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Tags assault incidents , Chicago incidents , Jussie Smollett

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Old 30th January 2020, 01:20 PM   #121
William Parcher
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Jussie Smollett seeking dirt on Chicago's ex-Top Cop Eddie Johnson in legal fight with city.

He quit the position because he was found to be drunk driving and so you people need to drop that lawsuit against me and drop everything else against me as well.
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Old 30th January 2020, 02:07 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Chicago Sun Times
The bodybuilding brothers targeted in Jussie Smollett’s malicious prosecution lawsuit took a shot at the actor in a new court filing as they asked a judge to toss his complaint.

Abimbola and Olabinjo Osundairo have claimed they helped fake a racist and homophobic attack on the actor in January 2019. But Smollett’s lawyers have said their statements to police were self-serving and designed to avoid prosecution.

Now, the brothers’ attorney says Smollett got what he wanted out of the whole thing, regardless of how it played out.

“Smollett’s scheme was accomplished,” Gloria Virginia Schmidt Rodriguez wrote in Wednesday’s filing. “He has gained national and international fame while avoiding any admission of guilt for his conduct against the City of Chicago; he voluntarily forfeited his bond as consideration for some unknown form of quid pro quo agreement with the State’s Attorney’s Office; and he received widespread media attention for his personal agenda against President Donald J. Trump and for his perceived lack of enthusiasm by Fox Studios in paying attention to his purported hate mail.”...
https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2...e-accomplished
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Old 30th January 2020, 02:25 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Jussie Smollett seeking dirt on Chicago's ex-Top Cop Eddie Johnson in legal fight with city.

He quit the position because he was found to be drunk driving was fired by the mayor after he lied to her and so you people need to drop that lawsuit against me and drop everything else against me as well.
...

On a related note, I know of two ladies that won't be getting my vote on March 17. Kim Foxx, the prosecutor that ruined this case, is on the ballot for re-election.

Quote:
Tuesday, January 28, 2020 3:02PM

CHICAGO (WLS) -- Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Elizabeth Warren announced her endorsement of Cook County State's Attorney Kim Foxx Tuesday.
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Old 11th February 2020, 03:10 PM   #124
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Breaking and developing news...


Jussie Smollett indicted by special prosecutor in Chicago

Originally Posted by ABC News
Former "Empire" actor Jussie Smollett was indicted Tuesday by a special prosecutor in Chicago investigating allegations he bogusly reported being the victim of a January 2019 hate-crime attack, officials said.

Smollett, 37, was indicted by special prosecutor Dan Webb, who was appointed by a Cook County judge to continue looking into his false allegations after the Cook County State’s Attorney Office dropped all charges against the actor, a source close to Smollett told ABC news.

The Cook County Clerk's Office confirmed to ABC station WLS-TV in Chicago that Smollett had been indicted...
https://abcnews.go.com/US/empire-act...ry?id=68918453
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Old 11th February 2020, 03:14 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by WGN News
WGN has confirmed he’s been indicted on six counts, among them disorderly conduct.

No warrant has been issued. He’s due in court Feb. 24...
https://wgntv.com/2020/02/11/jussie-...cial-prosector
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Old 11th February 2020, 05:07 PM   #126
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One one for good measure...
https://abc7chicago.com/5921989/?fbc...0RqKLJ6XI2k3X4
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Old 11th February 2020, 06:05 PM   #127
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We all know he is guilty. But I had supposed the special prosecutor was looking in to misconduct on the side of the state's attorney? And maybe the judge?
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Old 11th February 2020, 06:34 PM   #128
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If it took six months to indict this cat, the prosecutor is special indeed.
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Old 14th February 2020, 09:16 AM   #129
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In which a compelling argument is made that disbelieving Jussie Smollett is both racist and homophobic.

/s
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Old 14th February 2020, 09:47 AM   #130
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Bernie Sanders is now endorsing Kim "Charges Dropper" Foxx for her reelection.
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:00 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Bernie Sanders is now endorsing Kim "Charges Dropper" Foxx for her reelection.
Damn. Now I need to decide if this jackassery is a deal-breaker for my vision of a Sanders administration versus a GOP senate.
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Old 17th February 2020, 11:02 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post

That article's from a year ago. At the time, some people were believing Smollett's account, and some were questioning it due to incongruities or inconsistencies with the increasing amount of available evidence.

