, and which have left the US military (and by extension the American people) defenseless before the power of Russia's weapons, which are designed and produced to be effective rather than profitable. The opportunity is this - the USA can now reduce its military spending (the highest in the world) by 90% and still be safer than you are right now, spending almost a trillion dollars a year on useless weapons and a defenseless military. Safer, because as soon as the American People take control of their government enough to reduce your spending to ONLY as much as Russia spends, Russia will stop having reason to see the USA as an existential threat. The less you spend, the safer you will be. The more you spend, the more likely World War Three, which will see you as the instigators and the losers. This gives the USA, starting as soon as you want, an extra $800 billion, per year, to spend on things that have actual worth, things you really need. Health care, free college education, fixing the rotting economy and infrastructure that are daily becoming more of a threat to the American people than Russia has ever been. [...]

When the American People stand up to their oppressors, rid themselves of their parasites, the people of Russia and of the world will stand with you, will applaud and support you. All good people in the world are on the same side. Those who oppress and exploit you do the same to us. Your enemies are our enemies, and ours are yours. Stand up, as we have, throw off your chains and illusions, see for yourself who your real enemies are, and together let's defeat them, before they destroy the world and all that is good in it. Only you can stop them without a global war. If you don't, there will be war, and we will stop them. But those who live in the USA will suffer the fate of those who start and lose a world war. It is not a fate to be desired.

America, that time has now come for you. The choice is stark and clear, and you must make it soon.
Either bring your rulers to heel, stop the war they are bent on starting, and reap the benefits of stopping the most egregious and wasteful scam in history, or do nothing, allow your parasites to consume you, and let them lead you and your children and your nation to Armageddon and a fiery death in a war that you now know you can never win. The choice is yours. And so is the responsibility.

The author is as his callsign suggests from Texas, has fought on the side of the opolchenie against the Ukrainian putsch regime and is now living in the Donetsk People's Republic.
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Old 6th March 2018, 10:14 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Did the Navy abandon their rail gun project? I'm still waiting.
Unfortunately it appears they have. They are, however, interested in using the munition developed for the rail gun, the hypervelocity projectile (HVP), since it can also be fired from conventional artillery, and at much higher velocities than conventional munitions.
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Old 6th March 2018, 11:44 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Cruise missile countermeasures are already a thing.

Ballistic missile countermeasures--for all phases of flight--are also already a thing, by the way. Not a guaranteed thing, but the technology does keep improving. So there's that.
No way you can shoot them all down. Not this century.
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Old 7th March 2018, 12:22 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What is the purpose of annoying a population during mutually assured destruction?
The point is such an attack does not warrant a full-blown nuclear response. It doesn't even kill anyone, not directly anyway. Will you destroy the world over an attack that only causes moderate property damage?

McHrozni
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Old 7th March 2018, 04:42 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The point is such an attack does not warrant a full-blown nuclear response. It doesn't even kill anyone, not directly anyway. Will you destroy the world over an attack that only causes moderate property damage?

McHrozni
Yeah. The world that has reached the state where flying around a cruise missile spewing radiation for months is not the same world that would launch a full nuclear war.
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Old 7th March 2018, 07:23 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
No way you can shoot them all down. Not this century.
That's pretty much what I said.
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Old 8th March 2018, 10:12 AM   #59
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https://twitter.com/DPRK_News/status/969277497664778240
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Old 8th March 2018, 10:33 AM   #60
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At Mach 3 pulling a steady 5g turn the diameter of the circle is about 40 kilometres. For a missile to 'circle over a city at Mach 3' it would need to pull several tens of g.
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Old 8th March 2018, 11:10 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Putin is describing a supersonic cruise missile with a novel propulsion system. Cruise missile countermeasures do, in fact, exist.

Unless you're talking about something to safely contain the exposed reactor, after the missile is shot down. In which case, perhaps we can start worrying about that once the Russians demonstrate a working prototype of the engine.



Meet the 3M-54 Kalibr: It's a supersonic Russian cruise missile. Between October 2015 and October 2016, the Russians launched over fifty of them in the Syrian conflict.

The Russians claim it can carry a nuclear warhead. Did it concern you at all that President Obama did not "provide the authority and direction to carefully analyze" the feasibility of this? Did it concern you at all that President Obama did not "authorize a series of war games to get an idea of how such weapons could actually be used"?

Or how about the DF-26? It's a Chinese IRBM. They claim it can carry a hypersonic, maneuverable, nuclear warhead. It was originally expected to be in service in 2013, and is likely to have been in service since late 2015. Again, did it concern you much that President Obama didn't publicly order feasibility studies and wargames in response?

I mean, these are actual real nuclear weapons. Their existence was not simply announced in a propaganda cartoon. They have gone through observable processes of design, test, and manufacture. Where's the corresponding Presidential angst that you seem to expect?

