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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 14th February 2020, 08:35 PM   #2361
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
No its tied to biology.

Go for your life dudes thinking they are a chick socially gender wise or vice versa, but realism and fairness means sport goes with biology
Sports are not going with biology. It has been socially this whole time.

https://www.bustle.com/articles/1412...edition-photos

These covers are not about chromosomes.
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Old 14th February 2020, 08:41 PM   #2362
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This thread is not about what a magazine no one reads anymore puts on its cover
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Old 14th February 2020, 08:42 PM   #2363
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3 Connecticut high school girls are suing over a policy that allows trans athletes to compete in girls' sports

Originally Posted by CNN
Three Connecticut high school girls, represented by their mothers, have filed a lawsuit over a policy which allows transgender athletes to participate in sports based on their gender identity.

Selina Soule, Chelsea Mitchell, Alanna Smith and their mothers claim in their lawsuit the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference's (CIAC) policy is a violation of the Title IX act -- which bars discrimination on the basis of sex.

The policy, they say in the suit, results in "boys displacing girls in competitive track events in Connecticut."

CIAC said in a statement after the lawsuit that the policy was implemented in 2013 and is compliant with both state and federal law.

In a statement earlier this week, the American Civil Liberties Union said it would seek to join the lawsuit to defend the interests of transgender student athletes.

"Efforts to undermine Title IX by claiming it doesn't apply to a subset of girls will ultimately hurt all students and compromise the work of ending the long legacy of sex discrimination in sports," Chase Strangio with the ACLU said in a statement...
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/us/tr...uit/index.html
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Old 14th February 2020, 08:45 PM   #2364
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I already answered that question before you asked it.
I still don't understand your point. Nothing stops a D1 athlete from playing at a D3 school. Why are you talking so much about female athletes with different body chemistry? If it is about competition, how are you revealing your preferences that you care about competition?
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Old 14th February 2020, 08:49 PM   #2365
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
This thread is not about what a magazine no one reads anymore puts on its cover
Let's step back for a second. Let's say that this is about competitiveness and protecting it via sex segregation as a rule.

Does that mean you are dealing with a situation where women are not able to compete against other women because of the rule?
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Old 14th February 2020, 09:02 PM   #2366
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Let's step back for a second. Let's say that this is about competitiveness and protecting it via sex segregation as a rule.



Does that mean you are dealing with a situation where women are not able to compete against other women because of the rule?
It means that biological dudes who think they are gender female and are trans women should be respected and called she etc. But they are not biologically female so biological females should not have to compete with them in biological female sports categories
8
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Old 14th February 2020, 09:03 PM   #2367
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What are you doing about same sex sandbagging and why doesn't it apply if both sexes competed?
As Ziggurat pointed out, same sex sandbagging isn't a problem when there are only two divisions: male and female. There is no lower division to sandbag into.

When there are separate divisions, the lower prestige of the less competitive division tends to discourage sandbagging. Something interesting in the case of sex segregated sports is the women's sports can still be high prestige, which I think is a good thing. So there is some motivation for men who are not at the top of the men's division but still highly skilled athletes to enter women's divisions where they could outcompete the female competitors. They can achieve levels of prestige that they couldn't in the men's divisions.

That's not currently a problem in the sex segregated system, but it's a potential problem with a women's division that is open to male athletes.
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Old 14th February 2020, 09:12 PM   #2368
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
As Ziggurat pointed out, same sex sandbagging isn't a problem when there are only two divisions: male and female. There is no lower division to sandbag into.

When there are separate divisions, the lower prestige of the less competitive division tends to discourage sandbagging. Something interesting in the case of sex segregated sports is the women's sports can still be high prestige, which I think is a good thing. So there is some motivation for men who are not at the top of the men's division but still highly skilled athletes to enter women's divisions where they could outcompete the female competitors. They can achieve levels of prestige that they couldn't in the men's divisions.

