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Old 27th January 2020, 06:09 PM   #1
webfusion
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Deal, or No Deal? (Palestinian State)

OK, let's get going on this thread --- White House announcement is scheduled for noon tomorrow (1-28) regarding the Deal of the Century.

With both Benny's in DC, the President intends to release his plan for peace.

From what I've heard, it contains MAPS. Oy Vey. I hope that Trump didn't draw the new borders on those maps with a Sharpie.

(For reference, the Sykes-Picot boundaries were drawn on maps with thick blue and red grease pencils, and when U-N surveyors in June 2000 went to determine the actual border between Israel and Lebanon and Syria, they found that these pencil lines actually covered many meters on the ground, to full scale).
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Old 27th January 2020, 07:20 PM   #2
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It appears that the "deal" was reached with absolutely no input from the Palestinians. The only people who would talk to Kushner were hard right Israeli officials and their US donors. So, in conclusion, I do not see this going well.
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Old 27th January 2020, 08:24 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
It appears that the "deal" was reached with absolutely no input from the Palestinians. The only people who would talk to Kushner were hard right Israeli officials and their US donors. So, in conclusion, I do not see this going well.
Quote:
In his remarks, Trump said he hoped Netanyahu would implement the plan in the next few weeks. It was not clear if he meant Israel unilaterally imposing the proposals or persuading the Palestinians to agree within that timeframe.

Later on Monday, Gantz said he had held a “superb” meeting with Trump. “The president’s peace plan is a significant and historic milestone, indeed,” he said. “Immediately after the elections, I will work toward implementing it from within a stable functioning Israeli government, in tandem with the other countries in our region.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...etanyahu-gantz

Apparently the Palestinian people don't have a choice. This "peace" will be imposed upon them wheter they want it or not.
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Old 27th January 2020, 08:44 PM   #4
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A) Magical thinking.

B) Both these men want to take the heat off themselves.

C) It was puke-worthy when Bibi was going on and on about what a wonderful friend of Israel Trump was.


The NPR/PBS discussion consensus was this was dead at the starting line. As to be expected, the Palestinians were completely left out of any discussions.
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Old 27th January 2020, 08:48 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...etanyahu-gantz

Apparently the Palestinian people don't have a choice. This "peace" will be imposed upon them wheter they want it or not.
Because I can't deal with any more of this until later, can someone summarize for me how imposing this on Palestinians will be any different from what Israel currently imposes on Palestinians?

I'm guessing Israel simply takes more land and given Trump is involved, maybe the builds more wall.
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:12 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
OK, let's get going on this thread --- White House announcement is scheduled for noon tomorrow (1-28) regarding the Deal of the Century.

With both Benny's in DC, the President intends to release his plan for peace.

From what I've heard, it contains MAPS. Oy Vey. I hope that Trump didn't draw the new borders on those maps with a Sharpie.
They desperately need to get points other than Bolton's bombshell relevations in the news, to take the heat off Senate to subpoena him. Trump announced The Deal of the Century on the matter before.

https://studies.aljazeera.net/en/rep...070351751.html

This time it's The Deal of the Century and a Map.

Yay.

Quote:
(For reference, the Sykes-Picot boundaries were drawn on maps with thick blue and red grease pencils, and when U-N surveyors in June 2000 went to determine the actual border between Israel and Lebanon and Syria, they found that these pencil lines actually covered many meters on the ground, to full scale).
Well, duh.

Honestly, the Skyes-Picot boundaries make far more sense than people give them credit for. There are many who advocate for "ethnic maps", but this is out of ignorance.

Here's why.

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Old 28th January 2020, 02:01 AM   #7
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My guess is that if the Palestinians refuse to participate in negotiations based on this document Trump will impose unilateral sanctions which will make things in the West Bank more like they currently are in Gaza. I am not sure that sanctions in Cuba, Iran, Korea etc. appear to be very effective at promoting change.
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Old 28th January 2020, 02:56 AM   #8
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
My guess is that if the Palestinians refuse to participate in negotiations based on this document Trump will impose unilateral sanctions which will make things in the West Bank more like they currently are in Gaza. I am not sure that sanctions in Cuba, Iran, Korea etc. appear to be very effective at promoting change.
Palestinians refuse to participate in negotiations because if peace was signed the Palestinian leadership would suddenly have to take responsibility for:
1. not cleansing the area of Jews, as promised for generations
2. not winning the entire "Palestine", as promised for generations
3. the dismal state of Palestine, despite untold billions of foreign funds

It turns out that having a scapegoat for all your maladministration is a one way street. The moment Israel is no longer useful in this manner the Palestinian government is expected to improve the lives of their citizens. This means less of their siphoned foreign aid ends up in Swiss bank accounts, which is the sole reason why anyone wants to be a Palestinian leader in the first place.

