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Old 18th October 2019, 11:39 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And I repeat, there very much is a constitutional right to prevent unreasonable search. It isn't predicated on the activity interrupted by the search having to itself be constitutionally enumerated.

And if prevention of crime is the civilized thing that trumps individual liberty then it would be even more effective and therefore more civilized to attach ankle monitors with video and audio recording to everyone. It could even detect alcohol level too.
In this case there would be no "search" by law enforcement, and no legal consequences for being drunk. You just wouldn't be able to start your car. The regulation wouldn't even be on the driver; it would be on the car: "You can't sell a car that can be operated by a drunk driver." There is just no constitutional issue.
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:44 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Groovy. What other 'for my own good' treats are in store? Ones that could never be abused or repurposed, of course. Hey, even a malfunction could be fun. All to keep proving my innocence at all times.

Well intentioned. Seemingly benign. Still not good. Direct monitoring is always bad to a normal person. Leave us the **** alone.
Again, these devices already exist and are in use.

Do a little research and report back with any data you find that the shows how they're being abused or repurposed with nefarious intent that give credence to your concerns.

Also, and I feel like this has maybe been mentioned already, there's no monitoring going on.
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:44 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yeah, that must be it, nobody could hold a position out of principle. For your information I don't drink and drive. I barely drink at all: I have maybe three beers a year, on separate occasions, when I am not driving. Which is precisely why I shouldn't be subjected to being treated like a criminal.
Who's treating you like a criminal? Passing a sobriety test when you start your car would be no different from buckling your seat belt (also a legal requirement) and adjusting your mirrors. Or do you feel like a criminal if a cop asks to see your license?
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:45 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
A device that operates by searching your body for particular chemicals.
As I understand it, that is correct.
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:45 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Who's treating you like a criminal? Passing a sobriety test when you start your car would be no different from buckling your seat belt (also a legal requirement) and adjusting your mirrors. Or do you feel like a criminal if a cop asks to see your license?
The seatbelt doesn't activate itself, or stop the car from running if unused. And cops only ask for a license if they've pulled you over, which they're only supposed to do if they have cause.
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:48 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Again, these devices already exist and are in use.
By court order, after a person has been found guilty in trial or pled guilty in a deal. There is reason for those people to be subjected to it.
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:48 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yeah, that must be it, nobody could hold a position out of principle. For your information I don't drink and drive. I barely drink at all: I have maybe three beers a year, on separate occasions, when I am not driving. Which is precisely why I shouldn't be subjected to being treated like a criminal.
A police officer can pull you over at any time and require you to take a sobriety test.

If you refuse, you could lose your license.

As Bob001 correctly pointed out, these is no constitutional protections related to the right to operate a motor vehicle. It is a privilege granted by the government that can be revoked at any time.
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:48 AM   #48
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Every time you start your car, you are proving that you're not a car thief by using a key (or RF device).
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:49 AM   #49
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As usual, I am confused. The devise in the "new vehicles" is to prevent people from driving drunk, I understand that. But is the idea for the driver to check his own alcohol level, before they drive? And what, then they don't drive? That can't be right!?

The general idea bothers me. I won't drive after even one beer, but there is something that makes me uncomfortable about what these cars do and how is it really preventative.
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:49 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
By court order, after a person has been found guilty in trial or pled guilty in a deal. There is reason for those people to be subjected to it.
Granted, but the question was one of abuse and repurposing of these devices.

If the potential for that exists, it shouldn't be too hard to find actual evidence of it happening.
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:51 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
As Bob001 correctly pointed out, these is no constitutional protections related to the right to operate a motor vehicle. It is a privilege granted by the government that can be revoked at any time.
Could the government revoke your driving privileges because of your ethnicity? No, it couldn't, because even privileges are subject to the constitution.
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:52 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
As usual, I am confused. The devise in the "new vehicles" is to prevent people from driving drunk, I understand that. But is the idea for the driver to check his own alcohol level, before they drive? And what, then they don't drive? That can't be right!?

The general idea bothers me. I won't drive after even one beer, but there is something that makes me uncomfortable about what these cars do and how is it really preventative.
The proposal is for ignition interlocks that would prevent a car from being started by a drunk driver.
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:52 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The seatbelt doesn't activate itself, or stop the car from running if unused. And cops only ask for a license if they've pulled you over, which they're only supposed to do if they have cause.
I think I'd rather have a car that wouldn't start until I buckled my seatbelt than get pulled over and ticketed.
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:53 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Could the government revoke your driving privileges because of your ethnicity? No, it couldn't, because even privileges are subject to the constitution.
Drunk drivers are not a protected class.
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:53 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I think I'd rather have a car that wouldn't start until I buckled my seatbelt than get pulled over and ticketed.
I just always wear a seatbelt so I don't like either of those options.
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:54 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Drunk drivers are not a protected class.
Then we agree: only those convicted of drunk driving should be subjected to such devices.
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:56 AM   #57
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How about considering some unintended consequences? Presumably, future vehicles will have better gas mileage, there will be more EVs, etc. Do we want to slow down the conversion to these new vehicles? Pre-installed ignition interlocks will do that quite effectively, as drinkers hold on to their older cars.

