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Tags Iran incidents , Qasem Soleimani , Trump controversies , US-Iran relations

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Old 4th January 2020, 08:23 AM   #321
The Great Zaganza
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Attacking an Iranian leader is something new for the US - if that was a new option, they could have done it not on Iraqi soil.
At the very least, this was short-sightedly planned and hastily executed.
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Old 4th January 2020, 08:30 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Iran is at war already. Stop pretending they're not.



I think Iran should be legitimately worried about escalation, if they keep attacking US embassies. I think escalation is entirely appropriate, if Iran insists on attacking US embassies. And insists on doing all the other stuff they're doing.

Do you think Iran should continue to attack US interests and allies throughout the middle east without any retaliation or escalation?
Get over it! The Us embassy inTehran was attacked before the current Iranian government existed. No US citizens were killed. The protest ('attack') on the US embassy in Baghdad was by Iraqis protesting the killing of Iraqis in Iraq by the US government without the consent of the Iraqi government. The Iraqi government supported the protests by allowing the protesters access to the embassy. This was nothing to do with Iran.
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Old 4th January 2020, 08:56 AM   #323
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Latest:

US Asked Iran for ‘Proportionate Response’ to Suleimani Assassination: IRGC

Originally Posted by AL Manar
The deputy commander of Iran’s Revolutionary Guards said Washington had asked Tehran to respond in proportion after US killed Commander of IRGC’s Quds Force General Qassem Suleimani.

The Americans “resorted to diplomatic measures… on Friday morning”, few hours after the strike, the Guard’s Rear-Admiral Ali Fadavi said on Iranian state television Friday night.

They “even said that if you want to get revenge, get revenge in proportion to what we did”, he said, as quoted on the broadcaster’s website.

Iran’s Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif said in separate television interview on Friday night that “Switzerland’s envoy transmitted a foolish message from the Americans this morning”.

The Swiss official “was summoned in the evening and received a decisive response in writing… to the Americans’ audacious letter,” Zarif added.

The Swiss foreign ministry confirmed Saturday that its charge d’affaires had handed over a letter from Washington to the Iranians when he was summoned to the foreign ministry on Friday morning. [...]

US-Led Coalition Scales back Iraq Operations, NATO Suspends Training Missions

Originally Posted by Al Manar
[...] “Our first priority is protecting coalition personnel,” a US official told AFP, saying the coalition had “limited” their training and other operations.

“It’s not a halt,” the source said, adding: “We have increased security and defensive measures at Iraqi bases that host coalition troops.”

Surveillance efforts were now focused on potential new attacks instead of the Islamic State group, AFP added, citing the official.

Meanwhile, a NATO spokesman announced the coalition was suspending its training missions in Iraq.

“NATO’s mission is continuing, but training activities are currently suspended,” said the spokesman, Dylan White. [...]

******** their pants. Meanwhile: Judiciary Spokesman: Iran to Sue US at Int'l Courts for Terrorist Attack against General Soleimani

Originally Posted by FARS
TEHRAN (FNA)- Iran's Judiciary Spokesman Gholamhossein Esmayeeli said that his country will file a lawsuit against the US at international courts over the targeted assassination of Commander of IRGC Qods Force Lieutenant General Qassem Soleimani.

"This brutal act was a violation of human rights and all international rules. Martyr Soleimani was the official guest of the Iraqi government officials as a high-ranking (Iranian) official, and a foreign state has committed this crime in Iraq," Esmayeeli said on Saturday.

"The criminal US government's measure to martyr General Soleimani and Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis and their entourage is a terrorist act from legal view point and a clear instance of state terrorism," he added.

Esmayeeli underscored that the judiciary, alongside the foreign ministry and the human rights headquarters will file a complaint against the US at international courts. [...]

How dare they act like civilized people?