There were also some who were disbelieving it for racist or homophobic reasons. For instance, speculating without evidence that Smollett was coving up an attempted drug deal or gay liaison gone wrong. Disbelieving the account for racist or homophobic reasons was indeed racist or homophobic.
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Old 17th February 2020, 11:04 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Bernie Sanders is now endorsing Kim "Charges Dropper" Foxx for her reelection.
OK. Is there a point to that other than small connection to this case?
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Old 17th February 2020, 11:07 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
That article's from a year ago. At the time, some people were believing Smollett's account, and some were questioning it due to incongruities or inconsistencies with the increasing amount of available evidence.

There were also some who were disbelieving it for racist or homophobic reasons. For instance, speculating without evidence that Smollett was coving up an attempted drug deal or gay liaison gone wrong. Disbelieving the account for racist or homophobic reasons was indeed racist or homophobic.
Neither of those speculations strike me as racist or homophobic.

It's not heterophobic to speculate that a straight person is spinning a wild "alibi" to cover up a heterosexual liaison gone wrong. You can certainly support gay pride, and still speculate that a gay man might wish to keep a particular hookup under wraps for some reason.
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Old 17th February 2020, 11:14 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"For some reason, African Americans, we were oddly quiet. We were so quiet about this **** that the gay community started accusing African American community of being homophobic for not supporting him. But what they didn't understand is that we were supporting him with our silence. Because we understood that this ****** was clearly lying."
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Old 17th February 2020, 11:20 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Reading the couple of first pages of this thread (part 1) is quite interesting. The "doubters" sound much more reasonable than their opposition.

Also amusing, MikeG, who was probably the most ardent pro-Smollet poster, left a day or two after he was shown to be wrong, without ever following up on this:

Originally Posted by MikeG
I'm going to quote this crap back at you when the attackers are convicted. It's going to be fun seeing you try to justify it.
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Last edited by Belz...; 17th February 2020 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 18th February 2020, 12:41 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Reading the couple of first pages of this thread (part 1) is quite interesting. The "doubters" sound much more reasonable than their opposition.

Also amusing, MikeG, who was probably the most ardent pro-Smollet poster, left a day or two after he was shown to be wrong, without ever following up on this:
Feets don't fail me now.
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Old 18th February 2020, 01:16 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
That article's from a year ago. At the time, some people were believing Smollett's account, and some were questioning it due to incongruities or inconsistencies with the increasing amount of available evidence.

There were also some who were disbelieving it for racist or homophobic reasons. For instance, speculating without evidence that Smollett was coving up an attempted drug deal or gay liaison gone wrong. Disbelieving the account for racist or homophobic reasons was indeed racist or homophobic.
This again? There was evidence for those with eyes to see it from almost the very beginning that something about his story smelled fishy. What it actually turned out to be was even weirder than the wildest speculations. (Personally, I never suspected or suggested either a drug deal or a "liaison gone wrong" because neither of those seemed to quite fit with what I was seeing. It seemed more likely that the whole thing was made up from whole cloth to me.)

Speculations per se with only limited evidence short of conclusive proof aren't necessarily because of racism or other bigotry. If a straight white man reported a similarly fishy tale I think I would have been equally suspicious.
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Old 18th February 2020, 05:22 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
That article's from a year ago. At the time, some people were believing Smollett's account, and some were questioning it due to incongruities or inconsistencies with the increasing amount of available evidence.

There were also some who were disbelieving it for racist or homophobic reasons. For instance, speculating without evidence that Smollett was coving up an attempted drug deal or gay liaison gone wrong. Disbelieving the account for racist or homophobic reasons was indeed racist or homophobic.
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Old 18th February 2020, 05:23 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Reading the couple of first pages of this thread (part 1) is quite interesting. The "doubters" sound much more reasonable than their opposition.
Basically, in any big (or biggish) breaking news story it is best to withhold judgement until a clearer picture emerges. As to crime stories, it is interesting how strong our instinctive attitudes are - I am a low level crime buff and have felt this force in myself: you reflexively tend to feel strong sympathy or distrust and are irrationally certain of the truth even with access to just very few and selective facts on a particular case. This tendency is something that one really must fight against and remain empirical, detached and sceptical.
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Old 18th February 2020, 06:50 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
That article's from a year ago. At the time, some people were believing Smollett's account, and some were questioning it due to incongruities or inconsistencies with the increasing amount of available evidence.

