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Old 30th January 2020, 11:33 AM   #41
theprestige
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"You shouldn't punish the people of Gaza for the actions of Hamas."

"... The actions of the terrorist group that the people of Gaza elected to represent them, in a legitimately democratic vote?"

"Yeah, don't punish the people of Gaza for that."
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Old 30th January 2020, 12:14 PM   #42
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That would of course be the same Hamas that runs ".. services like nurseries, schools, orphanages, soup kitchens, women's activities, library services and even sporting clubs" in Gaza.

Why they'd have local support I'll never know
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Old 30th January 2020, 12:22 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
That would of course be the same Hamas that runs ".. services like nurseries, schools, orphanages, soup kitchens, women's activities, library services and even sporting clubs" in Gaza.

Why they'd have local support I'll never know
The Nazis ran similar things.
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Old 30th January 2020, 12:22 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It is simply wrong to call this a peace plan.
It's a completely transparent cover for Israel to annex more territory, tomorrow.
I don't think it was even supposed to be a peace plan, but a "Waah, I so totally do deserve a Nobel Peace Prize" plan.
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Old 30th January 2020, 12:28 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
It is not as if there are not concerns about corruption in the Israeli administration.
To put this in perspective, Abbas has a net worth of hundreds of millions, some say upwards of a billion, from having inherited direct and personal control of Palestinian aid monies from Arafat.

Netanyahu is accused of accepting luxury items such as expensive wine, cigars, and comped rooms and travel. AFAIK he is not accused of diverting any foreign aid for his personal use.
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Old 30th January 2020, 12:38 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Just judging by the back and forth in this thread I can't imagine there being a successful one-sided conversation either, to join the chorus saying it already.

I listened to an interview on the way home yesterday from an Ambassador of Palestine who basically said, unofficially, that Trump and Bibi can take this plan and stuff it. They weren't going to honor it. He also referred to both of them being in deep legal trouble, and that he feels it's directly related to this deal. Which I agree with wholeheartedly.
Was that the interview with Hanan Ashrawi?

What she didn't say is what would make an acceptable offer, or even what would be a good starting point for negotiations. You know, things that could begin a dialogue that could create a path to ending this conflict.

I don't like the Trump administration and didn't think they would contribute anything helpful, but in another sense it really didn't matter what the proposal was. There was never any chance it would get serious consideration from the Palestinians.
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Old 30th January 2020, 01:13 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
That would of course be the same Hamas that runs ".. services like nurseries, schools, orphanages, soup kitchens, women's activities, library services and even sporting clubs" in Gaza.

Why they'd have local support I'll never know
Hamas runs these programs to consolidate power, not as an act of benevolence. If a different government took over, they would run these same programs. Or better yet, allow them to be run by independent agencies.
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Old 30th January 2020, 11:13 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Even limiting to those shot dead a majority were not members of 'organised armed groups' and that did not mean the individuals killed were armed at the time they were shot, merely that they were members of such an organization.
It did not say they were killed by snipers or that they weren't killed by stray bullets ... or even by Hamas for that matter. It merely stated at least 29 of those killed were active terrorist shooters, with another 18 maybe being such.

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Old 30th January 2020, 11:14 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"You shouldn't punish the people of Gaza for the actions of Hamas."

"... The actions of the terrorist group that the people of Gaza elected to represent them, in a legitimately democratic vote?"

"Yeah, don't punish the people of Gaza for that."
"But you should punish the people of Israel for the actions of their elected government. They elected them, after all."

That's one manifestation of the core reason for this entire conflict.

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Old 31st January 2020, 02:18 AM   #50
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If Israel wants to negotiate a deal with the Palestinians, it first has to hand them enough power and self-determination to form a unified government that could be a negotiating partner.
Most of Israeli politics so far has been to sabotage the creation of a legitimate negotiating partner.
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Old 31st January 2020, 02:41 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If Israel wants to negotiate a deal with the Palestinians, it first has to hand them enough power and self-determination to form a unified government that could be a negotiating partner.
What would that entail? Withdrawal from West Bank and Gaza for democratic elections to take place?