It will be interesting to see what comes out of the emergency meeting in Iraq that should take place soon. Don't forget that the guy who died with Soleimani was the deputy head of PMU, which started as a militia but has been integrated into the regular Iraqi army around two years ago. So the US regime commited acts of war against the military leadership of two countries. I hope they decide to declare Yankistani butts illegal on Iraqi ground and take it to the UN as well.
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Old 4th January 2020, 08:56 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Would this have been a valid and legal operation to perform at Heathrow? LAX? Why or why not?
When formulating your answer, bear in mind that an Iraqi general was killed in the strike so if you're going to say "yes" to Heathrow then you have to factor in killing a British general, and if you're going to say "yes" to LAX then you have to factor in killing an American general.
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Old 4th January 2020, 08:59 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Just a reminder we've been doing this for a long time and it is silly to go after Trump for taking out our enemies. It's his job, just like it was Obama's job.
This looks like you're saying that Obama's actions were correct. I fall on the other side - I think that both were wrong.

Which isn't to say that I disagree with the principle of "taking out [your] enemies", just that I think that the methods employed by both were wrong for various reasons.
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Old 4th January 2020, 09:07 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
A jolly good trip down "Let's list off everything bad, dirty, questionable, wrong, evil thing that Iran and America have done to each other" lane helps no possible version of this scenario.

Every time Iran or America ask for some concession or way move forward the other side will always be able to, honestly, pull the "Yeah but whatabouta da time..." card. To what end and for what purpose though?

Iran and America can't go back and time and make those things to have never happened. Are we doomed to never improve our relations because if we do it will leave those things "unpaid" for?

This nihilistic bullcrap where long, complicated, in some cases multi-generational or even longer conflicts are philosophically doomed to continue perpetuity because both sides have committed so much against the other they can never erase the red from their ledgers seems rather defeatist to me.
Sadly it is an all too common a mindset.
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Old 4th January 2020, 09:13 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
In what way is fighting against an occupying army that invaded your (Iraq) country for no good reason terrorism? Attacking US forces in Iraq is legitimate resistance. This is the type of thing that the US supported against Cuba, in Afghanistan against the Russians etc. It is only regarded as terrorism by US citizens because it is an attack on US occupying forces.



Given the teack record of the US (e.g. overthrowing the democratically elected Iranian government), Iran had a legitimate concern about US forces on its border.



Talk of a new Persian empire is US fantasy.
Once there was a legitimate government in the country that allowed the USA troops and so on to be in the country then yes it would be terrorism to fight against those USA assets.
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Old 4th January 2020, 09:16 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think the military necessity has been well established.
It has been claimed to have been necessary but no one has provided any evidence for that.
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Old 4th January 2020, 09:16 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Not by bombing them.
Does it matter whether it was a precision bomb or a precision bullet?
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Old 4th January 2020, 09:19 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Not by bombing them.
And it caused tremendous uproar, and it was in a British territory and the victims were not members of any national army, and...

Yeah you'd almost think it was pretty much entirely different....
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Old 4th January 2020, 09:31 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And it caused tremendous uproar, and it was in a British territory and the victims were not members of any national army, and...

Yeah you'd almost think it was pretty much entirely different....
Yeah, I think people are underestimating the significance of what happened. This was the equivalent of blowing up the Vice President. Even if everything else were equal, that's a whole different deal to killing three terrorists.
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Old 4th January 2020, 09:37 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It has been claimed to have been necessary but no one has provided any evidence for that.
I'm satisifed on the following two points:

- Iran is actively engaged in warfare against the US and its allies.

- This man was a senior planner in the Iranian military, and that he was highly effective in that role.
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Old 4th January 2020, 09:41 AM   #333
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I don't hear much complaint from democrats. Are there any ?
I see the attack could have been very well justified. It could also be Siri misunderstanding Trump on evening's dinner (insert your version of incompetence).
It all depends on what basis was the attack ordered, and how exactly was it ordered and executed. What do democrat military experts say ?
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Old 4th January 2020, 09:45 AM   #334
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NVM. I think I may have missed relevant discussion.
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Old 4th January 2020, 09:50 AM   #335
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There's an interesting article on Daily Beast (did I just write that?):

Why Obama, Bush, and Bibi All Passed on Killing Soleimani

Turns out even Dubya Cheney was rational enough to understand that Soleimani turning into a martyr would be worse than letting him do what he did.