There were also some who were disbelieving it for racist or homophobic reasons. For instance, speculating without evidence that Smollett was coving up an attempted drug deal or gay liaison gone wrong. Disbelieving the account for racist or homophobic reasons was indeed racist or homophobic.
Any one who didn't have serious doubts from the very start of this story should avoid using the words critical and thinking in the same sentence for the rest of their lives.
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Old 18th February 2020, 10:33 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Reading the couple of first pages of this thread (part 1) is quite interesting. The "doubters" sound much more reasonable than their opposition.

Also amusing, MikeG, who was probably the most ardent pro-Smollet poster, left a day or two after he was shown to be wrong, without ever following up on this:
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Any one who didn't have serious doubts from the very start of this story should avoid using the words critical and thinking in the same sentence for the rest of their lives.
Definitely there are many teachable moments for skeptics-to-be in the original thread. But those would would benefit the most from the exercise are least likely to adjust their way of thinking about these sorts of things.
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Old 18th February 2020, 11:58 AM   #143
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I'm a little disappointed that Myriad is doubling down on the "it was reasonable to believe it at first" narrative.
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Old 18th February 2020, 12:06 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm a little disappointed that Myriad is doubling down on the "it was reasonable to believe it at first" narrative.
I think this is too uncharitable a reading of his post, though I have some issues with it.

Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
That article's from a year ago. At the time, some people were believing Smollett's account,
He seems to be silent on whether or not it was reasonable to believe at first. That's suggestive, but he doesn't actually say it was. Perhaps he should have explicitly said it wasn't reasonable, but failing to say something true isn't the same as saying something that is false.

Quote:
and some were questioning it due to incongruities or inconsistencies with the increasing amount of available evidence.
I have no problem with this part.

Quote:
There were also some who were disbelieving it for racist or homophobic reasons. For instance, speculating without evidence that Smollett was coving up an attempted drug deal or gay liaison gone wrong. Disbelieving the account for racist or homophobic reasons was indeed racist or homophobic.
The problem I have here is that, while it may describe some people, it doesn't describe most of the people who disbelieved Smollett. Focusing on a fringe with bad motives when most skeptics were motivated correctly by the facts of the case seems to miss the important lessons of this case. I'm sure a few people were motivated by racism, but they don't really matter.
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Old 18th February 2020, 12:11 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The problem I have here is that, while it may describe some people, it doesn't describe most of the people who disbelieved Smollett. Focusing on a fringe with bad motives when most skeptics were motivated correctly by the facts of the case seems to miss the important lessons of this case. I'm sure a few people were motivated by racism, but they don't really matter.
- "I don't believe this is a true story."
- "Oh, so you're a racist, then? Black man surely made hoax, right?"
- "Turns out I was right to be suspicious."
- "Yeah but you were right for racist reasons so it doesn't count"

Sounds rather circular, does it not?
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Old 18th February 2020, 12:15 PM   #146
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I admire the chutzpah of those who guessed correctly whether an event for which they had no evidence happened or not in congratulating themselves for their excellence in skepticism. Had it turned out the other way I'm certain they'd be admitting failure. In guessing, because that's all anybody was able to do. One day perhaps far in the future internet randos will stop confusing their reading of news with making them qualified investigators present on the scene with witnesses testimony and physical evidence in hand.

Shall we take guesses on when that'll be?
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Old 18th February 2020, 12:30 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I admire the chutzpah of those who guessed correctly whether an event for which they had no evidence happened or not in congratulating themselves for their excellence in skepticism.
That's a bit uncharitable, though. Although I made no comment about the truth or falseness of Smollett's claims at the time, many pointed out to suspicious facts about the events as reason behind their suspicions.

I say let them gloat.

Quote:
Had it turned out the other way I'm certain they'd be admitting failure.
Yeah, humans are what they are. Some people would, mind you.
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Old 18th February 2020, 12:35 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I admire the chutzpah of those who guessed correctly whether an event for which they had no evidence happened or not in congratulating themselves for their excellence in skepticism.
You're wrong, TM. There was in fact evidence from the start that the story was a fake. There have been a lot of fake hate crimes in recent years, and many of them share common features, features which showed up in the Smollett case. Were these features proof that Smollett was lying? No. But they were evidence that he was lying. And as the truth has come out, we have seen that these features were exactly what they appeared to be: evidence of a fraud.

