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Tags Russia incidents , Russia issues , Russia politics , vladimir putin

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Old 16th January 2020, 12:00 PM   #41
dudalb
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think realistically, Putin is content with the titles he has.

Again, part of what keeps Putin in office is that he is in fact popular with a lot of Russian people. This is a very powerful advantage, because it means the oligarchy can afford to indulge in many of the trappings and functions of a democratically-elected government. I'm sure there are a number of Russians who would welcome a return to Tsardom. But it's bound to be a delicate subject. The last thing any of the power elites in Russia want to do right now is queer the play by reaching farther than they can grasp.

And Putin strikes me as being pragmatic enough to understand and appreciate that it's the power that matters, not the title that goes with it. Kind of like a Reverse Trump.

Trump supporter praised Putin.What a surprise.
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Old 16th January 2020, 12:07 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Putin is not eligable to run for president again in 2024 so he's stripping the office of power and giving it to the office of the Prime Minister instead.
There are no constitutional limits to the number of terms a Russian Prime Minister can have. Putin was already one for four years when he ran out of presidential terms the first time around.

A slightly less bad way to do the same would be to just remove the constitutional term limits altogether. He's doing basically the same thing but in the meantime he's setting an even worse precendens for the future of Russia. Plus the pretense serves no one.

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He a Czar in everything but name.
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Old 16th January 2020, 12:34 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Trump supporter praised Putin.What a surprise.
I think you're misinterpreting. I see nothing in that post that's praising Putin.
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Old 16th January 2020, 12:47 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
After the fall of the Soviet Union, a kleptocratic oligarchy (oligarchic kleptocracy?) emerged from the ruins. Vladimir Putin is their Chief Executive Fixer. As long as he uses the power of the government to protect the interests of the oligarchs, they will see to it that the government protects the power of Vladimir Putin.

And, in addition to being popular with the oligarchs, Putin is also popular with a lot of Russians. Even elected officials who want to take a stand agains the oligarchs still have to face electoral reality as well as criminal reality.
Putin despises the multi-millionaire oligarchs, viewing them as corrupt and not true communists.
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Old 16th January 2020, 12:52 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think you're misinterpreting. I see nothing in that post that's praising Putin.
I think recognizing that Putin has some qualities that make him an effective Fixer for the Russian Oligarchy counts as Incorrect Thought, or something.
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Old 16th January 2020, 12:53 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Putin despises the multi-millionaire oligarchs, viewing them as corrupt and not true communists.
Bless your heart, Vixen.
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Old 16th January 2020, 01:19 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Putin despises the multi-millionaire oligarchs, viewing them as corrupt and not true communists.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Bless your heart, Vixen.
Yup.

Putin despises the multi-millionaire oligarchs, viewing them as prey who are too poor and powerless to defend themselves against even his nominally personal resources let alone the wealth and resources that he commands for his personal use.
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Old 16th January 2020, 11:34 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
He a Czar in everything but name.
I do wonder what his plan after his eventual demise is.

I imagine it's to be taxidermied and displayed on Red Square, like Lenin and (for a while) Stalin.

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Old 16th January 2020, 11:42 PM   #49
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Not before his face is injected with multiple vials of Botox and Juvederm Voluma to at least keep his tough guy act alive.
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Old 17th January 2020, 04:42 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
After the fall of the Soviet Union, a kleptocratic oligarchy (oligarchic kleptocracy?) emerged from the ruins. Vladimir Putin is their Chief Executive Fixer. As long as he uses the power of the government to protect the interests of the oligarchs, they will see to it that the government protects the power of Vladimir Putin.

And, in addition to being popular with the oligarchs, Putin is also popular with a lot of Russians. Even elected officials who want to take a stand agains the oligarchs still have to face electoral reality as well as criminal reality.
I don't know how popular he is with the oligarchs though, there was a rumour that one of the first things he did, when he came to power in 2000, was to call a meeting with them, and explain a new "25%" rule to them.

