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Old 13th October 2019, 02:28 AM   #81
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The Dunn's lawyer was on BBC News just now, and stated that at the time of the crash Sacoolas's husband did not have accredited diplomatic immunity (even as a non-diplomat), so neither did she.

I would say that for the US to claim she did retrospectively is what we here would call "taking the piss."
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Old 14th October 2019, 11:11 PM   #82
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Just a question here: How does British law enforcement generally handle a matter like this? Terrible tragedy, but no evidence of booze or drugs, no malicious intent, obvious driver confusion. U.S. drivers often do worse without being prosecuted.
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Old 15th October 2019, 12:02 AM   #83
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They treat it as a crime. Preserve the scene, obtain any forensic evidence, interview witnesses. The driver would be interviewed under caution (our equivalent of Miranda rights).
Then a file would be submitted to the Crown Prosecution Service for a decision.
The relevant offences are -
Causing death by dangerous driving
Causing death by careless or inconsiderate driving
The latter would be the likely charge in this case imo (on the limited facts available), it carries a maximum sentence of five years imprisonment.
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Old 15th October 2019, 01:17 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The airbase junction is a simple left or right. On leaving the guardhouse the road is marked into two lanes, one left one right. The main road is two lanes, one in either direction.

I am sure the first time driving you would pay particular attention and ensure you went onto the correct side of the road, but after that you should remember what side of the road to go on.

If it was the first time she had driven out of the base, she failed to pay close attention and concentrate. If she had already driven, she failed to remember what side to drive on. Either way, that failure resulted in dangerous driving.

The various anecdotes of driving on the wrong side are also examples of dangerous driving.

Road traffic law was simplified a few years back, so that intention was removed and the actual act of driving determines if the law has been broken. You may not intend to drive on the wrong side of the road, but that is not the issue. That driving on the wrong side of the road is dangerous to other road users, is enough to convict.
Which side of the road do they drive on within the airbase?
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Old 15th October 2019, 01:53 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Which side of the road do they drive on within the airbase?
The left. Driving on the right would make entry/exit extremely difficult and dangerous, and would be asking for trouble for people leaving onto normal roads.
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Old 15th October 2019, 09:10 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The airbase junction is a simple left or right. On leaving the guardhouse the road is marked into two lanes, one left one right. The main road is two lanes, one in either direction.

I am sure the first time driving you would pay particular attention and ensure you went onto the correct side of the road, but after that you should remember what side of the road to go on.

If it was the first time she had driven out of the base, she failed to pay close attention and concentrate. If she had already driven, she failed to remember what side to drive on. Either way, that failure resulted in dangerous driving.
.....

In central London, "Look Right" (or sometimes "Look Left" where appropriate) with an arrow is painted on the pavement at pretty much every corner for the benefit of international tourists. At an American base, it wouldn't cost much to post some signs and paint some directional arrows on the pavement so a moment's inattention or confusion wouldn't get somebody killed. The driver's clearly at fault here, but sometimes road design and conditions are contributing factors.

ETA: Great minds think alike.
Quote:
New road signs and markings have appeared outside the RAF base where teenager Harry Dunn was killed after being hit by a car driving on the wrong side of the road.

Arrows indicating the direction of travel have been painted on both sides of the road as well as a ‘please drive on left’ sign.
https://www.newsypeople.com/signs-re...19-was-killed/

Last edited by Bob001; 15th October 2019 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 15th October 2019, 10:47 PM   #87
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Trump really is a psychopathic bellend.

BBC News: Harry Dunn's parents meet President Trump at White House

"Donald Trump has said the suspect in the death of crash victim Harry Dunn will not return to the UK, the teenager's parents have said.

Anne Sacoolas, 42, returned to the United States days after the crash which killed 19-year-old Harry.

The president revealed Mrs Sacoolas was also at the White House, but Harry's parents declined to meet her.

Family spokesman Radd Seiger said they felt "a little ambushed" by Mr Trump's offer.

The president said she was in the room next door to Charlotte Charles and Tim Dunn but they refused to see her, saying the conditions were not right."