This is the key driver of the conflict. Until this is resolved there can be no peace in the Middle East.

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Old 28th January 2020, 06:24 AM   #9
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I believe there is a connection between the White House presenting the Peace Deal and the DOJ withholding the Kushner interview with Mueller - because it will contain inappropriate contacts between Jared and MBS and Israeli.
Releasing these documents would discredit the Peace Deal even more than it will on its own.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:33 AM   #10
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Damn right Trump shouldn't support Palestine. He turned Anakin to the dark side
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:12 AM   #11
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This AP article (which I linked to on Snopes) seems to have the most details so far:

Trump Middle East Peace Plan Calls for Palestinian State, Settlement Freeze

Quote:
President Donald Trump’s long-awaited Middle East peace plan calls for the creation of a State of Palestine with its capital in portions of east Jerusalem, ending speculation as to whether his administration, in preparing a proposal without input from Palestinian leaders, would abandon a “two-state resolution” to the conflict.

...the plan to be unveiled on Tuesday more than doubles the territory currently under Palestinian control, although it also recognizes Israeli sovereignty over major settlement blocs in the West Bank, something to which the Palestinians will almost certainly object....

The plan does call for a four-year freeze in new Israeli settlement construction, during which time details of a comprehensive agreement would be negotiated, according to the officials who spoke on condition of anonymity ahead of Trump’s announcement. However, it was not immediately clear if the freeze could be extended if a final deal is not concluded in the four years.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:53 AM   #12
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According to Fox news, his "plan" involves building a tunnel between Gaza and the West Bank.

Looking at this map, the closest points between the two appear to be about 40km apart.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...erritories.jpg

That's doable, but not easy. You also have to wonder what Israelis in general will think about such a tunnel running under a big chunk of their country.
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Old 28th January 2020, 01:10 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Palestinians refuse to participate in negotiations because if peace was signed the Palestinian leadership would suddenly have to take responsibility for:
1. not cleansing the area of Jews, as promised for generations
2. not winning the entire "Palestine", as promised for generations
3. the dismal state of Palestine, despite untold billions of foreign funds

It turns out that having a scapegoat for all your maladministration is a one way street. The moment Israel is no longer useful in this manner the Palestinian government is expected to improve the lives of their citizens. This means less of their siphoned foreign aid ends up in Swiss bank accounts, which is the sole reason why anyone wants to be a Palestinian leader in the first place.

This is the key driver of the conflict. Until this is resolved there can be no peace in the Middle East.

McHrozni
The situation is complex. There may be some truth in what you say, but not the whole truth. Many Palestinians are Israeli citizens but are second class citizens because they are not Jewish. Yet the reality is that two thousand years ago most would have been Jewish, then some became Christian, then some became Muslim, but they are the same people as have always lived there. Perhaps more genetically native than many of the Ashkenazi who immigrated. What they want is not to remove the Jews from Israel but to have a state that does not leave non-Jews as second class Israelis.

The US has provided over $100,000,000 dollars in aid to Israel far more than has been provided to Palestine.

It is not as if there are not concerns about corruption in the Israeli administration.
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Old 28th January 2020, 01:26 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The US has provided over $100,000,000 dollars in aid to Israel far more than has been provided to Palestine.
Unlike Israel, Palestine doesn't exist. There's a proto-Palestine, in the form of the Palestinian Authority, and the Hamas regime in Gaza. But these are -

- recent things, so aren't going to have the same history of aid receipts as a nation that's been around for fifty years;

- actively opposed to Israel, so not likely to get a lot of military aid or other pricey items anyway; and

- literally terrorist organizations, and so not likely to get a lot of aid at all.

Israel and "Palestine" are not morally, politically, economically, ideologically, legally, historically, or philosophically equivalent. There is no rational basis for thinking they should receive equivalent amounts of aid.
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Old 28th January 2020, 02:35 PM   #15
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If you asked my opinion about the Israel/Palestine situation, I would have said that the majority of blame rests on the Palestinians. While Israel wasn't blameless (e.g. their expansion of settlements was something that should have stopped), I felt the Palestinians continuing use of terror tactics and the corruptness of the ruling parties were by far the more significant roadblock to producing peace.