That's not currently a problem in the sex segregated system, but it's a potential problem with a women's division that is open to male athletes.
I would say you are underselling how difficult it is to live as a trans person.

Being a man pretending to be a woman for personal gainis such a different level of difficulty that bosom buddies couldn't keep it up for more than a season. And that was one of America's greatest actors.
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Old 14th February 2020, 09:15 PM   #2369
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It means that biological dudes who think they are gender female and are trans women should be respected and called she etc. But they are not biologically female so biological females should not have to compete with them in biological female sports categories
8
Whatever benefits these biological females get from being successful in their female sport, those benefits seem tied to gender and not biology. It seems to create a problem by excluding women from that.
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Old 14th February 2020, 09:45 PM   #2370
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As much as you continue to not see it gender is not biology and has zero relevance imho
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Old 14th February 2020, 09:48 PM   #2371
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Put it this way . A bloke may rightly feel they should have been female so chose female as a gender.

All good. Who cares.

Sports are based on biological sex. Not gender.

Play with your biological sex. Bloke. Or don't. Your choice.
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Old 14th February 2020, 11:29 PM   #2372
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
3 Connecticut high school girls are suing over a policy that allows trans athletes to compete in girls' sports
Bit late to the party, mate, that's what the discussion's been about for several days.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Sports are based on biological sex.
Sorry mate, but that's wrong.

Surely you recall Laurel Hubbard at the Commonwealth Games less than 2 years ago? Or the mountain biker, Kate Weatherley, who knocked a load of actual women out of Olympic selection?

Touch of poetic justice that Weatherley's currently out of action with a broken neck.
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Old 15th February 2020, 12:03 AM   #2373
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Bit late to the party, mate, that's what the discussion's been about for several days.







Sorry mate, but that's wrong.



Surely you recall Laurel Hubbard at the Commonwealth Games less than 2 years ago? Or the mountain biker, Kate Weatherley, who knocked a load of actual women out of Olympic selection?



Touch of poetic justice that Weatherley's currently out of action with a broken neck.
Fair call. But both games have kind of turned into a parody of themselves
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Old 15th February 2020, 05:44 AM   #2374
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Put it this way . A bloke may rightly feel they should have been female so chose female as a gender.

All good. Who cares.

Sports are based on biological sex. Not gender.

Play with your biological sex. Bloke. Or don't. Your choice.
Part of our difference is you think the person is making a choice. Most transgender advocates are trying to express that just like sexuality, it isn't a choice.
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:17 AM   #2375
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I would say you are underselling how difficult it is to live as a trans person.

Being a man pretending to be a woman for personal gainis such a different level of difficulty that bosom buddies couldn't keep it up for more than a season. And that was one of America's greatest actors.
It doesn't matter what difficulties trans face outside of sport.

The ONLY thing that sport authorities should be concerned about is the unfair advantage male trans presenting as female would have physically.
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:19 AM   #2376
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Part of our difference is you think the person is making a choice. Most transgender advocates are trying to express that just like sexuality, it isn't a choice.
Ironically, they are correct. If you are born with a man's body you are male. If you are born with a woman's body you are female. That will never change, period.
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:24 AM   #2377
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Ironically, they are correct. If you are born with a man's body you are male. If you are born with a woman's body you are female. That will never change, period.
And it turns out you have been wrong this whole time. It was never as you described. Just as people didn't realize sexuality was not a choice.
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Old 15th February 2020, 07:40 AM   #2378
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Part of our difference is you think the person is making a choice. Most transgender advocates are trying to express that just like sexuality, it isn't a choice.
While you may or may not be right about what he thinks regarding a transgender's choice regarding all that trans stuff, it's at best marginally relevant to the question at hand, which is where a transgirl ought to compete.

Competing in sports certainly is a choice. If the rules allow a person to compete in either the boys' division or the girls' division, then which division they are compete in is also a choice. If the rules specify that a person must compete in a specific division, then that person can compete in that division, or not compete at all, which is also a choice.

