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Old 7th February 2020, 07:50 AM   #81
ahhell
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
What's in it for Saudi Arabia?
Did Kushner promise them nuclear reactors?
It will allow them to get the other Arabs(Sunnis) to focus on the real bad guys, the Persians(Shiites)*. Which is why this has the best chance** of peace actually working out in decades.

*from the perspective of a Saudi Prince anyway.
**Not an actual chance, really the least bad chance on account of a number of Arab nations backing it and trying to get the Palestinians to accept it.
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Old 7th February 2020, 07:55 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
And there won't be a solution until the Palestinians are taken seriously as negotiating partner, both by the international Community and Israel, and their own citizens; and that requires way more self-determination than Israel is currently willing to give them.
I think your premise that Palestinians haven't been taken seriously in negotiations is not correct. Also, this connection you make between self-determination and how seriously they're taken in negotiations seems not very connected to me. Can you elaborate on your thinking?
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Old 7th February 2020, 09:20 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I think your premise that Palestinians haven't been taken seriously in negotiations is not correct. Also, this connection you make between self-determination and how seriously they're taken in negotiations seems not very connected to me. Can you elaborate on your thinking?
wrt self determination, IMO what many countries in the ME suffer from can be viewed as an extreme form of populism. Populism can be a challenge for democracy at the best of times, but in the extreme cases a positive feedback loop is created that drives the most extreme and worst possible policies. The leaders promote the policy because it’s popular, and this in turn helps make the policy even more popular.

Democratic self determination won’t fix this, and if anything will just make it worse. A dictatorship can be a little better, but often the dictator themselves needs to appeal to the underlying populism to hold onto their own power. This is why Bush’s attempt to bring democracy to Iraq was doomed to fail miserably, it’s why trying to force Saudi Arabia into becoming a democracy would blow up in spectacular fashion and it’s why self determination can’t fix the problems in Palestine.

Before any type of democratic system can work you first need to address the underlying populist religious fanaticism. If anything this is heading the wrong direction. Israel and Turkey are tipping into their own version of this, and even the US is getting uncomfortably close to heading down the same dead end road.
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Old 7th February 2020, 02:00 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
wrt self determination, IMO what many countries in the ME suffer from can be viewed as an extreme form of populism. Populism can be a challenge for democracy at the best of times, but in the extreme cases a positive feedback loop is created that drives the most extreme and worst possible policies. The leaders promote the policy because it’s popular, and this in turn helps make the policy even more popular.

Democratic self determination won’t fix this, and if anything will just make it worse. A dictatorship can be a little better, but often the dictator themselves needs to appeal to the underlying populism to hold onto their own power. This is why Bush’s attempt to bring democracy to Iraq was doomed to fail miserably, it’s why trying to force Saudi Arabia into becoming a democracy would blow up in spectacular fashion and it’s why self determination can’t fix the problems in Palestine.

Before any type of democratic system can work you first need to address the underlying populist religious fanaticism. If anything this is heading the wrong direction. Israel and Turkey are tipping into their own version of this, and even the US is getting uncomfortably close to heading down the same dead end road.
This why the whole "Secular Palestinian State" solution is nothing but a bunch of unrealistic Pie In The Sky.
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Old 8th February 2020, 02:16 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I don't give a **** about assigning blame when it comes to the Conflict.
I only want solutions for the future, not a litigation of the past.

