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Old 1st February 2020, 02:50 AM   #1
Darat
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UK, time for a referendum on joining the EU?

I think it is time that we legislate for a referendum on joining the EU.

We have a huge number of young people that can really benefit from joining it, from education to job opportunities, if we joined today an 18 year old will have the right to work in over 20 countries, plus we would be able to attract qualified people for our NHSs without government involvement. We'd also have no barriers to struggle over in regards to trade, and suddenly we are the biggest trading partnership in the world.

Hard to think of any negatives to joining the EU.

Hopefully we will see over the coming years a building of a real cross party coalition in support of EU membership.
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Old 1st February 2020, 02:58 AM   #2
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how would you deal with the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland?
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Old 1st February 2020, 03:04 AM   #3
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No, no, no. Let's make Britain Great again. Colonise half the world and abuse the rights of the locals.

Isn't that what we have all been waiting for?

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Old 1st February 2020, 04:19 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
how would you deal with the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland?
We already have an agreement with the Republic that covers that so I'd say continue with that.
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Old 1st February 2020, 05:00 AM   #5
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Referendums are too easy to manipulate. We'll just see more of the likes of Arron Banks, Russian interference, Trump interference, Cambridge Analytika, malefactors, miscreants, vile wretches, tricksters, hucksters and swindlers.

And then we have the great British public, like these two geniuses.
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Old 1st February 2020, 12:25 PM   #6
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I was very interested to learn in that link how Finland is teaching their children in school how to tell disinformation from information. I am becoming more and more impressed by Finland's schools!
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Old 1st February 2020, 01:29 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng View Post
I was very interested to learn in that link how Finland is teaching their children in school how to tell disinformation from information. I am becoming more and more impressed by Finland's schools!
Watch out. Any minute now a certain poster will be along to switch nationality.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 01:54 AM   #8
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I think it's unlikely, because once you're out, you have to negotiate joining as if you were never in. Which means negotiating from scratch why you don't want to use the Euro. And I'm under the impression that that tends to be a rather important thing in the UK.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 04:07 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I think it's unlikely, because once you're out, you have to negotiate joining as if you were never in. Which means negotiating from scratch why you don't want to use the Euro. And I'm under the impression that that tends to be a rather important thing in the UK.
Why wouldn't we want to join the Euro?
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Old 3rd February 2020, 04:41 AM   #10
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Not sure, tbh. You probably know better than I do what the general opinion about that is in the UK. It's just the general impression I have from outside that the Brits are kinda found of the pound. But then I'm not basing that on any hard evidence, so I may very well be wrong about it.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 04:48 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Not sure, tbh. You probably know better than I do what the general opinion about that is in the UK. It's just the general impression I have from outside that the Brits are kinda found of the pound. But then I'm not basing that on any hard evidence, so I may very well be wrong about it.
The older idiots are dying off.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 05:01 AM   #12
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It doesn't seem realistic that a new referendum could be held before the Tories are out of office, so that's four to five years in the future I'd think. Still, it may be a good idea to begin preparations for it as soon as possible by forming a campaign organization.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 05:20 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng View Post
Still, it may be a good idea to begin preparations for it as soon as possible by forming a campaign organization hiring someone to write an interminable series of fabricated newspaper stories about how **** it is not being in the EU.
FTFY. Except that they may not need to fabricate anything this time round...

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Old 3rd February 2020, 06:30 AM   #14
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The problem with calling for a referendum is that the country has several times voted for the pro-Brexit government. They had plenty of time to consider just how they were lied to about Brexit's benefits and how the whole thing would turn out for them individually. And they still decided to keep the pro-Brexit government alive.

I find it all rather funny in a macabre way. The EU, if they really worked together as a unified trading power, would be very strong competitors in the world economy, and thus world politics. Take of Britain and you've now got one competitor in the race who's missing a foot and one that's just a foot. Europe has been fighting with itself for thousands of years. A United States of Europe would be close to unstoppable.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 06:43 AM   #15
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The past is the past.

Time we looked to the future, and a lot of people I know would love us to join the EU. Can't stay wallowing in the past.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 06:47 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think it is time that we legislate for a referendum on joining the EU.

We have a huge number of young people that can really benefit from joining it, from education to job opportunities, if we joined today an 18 year old will have the right to work in over 20 countries, plus we would be able to attract qualified people for our NHSs without government involvement. We'd also have no barriers to struggle over in regards to trade, and suddenly we are the biggest trading partnership in the world.

Hard to think of any negatives to joining the EU.

Hopefully we will see over the coming years a building of a real cross party coalition in support of EU membership.
You're completely missing the very large section of our society who won't stand for their bananas being too bent, from "blahdy foreigners" taking "all our jobs", "fakin' immigrants, you blahdy take 'em" all the while insisting on knowing, "where's my bloody mahney bein' spent then?" whilst worrying that, "the buggers'll steal our pahnd".

They simply won't stand for it and will slavishly vote according to the instructions of their daily red top.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:14 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
You're completely missing the very large section of our society who won't stand for their bananas being too bent, from "blahdy foreigners" taking "all our jobs", "fakin' immigrants, you blahdy take 'em" all the while insisting on knowing, "where's my bloody mahney bein' spent then?" whilst worrying that, "the buggers'll steal our pahnd".



They simply won't stand for it and will slavishly vote according to the instructions of their daily red top.
Thankfully looking at the voting habits many of these are dying off quite quickly. Indeed with us struggling to employee nurses, and doctors and carers they are going to be dying off even faster over the next few years.