To decide whether a transgirl ought to be eligible to compete against girls, or against boys, or whatever rules ought to apply regarding their participation, it is necessary to ask what the purpose of sport is in the first place. Why would a school district expend taxpayer dollars to hold an event where people can come watch young people run, and give a prize and make a great fuss over the person who crosses the finish line first? The answer to that question might shed some light onto the question of what sort of divisions there ought to be, and where Andraya Yearwood and Terry Miller ought to compete.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 15th February 2020 at 07:42 AM.
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Old 15th February 2020, 07:57 AM   #2379
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
While you may or may not be right about what he thinks regarding a transgender's choice regarding all that trans stuff, it's at best marginally relevant to the question at hand, which is where a transgirl ought to compete..
Transgirls are girls. Just as redhead girls are girls.
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Old 15th February 2020, 08:18 AM   #2380
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm not saying they are separate. It is because they are intertwined that all women should be allowed to compete in women's sport.
You are incoherent on this, because you also say that who a woman is is unconnected to biology. These are contradictory positions. You cannot just pick and choose between them.

Quote:
There are those who do not check the social box but check the other box, let them in too.
No. First, biology matters, especially in sports. Second, one of the problems here is that there are no standards for what "checking the social box" even means.
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Old 15th February 2020, 08:19 AM   #2381
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Transgirls are girls. Just as redhead girls are girls.
And ringworms are worms.

Except they aren't.
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Old 15th February 2020, 08:21 AM   #2382
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You are incoherent on this, because you also say that who a woman is is unconnected to biology. These are contradictory positions. You cannot just pick and choose between them.
It is biology just as sexual orientation is biology. But it isn't sex organs. The functioning of the brain is biology.
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Old 15th February 2020, 09:10 AM   #2383
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is biology just as sexual orientation is biology. But it isn't sex organs. The functioning of the brain is biology.
First, it isn't like sexual orientation. We know that because a lot of trans people detransition.

Furthermore, if you want to claim that it's really biological, then there should be an objective test to demonstrate this. But there isn't. There is no objective test to determine whether someone is trans or not. Nor do trans activists want any such test to be developed.

And lastly, even to the extent that it is biological, you haven't established that it's what you claim it is, namely that trans women are really women. The voices that schizophrenics hear may be a biological phenomenon, but that doesn't mean the voices are real voices.
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Old 15th February 2020, 09:18 AM   #2384
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
First, it isn't like sexual orientation. We know that because a lot of trans people detransition.

Furthermore, if you want to claim that it's really biological, then there should be an objective test to demonstrate this. But there isn't. There is no objective test to determine whether someone is trans or not. Nor do trans activists want any such test to be developed.

And lastly, even to the extent that it is biological, you haven't established that it's what you claim it is, namely that trans women are really women. The voices that schizophrenics hear may be a biological phenomenon, but that doesn't mean the voices are real voices.
What is the objective test for proving sexual preference?
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Old 15th February 2020, 09:37 AM   #2385
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Penile Plethysmography?
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Old 15th February 2020, 10:32 AM   #2386
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Good point - the Paralympics have so many divisions it's impossible to keep up.

I see no reason why the IAAF can't establish a couple of divisions for trans both ways as well as intersex athletes.
They can totally do that. The problem is that trans-specific divisions defeat the whole purpose of transitioning in the first place.
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Old 15th February 2020, 10:37 AM   #2387
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Transgirls are girls. Just as redhead girls are girls.
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What is the objective test for proving sexual preference?
You ask a lot of questions and you make a lot of statements, but you don't answer a lot of questions.

If you were ever inclined to actually critically examine your own beliefs, you might include a question about what the purpose of a high school athletic competition is.
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:06 AM   #2388
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
You ask a lot of questions and you make a lot of statements, but you don't answer a lot of questions.

If you were ever inclined to actually critically examine your own beliefs, you might include a question about what the purpose of a high school athletic competition is.
I already answered your question.
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:14 AM   #2389
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I already answered your question.
Not only have you not answered it, you haven't even referenced it.