They were to pay him 25% of their earnings (and stay out of politics), in exchange for him letting them keep up their looting. Were they to run afoul of this rule, well... a quick trial for tax fiddling or embezzlement could quickly be arranged, with the assets of the accused reverting to the Russian state.

Last edited by KDLarsen; 17th January 2020 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 17th January 2020, 05:41 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yup.

Putin despises the multi-millionaire oligarchs, viewing them as prey who are too poor and powerless to defend themselves against even his nominally personal resources let alone the wealth and resources that he commands for his personal use.
You can sneer but that is Putin's stance. He really doesn't like these guys.
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Old 17th January 2020, 05:43 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Not before his face is injected with multiple vials of Botox and Juvederm Voluma to at least keep his tough guy act alive.
He is a tough guy: fishes, swims in icy cold water, plays ice hockey and is ultra fit for a man of his age. Compare and contrast to Boris.
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Old 17th January 2020, 06:49 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You can sneer but that is Putin's stance. He really doesn't like these guys.
How do. you know this?
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Old 17th January 2020, 07:20 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
How do. you know this?
BBC documentary about him.
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Old 17th January 2020, 02:57 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
BBC documentary about him.
Saying that Putin despises the oligarchs because they aren't true communists implies that Putin is. That's pretty far out there. Putin doesn't despise the oligarchs, he's one of them and he's fine with those who support him or don't oppose him. Those that do he forces into compliance one way or another.
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Old 17th January 2020, 04:19 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by ajelehtija View Post
Saying that Putin despises the oligarchs because they aren't true communists implies that Putin is. That's pretty far out there. Putin doesn't despise the oligarchs, he's one of them and he's fine with those who support him or don't oppose him. Those that do he forces into compliance one way or another.
Yup.

The oligarchs helped Putin come to power. Without Boris Berezovsky's influence in particular it's unlikely Yeltsin would have ever chosen Putin as prime minister and put him on the path to the presidency.
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Old 19th January 2020, 06:27 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by ajelehtija View Post
Saying that Putin despises the oligarchs because they aren't true communists implies that Putin is. That's pretty far out there. Putin doesn't despise the oligarchs, he's one of them and he's fine with those who support him or don't oppose him. Those that do he forces into compliance one way or another.
Putin is an admirer of Stalin (the good version, presumably).

Coming from lowly stock himself, I believe him when he claims he resents the oligarchs and the corruption that surrounds them.
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Old 19th January 2020, 07:01 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Putin is an admirer of Stalin (the good version, presumably).



Coming from lowly stock himself, I believe him when he claims he resents the oligarchs and the corruption that surrounds them.
The oligarchs also come from "lowly stock" why would he resent his fellow lowly stock?
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Old 19th January 2020, 07:48 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Putin is an admirer of Stalin (the good version, presumably).

Coming from lowly stock himself, I believe him when he claims he resents the oligarchs and the corruption that surrounds them.
I think it's possible that he does resent them, but he also needs them. IIRC early on Putin made an agreement with the oligarchs that in exchange for support and giving up political ambitions he would protect them. The corruption has also been vital to Putin's rule as laws going unenforced has allowed him to suddenly enforce them and put oligarchs in prison if they do develop political ambitions in opposition to Putin.

Stalin is admired in Russia primarily because he won the war and admiration for him is not an indication for being a communist. Putin being a communist is a totally unfounded assertion whether he admires Stalin or not.
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Old 19th January 2020, 08:32 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Coming from lowly stock himself, I believe him when he claims he resents the oligarchs and the corruption that surrounds them.
I don't, not for a minute. The corruption exists because he allows it, and he allows it because it benefits him too.
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Old 19th January 2020, 09:17 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Coming from lowly stock himself, I believe him when he claims he resents the oligarchs and the corruption that surrounds them.
Genetic and class bigotry are not compelling arguments.
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Old 19th January 2020, 10:54 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by ajelehtija View Post
I think it's possible that he does resent them, but he also needs them. IIRC early on Putin made an agreement with the oligarchs that in exchange for support and giving up political ambitions he would protect them. The corruption has also been vital to Putin's rule as laws going unenforced has allowed him to suddenly enforce them and put oligarchs in prison if they do develop political ambitions in opposition to Putin.