And there won't be a solution until the Palestinians are taken seriously as negotiating partner, both by the international Community and Israel, and their own citizens; and that requires way more self-determination than Israel is currently willing to give them.
I think the Palestinians will only be taken seriously as negotiators when they actually start to negotiate.
Thus far, they have a list of demands that they will not compromise on, and that they know will never be accepted by Israel.
They have repeatedly walked away from deals that gave them, for example, 93% of the land they wanted, and have rejected the new plan out of hand without even trying to negotiate.
That, plus electing a government that is sworn to destroy Israel, and which shows no evidence of changing that position.
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Old 8th February 2020, 02:17 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
So if negotioation is impossible with Hamas, why is anyone going through with this charade? Just go to war, then, and get it over with.
You are confusing the Israelis with the Arabs.
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Old 8th February 2020, 02:31 AM   #87
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I agree that the Palestinians are in no shape to credibly negotiate with Israel - they are too easily divided and radicalized.
But due to the geographics of the conflict, there is no reason to assume that that will change from internal change alone.
I don't see an alternative other than to fully unite Palestine and Israel with a kind of Federal system for the Palestinian territories given financial, but not military, autonomy.
There can't be any stability as long as the conflict is over territory instead of rights and political influence.
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Old 8th February 2020, 12:53 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I agree that the Palestinians are in no shape to credibly negotiate with Israel - they are too easily divided and radicalized.
But due to the geographics of the conflict, there is no reason to assume that that will change from internal change alone.
I don't see an alternative other than to fully unite Palestine and Israel with a kind of Federal system for the Palestinian territories given financial, but not military, autonomy.
There can't be any stability as long as the conflict is over territory instead of rights and political influence.
Fully united, but autonomous? How would that work?
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Old 8th February 2020, 01:07 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
So if negotioation is impossible with Hamas, why is anyone going through with this charade? Just go to war, then, and get it over with.
They've been to war already. They've won. Somehow this doesn't count, though.

Go to war against Nazi Germany. Defeat them in battle. Occupy their country. Impose martial law. Remake them in your image. Problem solved.

Go to war with Imperial Japan. Defeat them in battle. Occupy their country. Impose martial law. Remake them in your image. Problem solved.

Go to war with Terrorist Palestine. Defeat them in battle. Occupy their territory. Impose martial law. Remake them in your image. Problem solved. Surrender and pay for your war crimes, Holocaust Jew!
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Old 8th February 2020, 06:56 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
wrt self determination, IMO what many countries in the ME suffer from can be viewed as an extreme form of populism. Populism can be a challenge for democracy at the best of times, but in the extreme cases a positive feedback loop is created that drives the most extreme and worst possible policies. The leaders promote the policy because it’s popular, and this in turn helps make the policy even more popular.
I think I see what you're getting at, but I don't think populism is the mechanism that creates the feedback loop.

Palestinians as ruled by Fatah or Hamas are not a free people. If you're a Palestinian living in Palestine and you publicly express the wrong opinion, such as making peace with Israel is a good idea, the repercussions to you run a gamut between being cut off from social services needed to support your family, to being taken in the middle of the night and dragged behind a motorcycle until you're dead, and maybe long after to make sure lots of people see it.

The feedback loop is that among Palestinians, the gatekeepers to political power demand radicalism for entry. They are literally terrorist groups, and to join them you need to be a terrorist. To rise in power, you need to be a better terrorist than the others.

Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Democratic self determination won’t fix this, and if anything will just make it worse. A dictatorship can be a little better, but often the dictator themselves needs to appeal to the underlying populism to hold onto their own power. This is why Bush’s attempt to bring democracy to Iraq was doomed to fail miserably, it’s why trying to force Saudi Arabia into becoming a democracy would blow up in spectacular fashion and it’s why self determination can’t fix the problems in Palestine.
Democracy is handicapped in a culture where traditional power structures are based on who you are, and who you're connected with by tribe and family. If you demolish that power structure and tell everyone to go vote, they go and vote for the guy with the closest family/tribal connection to them. It doesn't really matter what policies they support.

If you're the opposition and can do the math and you can see you're not going to win, your best chance of changing the outcome isn't to buy more advertising to get your message across, but it might be to set off a bomb in the marketplace to send a message to certain people that they should stay home on election day.

And of course, your best chance of convincing people not to vote for their closest family connection is to appeal to religion.

Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Before any type of democratic system can work you first need to address the underlying populist religious fanaticism. If anything this is heading the wrong direction. Israel and Turkey are tipping into their own version of this, and even the US is getting uncomfortably close to heading down the same dead end road.
I'd agree that what is happening in the US, Turkey and Israel is worrisome, but I'd also remind you and everyone else that the Palestinians have a 70 year head start on this fanaticism.
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Old 8th February 2020, 07:00 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They've been to war already. They've won. Somehow this doesn't count, though.