What normal human being would think that was a good idea under any circumstances?
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Old 16th October 2019, 12:18 AM   #88
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Trump also had 2 or 3 photographers there for a photo op with the parents and Sacoolas.

I mean, FFS...
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Old 16th October 2019, 12:33 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-49995867

"A woman at the centre of a row over diplomatic immunity will not return to the UK, according to briefing notes held by US President Donald Trump.
Anne Sacoolas is suspected of being involved in a car crash that killed British motorcyclist Harry Dunn, who died in Northamptonshire on 27 August.
Mrs Sacoolas later left the UK to return home to the US, after telling local police she had no such plans.
The note was photographed as Mr Trump addressed reporters at the White House."

This is a disgusting misuse of diplomatic immunity, Sacoolas is scum and Trump is a dirty little liar.
Given this woman successfully left the country ISTM the UK would need to request extradition. Trump doesn't have the authority to frogmarch her to a plane back to the UK.
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Old 16th October 2019, 01:14 AM   #90
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Just a wee story here..... yesterday, as I was about to pull into my drive (on a rural backroad) I noticed a van trying to reverse out onto the main road (dangerous enough in itself). I stopped to let the van out then watched as it proceeded up the road..... on the wrong side.

I chased it, overtook and blocked the road and was able to speak to the Eastern European delivery driver and remind him we drive on the left before giving him directions for his delivery.

He doesn't know how lucky he is as this road is currently heavily used by Forestry Commision lorries transporting cut pines, they weigh tonnes and they drive like idiots, far too fast. If one had come around the corner 500 yards before him it wouldn't have stopped until it had flattened the van.

My good deed for the day.

...... carry on......
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Old 16th October 2019, 01:35 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Since it was a Libyan government employee firing from their own territory across the border into a foreign country I'd say they had already begun an unprovoked invasion. Declaring war is simply a formality at that point.

An embassy is not foreign territory.
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Old 16th October 2019, 01:49 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
What normal human being would think that was a good idea under any circumstances?
One who thinks he's still living in a reality TV show.
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Old 16th October 2019, 01:51 AM   #93
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"Drive on the left" signs in a number of languages are common on roads leaving airports and seaports. They should be at airbases as well.
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Old 16th October 2019, 02:03 AM   #94
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Harry Dunn's parents have rejected the chance to meet the suspect in their son's crash death after Donald Trump dropped the "bombshell" that she was in the room next door at the White House.

Charlotte Charles and Tim Dunn felt "a little ambushed" by the offer made by the US president.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-50064595
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Old 16th October 2019, 02:40 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
One who thinks he's still living in a reality TV show.
Or one of those dreadful "reunion" programmes.

"You thought the woman who killed your son was probably at home in Virginia, but we've got a surprise for you...!"
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Old 16th October 2019, 05:24 AM   #96
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Parents of teen killed in crash allegedly involving US diplomat's wife meet Trump, but decline to see suspect (CNN, Oct. 16, 2019)
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Old 16th October 2019, 05:31 AM   #97
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When anyone does something like this 'as a surprise' (and my ex turned up at my doorstep in a foreign country 'as a surprise'), it is clear what their motivation is: because they fear that the person is going to say no, and hope to provide them with less opportunity to do so.
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Old 16th October 2019, 12:54 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by BillC View Post
When anyone does something like this 'as a surprise' (and my ex turned up at my doorstep in a foreign country 'as a surprise'), it is clear what their motivation is: because they fear that the person is going to say no, and hope to provide them with less opportunity to do so.
That’s certainly one possible motivation, but I suspect there are others. There are some with a narcissistic streak, for whom giving gifts is all about them, and who expect the recipients to be grateful simply because they’ve been given something, regardless of whether it was something they wanted or the cost to them of receiving it.
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Old 16th October 2019, 01:01 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by BillC View Post
When anyone does something like this 'as a surprise' (and my ex turned up at my doorstep in a foreign country 'as a surprise'), it is clear what their motivation is: because they fear that the person is going to say no, and hope to provide them with less opportunity to do so.
Yup. I suspect that Trump wanted to force an emotional "hug it out, all if forgiven" moment by pulling this stunt on them unawares. For whatever reason, Trump doesn't want to send this lady back for UK justice to deal with, so getting a good photo-op suggesting that the issue is resolved would be very helpful.

