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Old 23rd October 2019, 09:58 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
But think of how many lives would be saved by setting a universal speed limit of 35mph with accompanying speed governors in all non-emergency/non-LE vehicles.

Why would you set it at anything lower than the highest, legal limit?
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Old 23rd October 2019, 10:01 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Japanese motoring restrictions would blow your mind.

The Japanese generally accept far more restrictions on rights than most westerners do, to the point where they don't really have the same concept of individual rights that are enjoyed in most Eurosphere cultures.

Further, driving in Japan is more of a luxury than a necessity for the vast majority of people, as they have a much more effective and accessible public transportation system than the US, or even much of Europe. I have no doubt that most people here would be far more willing to accept greater restrictions on driving if they had better public transportation options available. I know I would.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 10:02 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Why would you set it at anything lower than the highest, legal limit?

Because slower speeds save lives, and you're all about saving lives.

Besides, what is the highest legal limit? In what context?
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Old 23rd October 2019, 10:04 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Why would you set it at anything lower than the highest, legal limit?
I think you misread. What part of his proposal are you referring to when you say "it"? The governors? He said to set them to the highest legal limit.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 10:05 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Besides, what is the highest legal limit? In what context?
I'm guessing he just missed that you are proposing a lower legal limit.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 10:05 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The Japanese generally accept far more restrictions on rights than most westerners do, to the point where they don't really have the same concept of individual rights that are enjoyed in most Eurosphere cultures.

Further, driving in Japan is more of a luxury than a necessity for the vast majority of people, as they have a much more effective and accessible public transportation system than the US, or even much of Europe. I have no doubt that most people here would be far more willing to accept greater restrictions on driving if they had better public transportation options available. I know I would.
Have you ever been to Japan? I'd say it's beyond being a luxury; it's completely pointless. Their public transportation system is AMAZING in more ways than one.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 10:09 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Because slower speeds save lives, and you're all about saving lives.

That's not what I said at all. But you carry on anyway.


Quote:
Besides, what is the highest legal limit? In what context?
No idea. Higher than 35.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 10:11 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I think you misread. What part of his proposal are you referring to when you say "it"? The governors? He said to set them to the highest legal limit.
Oh! gotcha. Thanks

Sorry Luchog
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Old 23rd October 2019, 10:31 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
TNo idea. Higher than 35.

Higher than 35 everywhere?
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Old 23rd October 2019, 10:41 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Higher than 35 everywhere?
I'm struggling to see your point. Could you be explicit?
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Old 23rd October 2019, 10:42 AM   #371
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Just make it illegal to drive. Death problem solved.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:10 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If total lives saved is the metric for policy then we should certainly outlaw smoking, and return to prohibition for alcohol. And judging by the obesity epidemic a whole range of food and drink should be prohibited, and compulsory exercise made law.

Yet we don't do those things, no matter how many millions of lives they'd save. Why not?
This happens in other threads as well. When availability of high powered weapons is questioned, some people talk about swimming pools and golf clubs.

When I spoke about saving lives, I was talking about lives taken by drunk drivers. Alcohol detectors in cars will save lives. That people’s “liberty” (yes, scare quotes because the liberty not to blow in a straw is trivial in the extreme) is worth thousands of people dying per year, is a very sad state of affairs.

Tell me, how many people who oppose this device wear seat belts? Isn’t the liberty not to do so precious to you?
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:22 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
This happens in other threads as well. When availability of high powered weapons is questioned, some people talk about swimming pools and golf clubs.

When I spoke about saving lives, I was talking about lives taken by drunk drivers. Alcohol detectors in cars will save lives. That people’s “liberty” (yes, scare quotes because the liberty not to blow in a straw is trivial in the extreme) is worth thousands of people dying per year, is a very sad state of affairs.