Go to war against Nazi Germany. Defeat them in battle. Occupy their country. Impose martial law. Remake them in your image. Problem solved.

Go to war with Imperial Japan. Defeat them in battle. Occupy their country. Impose martial law. Remake them in your image. Problem solved.

Go to war with Terrorist Palestine. Defeat them in battle. Occupy their territory. Impose martial law. Remake them in your image. Problem solved. Surrender and pay for your war crimes, Holocaust Jew!
It's quite possible that the only realistic solution is for Israel to re-take the West Bank and Gaza, dismantle the power structures of Fatah and Hamas, and take over administration duties until new political structures can be created that don't involve terrorist organizations can be created.
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Old 9th February 2020, 02:00 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
It's quite possible that the only realistic solution is for Israel to re-take the West Bank and Gaza, dismantle the power structures of Fatah and Hamas, and take over administration duties until new political structures can be created that don't involve terrorist organizations can be created.
I don't see that as realistic at all.
For Israel, it would mean escalating and intensifying an already vicious conflict. The Muslim world would have a huge propaganda victory, as no-one would believe the Israelis were simply trying to set up 'new political structures'. Hamas and Fatah would have a field day, saying 'look! Look! We were right all along! They won't give us self-determination!' The Palestinian people would yet again be the real victims: the invasion would galvanise them into another stones-versus-tanks tragedy, reinforce their already deeply entrenched hatred of Israel, and leave them the unenviable situation of having to choose between the invaders on the one hand, and their fundamentalist terrorist leadership, who don't give a monkey's about them, on the other.
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Old 9th February 2020, 02:02 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I agree that the Palestinians are in no shape to credibly negotiate with Israel - they are too easily divided and radicalized.
But due to the geographics of the conflict, there is no reason to assume that that will change from internal change alone.
I don't see an alternative other than to fully unite Palestine and Israel with a kind of Federal system for the Palestinian territories given financial, but not military, autonomy.
There can't be any stability as long as the conflict is over territory instead of rights and political influence.
Why not unite the Palestinian Territories with Jordan? Jordan was, after all, carved out of Palestine in the first place, and is still home to large numbers of Palestinian Arabs.
That gives us a largely Jewish state of Israel, and a largely Palestinian Arab state of Jordan.
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Old 9th February 2020, 02:52 AM   #94
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I sometimes wonder what history would have been like had the state of Israel been carved out of Germany based upon who actually committed the holocaust rather than based upon religious fantasies of holy lands.
Without a nice external factor to focus religious hate that current Israel gives the Muslim world, I suspect the Middle east would have to focus more on solving actual internal problems.
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Old 9th February 2020, 07:32 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
I sometimes wonder what history would have been like had the state of Israel been carved out of Germany based upon who actually committed the holocaust rather than based upon religious fantasies of holy lands.
Without a nice external factor to focus religious hate that current Israel gives the Muslim world, I suspect the Middle east would have to focus more on solving actual internal problems.
This is certainly a view in the Islamic world. The holocaust and anti-semitism was a European / Christian phenomenon. Muslim nations had large Jewish populations with no genocide. Yet the solution to the treatment of European Jews in Europe by Europeans was to create a Jewish 'colonial' state by resettling European Jews in the middle east with no compensation to the Arabs both Christian and Muslim who were displaced. This is seen as taking an opportunity to continue the long history of expulsion of Jews from Europe.

Certainly other 'homeland' options were considered at the time. Of course there was a pre-existing Zionist movement that had promoted a return to Israel long before, so this was not purely a US / European powers invention. There is a certain coloniial mentality in the view that it was empty country before the settlers came that echos attitudes to aborigines in Australia or Noth America.

I post this not because this is my belief but because it may help to understand the origin of some of the resentment in the middle east. Understanding the otherside is often helpful in negotiations.
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Old 9th February 2020, 10:12 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Why not unite the Palestinian Territories with Jordan? Jordan was, after all, carved out of Palestine in the first place, and is still home to large numbers of Palestinian Arabs.
That gives us a largely Jewish state of Israel, and a largely Palestinian Arab state of Jordan.
Why would Jordan want them? The same Jordan that already fought a war with the Palestinians?