Good for these folks for not being duped by this BS.
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Old 16th October 2019, 01:09 PM   #100
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I half expected Michael Aspel to take time out from appearing in adverts for funeral plans and to show up with a Big Red Book of Harry Dunn.

These are Harry's parents... we're sorry Harry can't be with us tonight but lets give a big This Is Your Life Death welcome to....... Harry's killer!!

On what planet could this ever have been a good idea?
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Old 16th October 2019, 01:22 PM   #101
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Anne Sacoolas 'disappointed' by White House rejection

Quote:
The US woman accused of involvement in the crash which killed Harry Dunn has said she was "disappointed" not to have met his family.

Mr Dunn's parents rejected a "bombshell" offer from Donald Trump to meet Anne Sacoolas at the White House on Tuesday.

Charlotte Charles and Tim Dunn felt "a little ambushed" when the president revealed she was in the next room.

Mr Trump described his meeting with the couple as "beautiful" but "very sad".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-50070481
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Old 16th October 2019, 01:23 PM   #102
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Obsolete comment.

Last edited by Minoosh; 16th October 2019 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 16th October 2019, 02:47 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Anne Sacoolas 'disappointed' by White House rejection



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-50070481
That woman is an utter ****. I wish a pox upon her.
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Old 16th October 2019, 03:12 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
They treat it as a crime. Preserve the scene, obtain any forensic evidence, interview witnesses. The driver would be interviewed under caution (our equivalent of Miranda rights).
Then a file would be submitted to the Crown Prosecution Service for a decision.
The relevant offences are -
Causing death by dangerous driving
Causing death by careless or inconsiderate driving
The latter would be the likely charge in this case imo (on the limited facts available), it carries a maximum sentence of five years imprisonment.
What would be the typical UK sentence for this crime under similar circumstances? In other words, if she had not left, what is the likelihood that she would have been convicted and sent to prison?
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Old 16th October 2019, 03:23 PM   #105
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Harry Dunn is dead?

Please tell me Lloyd Christmas is ok!
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Old 16th October 2019, 11:24 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What would be the typical UK sentence for this crime under similar circumstances? In other words, if she had not left, what is the likelihood that she would have been convicted and sent to prison?
Although IANAL, almost zero that she would be sent to prison. Mostly it's a fine and a driving ban.

That's what makes it so senseless, she could face the music and pretty much dump a load of cash and **** off home again, PR work done, if she was cynically minded instead of a complete ****.
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Old 17th October 2019, 12:48 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Trump really is a psychopathic bellend.

BBC News: Harry Dunn's parents meet President Trump at White House

"Donald Trump has said the suspect in the death of crash victim Harry Dunn will not return to the UK, the teenager's parents have said.

Anne Sacoolas, 42, returned to the United States days after the crash which killed 19-year-old Harry.

The president revealed Mrs Sacoolas was also at the White House, but Harry's parents declined to meet her.

Family spokesman Radd Seiger said they felt "a little ambushed" by Mr Trump's offer.

The president said she was in the room next door to Charlotte Charles and Tim Dunn but they refused to see her, saying the conditions were not right."

What normal human being would think that was a good idea under any circumstances?
Typical pathetic Trump stunt, everything is about him.
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Old 17th October 2019, 12:59 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
I half expected Michael Aspel to take time out from appearing in adverts for funeral plans and to show up with a Big Red Book of Harry Dunn.

These are Harry's parents... we're sorry Harry can't be with us tonight but lets give a big This Is Your Life Death welcome to....... Harry's killer!!

On what planet could this ever have been a good idea?
LOL. This s going back a bit.

'Harry Dunn, this is your life. Er, this <ahem> was <cough, splutter> your life.'

<fx much swearing, cut to commercial break>
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Old 17th October 2019, 07:50 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
she watched Lethal Weapon 2 too many times...
Not nearly enough, considering what happens to the villain at the end.