But now, when I see this peace plan, pushed by Donald J. "racist dogwhistle" Trump and Benjamin "The Fraudster" Netanyahu, I am suddenly more sympathetic to the palestinians.
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Old 28th January 2020, 03:34 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Unlike Israel, Palestine doesn't exist. There's a proto-Palestine, in the form of the Palestinian Authority, and the Hamas regime in Gaza. But these are -

- recent things, so aren't going to have the same history of aid receipts as a nation that's been around for fifty years;

- actively opposed to Israel, so not likely to get a lot of military aid or other pricey items anyway; and

- literally terrorist organizations, and so not likely to get a lot of aid at all.

Israel and "Palestine" are not morally, politically, economically, ideologically, legally, historically, or philosophically equivalent. There is no rational basis for thinking they should receive equivalent amounts of aid.
But Palestine did exist before Israel*. Some of it was taken to form Israel. More of it was taken by Israel by force. It is the policy of the current Israeli government to prevent a Palestinian state, in contrast Palestinians have accepted the concept of Israel. Israel was partly founded by terrorists** many of whom became members of the Israeli government. Israel has killed far more unarmed Palestinian civilians than Palestinians have killed Israeli civilians. One country has snipers shoot people who are peacefully protesting. Yes I would agree there is no moral equivalence. Why are the armed forces of one side 'good', and the other side 'evil'? Why are Israeli missiles and bullets and bombs legitimate and those of Palestinians criminal?

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_for_Palestine
** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
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Old 28th January 2020, 03:42 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
If you asked my opinion about the Israel/Palestine situation, I would have said that the majority of blame rests on the Palestinians. While Israel wasn't blameless (e.g. their expansion of settlements was something that should have stopped), I felt the Palestinians continuing use of terror tactics and the corruptness of the ruling parties were by far the more significant roadblock to producing peace.

But now, when I see this peace plan, pushed by Donald J. "racist dogwhistle" Trump and Benjamin "The Fraudster" Netanyahu, I am suddenly more sympathetic to the palestinians.

Plenty of blame to go around.
And,yeah, this latest peace plan stinks on ice. The mere fact it was produced without ANY input from the Palestinians would doom it. Reminds me of the Sykes Picot agreement where the Mid East was carved up between France and Great Britian without anybody bothering to consult the inhabitants. Did not work in 1918, will not work now.
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Old 28th January 2020, 05:46 PM   #18
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If I were Abbas, I'd tell Trump that he should consult his experts on the region to help him understand why his plan is unworkable. Then, I would suggest the Kushner boy not play in adult games.

Trump wants the Palestinians to respond with false bravado. What he won't be able to deal with is being patronized.
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Old 28th January 2020, 07:05 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
If I were Abbas, I'd tell Trump that he should consult his experts on the region to help him understand why his plan is unworkable. Then, I would suggest the Kushner boy not play in adult games.

Trump wants the Palestinians to respond with false bravado. What he won't be able to deal with is being patronized.
You are right, but Abbas does not to seem tohave the brains to do that.
One of the tragedies is that the Palestinian people have had such crappy leadership. From a corrupt Arafat to the current leaders..both Hamas and the PLO...it has been really, really, bad.
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Old 29th January 2020, 02:30 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
But Palestine did exist before Israel*.
As an area, not as an Arab, Muslim nation-state, which is what many seem to believe.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Some of it was taken to form Israel.
More was taken to form Jordan. Strangely, virtually none of the Palestinian Arab supporters seem to have any problem with that.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post

More of it was taken by Israel by force.
As a way of ensuring their security, after having been repeatedly attacked by coalitions of their ("peaceful", "innocent", Muslim) neighbours, who were intent on wiping them off the map. In other words, legitimate self-defence. All the Arabs had to do was stop attacking Israel, something they seem unable to do, despite being so peaceful and innocent and all.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
It is the policy of the current Israeli government to prevent a Palestinian state,
And yet Netanyahu is supporting Trump's plan, which explicitly calls for a Palestinian state. [/quote]

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
in contrast Palestinians have accepted the concept of Israel.
Really? That must come as startling news to Islamic Jihad, who have a stated policy of never accepting the concept of Israel.
It must also come as something of a surprise to the 54% of Palestinian Arabs who rejected a two state solution when polled.


Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Israel was partly founded by terrorists** many of whom became members of the Israeli government.
Cheap shot. Two words: Nelson Mandela.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Israel has killed far more unarmed Palestinian civilians than Palestinians have killed Israeli civilians.
Well, that's not for want of trying on the part of the Palestinian Arabs.
It's also due for the most part to the aggression of Hamas and Islamic Jihad (5,000 plus rockets fired at Israel to date), which they know will invite Israeli retaliation- simple solution: stop firing rockets- and to their policy of siting said rocket launchers in civilian areas, whilst forcibly preventing those unfortunates from leaving. This use of human shields is a crime against humanity, that is largely ignored by pro-Palestinian apologists.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
One country has snipers shoot people who are peacefully protesting.
The vast majority of those shot were members of Hamas, who were ordered to attack the border, in the full knowledge that they would be fired on.
Once again, a criminal act, once again glossed over.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Yes I would agree there is no moral equivalence. Why are the armed forces of one side 'good', and the other side 'evil'? Why are Israeli missiles and bullets and bombs legitimate and those of Palestinians criminal?
I'm not sure where you're getting this simplistic good guy/bad guy idea from, but it certainly isn't what I believe. There is good and bad on both sides. You are, for whatever reason, ignoring the concept of legitimate self-defence. The vast majority of Israeli attacks are in response to previous Palestinian Arab attacks. If the leaders of Gaza would stop using their populations as sacrificial pawns in their war against the Jews, most of the fighting would stop.
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Old 29th January 2020, 03:24 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The situation is complex. There may be some truth in what you say, but not the whole truth. Many Palestinians are Israeli citizens but are second class citizens because they are not Jewish.
Evidence?

Quote:
Yet the reality is that two thousand years ago most would have been Jewish, then some became Christian, then some became Muslim, but they are the same people as have always lived there. Perhaps more genetically native than many of the Ashkenazi who immigrated.
Sure, if by "immigrated" you mean "got evicted by force". There has been substantial Arab migration into the region since 8th century C.E. however and modern-day Palestinians do not consider themselves to be the same nation as Israeli Jews. They also do not speak the same languague.

In other words, just about everything you claim is patently false.

Quote:
What they want is not to remove the Jews from Israel but to have a state that does not leave non-Jews as second class Israelis.
Got any evidence of that?

Because I can show you quite a bit of evidence that Arabs in general are very comfortable by removing Jews from their countries. They've done it as recently as 1960 and now want to take their adoptive homeland too, in the name of equality.

Quote:
The US has provided over $100,000,000 dollars in aid to Israel far more than has been provided to Palestine.
I think the USA is soverign and free to decide whom, if anyone, they give their own money to. Besides, the only reason USA allied themselves in Israel in the first place was the Arab oil embargo in 1973. Before that the main allies of the country were UK and France. This is conveniently left out of discussion most of the time.

Quote:
It is not as if there are not concerns about corruption in the Israeli administration.
It's not as if the concerns about corruption in Israel would register as a rounding error in corruption in Palestine.

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Old 29th January 2020, 06:36 AM   #22
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...and that's why any plan that just ignores input from one of the parties will utterly fail.



This situation is a mess, has been a mess for longer than most of us have been alive, and has been made messier over time by actions on both sides. It won't get better until both sides sit down and come up with a solution that they can all live with. This plan isn't that.
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Old 29th January 2020, 06:38 AM   #23
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What's in it for Saudi Arabia?
Did Kushner promise them nuclear reactors?
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Old 29th January 2020, 07:16 AM   #24
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There will never be a solution to the Israel/Palestinian issue.

Pushing aside who's "right" in any useful or meaningful sense of the term, both sides consider the other side to have committed so many wrongs that no solution will feel right because someone is not being punished enough.
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Old 29th January 2020, 07:24 AM   #25
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Just judging by the back and forth in this thread I can't imagine there being a successful one-sided conversation either, to join the chorus saying it already.