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Old 9th February 2020, 10:38 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I don't see that as realistic at all...
I hope you're right. At the same time, it's been more than 50 years since the Six-Day war and doing other things hasn't worked so far. I don't think giving them over to Jordan is a feasible solution either.
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Old 9th February 2020, 11:13 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
...Yet the solution to the treatment of European Jews in Europe by Europeans was to create a Jewish 'colonial' state by resettling European Jews in the middle east with no compensation to the Arabs both Christian and Muslim who were displaced...
This is factually incorrect.

Jewish people who immigrated to Palestine either financed their own way, and purchased their own lands, or had assistance from the Jewish Agency, which raised funds to purchase lands and help Jewish immigrants. They did not just take over land owned by other people.

The Balfour Declaration, which shaped British policy during the times of the British Mandate called for the establishment of a "national home" for the Jewish people, but also specifically said, " it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine".

People did lose land as a result of the Israeli War of Independence. Arabs who fled the region during and before the war were not allowed back, and lands under Arab control at the end of the war were ethnically cleansed of their Jewish inhabitants.

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the first suggestion of separating the land into an Arab region and a Jewish region was the Peel Commission Report, which suggested separation primarily due to Arab hostility to Jewish immigration.
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Old 9th February 2020, 11:14 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Why not unite the Palestinian Territories with Jordan? Jordan was, after all, carved out of Palestine in the first place, and is still home to large numbers of Palestinian Arabs.
That gives us a largely Jewish state of Israel, and a largely Palestinian Arab state of Jordan.
Israel would not agree to the Westbank being given to Jordan for security reasons. They might agree to relocating the population.
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Old 9th February 2020, 01:33 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
They might agree to relocating the population.
That also seems unlikely to me. What do you base this on?
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Old 9th February 2020, 05:13 PM   #101
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The idea of VOLUNTARILY relocating Arabs into Gaza was proposed HERE --->
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/anno...state-solution

I'm not exactly sure why the Gaza/N.Sinai NewState proposal was altered so significantly by Kushner & Co. instead of just being offered AS IS.

I mean, it's not like Avi Berkowitz has a snowball's chance in he11 of getting this 181-page dreamscape being adopted by anyone.

And while I'm typing, I got another question --- Why is the USA even letting Abbas enter the country to incite against Trump at the UN? He should be denied a visa and told "Stay away from Turtle Bay..."
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Old 9th February 2020, 05:27 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
This is factually incorrect.

Jewish people who immigrated to Palestine either financed their own way, and purchased their own lands, or had assistance from the Jewish Agency, which raised funds to purchase lands and help Jewish immigrants. They did not just take over land owned by other people.

The Balfour Declaration, which shaped British policy during the times of the British Mandate called for the establishment of a "national home" for the Jewish people, but also specifically said, " it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine".

People did lose land as a result of the Israeli War of Independence. Arabs who fled the region during and before the war were not allowed back, and lands under Arab control at the end of the war were ethnically cleansed of their Jewish inhabitants.

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the first suggestion of separating the land into an Arab region and a Jewish region was the Peel Commission Report, which suggested separation primarily due to Arab hostility to Jewish immigration.
I did not claim it was factually correct. What I said was that it was the perception of many in the Islamic world. Yes the history is complex, the issues are difficult. I don't have an answer.

Israel was active in ethnic cleansing; there was both carrot and stick. It was valuable to Israel as the Jewish state to encourage Jewish immigration. Israel actively promoted this e.g. the removal of Jews from Ethiopia. There were anti-Jewish actions in Muslim countries that were reprehensible. I think the loss of vibrant Jewish communities from so many countries is a tragedy. As a cultural minority person this makes me sad, will my children too be relocated from the country I regard as home?
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Old 9th February 2020, 06:33 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I did not claim it was factually correct. What I said was that it was the perception of many in the Islamic world. Yes the history is complex, the issues are difficult. I don't have an answer.