Technically, though, I didn't even ask it. I've learned better. I suggested you ask yourself.

So, I suppose it is possible that you have indeed answered it, but you haven't shared your answer. Well, if you do share your answer, I promise to read it, and I would probably even note how I think it informs the answer to the question of where someone like Andraya Yearwood ought to compete.
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:18 AM   #2390
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Not only have you not answered it, you haven't even referenced it.

Technically, though, I didn't even ask it. I've learned better. I suggested you ask yourself.

So, I suppose it is possible that you have indeed answered it, but you haven't shared your answer. Well, if you do share your answer, I promise to read it, and I would probably even note how I think it informs the answer to the question of where someone like Andraya Yearwood ought to compete.
I answered it for myself as you suggested. It is a nice offer that I will not be exercising today, thank you.
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:47 AM   #2391
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Ironically, they are correct. If you are born with a man's body you are male. If you are born with a woman's body you are female. That will never change, period.
I try to limit how much I delve into the man/woman male/female thing because...oye.

Because I don't get what "man's body" means. If "man" is held strictly as a "male human" then it's kind of a circular statement. Holding more to the idea of "man/woman" as a social identity with expectations attached, then it's imposing a limited set of definitions on this person that has been determined by a single data point.

So I cautiously offer a rephrasing.

If you are born with a biologically male body*, you are declared "male" on official documents. If you are born with a biologically female body, you are declared "female" on official documents.


*what constitutes a male or female body biologically is, of course, a growing area of study. The issue of relevance here is that, uh-oh, a lot of those objectively verifiable features develop after birth. I'm not too familiar with delivering babies so maybe there's more to making the determination of sex at birth to put on the certificate there is, but my rough understanding of development tells me that short of bombarding every newborn with radiation in a battery of tests, there's not a whole lot to work with.

It might be worthwhile to change the field on that entry to something like "initial determination of biological sex." Really, it just comes down to getting people to stop presuming from that initial determination what "proper" expectations the child should be made to conform to.

This all tracks back to the continued underlying issue: there are (at least) 4 different factors of identity going on and society demands that you conform to just a handful of possible alignments.

These are not "my thoughts" but what I take to be some low-level agreed-upon "truisms":

A heterosexual woman dressing plain and being career-minded is "odd, quirky."

A butch lesbian can likely get away with being a "man" in every way except biologically.

Metrosexuals are probably just confused gay dudes.

In that same vein, I do have some concern over the issue of "my 8 year old boy acts like a girl, so I should get them on hormones and 'support them through this struggle' as a good parent!" There are a whole host of other ways to "support" a child not aligning to one specific mixture of identities than by immediately determining which of the other "approved" combinations they must end up as.

ETA: But just as quickly again, some over-adherence to a specific solution to a range of conditions is not an argument that our understanding of how to access certain facilities and activities should remain unyielding as our knowledge grows.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 15th February 2020 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 15th February 2020, 12:54 PM   #2392
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I answered it for myself as you suggested. It is a nice offer that I will not be exercising today, thank you.
Fair enough.
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Old 15th February 2020, 03:37 PM   #2393
BrooklynBaby
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Science says there are only two sexes. Hope this helps.

The Wall Street Journal has issued a throwdown to the gender lobby, insisting in an op-ed Thursday that sex is binary and there is no “spectrum.”

“In humans, reproductive anatomy is unambiguously male or female at birth more than 99.98% of the time,” note biologists Colin M. Wright and Emma N. Hilton. “The evolutionary function of these two anatomies is to aid in reproduction via the fusion of sperm and ova.”

“No third type of sex cell exists in humans, and therefore there is no sex ‘spectrum’ or additional sexes beyond male and female. Sex is binary,” they assert.

https://www.breitbart.com/science/20...le-and-female/

Here's the WSJ link, but they have a pay wall.