IT'S JUST BEEN REVOKED!
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Old 17th October 2019, 08:54 AM   #110
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At least Trump didn’t call his conversation with the parents “perfect!”

ETA: or shout that “there was no collision!”
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Last edited by autumn1971; 17th October 2019 at 09:00 AM.
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Old 17th October 2019, 09:15 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
At least Trump didn’t call his conversation with the parents “perfect!”

ETA: or shout that “there was no collision!”

Can I nominate for a "Too Soon" award?
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Old 17th October 2019, 09:40 AM   #112
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Interview with the parents on CNN News: Harry Dunn's family spokesperson on Trump meeting: It was intimidating (Oct. 17, 2019)

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
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Old 17th October 2019, 09:50 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
That woman is an utter ****. I wish a pox upon her.
Smallpox or great pox? The former's a bit harder to find.
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Old 17th October 2019, 10:54 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
“there was no collision!”
Nice.
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Old 17th October 2019, 11:23 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Smallpox or great pox? The former's a bit harder to find.
French Pox?
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Old 20th December 2019, 07:45 AM   #116
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BBC News: Harry Dunn crash death - US woman to be charged

"A US woman will be charged with causing the death by dangerous driving of teenage motorcyclist Harry Dunn.

Mr Dunn, 19, died in a road crash in Northamptonshire in August that led to suspect Anne Sacoolas leaving for the US under diplomatic immunity.

The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) confirmed it had started extradition proceedings through the Home Office.

Mr Dunn died after his motorbike was in collision with a car owned by Mrs Sacoolas outside RAF Croughton.

The RAF base was where Mrs Sacoolas's husband Jonathan worked as an intelligence officer.

The CPS said immunity did not apply to dependants of consular officials outside of London."
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Old 20th December 2019, 12:56 PM   #117
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Good. There is lots of evidence she was not paying any attention when she drove out of the base. Driving on the wrong side of the road is clearly dangerous;

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidanc...affic-charging

"The offence of causing death by dangerous driving is committed under s.1 RTA 1988 when the suspect's driving is a cause or factor in the death of another person and the driving was dangerous. By "dangerous" we mean within the meaning of s.2A RTA 1988, i.e. the standard of driving falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver and it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous.

The examples given in relation to dangerous driving also apply to this offence. See examples listed under the Dangerous Driving section.

It is an offence triable only on indictment and carries a maximum penalty of 14 years' imprisonment, by virtue of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, and/or an unlimited fine.

The court must disqualify the driver from driving for at least 2 years, unless special reasons are found for not disqualifying (in which case it must endorse the driver's licence with 3 -11 penalty points, unless there are special reasons not to do so). An extended retest is also mandatory."

In the section of examples of dangerous driving, this seems most appropriate;

"a brief but obvious danger arising from a seriously dangerous manoeuvre. This covers situations where a driver has made a mistake or an error of judgement that was so substantial that it caused the driving to be dangerous even for only a short time."
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Last edited by Nessie; 20th December 2019 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 21st December 2019, 09:38 AM   #118
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What I really don't understand is the US response to this, it's not like the UK is planning to lure Sacoolas into an embassy and dismember her. She will get due process and yet the US government seems intent on shielding her from the consequences of her actions regardless of the diplomatic consequences.
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Old 21st December 2019, 09:47 AM   #119
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Her lawyer stating that up to 14 years in prison is unreasonable, is missing that is for the very worst cases of death by dangerous driving, such as a deliberate act that kills many people. A Polish lorry driver who killed 3 when he was on his phone and did not notice stationary traffic, got 10 years.
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Old 21st December 2019, 09:55 AM   #120
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My understanding is that diplomatic immunity is to protect citizens serving their country in another from being charged with crimes for purely political reasons, ie either to pressure their government or as revenge for some policy. Diplomatic immunity has generally been waived when there is reasonable evidence that an individual actually committed a crime, particularly if it is considered a crime in both countries. The person can then be tried as any other visitor. This is particularly true if the host country is an ally and has a strong and fair legal system.

The USA’s behavior in the current case is inexplicable to me.
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