Israel was active in ethnic cleansing; there was both carrot and stick. It was valuable to Israel as the Jewish state to encourage Jewish immigration. Israel actively promoted this e.g. the removal of Jews from Ethiopia. There were anti-Jewish actions in Muslim countries that were reprehensible. I think the loss of vibrant Jewish communities from so many countries is a tragedy. As a cultural minority person this makes me sad, will my children too be relocated from the country I regard as home?
Understanding the other side is important, as is understanding the other side is often factually incorrect.

It's hard to reconcile differences when one side is allowed to have "alternative facts", as we are learning in the United States under our current administration.
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Old 10th February 2020, 06:09 AM   #104
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"...it was the perception of many in the Islamic world." -- Planigale

So is the perception that Mohammed rode a flying white horse to heaven for a little visit.
As such, that location from which he launched on his journey (Al-Buraq Wall) is considered Holy and should be in control of Islam, not Judaism.
And the primary flash-point of the entire conflict is at that specific location.

In fact, that location is disputed between the two sides more than any other parcels of land.

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Old 10th February 2020, 08:25 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I think I see what you're getting at, but I don't think populism is the mechanism that creates the feedback loop.

Palestinians as ruled by Fatah or Hamas are not a free people. If you're a Palestinian living in Palestine and you publicly express the wrong opinion, such as making peace with Israel is a good idea, the repercussions to you run a gamut between being cut off from social services needed to support your family, to being taken in the middle of the night and dragged behind a motorcycle until you're dead, and maybe long after to make sure lots of people see it.

The feedback loop is that among Palestinians, the gatekeepers to political power demand radicalism for entry. They are literally terrorist groups, and to join them you need to be a terrorist. To rise in power, you need to be a better terrorist than the others.
The issue is not a lack of freedom IMO. By and large the population of Palestine wants and supports this type of ridged enforcement of anti-Israel ideology. If you got rid of the “gatekeepers” and allowed Palestinians to choose without any of this coercion and gave them real freedom to choose, they would choose people who promised to bring the same system back.
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Old 10th February 2020, 09:06 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Certainly other 'homeland' options were considered at the time. Of course there was a pre-existing Zionist movement that had promoted a return to Israel long before, so this was not purely a US / European powers invention. There is a certain coloniial mentality in the view that it was empty country before the settlers came that echos attitudes to aborigines in Australia or Noth America.

I post this not because this is my belief but because it may help to understand the origin of some of the resentment in the middle east. Understanding the otherside is often helpful in negotiations.
It makes no more sense to try to unwind things that happened 50 years ago than it does to try to unwind things that happened 500.

As far as resentment goes, the resentment towards Jews immigrating to the ME is simply an extreme version of what radical christens in Europe and North America feel towards immigration from Muslim nations. We should either reject the validity of both or accept the validity of both, even though what we mostly see is special pleading as to why immigration one way is fine but immigration the other is wrong.
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Old 10th February 2020, 12:23 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
It makes no more sense to try to unwind things that happened 50 years ago than it does to try to unwind things that happened 500.

As far as resentment goes, the resentment towards Jews immigrating to the ME is simply an extreme version of what radical christens in Europe and North America feel towards immigration from Muslim nations. We should either reject the validity of both or accept the validity of both, even though what we mostly see is special pleading as to why immigration one way is fine but immigration the other is wrong.
I don't agree with everything you say, but this right here nailed it.
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Old 11th February 2020, 02:07 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Why would Jordan want them? The same Jordan that already fought a war with the Palestinians?