If you want something else please be specific about it. Thanks!

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Old 31st January 2020, 03:27 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
What would that entail? Withdrawal from West Bank and Gaza for democratic elections to take place?

If you want something else please be specific about it. Thanks!

McHrozni
Specifically, I want every Israeli politician above the age of 50 to retire. Specifically, I want a UN commission with one seat for Israel, one for Palestine and one moderator to deal with day-to-day issues. Specifically, I want Israel to treat its Arab citizens not as second-class citizens.
Long-term, I want a joined Israel-Palestine State with citizen rights for everyone.

But right now, nothing will happen until after most current politicians are out of power.
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Old 31st January 2020, 03:54 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Specifically, I want every Israeli politician above the age of 50 to retire.
But no such request for Palestinians? Why not?

Quote:
Specifically, I want a UN commission with one seat for Israel, one for Palestine and one moderator to deal with day-to-day issues.
This is not something Israel can do.

Quote:
Specifically, I want Israel to treat its Arab citizens not as second-class citizens.
There is no evidence this is the case.

Quote:
Long-term, I want a joined Israel-Palestine State with citizen rights for everyone.
This is utterly unacceptable to Palestinian leadership and a complete non-starter. They want the right to get "their" country rid of undersirables based on religion and ethnicity.

That's something we sometimes go to war to prevent, except when Palestinians want it. Then we demand they get what they want, in the name of equality.

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Old 31st January 2020, 04:10 AM   #54
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You asked.
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Old 31st January 2020, 04:31 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
You asked.
Yes, I did. I wanted to know if your proposal was honest.

It was not. It's one more attempt to perpetuate the conflict and blame it on Israel.

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Old 31st January 2020, 04:36 AM   #56
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It seems to me that you are somewhat one-sided informed.
Specifically, about the fact that many Israeli have started to call their country an apartheid state.

Israel has passed on the two-state solution, so integration is the only way forward.

Or do you have a brilliant solution?
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Old 31st January 2020, 05:16 AM   #57
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lol, the apartheid argument fails
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Old 31st January 2020, 05:23 AM   #58
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Specifically, about the fact that many Israeli have started to call their country an apartheid state.
I can call it a Fluffy Bunny Unicorn, it won't make it grow fur, a horn and it won't start hopping around either.

Quote:
Israel has passed on the two-state solution, so integration is the only way forward.
Palestinians explicitly reject integration and wish to cleanse "their" land from "invaders". How do you address that?

Quote:
Or do you have a brilliant solution?
Of course I do.

Complete the Arab part of the population exchange, started by the Arabs in 1949-1960 period and resettle Palestinians into new homelands, proportionally to the number of Jews expelled into Israel from those lands.

Just like India-Pakistan (1949), Greece-Turkey (1920s), Cyprus (1974) and all the rest. Once you stop pretending Palestinian case is special and unprecendented the solutions sprout everywhere.

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Old 31st January 2020, 06:20 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If Israel wants to negotiate a deal with the Palestinians, it first has to hand them enough power and self-determination to form a unified government that could be a negotiating partner.
Most of Israeli politics so far has been to sabotage the creation of a legitimate negotiating partner.
That’s not why the Palestinians are not a useful negotiating power.

It’s that the Palestinians want Israel destroyed that is a barrier to negotiations.
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Old 31st January 2020, 07:08 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Specifically, I want every Israeli politician above the age of 50 to retire. Specifically, I want a UN commission with one seat for Israel, one for Palestine and one moderator to deal with day-to-day issues. Specifically, I want Israel to treat its Arab citizens not as second-class citizens.
Long-term, I want a joined Israel-Palestine State with citizen rights for everyone.