Originally Posted by Daily Beast
[...] According to Patricia Ravalgi, who served as a civilian analyst at U.S. Central Command from 2008 to 2019, concerns at the operational level went beyond declined opportunities to terminate Soleimani. There was often the worry among military planners and Washington policymakers that with Iranian-backed militias and American troops operating in close proximity in Iraq, especially during the campaigns against the so-called Islamic State, Soleimani would be in the wrong place at the wrong time, get killed by accident, “and all hell would break loose.”

“There was even wishful thinking that Soleimani would stay out of Iraq more, to keep such an accident from occurring,” says Ravalgi. [...]
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Old 4th January 2020, 09:58 AM   #336
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"You can't kill So & So because it will turn him into a martyr" is often true, but pointless since it applies to literally everyone with any degree of power and influence. To put it bluntly anyone worth killing is going to someone's martyr.

Every tinpot dictator and terrorist is a martyr to someone after reality catches up with them.

It's a factor to be considered, but not always an over-riding one.
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Old 4th January 2020, 10:00 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
The US has assassinated a major Iranian leader overnight as a "target of opportunity" in an action that, according to CNN, was planned with only Republican members of Congress. Representatives of the Senate and the Minority Leader in the House (McCarthy) were seen leaving the secured area of Mar-A-Lago prior to announcement of the attack.

Key observations:
  • this assassination conveniently drives news about the unredacted emails regarding Trump's personal involvement in the Ukraine Scandal
  • Trump is treating the Speaker of the "People's House" as if she was not a legitimate part of the government process AGAIN

There is no depth to which this treasonous pig "president" will not sink.
He killed Americans and Americans killed him. Sounds fair to me. I wish it had happened sooner.
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Old 4th January 2020, 10:00 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As a pointer to one historical precedent: the UK took out three IRA terrorist suspects as they were strolling down a street in Gibraltar.
So the British government taking out people on British territory is equivalent to the U.S. taking out people in Iraq (which is not U.S. territory)?
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Old 4th January 2020, 10:02 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Do we think there will be a retaliation?

I wonder what the reaction to 'Iran kills US general' would be.
I'll tell you what it won't be. It won't be a strongly worded letter like Obama would do.
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Old 4th January 2020, 10:06 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
NVM. I think I may have missed relevant discussion.

No, you were completely correct.
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Old 4th January 2020, 10:10 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm satisifed on the following two points:

- Iran is actively engaged in warfare against the US and its allies.

- This man was a senior planner in the Iranian military, and that he was highly effective in that role.
Iran is just as much at war with the US as the US and USSR were during the cold war.

By proxy and both sides using terrorist actions against each other on different soils.

Had either the US or the USSR pulled this type of stunt during said cold war we'd all be dead now.
The only reason the US gets away with this type of open assassination is because Iran is nowhere strong enough to actually hurt the US.

What *will* most likely happen is that this will invigorate terrorist retaliatory response in the Middle East or maybe Europe (thanks Trump), and as I mentioned earlier it will give Iran a massive propaganda boost in the Middle East as it is able to play both the martyr cards and the offended party due to the blatant violation of most diplomatic playbooks.
I seriously doubt that you would respond with a 'oh it's just fortunes of war' had this been an Iranian attack on an US general.

As for the spurious argument that killing a general disrupts an army, that may be true in a full on shooting war at the moment of his death, but in this case Iran will have all the time to reorganize, reappoint and plan before doing anything, so nothing will change there. If there was a plan to kill US diplomats, it's still there, except now it will be considered an expected retaliation instead of a vile act of terror.

But as I said, I doubt that the retaliation will be where it belongs, in Washington DC, but rather in a country that is only sideways involved in the US spat with Iran.
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Old 4th January 2020, 10:24 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
When formulating your answer, bear in mind that an Iraqi general was killed in the strike so if you're going to say "yes" to Heathrow then you have to factor in killing a British general, and if you're going to say "yes" to LAX then you have to factor in killing an American general.