Black September.
I know about Black September. I also know that Jordan occupied the West Bank until 1967, and only gave up its claim on that territory in the 1980's. Jordan seemed quite happy to absorb them then.
My point is that there is no meaningful distinction between Jordanians and Palestinian Arabs. Until the creation of the artificial state of Jordan by the British, it was all Palestine.
Black September, and the ongoing refugee crisis, are the result of the unwillingness of pretty much any of the Arab nations to allow the Palestinian Arabs settled status anywhere. They want them kept stateless and unhappy, because they can use them against Israel.
The Jordanian government needs to be pressured into accepting that its citizens are largely Palestinian Arabs, as are the Palestinian Arabs outside their borders, and they really ought to show some kinship and compassion, instead of their current approach.
To include them all in one nation would give the Palestinians autonomy and independence, and also allow Israel to remain a majority Jewish state. As I said, it is for reasons of power politics and, frankly, naked anti-semitism, that this hasn't happened so far. I still think it would be a good solution, though.
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Old 12th February 2020, 01:25 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I know about Black September. I also know that Jordan occupied the West Bank until 1967, and only gave up its claim on that territory in the 1980's. Jordan seemed quite happy to absorb them then.
My point is that there is no meaningful distinction between Jordanians and Palestinian Arabs. Until the creation of the artificial state of Jordan by the British, it was all Palestine.
Black September, and the ongoing refugee crisis, are the result of the unwillingness of pretty much any of the Arab nations to allow the Palestinian Arabs settled status anywhere. They want them kept stateless and unhappy, because they can use them against Israel.
The Jordanian government needs to be pressured into accepting that its citizens are largely Palestinian Arabs, as are the Palestinian Arabs outside their borders, and they really ought to show some kinship and compassion, instead of their current approach.
To include them all in one nation would give the Palestinians autonomy and independence, and also allow Israel to remain a majority Jewish state. As I said, it is for reasons of power politics and, frankly, naked anti-semitism, that this hasn't happened so far. I still think it would be a good solution, though.
The problem is how many other situations could the same argument be used to ethnically cleanse a country. Myanmar could make pretty much the same case word for word about the Rohingya. The Serbians about the Kosovans. This was pretty much the case for the Bantustans in South Africa. Perhaps the same thing was said about the Indian reservations in the US.

Ethnic cleansing is a war crime, in fact it probably became a war crime following certain actions by certain European nations with regard to their minority populations. I don't think that the idea that we can clear out these people and take their homes because they can go and live with you lot over there who look a bit like them, speak the same language and most importantly of all have a different religion from us, is going to be readily accepted.
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Old 13th February 2020, 02:23 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The problem is how many other situations could the same argument be used to ethnically cleanse a country. Myanmar could make pretty much the same case word for word about the Rohingya. The Serbians about the Kosovans. This was pretty much the case for the Bantustans in South Africa. Perhaps the same thing was said about the Indian reservations in the US.

Ethnic cleansing is a war crime, in fact it probably became a war crime following certain actions by certain European nations with regard to their minority populations. I don't think that the idea that we can clear out these people and take their homes because they can go and live with you lot over there who look a bit like them, speak the same language and most importantly of all have a different religion from us, is going to be readily accepted.
One of the issues that bedevils conversations about the Middle East is the use of emotionally-charged language. 'Ethnic cleansing' is a perfect example of this. Nothing I said in the post you are replying to, in fact, nothing I have ever said, ever, could be construed as endorsing 'ethnic cleansing'.
If, by this, you mean the Palestinian Arabs who left what is now Israel, then you appear to be unaware that this was at least in part a voluntary decision. There remains a great deal of uncertainty about exactly how many left because their leaders told them to, and how many were expelled by Israel. However, for you to claim that Israel has a policy of ethnic cleansing would need some actual supporting evidence, which, by the way, would have to account for the Israeli Arabs who have somehow escaped this process.
You also appear unaware of much of the history of the region, as evidenced by your second paragraph. I suggest you read up on the history of the formation of the state of Jordan, and then get back to me with any kind of meaningful distinction you can make between Jordanians and Palestinian Arabs. You might also want to look into how many of the so-called Palestinians were recent immigrants to the area, as opposed to long-term inhabitants.
As a final point, I note that the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Muslim countries in the Middle East and North Africa, of whom it is estimated there were some 400,000, is strangely never on the agenda of the pro-Palestinian Arab contingent. Polarisation is another factor that clouds these debates. Crimes were committed by both sides, and glossing over those of one's favoured side is sadly all too common. The only way to move forward is to accept the situation today: In the short-term at least, Muslims will never live peacefully with Jews in the Middle East, and the Jews will always be fearful, and thus aggressive in their responses, of their Muslim neighbours. It is, IMHO, utterly unrealistic to expect them to share a country. Given the historical fluidity of that region's borders, it is not unreasonable to base a solution on that fact. Get the Arab governments to accept the existence of Israel, get them to allow the Palestinian Arabs the right to live where they are now, and get the Palestinian leadership to stop the endless death threats and 'days of rage', and negotiate seriously for a mutually acceptable solution. This should also involve Israel vacating the West Bank settlements, btw.
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Old 15th February 2020, 05:37 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
OK, let's get going on this thread --- White House announcement is scheduled for noon tomorrow (1-28) regarding the Deal of the Century.