But right now, nothing will happen until after most current politicians are out of power.
Well, war, terrorist campaigns, boycotts and demonization haven't produced results. Might as well try demographics.
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Old 31st January 2020, 03:22 PM   #61
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Got sidetracked & couldn't return here in the meantime since the actual Plan was released. This discussion is proceeding apace without me! ---

One thing that caught my attention was the area called the Triangle. Israel is intending to redraw the 1949 Lines and place the Triangle into the Palestinian zone. (the Triangle got put into Israel in 1949 due to military troop positions and cease-fire considerations, but the Arabs living in that salient are traditionally of the Jenin district).

Now, two items are arising out of that.

1. Palestinians who are part of the Triangle are declaring they are scheduled to be "transferred" out of Israel. Well, yeah, except that they don't have to move! The lines/borders will be redrawn, and these folks will find themselves attached to the Palestine State and no longer Israel.

2. The Arabs who would be impacted by this are not happy. They DON'T WANT to be attached to a Palestine State and they want nothing to do with having to become Palestinian citizens and relinquish their Israeli identity!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieberman_Plan
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Old 1st February 2020, 01:16 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
That’s not why the Palestinians are not a useful negotiating power.

It’s that the Palestinians want Israel destroyed that is a barrier to negotiations.

and might that not be because they see no political way to improve their lives?

IMO, the fundamental problem of the conflict stems from the fact that the affected parties aren't given the chance to sort things out among themselves: their conflict is used as a proxy by various regional and global actors, in effect taking agency away both from the Palestinians and Israeli.
And this foreign interference comes in the shape of strengthening the most radical fundamentalists on both sides.
The degree to which Israel's politics is aimed towards the ultra-orthodox is, frankly, bizarre.
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Old 1st February 2020, 11:46 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Specifically, I want every Israeli politician above the age of 50 to retire.
You want to disenfranchise and silence part of the Israeli population, but can't think of any similar group among the Palestinians deserving of the same treatment?

I don't agree that older Israeli politicians are the problem, but if we concede that for the sake of argument, how about forcing Israeli politicians above 50 to retire, and also forcing every Palestinian politician linked to Fatah, Hamas, or any act of terrorism to retire as well? That way you remove the "problematic" people from both sides.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
But right now, nothing will happen until after most current politicians are out of power.
Israeli politicians are voted in. Maybe the Israeli electorate keeps voting them in because they can see firsthand the attitude and actions of the Palestinian leadership, and don't find a peace partner in them, therefore don't want to vote in politicians that would make peace.
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Old 1st February 2020, 11:52 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If Israel wants to negotiate a deal with the Palestinians, it first has to hand them enough power and self-determination to form a unified government that could be a negotiating partner.
Palestinian failure are forever blamed on the Israelis.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Most of Israeli politics so far has been to sabotage the creation of a legitimate negotiating partner.
That's a conspiracy theory. A theory that requires that different Israeli leaders of many different political ideologies, administrations, and generations somehow secretly share a hidden agenda.
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Old 4th February 2020, 08:35 PM   #65
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EU rejects Trump Mideast plan amid annexation concerns

Quote:
BRUSSELS -- The European Union on Tuesday rejected U.S. President Donald Trump’s proposal for securing peace in the Middle East and expressed concern about Israel’s plans to annex more Palestinian land.

Trump's plan, which was unveiled last week, would foresee the eventual creation of a Palestinian state, but it falls far short of minimal Palestinian demands and would leave sizable chunks of the occupied West Bank in Israeli hands.

In a statement, EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell underlined the bloc's commitment to a two-state solution, based along the 1967 lines, with the possibility of mutually agreed land-swaps, made up of the state of Israel and “an independent, democratic, contiguous, sovereign and viable state of Palestine.”

Borrell said the U.S. initiative “departs from these internationally agreed parameters.”

“To build a just and lasting peace, the unresolved final status issues must be decided through direct negotiations between both parties," Borrell said. "This includes notably the issues related to borders, the status of Jerusalem, security and the refugee question,”

Trump’s plan was welcomed by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, but Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has dismissed it as “nonsense.” Gulf Arab states also rejected the White House plan as “biased.” While Israeli officials were present for its unveiling, no Palestinian representatives attended.