Plus there is the cost to consider. After doing a little web-browsing, I discovered that the cost of an ignition interlock is about $100 for the installation and about $1,000 a year in lease payments. Presumable then the device itself sells for somewhere north of $1,000. Let's say that factory installation saves some money and use $1000 as the cost of the device installed new on your car.

There are about 17 million new cars and small trucks sold every year. Thus we can estimate the cost to consumers of the ignition interlock at $17 billion dollars. How many lives will be saved? The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration estimates 10,000 lives are lost annually due to drunk driving. So that's a cost of about $1.7 million per life saved.
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:58 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Then we agree: only those convicted of drunk driving should be subjected to such devices.
No, a drunk driver is anyone who drives drunk, not just someone who has been caught, prosecuted, convicted and sentenced. And any drunk driver is an immediate threat to everybody else on the road, particularly including me.
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:03 PM   #59
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What if?

Situation One:

In a rural farming area a child need to be taken to hospital or she will die.

The Ambulance cannot get through because of a damaged road that needs 4X4

There is only one person available to operate the 4X4, because of another issue out of the farms control (Had to rescue some baby cows)

He has the smallest possible fraction over the allowed limit of alcohol and the 4X4 wont start ... child dies.

Solution? ... Get's a child to blow into the device ... saves child's life.

Situation two: Career drunks gets kid to activate car, so he can go get more beer

Situation two happens all the time NOW with the current system, heck sometimes they get the KID to drive to the beer store.
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:04 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
....
Plus there is the cost to consider. After doing a little web-browsing, I discovered that the cost of an ignition interlock is about $100 for the installation and about $1,000 a year in lease payments.
.....
The lease payments are for drunk drivers who have to lease the gadgets from court-approved vendors. That wouldn't apply if they were factory installed, and it's hard to believe that mass production and installation would add anywhere close to $100 to the cost of a car.
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:04 PM   #61
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Aren't the current stats that there are more DUI's for other chemicals besides booze?

(aside: Hey, anybody hear how alcohol sales do after pot gets legalized? )

Breathalyzer for pot? But the problem with pot is that small amounts stay in your system for weeks, no way to tell current levels rise to intoxication.

Then too, different people have different thresholds. How about we do a reflex and concentration test? Isn't that the point? An electronic "walk the straight line, touch your nose,..." Set the bar high enough that 10% of people currently on the road are eliminated.
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:04 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Could the government revoke your driving privileges because of your ethnicity? No, it couldn't, because even privileges are subject to the constitution.
Okay, so perhaps I was a little loose with my language.

Obviously, they have to have cause.

If you're driving and perhaps unintentionally swerve a bit, a cop can pull you over and require you to take a sobriety test. If you refuse, your driving privileges can suspended. No court. No hearing. No due process. Your driver's licence will just be taken away from you.

How you think this is better than a car that won't start if you're intoxicated, I'm not sure I understand.

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Old 18th October 2019, 12:07 PM   #63
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And how much does it cost a driver to maintain the breathalyzer? What are the penalties of failure to maintain? Is it OK to unhook it? EVERTHING is hackable.
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:08 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
What if?
.....
Situation two: Career drunks gets kid to activate car, so he can go get more beer

Situation two happens all the time NOW with the current system, heck sometimes they get the KID to drive to the beer store.
No system is foolproof, but that's supposed to be difficult. Some gadgets take a picture of the driver.
https://www.dmv.org/automotive-law/d...ock-device.php
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:08 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The lease payments are for drunk drivers who have to lease the gadgets from court-approved vendors. That wouldn't apply if they were factory installed, and it's hard to believe that mass production and installation would add anywhere close to $100 to the cost of a car.
I'm against the idea but agree .. it would probably add $22 if it was on all new cars
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:08 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
What if?

Situation One:

In a rural farming area a child need to be taken to hospital or she will die.

The Ambulance cannot get through because of a damaged road that needs 4X4

There is only one person available to operate the 4X4, because of another issue out of the farms control (Had to rescue some baby cows)

He has the smallest possible fraction over the allowed limit of alcohol and the 4X4 wont start ... child dies.

Solution? ... Get's a child to blow into the device ... saves child's life.

Situation two: Career drunks gets kid to activate car, so he can go get more beer

Situation two happens all the time NOW with the current system, heck sometimes they get the KID to drive to the beer store.
Yup. Situation 2 is common. Not only a child, sometimes a passerby for $20, or a drunk young lady who reeeaaaly needs help starting her car.

So maybe the tech will need to be upgraded/made more invasive 'for our safety'

It's all for our own good, kids
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:10 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And how much does it cost a driver to maintain the breathalyzer? What are the penalties of failure to maintain? Is it OK to unhook it? EVERTHING is hackable.
Again, these devices already exist and are in use.