With both Benny's in DC, the President intends to release his plan for peace.

From what I've heard, it contains MAPS. Oy Vey. I hope that Trump didn't draw the new borders on those maps with a Sharpie.

(For reference, the Sykes-Picot boundaries were drawn on maps with thick blue and red grease pencils, and when U-N surveyors in June 2000 went to determine the actual border between Israel and Lebanon and Syria, they found that these pencil lines actually covered many meters on the ground, to full scale).

Skepticism is the most rational position in this problem I'm afraid, unfortunately it is unlikely that there will be a durable solution in the foreseeable future. The biggest stumble block in my view is the religious substratum of the problem, we are far from dealing mainly with a land dispute.

The blame however is not equal, while Israel has its fundamentalists it is by far the lesser problem in the way of a permanent settlement (they are checked by the numerous secular Jews); on the other hand the situation is catastrophic in the islamic world where even those more moderate hold religious motivated beliefs like this, this, this or this (and so on).

Bernard Lewis remarked once that merely applying Western categories (political Left, Right and so on) to the Islamic world without adding Islam as the most important factor shaping politics there is a huge fallacy. i would say that we should not expect any viable solution in this problem until the Islamic religious factor is contained by the liberal forces in the Arab world, unfortunately something far from being the case today.
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Old 15th February 2020, 05:55 PM   #112
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Double post.
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Old 16th February 2020, 05:26 AM   #113
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The biggest stumble block in my view is the religious substratum of the problem...

Especially when they enforce their views with AK47's.


Also, let's look at this passage from BATTLEGROUND (written in the 1970's)

on the topic of self-determination ---------------------------


Living as a minority is acceptable everywhere you look.
Unequal minorities are the norm throughout the MidEast.
It's especially grotesque to focus on one country that has a (somewhat)
disparate status for their minority citizens, while all across the
region, all other massive human-rights violations, killings,
discrimination and barbarism against minorities are routinely IGNORED.

(Here we are in 2020, and many people are making a big deal of this
issue of Jews trying to maintain a Jewish-majority State, but not a
peep when the Arabs do the same thing in their myriad
Islamic-majority States.)

"Self-determination" is NOT possible for everyone everywhere.
Coexistence between different ethnic groups inside of one political
unit is not the happiest condition on earth.
Mankind has failed however, to discover the formula that will make
self-determination possible for every group of people.
10% of the world's population lives as minorities.

And what of the Arabs? The Arab nations harbor clear-cut and religious
minorities living among them, and those make up probably 1/4 of the
entire demographics of all Arab States together.
The Arabs in their States have accommodated themselves enthusiastically
to this universally sanctified phenomenon.
Arabs live as majorities and rule over their minorities, sometimes
discriminating against them moderately, sometimes exercising brutal
repression, everywhere without embarrassment.
It would be absurd to suggest that there is something wrong, unjust, or
immoral, in the Arab-Palestinians living as a minority among the Jews
of Israel.

----- excerpt from BATTLEGROUND by Samuel Katz 1973
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Old 18th February 2020, 08:39 AM   #114
Planigale
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The biggest stumble block in my view is the religious substratum of the problem...

Especially when they enforce their views with AK47's.