Netanyahu has said he wants to move forward with plans to annex West Bank territory.
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Old 5th February 2020, 05:26 AM   #66
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Iran is inciting and agitating for another war against Jews.
https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Kh...ce-plan-616604

and at the same time, Palestinian officials are inciting and agitating for another war against Jews.
https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-C...century-616580

HAMAS? Who would guess that their leadership is also inciting and agitating for another war against Jews? --
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/275585
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Old 5th February 2020, 12:13 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Iran is inciting and agitating for another war against Jews.
https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Kh...ce-plan-616604

and at the same time, Palestinian officials are inciting and agitating for another war against Jews.
https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-C...century-616580

HAMAS? Who would guess that their leadership is also inciting and agitating for another war against Jews? --
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/275585
I totally want to blame Trump and Kushner, but I really think this would have happened regardless of what was in the proposal.
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Old 5th February 2020, 12:30 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I totally want to blame Trump and Kushner, but I really think this would have happened regardless of what was in the proposal.
Well you have so many more things to blame them for that could be viewed as leading to that than just this proposal starting with tearing up the nuclear deal.
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Old 5th February 2020, 12:51 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I totally want to blame Trump and Kushner, but I really think this would have happened regardless of what was in the proposal.


I don't blame them for the failure of this "plan", I blame them for acting like this plan was ever a sincere attempt at resolving the problems in the ME. They've made great noise about being the only ones who could ever solve this problem, but based on what they've produced, it's clear that all they ever really cared about was a soundbite that would appeal to their stupidest religious supporters. They don't care about Israel, or Palestine, or the fact that everyone who isn't an idiot can see that. It's not just a lie, it's a blatant lie with a smug **** you attitude towards everyone who can see the lie, and all the idiots who fall for it.

They're playing stupid politics with the lives of millions of people, while acting like they're the greatest leaders ever in history. **** them for their BS.
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Old 5th February 2020, 01:40 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The Nazis ran similar things.
Beat me to it.

It's just a variation on the old "Mussoline was a ruthless dictator but he made the trains run on time" routine. )(Actually Musso did nothing of the kind, but that's another story).

HAMAS is a much a part of the problem as the Israeli Right. Both just do not want to admit realities because reality clashes with their ideology.
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Old 5th February 2020, 01:45 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I totally want to blame Trump and Kushner, but I really think this would have happened regardless of what was in the proposal.
Yes, this same kind of crap went on with almost every President.
I am generally a Obama supporter, but felt he should have avoided alientting Israel the way he did.
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Old 5th February 2020, 01:46 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
I don't blame them for the failure of this "plan", I blame them for acting like this plan was ever a sincere attempt at resolving the problems in the ME. They've made great noise about being the only ones who could ever solve this problem, but based on what they've produced, it's clear that all they ever really cared about was a soundbite that would appeal to their stupidest religious supporters. They don't care about Israel, or Palestine, or the fact that everyone who isn't an idiot can see that. It's not just a lie, it's a blatant lie with a smug **** you attitude towards everyone who can see the lie, and all the idiots who fall for it.

They're playing stupid politics with the lives of millions of people, while acting like they're the greatest leaders ever in history. **** them for their BS.
This. No fan of Dubya, but even he knew blind support for Israel was not the way to go.
Of course the kind of blind support for the Palestinians that a few of the more extreme Democrats in Congress have is not the way to go either.
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Old 6th February 2020, 01:05 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
That’s not why the Palestinians are not a useful negotiating power.