Stalin is admired in Russia primarily because he won the war and admiration for him is not an indication for being a communist. Putin being a communist is a totally unfounded assertion whether he admires Stalin or not.
One doesn't resent people who are far below you in the area you are competing in.


I was being serious when I said I could believe he despised them because he regards them as prey. The oligarchs know that they're operating and free (or indeed breathing) on Putin's sufferance.

He forced them to each give 25% of their wealth to him.
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Old 19th January 2020, 11:24 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The oligarchs also come from "lowly stock" why would he resent his fellow lowly stock?
Oh well. As those of us who've made any kind of stock know, the scum tends to rise to the top...
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Old 19th January 2020, 11:29 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
One doesn't resent people who are far below you in the area you are competing in.


I was being serious when I said I could believe he despised them because he regards them as prey. The oligarchs know that they're operating and free (or indeed breathing) on Putin's sufferance.

He forced them to each give 25% of their wealth to him.
How did Putin amass so much power in a corrupt and changing political situation, to be able to prey on the oligarchs? It isn't divine right. It isn't communist idealism.

It's military might, in part. But the Generals are just as corrupt as the rest of them. Where did Putin get the resources to buy them off? I say it's the other way around.

Putin's opposition to the other oligarchs is half PR stunt for the masses, and half one mob boss keeping the others in line and charging them taxes.
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Old 19th January 2020, 12:38 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Interesting, especially the bit about weakening his successor. I guess he's starting to feel his age and is worried the next guy won't be the philosopher king that he is.
Nope. He's setting up to be the next prime minister and still be top dog.

Republican legislators in several states have pulled the same trick when they lost the governorships. Almost like the GOP were following someone's plan...
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Old 19th January 2020, 04:50 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Nope. He's setting up to be the next prime minister and still be top dog.

Republican legislators in several states have pulled the same trick when they lost the governorships. Almost like the GOP were following someone's plan...

In California, when an election tied their state house, the Democrats passed a law just before they lost power that the previous party that had power got to have the speaker.

Do not send for whom the bell scumbags. It scumbags for all.
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Old 20th January 2020, 06:57 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Putin despises the multi-millionaire oligarchs, viewing them as corrupt and not true communists.
WTF? I mean I figure he views the multi-millionaire oligarchs as small fry's beneath his notice, it is only billionaires and such like him that matter.
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Old 20th January 2020, 10:20 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How did Putin amass so much power in a corrupt and changing political situation, to be able to prey on the oligarchs? It isn't divine right. It isn't communist idealism.



It's military might, in part. But the Generals are just as corrupt as the rest of them. Where did Putin get the resources to buy them off? I say it's the other way around.



Putin's opposition to the other oligarchs is half PR stunt for the masses, and half one mob boss keeping the others in line and charging them taxes.
He used the intelligence service.
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Old 20th January 2020, 12:03 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How did Putin amass so much power in a corrupt and changing political situation, to be able to prey on the oligarchs? It isn't divine right. It isn't communist idealism.

It's military might, in part. But the Generals are just as corrupt as the rest of them. Where did Putin get the resources to buy them off? I say it's the other way around.

Putin's opposition to the other oligarchs is half PR stunt for the masses, and half one mob boss keeping the others in line and charging them taxes.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
He used the intelligence service.
These are not incompatible. Someone had to get to the top, and in a corrupt and changing political situation, it would be someone with the means and inclination to ruthlessly wield power on the way up.
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Old 20th January 2020, 12:26 PM   #70
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Who knows how power the rejuvenated State Council may have, an institution created during the first year of Putin's presidency but remained largely untouched until now.