The odds were in favor of it being a fraud from the start. That some people still refuse to understand that doesn't make the people who DID see it for what it was somehow wrong.
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Old 18th February 2020, 12:36 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're wrong, TM. There was in fact evidence from the start that the story was a fake. There have been a lot of fake hate crimes in recent years, and many of them share common features, features which showed up in the Smollett case. Were these features proof that Smollett was lying? No. But they were evidence that he was lying. And as the truth has come out, we have seen that these features were exactly what they appeared to be: evidence of a fraud.

The odds were in favor of it being a fraud from the start. That some people still refuse to understand that doesn't make the people who DID see it for what it was somehow wrong.
"It sounded like a fraud"? Lemme give you a ribbon for skepticism.
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Old 18th February 2020, 12:37 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"It sounded like a fraud"? Lemme give you a ribbon for skepticism.
I don't understand your reaction. We make judgments based on observations and experience all the time. Why is this case fishy?
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Old 18th February 2020, 12:38 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The odds were in favor of it being a fraud from the start. That some people still refuse to understand that doesn't make the people who DID see it for what it was somehow wrong.

How can you assess odds in a case like this?
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Old 18th February 2020, 12:40 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't understand your reaction. We make judgments based on observations and experience all the time. Why is this case fishy?
The last three customers who walked in the door were obese. Does that make the next customer more likely to obese? Because "the odds" apparently hinge on events being observed by the same party and not by actual causal relationships?
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Old 18th February 2020, 12:41 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
How can you assess odds in a case like this?
Subjectively, of course. It's an individual exercise. How did you determine the story was likely to be true, when you first heard the details? Etc.
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Old 18th February 2020, 12:49 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Subjectively, of course. It's an individual exercise. How did you determine the story was likely to be true, when you first heard the details? Etc.
Ziggurat's wording implies it's not an individual exercise since he's chastising people for still refusing to believe that.
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Old 18th February 2020, 12:55 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Ziggurat's wording implies it's not an individual exercise since he's chastising people for still refusing to believe that.
Yes it does. Is this really the fight you want to fight, though?

Was there ever a point where you thought this story was plausible?
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Old 18th February 2020, 01:04 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The last three customers who walked in the door were obese. Does that make the next customer more likely to obese? Because "the odds" apparently hinge on events being observed by the same party and not by actual causal relationships?
I'm not sure that answers my question. When event X has feature A, I've observed that it's often a hoax; this event Y has feature A, therefore it might be a hoax. I don't see why this is an issue for you.

True, I thought some of the posters in that thread called it a bit early, but once they explained their reasons it seemed to make sense.

In fact, calling the people who thought it was a hoax racists is using the exact same logic. So why was it ok to do so but not the thing that was being criticised i.e. doubting Smollett's story?
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Old 18th February 2020, 01:05 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"It sounded like a fraud"? Lemme give you a ribbon for skepticism.
Is the concept of pattern recognition really that alien to you? Or is that you don't recognize the patterns involved in fake hate crimes yourself, so you don't know how others can recognize them?
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Old 18th February 2020, 01:16 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Is the concept of pattern recognition really that alien to you? Or is that you don't recognize the patterns involved in fake hate crimes yourself, so you don't know how others can recognize them?
Deciding that a selection of events is a series that has a pattern is begging a question. I pull three books at random from a bookshelf. Shall I deduce a pattern between them so I can predict characteristics of the next book?
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Old 18th February 2020, 01:17 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm not sure that answers my question. When event X has feature A, I've observed that it's often a hoax; this event Y has feature A, therefore it might be a hoax. I don't see why this is an issue for you.

True, I thought some of the posters in that thread called it a bit early, but once they explained their reasons it seemed to make sense.

In fact, calling the people who thought it was a hoax racists is using the exact same logic. So why was it ok to do so but not the thing that was being criticised i.e. doubting Smollett's story?
As I'm not one of the people calling anyone racist I can't answer your question. Ask them, instead.
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Old 18th February 2020, 01:19 PM   #160
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes it does. Is this really the fight you want to fight, though?
Fight? I don't even know yet if I'll disagree with Zig's answer. He might know something about studies in to prior cases that match a profile or something.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Was there ever a point where you thought this story was plausible?
Yes, but I'd go with possible rather than plausible since plausible is a loaded word. Why should have made my mind up one way or the other at all based on early reports?

I'm pretty sure my first post in the original thread was when I first became suspicious and it was due to realizing the similarity between one of his political videos and the crime. That's a hardly a show stopper since someone could have done that on purpose. In fact, right now, I can't think of any point of suspicion that couldn't be addressed by assuming the crime was committed by someone who knew him.

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