Also, let's look at this passage from BATTLEGROUND (written in the 1970's)

on the topic of self-determination ---------------------------


Living as a minority is acceptable everywhere you look.
Unequal minorities are the norm throughout the MidEast.
It's especially grotesque to focus on one country that has a (somewhat)
disparate status for their minority citizens, while all across the
region, all other massive human-rights violations, killings,
discrimination and barbarism against minorities are routinely IGNORED.

(Here we are in 2020, and many people are making a big deal of this
issue of Jews trying to maintain a Jewish-majority State, but not a
peep when the Arabs do the same thing in their myriad
Islamic-majority States.)

"Self-determination" is NOT possible for everyone everywhere.
Coexistence between different ethnic groups inside of one political
unit is not the happiest condition on earth.
Mankind has failed however, to discover the formula that will make
self-determination possible for every group of people.
10% of the world's population lives as minorities.

And what of the Arabs? The Arab nations harbor clear-cut and religious
minorities living among them, and those make up probably 1/4 of the
entire demographics of all Arab States together.
The Arabs in their States have accommodated themselves enthusiastically
to this universally sanctified phenomenon.
Arabs live as majorities and rule over their minorities, sometimes
discriminating against them moderately, sometimes exercising brutal
repression, everywhere without embarrassment.
It would be absurd to suggest that there is something wrong, unjust, or
immoral, in the Arab-Palestinians living as a minority among the Jews
of Israel.

----- excerpt from BATTLEGROUND by Samuel Katz 1973
Essentially all this says if other people do bad stuff then it justifies us doing bad stuff.

I think a better case would be no one should do bad stuff.
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Old 18th February 2020, 09:06 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Essentially all this says if other people do bad stuff then it justifies us doing bad stuff.

I think a better case would be no one should do bad stuff.
That's not at all what it says.
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Old 18th February 2020, 09:25 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Essentially all this says if other people do bad stuff then it justifies us doing bad stuff.
That's not even close to what it essentially says. It might be what you wish it said.
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Old 18th February 2020, 09:58 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
That's not at all what it says.
Of course it is, you try to bring up things to go forward and people drag out past grievances in a case of whataboutism. That is how these arguments always go.
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Old 18th February 2020, 03:31 PM   #118
metacristi
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The biggest stumble block in my view is the religious substratum of the problem...

Especially when they enforce their views with AK47's.


Also, let's look at this passage from BATTLEGROUND (written in the 1970's)

on the topic of self-determination ---------------------------

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............


There is ample evidence that Israel offers much better conditions to the Arabs living there, contrary to what some say the problem is rather that many muslims still cannot accept the existence of a Jewish state. Mainly on religious grounds, history offers strong support here, indeed they repeatedly rejected both the one state solution (proposed by the British in the 1930s and the UN minority report from 1947, when they were majority and could have dominated the political scene) and the two state solution which became the main goal after 1947 (if they 'accepted' it that's only provisionally, following Muhammad's example with the peace of Hudaybiyyah). I'd say that the Islamic factor should become way weaker even to see a durable two states solution (of course a one state, secular and modern, is the ideal solution but it would be difficult to implement it even if Islam were to go, i am skeptical that secular muslims from Palestine would accept a state dominated politically by Jews). While the Israeli are also part of the problem it is the Arabs who have to do a lot of changes to even have a chance for a lasting peace.

As PLO leader Zuheir Mohsen summarized more or less the problem in an interview in 1977, although of course some alterations are likely, situation changed since then (what is not clearly stated is that the ultimate goal it to push the Jews out, even to kill them, but this is known from elsewhere: "Palestine is an Arab land from the river to the sea"):

Quote:
The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality, today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.

"For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan

Palestine - The Invention of a Nation
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Old Today, 04:32 PM   #119
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This “peace” plan = apartheid, contempt, bad-faith, denial of the humanity of Palestinians, and a political gift to noted indicted criminal Benjamin Netanyahu.

Fitting that the arrogant trust-funder who designed it couldn’t even get a White House security clearance because he was so compromised, so he had to get his historically corrupt, impeached father-in-law’s help.

Palestinians would have been absolute fools to accept this farce. Fortunately, they are not and have soundly rejected the hubris of these entitled pricks.
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