Tell me, how many people who oppose this device wear seat belts? Isn’t the liberty not to do so precious to you?
There's a difference between having mandatory seat belt laws (there are enforcement problems, but those are minor compared to other problems with the US justice system), and a car that *will not start*, or worse that *shuts down mid-drive* if it detects a weight in a seat but not a buckled car belt.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:26 AM   #374
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I should have added, now that it’s been decided that nothing is off topic in this thread, that governments around the world have been working very successfully to limit smoking, alcohol consumption and obesity. These things can happen in conjunction with limiting the effects of drunk driving.

In Australia we have random breath test units everywhere. It’s definitely brought down the road toll, and I haven’t seen a jack boot yet.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:30 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
There's a difference between having mandatory seat belt laws (there are enforcement problems, but those are minor compared to other problems with the US justice system), and a car that *will not start*, or worse that *shuts down mid-drive* if it detects a weight in a seat but not a buckled car belt.
Firstly I don’t see a difference and secondly, where is your evidence that a car shuts down or won’t start if a seat belt isn’t buckled? Every car I’ve been in beeps non stop, but doesn’t shut down. A car that did this surely wouldn’t be allowed on the road.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:39 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
This happens in other threads as well. When availability of high powered weapons is questioned, some people talk about swimming pools and golf clubs.

When I spoke about saving lives, I was talking about lives taken by drunk drivers. Alcohol detectors in cars will save lives. That people’s “liberty” (yes, scare quotes because the liberty not to blow in a straw is trivial in the extreme) is worth thousands of people dying per year, is a very sad state of affairs.

Tell me, how many people who oppose this device wear seat belts? Isn’t the liberty not to do so precious to you?
You keep lying about the liberty at stake in this proposal.

The liberty at stake is not submitting to an examination of your personal health by the government, without probable cause or other compelling interest. You keep trying to minimize this fact. Why?
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:40 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Firstly I don’t see a difference and secondly, where is your evidence that a car shuts down or won’t start if a seat belt isn’t buckled? Every car I’ve been in beeps non stop, but doesn’t shut down. A car that did this surely wouldn’t be allowed on the road.

The whole point of alcohol-detecting interlocks is that they refuse to start or shut down the car if alcohol is detected. The point was that is something that is considered unacceptable when applied to seatbelts.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:41 AM   #378
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Quote:
Firstly I don’t see a difference and secondly, where is your evidence that a car shuts down or won’t start if a seat belt isn’t buckled?
There isn't any. He's contrasting seat belts with the device described in the OP.

Quote:
Every car I’ve been in beeps non stop, but doesn’t shut down. A car that did this surely wouldn’t be allowed on the road.
Then what did you mean when you said you didn't see a difference?
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:43 AM   #379
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The majority of car accidents are caused by sober drivers.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:45 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You keep lying about the liberty at stake in this proposal.

The liberty at stake is not submitting to an examination of your personal health

I don't think I agree with your description of the process.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:45 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
When I spoke about saving lives, I was talking about lives taken by drunk drivers. Alcohol detectors in cars will save lives. That people’s “liberty” (yes, scare quotes because the liberty not to blow in a straw is trivial in the extreme) is worth thousands of people dying per year, is a very sad state of affairs.

Reducing maximum speed to 35mph (55kph) with speed governors will save even more lives than alcohol-detecting interlocks will.

And governor technology is far more reliable, less prone to failure, less intrusive, and cheaper to retrofit than current breathalyzer interlock technology.

Would that be considered a greater restriction on personal liberty than interlocks?
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Old 23rd October 2019, 12:31 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
The majority of car accidents are caused by sober drivers.
Yet another “perfect is the enemy of good” argument. Easy to dismiss.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 12:38 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Reducing maximum speed to 35mph (55kph) with speed governors will save even more lives than alcohol-detecting interlocks will.

And governor technology is far more reliable, less prone to failure, less intrusive, and cheaper to retrofit than current breathalyzer interlock technology.

Would that be considered a greater restriction on personal liberty than interlocks?
I see people continue to deflect from drunk drivers.

Firstly, there are times when speed saves lives, so governors can cause deaths. But you know this. There are other ways of controlling speeding drivers, speed cameras (yes, we have heaps in Australia) being one good way.