It’s that the Palestinians want Israel destroyed that is a barrier to negotiations.
Actually that is a reason for negotiating. Negotiations don't usually start on the basis that people have to agree or like each other or even have stopped shooting at each other. Hamas may start off being committed to the destruction of the state of Israel, it is what is the outcome of the negotiations that matters.
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Old 6th February 2020, 01:11 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Got sidetracked & couldn't return here in the meantime since the actual Plan was released. This discussion is proceeding apace without me! ---

One thing that caught my attention was the area called the Triangle. Israel is intending to redraw the 1949 Lines and place the Triangle into the Palestinian zone. (the Triangle got put into Israel in 1949 due to military troop positions and cease-fire considerations, but the Arabs living in that salient are traditionally of the Jenin district).

Now, two items are arising out of that.

1. Palestinians who are part of the Triangle are declaring they are scheduled to be "transferred" out of Israel. Well, yeah, except that they don't have to move! The lines/borders will be redrawn, and these folks will find themselves attached to the Palestine State and no longer Israel.

2. The Arabs who would be impacted by this are not happy. They DON'T WANT to be attached to a Palestine State and they want nothing to do with having to become Palestinian citizens and relinquish their Israeli identity!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieberman_Plan
Of course if they were Jewish then they would be granted enclaves within the area, but because they are not Jewish they can be expelled form Israel.

In exchange for annexing the fertile Jordan valley Israel will allocate areas of desert to the Palestinians.
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Old 6th February 2020, 07:32 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Actually that is a reason for negotiating. Negotiations don't usually start on the basis that people have to agree or like each other or even have stopped shooting at each other. Hamas may start off being committed to the destruction of the state of Israel, it is what is the outcome of the negotiations that matters.
Hamas has promised its militant followers the elimination of the Zionist Entity. Anything less than that will be characterised as either a sell out or a defeat. That won't fly.
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Old 7th February 2020, 05:48 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Of course if they were Jewish then they would be granted enclaves within the area, but because they are not Jewish they can be expelled from Israel.

In exchange for annexing the fertile Jordan valley Israel will allocate areas of desert to the Palestinians.
THIS is the Jordan Valley ---

Also, the plan does not "expel" Palestinians. What it does is aim to correct an anomaly that occurred in 1949, whereby the Arabs in the Triangle were cut-off from their brethren in the Jenin district due to the lines drawn by 1949 Rhodes Armistice Agreements, and thus included to the State of Israel.
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Old 7th February 2020, 06:05 AM   #77
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I don't give a **** about assigning blame when it comes to the Conflict.
I only want solutions for the future, not a litigation of the past.

And there won't be a solution until the Palestinians are taken seriously as negotiating partner, both by the international Community and Israel, and their own citizens; and that requires way more self-determination than Israel is currently willing to give them.
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Old 7th February 2020, 07:16 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post

HAMAS is a much a part of the problem as the Israeli Right. Both just do not want to admit realities because reality clashes with their ideology.
Hamas is not a problem they are a symptom. They hold on to power because they attack Israel. If they entered into a real peace agreement with Israel and kept their end of the agreement, their power base would erode and a more radical group would replace them. This is more or less how Hamas supplanted the PLO as the de facto representative of the Palestinian people.

The rise of the far right in Israel complicates negotiating a peace treaty, but prior to that the real problem was that being anti-Israel is how Palestinian political organizations get and hold onto power. As a result they compete with each other to be the most anti-Israel and one of the most effective ways to do so is to ignore any peace agreements.
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Old 7th February 2020, 07:23 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Actually that is a reason for negotiating. Negotiations don't usually start on the basis that people have to agree or like each other or even have stopped shooting at each other. Hamas may start off being committed to the destruction of the state of Israel, it is what is the outcome of the negotiations that matters.
Not really. Conflict with Israel is how Hamas maintains it’s power base. Even if they negotiated a peace agreement they will end up ignoring any agreement it because they have to if they want tom hold onto power.
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Old 7th February 2020, 07:24 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Hamas has promised its militant followers the elimination of the Zionist Entity. Anything less than that will be characterised as either a sell out or a defeat. That won't fly.

So if negotioation is impossible with Hamas, why is anyone going through with this charade? Just go to war, then, and get it over with.
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