In all likelihood that is where Putin might go after his term is up in 2024, or possibly even sooner. Security services - check, oligarchs - check, deep state bureaucrats - check, approval rating - check. The relative stability of his presidency has been good for him. Probably nobody will have to pardon him for his crimes like he did for Yeltsin.
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Old 20th January 2020, 12:51 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by CJW View Post
But how will he maintain control without the bureaucracy?
He IS the Senate now.
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Old 20th January 2020, 02:24 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Who knows how power the rejuvenated State Council may have, an institution created during the first year of Putin's presidency but remained largely untouched until now.

In all likelihood that is where Putin might go after his term is up in 2024, or possibly even sooner. Security services - check, oligarchs - check, deep state bureaucrats - check, approval rating - check. The relative stability of his presidency has been good for him. Probably nobody will have to pardon him for his crimes like he did for Yeltsin.
Not really a million-dollar challenge material, but I'm guessing it will turn out to be all the power that matters.
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 20th January 2020, 08:49 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I would welcome it if someone could explain to me what this means.
What this actually means is not fuly known yet, but it is almost certainly about Putin trying to protect himself from his successor (whoever that turns out to be) and maintain informal but also formal influence on the state even after he "retires".

It's simple: to keep in power Putin has had to maintain classical corrupt patronage networks. It's not cheap to run a corrupt rundown ******** like Russia simply because ambitious politicians, beurocrats and even ranking members of the military are not content with living on their official salaries. They know how much wealth is ready for the taking.

So he buys them off, coopts those who are willing to tolerate his leadership and punishes those who actively undermines his rule. This was his "power vertical": the power and the money flows down from him. All at the public's expense of course.

In the end, unless he is intent on ruling until his death, he will seek to make some arrangement to try and ensure that he (and the wealth he stole) is safe from anyone trying to settle old scores or make an example of him.
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Old 20th January 2020, 09:05 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
In California, when an election tied their state house, the Democrats passed a law just before they lost power that the previous party that had power got to have the speaker.

Do not send for whom the bell scumbags. It scumbags for all.
Bothsider-ism is not an argument.
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"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28
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Old 20th January 2020, 11:29 PM   #75
Venom
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Putin concern-trolling the world yet again:

Quote:
Speaking Saturday while on a visit to his hometown of St. Petersburg, Putin said he understood peoples alarm but that he doesn’t want Russia to return to the Soviet-era practice of rulers dying in office without a succession plan.“

In my view, it would be very worrying to return to the situation of the mid-1980s when heads of state one by one remained in power until the end of their days, [and] left office without having secured necessary conditions for a transition of power,” Putin said.“

So, thank you very much, but I think it's better not to return to the situation of the mid-1980s,” he added.
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Old 21st January 2020, 06:17 AM   #76
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Putin concern-trolling the world yet again:
He calls himself "ruler"? And doesn't see Russia as having established mechanisms for installing new leadership? Reads like he's openly admitting to being a dictator.
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Old 21st January 2020, 08:08 AM   #77
jimbob
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
He calls himself "ruler"? And doesn't see Russia as having established mechanisms for installing new leadership? Reads like he's openly admitting to being a dictator.
Damn, but Putin is highly able at concern trolling.

The implicit acknowledgement is part of the message.
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OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 21st January 2020, 08:28 AM   #78
Darat
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
He calls himself "ruler"? And doesn't see Russia as having established mechanisms for installing new leadership? Reads like he's openly admitting to being a dictator.
You'd almost think they didn't have free and open elections!
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Old 21st January 2020, 03:15 PM   #79
Childlike Empress
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SouthFront details the new government which is in place as of today.
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Old 21st January 2020, 03:18 PM   #80
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
He used the intelligence service.
So? The intelligence service is corrupt too. How did he convince them to back his play?
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