The Dangerous Denial of Sex

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-dan...ex-11581638089
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Old 15th February 2020, 03:51 PM   #2394
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What is the objective test for proving sexual preference?
You might be able to make one by measuring arousal while watching images. But it doesn't matter, I know of no reason we need one. Subjective tests suffice for any reason I would ever want to know someone's sexual orientation for.
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Old 15th February 2020, 03:58 PM   #2395
Delphic Oracle
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Science says there are only two sexes. Hope this helps.

The Wall Street Journal has issued a throwdown to the gender lobby, insisting in an op-ed Thursday that sex is binary and there is no “spectrum.”

“In humans, reproductive anatomy is unambiguously male or female at birth more than 99.98% of the time,” note biologists Colin M. Wright and Emma N. Hilton. “The evolutionary function of these two anatomies is to aid in reproduction via the fusion of sperm and ova.”

“No third type of sex cell exists in humans, and therefore there is no sex ‘spectrum’ or additional sexes beyond male and female. Sex is binary,” they assert.

https://www.breitbart.com/science/20...le-and-female/

Here's the WSJ link, but they have a pay wall.

The Dangerous Denial of Sex

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-dan...ex-11581638089
First: Breitbart.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Second, holy *********, "science says" there's exactly two categories in which 99.98% of people fit?

Uh, it kinda seems like, no matter how small that 0.2% might seem, uh, if those in the 0.2% are apparently neither male nor female, then more than 2 ******* possibilities exist!

The authors of this garbage you're sharing can't even be internally consistent.

Plus "reproductive anatomy", "unambiguous", and "at birth" are doing massive amounts of heavy lifting, there.

ETA: "No third type of sex cell" is some real garbage that has already been sufficiently addressed by others in describing a whole range of conditions that have results on biological sexual development, to say nothing of even more complicated issues like gene expression.

Why do biological twins have different cognition, mannerisms, and self-identity?

If I could watch the development of a child in two dimensions, one where they are raised by their biological parents and one where their parents are tragically killed and they are raised by foster parents, would the child be the same "person" in both cases?

I wish people realized what blank slates we are when we come out. Way too much insistence on "hard wired" ********.

Take 5 people from different random parts of the planet, ask them what "natural behaviors driven by centuries of evolution" there are. You'll be lucky if you only get 5 opinions. They will all insist that "all you have to do is look around and see how people act!"

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 15th February 2020 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 15th February 2020, 04:18 PM   #2396
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And it turns out you have been wrong this whole time. It was never as you described. Just as people didn't realize sexuality was not a choice.
It turns out no such thing. If you have a man's body you have a man's body. Period. This is a self-evident fact, and the only relevant one where a sports authority is concerned.
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Old 15th February 2020, 04:19 PM   #2397
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You might be able to make one by measuring arousal while watching images. But it doesn't matter, I know of no reason we need one. Subjective tests suffice for any reason I would ever want to know someone's sexual orientation for.
You stated

Quote:
Furthermore, if you want to claim that it's really biological, then there should be an objective test to demonstrate this.
What about all the other claims that are biological that you don't state there should be an objective test? By what principle is this one excepted?
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Old 15th February 2020, 04:21 PM   #2398
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Transgirls are girls. Just as redhead girls are girls.
No they are not. They have the bodies of men. Different musculature, different stamina and endurance. Different build. Those do not change just because their brains are miswired to think they are women. They Are NOT.

#factsmatter
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Old 15th February 2020, 04:23 PM   #2399
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is biology just as sexual orientation is biology. But it isn't sex organs. The functioning of the brain is biology.
The BODY is male. And will forever be male. That is the only relevant factor a sports authority is concerned with.
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Old 15th February 2020, 04:31 PM   #2400
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post

I wish people realized what blank slates we are when we come out. Way too much insistence on "hard wired" ********.
It's called biology for a freakin' reason. And yes it IS "hard wired".

Facts don't care about your or anyone else's feelings.
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