And it's not like nuclear weapons employment is a mysterious new subject. The study of their use has been ongoing for decades. Bombs, cruise missiles, ballistic missiles--all of these have been considered. Even torpedoes, mortars, land mines, and anti-aircraft missiles have been studied. Hell, the US studied the usage of exactly this kind of weapon. Right now, the Pentagon probably knows more about it than the Kremlin does. And that's without the President having to lift a finger or say a single word.
Did the Russians or Chinese put out state media propaganda that showed these missiles being used against the US during the Obama era? I don't know if that changes things, but it does seem a bit like Putin feels a bit less restrained as of late.
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Old 8th March 2018, 11:15 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The point is such an attack does not warrant a full-blown nuclear response.
It absolutely does. I think the thread of MAD is the only reasonable response to the existence of such a weapon.
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Old 8th March 2018, 11:33 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Did the Russians or Chinese put out state media propaganda that showed these missiles being used against the US during the Obama era? I don't know if that changes things, but it does seem a bit like Putin feels a bit less restrained as of late.
I don't think it matters. But the Russians and the Chinese (and the Americans) do regularly publish propaganda showing their wunderwaffen in action. Sometimes the enemies are more specifically identifiable than others, but the message of course is always clear.

As for Putin feeling less restrained--less restrained than what? Less restrained than when he annexed Crimea and invaded eastern Ukraine? Less restrained than when he orders the assassinations of rogue agents? Less restrained than when he allied with Assad in Syria?

This video was made for internal consumption. To me that seems like Putin probably feels a bit more constrained as of late. You don't unleash propaganda cartoons on your own populace out of a free and easy sense of your position.
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Old 8th March 2018, 11:36 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The point is such an attack does not warrant a full-blown nuclear response. It doesn't even kill anyone, not directly anyway. Will you destroy the world over an attack that only causes moderate property damage?

McHrozni
So what is the supposed response to nuclear terror weapons?
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Old 8th March 2018, 11:40 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So what is the supposed response to nuclear terror weapons?
Wait for the cancer, apparently.
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Old 8th March 2018, 05:52 PM   #66
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It's a game of nuclear Whack-A-Mole. Smack down NK and Russia pops up the same day. Smack Putin on the noggin and up will pop Iran. Tough talk - all baloney. These countries are happy to use their posturing to please their masses. I will sleep well tonight.
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Old 8th March 2018, 06:13 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't think it matters. But the Russians and the Chinese (and the Americans) do regularly publish propaganda showing their wunderwaffen in action. Sometimes the enemies are more specifically identifiable than others, but the message of course is always clear.

As for Putin feeling less restrained--less restrained than what? Less restrained than when he annexed Crimea and invaded eastern Ukraine? Less restrained than when he orders the assassinations of rogue agents? Less restrained than when he allied with Assad in Syria?

This video was made for internal consumption. To me that seems like Putin probably feels a bit more constrained as of late. You don't unleash propaganda cartoons on your own populace out of a free and easy sense of your position.
I notice you avoid the topic of Russian Interfence in US..and other countries elections...reflect badly on Dear Leader in the White House.
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Old 8th March 2018, 06:17 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I notice you avoid the topic of Russian Interfence in US..and other countries elections...reflect badly on Dear Leader in the White House.
Lol. Don't let your hardon for Trump get in the way of you posting on topic in this thread.
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Old 10th March 2018, 02:15 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
US had nuclear powered bomber program. It only had one problem. Lot of radiation pollution along the fly-path. That might not be an issue in nuclear tipped cruise missile.
If you consider how good Tomahawk missile is .. it's possible that the proposed Russian missile would be not much bigger, at least slightly supersonic, and with practically unlimited range. Could be scary.
The 1950's called, they want their bad ideas back

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supers...titude_Missile
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Old 27th December 2019, 02:44 PM   #70
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Russia's Hypersonic weapon has been "deployed"...

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/...142922561.html

They claim a speed 27 times Mach 1, or roughly 20,000 miles per hour. Is that even possible through the atmosphere?
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Old 27th December 2019, 03:07 PM   #71
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In theory at least a hypersonic nuclear-powered missile could be launched and put in a stand-by series of random courses that would make it difficult to shoot down. The owner would thereby be able to maintain a number of subsequent options that are not available to ballistic missiles. Such as changing the targets, spreading the timing of the attacks over days or weeks, etc. For example a nuclear cruise missile with multiple warheads could launch a strike on military sites first, then hold back before escalating to civilian populations depending on the enemy’s response.

Of course that depends on how difficult it actually will be to shoot down such a devise, versus taking out a ballistic mussel submarine, etc. I suspect no one really knows right now.
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Old 27th December 2019, 03:14 PM   #72
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My experience as a now old(er) dodger is that the real capacities of a weapon are usually less important than its perceived capacities. Hype does count if the opposing side cannot completely dismiss the claims; they will feel the need to accept the claims they cannot definitively disprove and take them into account in their own military and diplomatic planning.