I'm confused. Was there actually an Iraqi general killed here? The rest of your post seems to imply this wasn't a typo and that you really meant Iraqi here.
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Old 4th January 2020, 10:32 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I'm confused. Was there actually an Iraqi general killed here? The rest of your post seems to imply this wasn't a typo and that you really meant Iraqi here.
There was an Iranian and an Iraqi general, one of each.
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Old 4th January 2020, 10:46 AM   #344
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Is this a correct list of who was killed? Second general appears to also be Iranian and exact rank is cited as Major General.



https://www.voanews.com/extremism-wa...mani-us-strike
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Old 4th January 2020, 10:47 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I'm confused. Was there actually an Iraqi general killed here? The rest of your post seems to imply this wasn't a typo and that you really meant Iraqi here.
No typo. An Iraqi general was killed in the strike, alongside the Iranian one.

The US killed the general of an ally on that ally's soil, as well as killing a man who had been fighting alongside that ally who was there as a guest - reportedly to attend a funeral service for that ally's troops.
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Old 4th January 2020, 10:49 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Once there was a legitimate government in the country that allowed the USA troops and so on to be in the country then yes it would be terrorism to fight against those USA assets.
And when that happened the Shia militias were integrated into the Iraqi army. At which point responsibility for their actions was that of the Iraqis. Previous 'historic' actions prior to their integration into the new Iraqi regime fall within legitimate resistance to foreign invading forces not terrorism. Most of the alleged US deaths attributed to the Shia militias are prior to this.
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Old 4th January 2020, 11:00 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
There was an Iranian and an Iraqi general, one of each.
Well he's not really just Iraqi general, it's a bit more complicated:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Mahdi_al-Muhandis

Just as Soleimani wasn't 'Iranian general' .. he was general of Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. Their goal (besides defending Islamic regime in Iran) is Islamic Shiite state covering all areas with Shiite population. Main means is tactical and material support of different Shiite militias (most of which are considered terrorist organizations) in the area. Including Iraq.
Muhandis simply was IRGC's man in Iraq. Not even secretly. IRGC helped fight ISIS in Iraq. But when that was solved, the next obstacle is USA. Current anti-US protests and attack on US embassy are most likely part of IRGC's advisory. In which case Soleimani is first in command, and Myhandis firs in command in Iraq. So he was by no means bystander.
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Old 4th January 2020, 11:11 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It's the total lack of evidence that the guy posed a clear and present danger to the US or US Citizens that makes me think this move was extremely stupid and ill thought out.
This is true. But that could also be said about every military conflagration the US has been involved in since the end of WWII.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's literally exactly what he did. The Iranians sent one of their top military commanders to one of their critical theaters of operation, to meet with troops on the ground and coordinate their efforts. And when they did, the US took the shot. As one does, when one has a shot at an enemy commander.
This has been overlooked in the press but the drone strike killed a total of 10 people, including Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis, who was elected to the Iraqi parliament as a member of the al-Dawa Party and was the leader of the Kataib Hezbollah militia. It also killed four other Iraqi officers. Does this mean that we are also at war with Iraq? If the Iraqi people vote for politicians we don't like can we just kill them? The Iraqi Prime Minister himself condemned the attacks,

"The assassination of an Iraqi military commander who holds an official position is considered aggression on Iraq ... and the liquidation of leading Iraqi figures or those from a brotherly country on Iraqi soil is a massive breach of sovereignty"
Iraqi Prime Minister Adil Abdul Mahdi

The Prime Minister attended the funeral procession. Does this make him a terrorist sympathizer?

Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
There's another theory that, let's face it, cannot be discussed here.

Americans elected this jackass because they wanted a wall and no ME wars. As expected, they got no wall and ME wars.
This policy is known as "Invade the world, Invite the world." It never seems to change no matter who is elected. Our national motto should be, Immigration, Imperialism, Insolvency.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Funny though, how Saudi Arabia was also involved with the terrorists before 9/11, but somehow, that just gets waved away and doesn't matter.
The point of the "war on terror" is to allow the US military to attack carte blanche any nation or group that currently opposes its "interests". Saudi Arabia's actual involvement in terrorism(e.g. funding ISIS) is not a concern because they aren't viewed as being opposed to our foreign policy objectives in the Middle-East.

Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
What's the official VDARE position?
I don't know. I don't normally read VDARE for foreign policy insight.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm satisifed on the following two points:

- Iran is actively engaged in warfare against the US and its allies.

- This man was a senior planner in the Iranian military, and that he was highly effective in that role.
Yes, Qasem Soleimani was engaged in warfare against ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Are you conceding that ISIS is a US ally?
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Old 4th January 2020, 11:20 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
No typo. An Iraqi general was killed in the strike, alongside the Iranian one.

Name please? Was it Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis, the first guy listed at the link I cited and also identified by two subsequent posters in this thread?
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Old 4th January 2020, 11:26 AM   #350
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Changing the topic slightly was the assassination an over-response to the attack on the US embassy? Trump has raised the heat so high over Benghazi that the thought that a 'Benghazi" like episode just caused him to demand a dramatic response?
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Old 4th January 2020, 11:27 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You know how Trump didn't warn the UK? Well, you know who he did warn?

Russia & Israel

Know who else?

Random people who happened to be at Mar-A-Largo
I don't believe Trump warned Russia of anything. Apparently, the assassination was discussed with after it occurred.
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Old 4th January 2020, 11:33 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I find myself feeling incredibly ill informed. There's US troops sitting halfway across the world doing something or another, but I'm really not sure what. Now, there have been protests, and so a US airstrike takes out an Iranian general in Iraq.

My first question was, "What was an Iranian general doing in Iraq?" If the answer was any variation on "conducting a war", it's hard to get too bent out of shape about him becoming a casualty. That happens in war.
Why are USAian troops in Iraq?
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Old 4th January 2020, 11:34 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Vice president Mike Pence tweeted:


Is even a tiny part of this true? I know the actual quantity of 9/11 hijackers was 19 (not 12). Did any of them even get smuggled into Afghanistan?
No, none of it. As a general rule, when a Trumpette says something, assume it's a lie.
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Old 4th January 2020, 11:48 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm satisifed on the following two points:

- Iran is actively engaged in warfare against the US and its allies.

- This man was a senior planner in the Iranian military, and that he was highly effective in that role.
That can't be the necessity as this general has been traveling around the ME for decades in range of American forces many, many times.
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Old 4th January 2020, 11:48 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Changing the topic slightly was the assassination an over-response to the attack on the US embassy? Trump has raised the heat so high over Benghazi that the thought that a 'Benghazi" like episode just caused him to demand a dramatic response?
I don't think Trump has a coherent enough personal or political philosophy to plan anything out that consistently.

He's pure id, never running on any reason or motivation then "Whatever base desire is in my head right at this moment."
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Old 4th January 2020, 11:53 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
I'll tell you what it won't be. It won't be a strongly worded letter like Obama would do.
Actually it now appears that it is Trump's team that has sent a letter asking Iraq not to be too mad.
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Old 4th January 2020, 11:56 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Why are USAian troops in Iraq?
Because George W Bush allowed himself to be manipulated by Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, and John Bolton.
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Old 4th January 2020, 12:02 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Changing the topic slightly was the assassination an over-response to the attack on the US embassy? Trump has raised the heat so high over Benghazi that the thought that a 'Benghazi" like episode just caused him to demand a dramatic response?
Or someone could have quite easily have manipulated him "Obama wouldn't have agreed to this " and Trump would be banging his desk to make it happen.
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Old 4th January 2020, 12:06 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Senator Udall, who was briefed after the action, said in an interview that the supposed imminent threat was not part of the briefing, and he's dubious about it.
I don't believe there was "imminent" threat... unless information I'm not aware of comes to light. I do believe there was a continuing threat, and Suleimani was critical to it. The question is- was the political price to be paid to high? Or maybe even prohibitive.
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Old 4th January 2020, 12:07 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Name please? Was it Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis, the first guy listed at the link I cited and also identified by two subsequent posters in this thread?
Dude, that's really not that hard to find. It's mentioned in Wiki page I linked.
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