I listened to an interview on the way home yesterday from an Ambassador of Palestine who basically said, unofficially, that Trump and Bibi can take this plan and stuff it. They weren't going to honor it. He also referred to both of them being in deep legal trouble, and that he feels it's directly related to this deal. Which I agree with wholeheartedly.
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Old 29th January 2020, 09:14 AM   #26
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One issue is that Israel has yet to figure out is that in the long run, the establishment of settlements in the West Bank benefits the Palestinian ambitions more than it benefits Israel. That seems counter-intuitive, but think it through:

As the settlements get bigger, West Bank gets subdivided into smaller and smaller chunks. That makes the two state solution less and less feasible. If there can't be two states, there will be one, and Apartheid is unsustainable. As it is, the "Deal of the Century" map already bears strong comparison to the Bantustans of apartheid-era South Africa. The establishment of Israeli settlements will eventually force the recognition of a single nation in Israel and West Bank. It will take a few more generations before that comes to pass, but it seems more inevitable every day.

Last edited by crescent; 29th January 2020 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 29th January 2020, 09:19 AM   #27
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Again someone get God on the phone and ask him which of the two tribes of illiterate pre-Bronze age goat herders he promised this strip of desert scrub land to, that will solve the problem.
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Old 29th January 2020, 11:45 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I listened to an interview on the way home yesterday from an Ambassador of Palestine who basically said, unofficially, that Trump and Bibi can take this plan and stuff it. They weren't going to honor it.
There's no love to be lost between me and DJ Trump/Bibi, but Palestinians said pretty much the same for every peace plan since the inception of the nation.

Ineptitude and hidden agendas aside, I do doubt you can put this one down on DJ Trump and Bibi. They did it no favors and their respective legal issues harmed their position sure, but it was dead in the water before their asses began to matter.

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Old 30th January 2020, 01:08 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
One issue is that Israel has yet to figure out is that in the long run, the establishment of settlements in the West Bank benefits the Palestinian ambitions more than it benefits Israel. That seems counter-intuitive, but think it through:

As the settlements get bigger, West Bank gets subdivided into smaller and smaller chunks. That makes the two state solution less and less feasible. If there can't be two states, there will be one, and Apartheid is unsustainable. As it is, the "Deal of the Century" map already bears strong comparison to the Bantustans of apartheid-era South Africa. The establishment of Israeli settlements will eventually force the recognition of a single nation in Israel and West Bank. It will take a few more generations before that comes to pass, but it seems more inevitable every day.
I fear you are right.

Indeed this is the intent of some Israeli colonists that set up in the West Bank in a deliberate belief that 'Samaria' should be part of a greater Israel. Unfortunately some also believe this should be accompanied by the expulsion of Arabs from the land of Israel.
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Old 30th January 2020, 01:21 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
One issue is that Israel has yet to figure out is that in the long run, the establishment of settlements in the West Bank benefits the Palestinian ambitions more than it benefits Israel. That seems counter-intuitive, but think it through:

As the settlements get bigger, West Bank gets subdivided into smaller and smaller chunks. That makes the two state solution less and less feasible. If there can't be two states, there will be one, and Apartheid is unsustainable. As it is, the "Deal of the Century" map already bears strong comparison to the Bantustans of apartheid-era South Africa. The establishment of Israeli settlements will eventually force the recognition of a single nation in Israel and West Bank. It will take a few more generations before that comes to pass, but it seems more inevitable every day.
I think the idea behind the settlements on the West Bank is to eventually come to a settlement where Palestinians leave to be granted settled status in Jordan, Arabia or other Arab countries while Israel stretches from the river Jordan to the sea.

It's a long-term project, historically the Jews were rather good at this kind of thing.

There's also precendens where this was done: when the Jews were forced out of Jordan, Arabia and other Arab countries, they were granted settled status in Israel.

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Old 30th January 2020, 01:23 AM   #31
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McHrozni[/quote]

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Quote:
The situation is complex. There may be some truth in what you say, but not the whole truth. Many Palestinians are Israeli citizens but are second class citizens because they are not Jewish.
Evidence?
[/quote]
20% of the Israeli population are Arab but only 10% of the Knesset are Arab. Less than 10% of the budget is spent on Arabs. Israel is explicitly Jewish, Jewish persons have a right of return, but not matter how well established an origin Arabs are denied a right of return. The Jewish national fund a government 'owned' body explicitly supports Jewish ownership of land.

Whilst de jure there may be equality de facto most people in power are non-Arabs and the inevitable nature of institutions is they benefit people like themselves.
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Old 30th January 2020, 01:29 AM   #32
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
20% of the Israeli population are Arab but only 10% of the Knesset are Arab.
Can you provide evidence this is due to legal and not cultural or other prefferences?