Remember the “missile crisis” that helped elect JF Kennedy and lead to an enormous unnecessary missile build up in the USA?
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Old 27th December 2019, 03:24 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
My experience as a now old(er) dodger is that the real capacities of a weapon are usually less important than its perceived capacities. Hype does count if the opposing side cannot completely dismiss the claims; they will feel the need to accept the claims they cannot definitively disprove and take them into account in their own military and diplomatic planning.
The problem with this claim is that the US has already developed its own independent body of knowledge, both about hypersonic flight and about nuclear jet engines. So they're not forced to develop contingency plans from a position of ignorance.
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Old 27th December 2019, 03:43 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The problem with this claim is that the US has already developed its own independent body of knowledge, both about hypersonic flight and about nuclear jet engines. So they're not forced to develop contingency plans from a position of ignorance.
True but there is always uncertainty. There is always some ignorance. I believe Project Pluto determined that nuclear powered missiles could be created in practice; subsequent technological progress allows for a variety of Russia’s claims to be within a grey zone of possible. Sure, many claims are highly unlikely but others are just possible enough they need to be planned for as if they might be true. Worst case scenarios are important parts of military planning.
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Old 27th December 2019, 04:09 PM   #75
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Its good to know that the current crop of populist world leaders are showing how silly we were to worry about terrorism which only kills a few thousand people each decade and bring back the threat of global annihilation like we used to have in the good old days.

Nothing says safety like a mentally unstable old man in the grips of paranoia with his fingers over the 'kill everyone everywhere' button.
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Old 27th December 2019, 11:31 PM   #76
ceptimus
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Russia's Hypersonic weapon has been "deployed"...

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/...142922561.html

They claim a speed 27 times Mach 1, or roughly 20,000 miles per hour. Is that even possible through the atmosphere?
That's faster than orbital velocity, so the missile would need to develop downward 'lift' to keep it in the atmosphere and prevent it being thrown out into space.

To give some idea of the heating effect of 20,000 mph flight, consider that the space shuttle used to re-enter at about 17,000 mph, and the returning Apollo moon missions at about 25,000 mph.

In short, the 20,000 mph claim is either a reporting error or bull faeces. There's no point trying to fly that fast through the atmosphere, and you'd burn up in short order if you did.

Last edited by ceptimus; 27th December 2019 at 11:33 PM.
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Old 28th December 2019, 03:12 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Of course making claims of super advanced technology that turns out to be a bunch of lies is old Russian custom.....
... or totally true, if "super advanced" is redefined as "eventually able to get out of the Red Square on its own".
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Old 28th December 2019, 04:07 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
In short, the 20,000 mph claim is either a reporting error or bull faeces.

The claim that the Russians are speaking of Mach 27 is made by AP printed by Al Jazeera. It is nowhere to be found in the protocol of the meeting in which the deployment was announced. The (Russian) weapon buffs at SouthFront speak of Mach 20 and say this about the functionality:

Originally Posted by SF
Avangard gliding vehicle

The development of a future ICBM with a brand-new payload type in the form of a gliding vehicle was the real technological breakthrough. The testing of Avangard has been successfully concluded. According to available information, Avangard can reach the top speed of Mach 20 and is one of the possible payload options for Sarmat.

The warhead can fly in dense layers of the atmosphere over intercontinental distances, while performing evasive dog-legs both horizontally (up to several thousand kilometers) and vertically. Specialists assess that the Avangard has not only an aerodynamic control system but also a propulsion system to be able to perform such maneuvers.

In spite of flying in a plasma cloud, the warhead can receive signals from its command center. It used to be an impossible task, since plasma blocks radio waves. Another challenge that was successfully overcome was the problem of heat insulation. It cannot be ruled out that the Avangard uses new generation high-temperature ceramic composites that use silicon carbide, capable of withstanding temperatures of up to 2,000 C. By mid-March it was announced that the first Avangard carriers would become the UR-100N UTTKh (SS-19 Stiletto) ICBMs that will most likely become part of the RS-24 Yars strategic missile system. About 30 of these missiles were delivered from Ukraine in the early ‘00s to cover natural gas debts. After the Soviet break-up, they were stored un-fueled. Once Sarmat is adopted, it too will carry Avangard warheads. The Russian MOD already signed a contract for serial delivery of Avangards, and they will enter line service in the near future.
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Last edited by Childlike Empress; 28th December 2019 at 04:14 AM.
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Old 28th December 2019, 04:22 AM   #79
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The thing reaches Mach 5. And that's plenty.
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Old 28th December 2019, 04:23 AM   #80
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More Putinist bollocks.
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