Now what if the interlock system worked perfectly and simply stop alcohol impaired people from driving? Would you support it then? Isn’t the freedom not to be killed by drunk drivers worth something?
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Old 23rd October 2019, 01:04 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Firstly, there are times when speed saves lives, so governors can cause deaths.

Not aware of any, can you provide some examples?

There are times when seatbelts have caused deaths. Do you oppose seatbelts?

Quote:
Now what if the interlock system worked perfectly and simply stop alcohol impaired people from driving? Would you support it then? Isn’t the freedom not to be killed by drunk drivers worth something?

There's no such thing as perfect technology, and I'm not interested in impossible hypotheticals. And at any rate, you'd know the answer to that if you'd bothered to read my other posts.

Speaking of freedom not to be killed, do you also support the banning of mobile phones in vehicles, maybe a lockbox they have to be stored in before the car will start? All research shows that they're just as dangerous as alcohol, even when used "hands-free". And despite laws against using them while driving, many, many people do. I know at least one person who was seriously injured by an idiot blowing through a crosswalk while blabbing on his phone and not paying attention; and I've had quite a few close calls myself.
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Last edited by luchog; 23rd October 2019 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 25th October 2019, 09:39 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
Modern interlock devices require you to re-blow in random intervals every 10 to 40 minutes or so after the initial start. They also take your picture and require you to hum while blowing (so you can't use a balloon, say).
This is all correct.

My experience is from helping an alcoholic with an interlock device move their car to avoid it being towed.

Driving across the city, I had to blow to start the car, then it asked me to blow into the tube twice in around 45 minutes. It was inconvenient and unsafe - I couldn't really pull over where it was asking me to, so I had to blow in the tube while driving.

Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
No one would be treating you like a criminal.

It’s merely a device that prevents your car from starting if you’re intoxicated.
And during your drive, potentially several times.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
For the passive breath technology I can think of one work-around -a small handheld fan that blows a little more fresh air into the system diluting the breath with clean ambient air.
Which is why these interlock devices have cameras, to spot any would-be cheaters. The camera would see your fan.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Firstly I don’t see a difference and secondly, where is your evidence that a car shuts down or won’t start if a seat belt isn’t buckled? Every car I’ve been in beeps non stop, but doesn’t shut down. A car that did this surely wouldn’t be allowed on the road.
No kidding. That's what the interlock devices do - they shut down if you don't blow again. They go nuts with sonic warnings, threatening to shut the car down while you're driving, and can only be satisfied by you blowing into a tube mid-drive.
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Old 25th October 2019, 02:29 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Which is why these interlock devices have cameras, to spot any would-be cheaters. The camera would see your fan.
The new devices being researched don’t have these cameras, as I understand them. If the proposal is for mandatory passive interlocks WITH cameras that can be monitored, then my objections are even stronger.
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Old 25th October 2019, 02:37 PM   #387
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I read the article but don't really understand what kind of "passive" tech is being considered. Volvo said straight out that they are going to use in-car cameras to monitor people's eye movements, reaction times, etc.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/20/1...racted-driving
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Old 10th February 2020, 10:17 AM   #388
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New article in the NY Times notes that these devices can be unsafe. One sober driver killed a girl in an accident after he dropped the breath tube after doing his "rolling check" with the device. It also mentions false positives, causing vehicles to shut down even when the driver is sober.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/23/b...ock-crash.html
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Old 13th February 2020, 08:39 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
New article in the NY Times notes that these devices can be unsafe. One sober driver killed a girl in an accident after he dropped the breath tube after doing his "rolling check" with the device. It also mentions false positives, causing vehicles to shut down even when the driver is sober.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/23/b...ock-crash.html
"Rollng Checks"? How the hell did no one see the potential for accidents?
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:41 AM   #390
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I'm telling you, the one time I drove someone's car that had one of these things, I couldn't believe it. It's actually ironic that we're trying to make the roads safer by creating distracted drivers.
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