Quote:
Less than 10% of the budget is spent on Arabs.
You'll need to explain methodology as to how this is derived. 10% of the budget spent specifically on an ethnic minority is plenty (more than you'd expect) if you include issues like national defence - which feature highly on Israeli priorities, for obvious reasons.

Quote:
Israel is explicitly Jewish
Syria and Egypt are explicitly Islamic Arab, as are many other states in the region. That doesn't seem to bother anyone for whatever reason. Is it a general problem that's only mentioned with Israel for reasons best unmentioned or is there something uniquely sinister about Jewishness that bothers you?

Quote:
Whilst de jure there may be equality de facto most people in power are non-Arabs and the inevitable nature of institutions is they benefit people like themselves.
If you're going to call that second-class citizenship just about every state larger than Monaco is guilty of the same.

Yet it's only a problem with Israel and Palestinains. Go figure.

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Old 30th January 2020, 01:43 AM   #33
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It is simply wrong to call this a peace plan.
It's a completely transparent cover for Israel to annex more territory, tomorrow.
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Old 30th January 2020, 01:47 AM   #34
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[quote=Cosmic Yak;12970357]


Quote:
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
One country has snipers shoot people who are peacefully protesting.
The vast majority of those shot were members of Hamas, who were ordered to attack the border, in the full knowledge that they would be fired on.
Once again, a criminal act, once again glossed over.

This is simply not true. Please read some facts about what has been happening.

Quote:
The commission, set up by the UN Human Rights Council in May, said that "more than 6,000 unarmed demonstrators were shot by military snipers" during weeks of protest.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-journalists/
The Telegraph is a right wing newspaper and not pro-Arab.

Also
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/in...at-Gazas-March

When Palestinians try to follow a non-violent pattern of protest. When unarmed people seek to demonstrate they are met by violence. Remember these people are not in Israel, but are being shot from across the border in Israel. All that is being threatened is the fence. International law is clear there has to be an immediate threat to life to justify opening fire. These thousands who have been shot are not armed Hamas resistance fighters. They are ordinary people trying to practice freedom of assembly and freedom of speech in their own country.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Cheap shot. Two words: Nelson Mandela.
Thank you for making my point. Or you could have the IRA. The point being you do have to negotiate with terrorists. I don't know whether the US or UK viewed the ANC as terrorists. Certainly people talked about how white people would be driven out of South Africa. But at the end of the day one has to negotiate.

Hamas was legitimately elected as part of the Palestinian government. But Israel refused to recognise the expressed will of the Palestinians. When palestinians follow a democratic pathway, when they demonstrate of have an election, they are punished not rewarded. People say that they should abandon violence (and I would agree), but when there are moves in that direction they are not supported. It is no good saying 'have democratic elections so long as you vote for the people we want' that is the only way we will recognise your decision, and deal with your representatives.
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Old 30th January 2020, 02:22 AM   #35
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[quote=Planigale;12971655]
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post



The vast majority of those shot were members of Hamas, who were ordered to attack the border, in the full knowledge that they would be fired on.
Once again, a criminal act, once again glossed over.

This is simply not true. Please read some facts about what has been happening.
It actually is true, and your own link (the Telegraph) confirms it.There's also this:
Quote:
Most of the protesters killed this week by Israeli fire along the border with the Gaza Strip were members of Hamas, the militant group said
https://apnews.com/3e5b1dbebb2a4ed09...re-its-members
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I assumed that, when you meant 'shot'. you were talking about bullets.
Obviously, I was wrong: the second article is talking about rubber bullets, whilst the first one mentions the 50+ Hamas members killed (you know, the ones you said weren't Hamas members), and, therefore, by default, the others I am assuming were also hit by rubber bullets.
Use of these bullets is common, whether you agree with it or not: Israel is far from the only state to do this.


Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
When Palestinians try to follow a non-violent pattern of protest. When unarmed people seek to demonstrate they are met by violence. Remember these people are not in Israel, but are being shot from across the border in Israel. All that is being threatened is the fence. International law is clear there has to be an immediate threat to life to justify opening fire. These thousands who have been shot are not armed Hamas resistance fighters. They are ordinary people trying to practice freedom of assembly and freedom of speech in their own country.
Utter rubbish.
They were trying to storm the border, egged on by Hamas. They also used incendiary devices to burn Israeli farmland, and threw stones. They were warned not to try to attack the border, but did so anyway, knowing what the result would be.
This was not a peaceful protest, nor was it necessary to hold it next to a militarily sensitive area. This was an exercise in propaganda.


Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Thank you for making my point. Or you could have the IRA. The point being you do have to negotiate with terrorists. I don't know whether the US or UK viewed the ANC as terrorists. Certainly people talked about how white people would be driven out of South Africa. But at the end of the day one has to negotiate.
Which Hamas will not do. They were formed with the express intention of destroying Israel and driving the Jews into the sea. Try reading their charter.
Nelson Mandela renounced violence: the leaders of the Palestinian Arabs have not.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Hamas was legitimately elected as part of the Palestinian government.
How many elections have they had since then?

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
But Israel refused to recognise the expressed will of the Palestinians. When palestinians follow a democratic pathway, when they demonstrate of have an election, they are punished not rewarded.
Not true. They recognise Fatah, who were also elected. Hamas drove Fatah out of Gaza by force. This is not what I call democracy.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
People say that they should abandon violence (and I would agree), but when there are moves in that direction they are not supported. It is no good saying 'have democratic elections so long as you vote for the people we want' that is the only way we will recognise your decision, and deal with your representatives.

How was electing Hamas a move away from violence?
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Old 30th January 2020, 02:41 AM   #36
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[quote=Planigale;12971655]
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post



The vast majority of those shot were members of Hamas, who were ordered to attack the border, in the full knowledge that they would be fired on.
Once again, a criminal act, once again glossed over.

This is simply not true. Please read some facts about what has been happening.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-journalists/
The Telegraph is a right wing newspaper and not pro-Arab.
How about going to the primary source, shall we?

Here's the report:
https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HR...40_74_CRP2.pdf

Find where it says 6,000 people were shot by snipers and come back, will ya?

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Old 30th January 2020, 04:43 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
What's in it for Saudi Arabia?
Did Kushner promise them nuclear reactors?
Naah, two free commercial airliners to use as they please, probably.
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Old 30th January 2020, 11:06 AM   #38
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[quote=McHrozni;12971681]
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post

How about going to the primary source, shall we?

Here's the report:
https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HR...40_74_CRP2.pdf

Find where it says 6,000 people were shot by snipers and come back, will ya?

McHrozni
Thank you!

Quote:
Among those shot were children, paramedics, journalists, and persons with disabilities. 183 people were shot dead and another 6,106 were wounded with live ammunition.
Quote:
The Commission found that 29 people killed during demonstrations were members of organized armed groups, with another 18 of undetermined status. The Commission took the view, however, that it is unlawful to shoot unarmed demonstrators based solely on their membership in an armed group, and not on their conduct at the time. It is equally unlawful to target them based on political affiliation.
Even limiting to those shot dead a majority were not members of 'organised armed groups' and that did not mean the individuals killed were armed at the time they were shot, merely that they were members of such an organization.

ETA

To be clear I think firing missiles into Israel with no ability to accurately target them against military targets is criminal. I would personally argue against all violence, but would accept an argument that if the IDF are opening fire on Gaza, then the IDF are legitimate military targets and targeting them is not terrorism or criminal.

Last edited by Planigale; 30th January 2020 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 30th January 2020, 11:20 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Hamas was legitimately elected as part of the Palestinian government. But Israel refused to recognise the expressed will of the Palestinians. When palestinians follow a democratic pathway, when they demonstrate of have an election, they are punished not rewarded.
Democratic elections are not magic. They don't automatically produce good results just because they're democratic.

The point of democratic elections is not to guarantee good outcomes. The point is to give the citizens themselves responsibility for their own government. We can pity the citizens of North Korea, who are oppressed by a government in which they have no voice. We should not pity the citizens of Gaza, who chose Hamas to lead them. Quite the opposite: By the fundamental principles of democracy, those that legitimately elected Hamas bear full responsibility for the terrorist policies of their elected government.

In recognizing a state of enmity between Gaza and itself, Israel is absolutely recognizing the expressed will of the Gazans.
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Old 30th January 2020, 11:22 AM   #40
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[quote=Planigale;12971655]
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post

Hamas was legitimately elected as part of the Palestinian government. But Israel refused to recognise the expressed will of the Palestinians. .
Hitler was elected. Should Poland not have refused to recognize the expressed will of the German people and submitted?

Being elected allows you to claim that you are a legitimate representative of your people. It does not mean that your views are correct, nor that foreigners have an obligation to conform with them (especially if genocidally anti-Semitic).
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