If these problems are possible, then they already exist too.

Find evidence of them, and then we can have a fact-based discussion instead of one based on conjecture.

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Old 18th October 2019, 12:11 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I just always wear a seatbelt so I don't like either of those options.
If you always wear your seatbelt, the first option wouldn't affect you.
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:13 PM   #69
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Okay, what about this? The interlock would be advisory. It would keep you from starting the car if your alcohol level is too high. But you could override it by entering a code. That would take care of an emergency, a defective unit etc. But getting caught driving drunk after disabling the gadget would carry much stiffer penalties.
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:14 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yup. Situation 2 is common. Not only a child, sometimes a passerby for $20, or a drunk young lady who reeeaaaly needs help starting her car.

So maybe the tech will need to be upgraded/made more invasive 'for our safety'

It's all for our own good, kids
Plus the dead simple 100% legal method of drunks just buying an old car

We recently had our "Smog Test" rescinded here in Ontario .. and I know a dozen guys who just switched to old cars (because they are the guys who are always swapping engines and do their own repairs)

OR simply registering the car with an older serial number from the same model heck *I'VE* done that

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Old 18th October 2019, 12:16 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
There are about 17 million new cars and small trucks sold every year. Thus we can estimate the cost to consumers of the ignition interlock at $17 billion dollars. How many lives will be saved? The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration estimates 10,000 lives are lost annually due to drunk driving. So that's a cost of about $1.7 million per life saved.
Besides having pulled the consumer cost from a dark, smelly place, boiling it down to one variable is incredibly dishonest. There's the cost of damaged/destroyed cars, hospital costs, court costs, incarceration costs, etc.

Googling finds estimates of the cost of drunk driving in the US to be over $100 billion per year (the numbers quoted most often were between $114-130 billion). Your $17 billion (an extremely questionable number) per year and paid per new car sold would be a ******* bargain.
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:17 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
Plus the dead simple 100% legal method of drunks just buying an old car

We recently had our "Smog Test" rescinded here in Ontario .. and I know a dozen guys who just switched to old cars (because they are the guys who are always swapping engines and do their own repairs)

OR simply registering the car with an older serial number from the same modle heck *I'VE* done
So there's no inspection where they compare the paperwork to the ID plate?
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:22 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Besides having pulled the consumer cost from a dark, smelly place, boiling it down to one variable is incredibly dishonest. There's the cost of damaged/destroyed cars, hospital costs, court costs, incarceration costs, etc.

Googling finds estimates of the cost of drunk driving in the US to be over $100 billion per year (the numbers quoted most often were between $114-130 billion). Your $17 billion (an extremely questionable number) per year and paid per new car sold would be a ******* bargain.
It would only stop the honest drunks at best though. I can see the new bar parking lot hustle by unsavory types already.
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:24 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
So there's no inspection where they compare the paperwork to the ID plate?
Baby, there is always, but always, a workaround.
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:28 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Okay, what about this? The interlock would be advisory. It would keep you from starting the car if your alcohol level is too high. But you could override it by entering a code. That would take care of an emergency, a defective unit etc. But getting caught driving drunk after disabling the gadget would carry much stiffer penalties.
Not bad. We have hand held brethalyzers now though. And if the selectively drunk driver kills someone, kind of pointless to the deceased.

Tough to litigate good judgement and common sense.
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:29 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It would only stop the honest drunks at best though. I can see the new bar parking lot hustle by unsavory types already.
1. I think you're overestimating the number of sober people ready to step up and literally place a drunk driver on the road.
2. Yeah, no **** some people will game the devices. If there's a perfect system for anything, I haven't seen it yet.
3. I think there are many people who get behind the wheel when they truly believe they're not too drunk to drive who would see this system as a blessing. "I didn't think I drank that much. We only shared three pitchers of beer!" For those people, this could be a wake-up call.
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:31 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
So there's no inspection where they compare the paperwork to the ID plate?
Only when you get the safety done (by your buddy the local mechanic) ... nobody from the government comes to your car and looks at it when you get the license plates
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:32 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
For those people, this could be a wake-up call.
And literally a life-saver.
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:32 PM   #79
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
1. I think you're overestimating the number of sober people ready to step up and literally place a drunk driver on the road.
2. Yeah, no **** some people will game the devices. If there's a perfect system for anything, I haven't seen it yet.
3. I think there are many people who get behind the wheel when they truly believe they're not too drunk to drive who would see this system as a blessing. "I didn't think I drank that much. We only shared three pitchers of beer!" For those people, this could be a wake-up call.
1&2 I think you are being overly optimistic about. 3 is a good point, but a handheld BAC reader would do the same.
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Old 18th October 2019, 12:35 PM   #80
lionking
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Okay all you “constitutional rights” merchants. How do you feel about your taxes paying for the destruction and death wrought by drunk drivers?

I once drove drunk nearly 40 years ago after the birth of my first child. I could easily have killed someone. I welcome devices that would prevent this happening.
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