And perhaps some will be able to be persuaded to change their opinions when they understand that being part of the EU would make it much easier for us to employ health and social care staff?
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:20 AM   #18
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Yes, well, if the idiots in the UK are anything like the idiots in Germany -- or indeed, idiots worldwide, since humans are humans everywhere -- they'll find some way to rationalize that they lack nurses or had to wait for 5 hours to be seen by a doctor, as the fault of the bloody refugees taking the jobs.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:27 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Thankfully looking at the voting habits many of these are dying off quite quickly. Indeed with us struggling to employee nurses, and doctors and carers they are going to be dying off even faster over the next few years.

And perhaps some will be able to be persuaded to change their opinions when they understand that being part of the EU would make it much easier for us to employ health and social care staff?
Unfortunately I think there are more middle aged voters who are backing Brexit and don't seem to care if there are no health workers, as long as the health workers we have are not foreign.

I am basing this on nothing scientific, just from what I hear at work, at the pub, in the high street.

The ridiculous thing is that, where I work we are continually understaffed, pressured into working extra hours to cover the lack of staff despite the company having set up recruitment centres abroad and employing a fair number of EU nationals, yet there are still complaints about bloody foreigners taking our jobs.

I think they will feel the hit more when they realise their coffee shops are closing due to lack of staff.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:38 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Yes, well, if the idiots in the UK are anything like the idiots in Germany -- or indeed, idiots worldwide, since humans are humans everywhere -- they'll find some way to rationalize that they lack nurses or had to wait for 5 hours to be seen by a doctor, as the fault of the bloody refugees taking the jobs.
.... or refugees blocking beds and abusing resources as they receive health care having taken a fall down the stairs of their local authority funded, 4 roomed house as they were counting their £25k benefits, having arrived in the UK last week.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:54 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think it is time that we legislate for a referendum on joining the EU.
How often do you think such referenda should be held? And supposing you join again, how long after that till you vote again to see if you changed your mind and want to leave?

Or is this one of those, keep voting until you get the "right" answer and then stop voting? Democracy is like a train: you get off when you reach your destination.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:55 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The past is the past.

Time we looked to the future, and a lot of people I know would love us to join the EU. Can't stay wallowing in the past.
"But tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward; upward, not forward; and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom!"
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:56 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The older idiots are dying off.
In an aging population the rate at which old idiots are generated exceeds the rate at which old idiots die off.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 08:22 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How often do you think such referenda should be held? And supposing you join again, how long after that till you vote again to see if you changed your mind and want to leave?

Or is this one of those, keep voting until you get the "right" answer and then stop voting? Democracy is like a train: you get off when you reach your destination.
The Brexit referendum itself was structured such that it pitted a single well defined option (remain in the EU) against a wide range of mutually exclusive versions of Brexit. There is no single version of Brexit that was anywhere near a popular as remaining in the EU. In fact, the current version of Brexit looks very much like everything the “Leave” campaign promised would not happen.

There seems to be increased support for “just leave anyway” even though it’s terrible for the UK economy and threatens to re-ignite violence in Northern Ireland. It’s so bad economically for many of the strongest “leave” regions I find it difficult to see it winning a referendum where the options are to remain in the EU or leave under the current plan.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 08:23 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Democracy is like a train: you get off when you reach your destination.
In what universe does that apply? Democracy is a way of making decisions. If the decisions can't be ever changed further on down the road then you don't have a democracy any more. There is no destination.

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Old 3rd February 2020, 08:32 AM   #26
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Wouldn't it just be easier to have a referendum about the EU joining the UK?
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Old 3rd February 2020, 08:43 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
In what universe does that apply? Democracy is a way of making decisions. If the decisions can't be ever changed further on down the road then you don't have a democracy any more. There is no destination.

Dave
You missed my point, which is that plenty of people like to use the trappings of democracy to achieve their political goals without actually believing in its substance. The phrasing comes from Recep Erdogan, who said pretty much the same thing except he was serious.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 09:00 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You missed my point, which is that plenty of people like to use the trappings of democracy to achieve their political goals without actually believing in its substance. The phrasing comes from Recep Erdogan, who said pretty much the same thing except he was serious.
Ah, I see. But the comments and actions of a Turkish government leader couldn't possibly have anything to do with the current British political situation, could it?

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Old 3rd February 2020, 09:03 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Ah, I see. But the comments and actions of a Turkish government leader couldn't possibly have anything to do with the current British political situation, could it?

Dave
The EU has a track record of repeating votes until it gets the answer it wants, after which no more votes are needed on the issue. I was speculating if a rejoin referenda would follow that pattern.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 09:06 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The EU has a track record of repeating votes until it gets the answer it wants, after which no more votes are needed on the issue. I was speculating if a rejoin referenda would follow that pattern.
And this time I was being ironic.

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Old 3rd February 2020, 09:13 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
And this time I was being ironic.

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Alas, irony can be hard to properly convey or read over the internet, and I am not immune to such failings.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 09:20 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How often do you think such referenda should be held? And supposing you join again, how long after that till you vote again to see if you changed your mind and want to leave?



Or is this one of those, keep voting until you get the "right" answer and then stop voting? Democracy is like a train: you get off when you reach your destination.
Whenever people can persuade their representatives to push for such a referendum of course.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 09:21 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The EU has a track record of repeating votes until it gets the answer it wants, after which no more votes are needed on the issue. I was speculating if a rejoin referenda would follow that pattern.
I doubt it does.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 09:55 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Thankfully looking at the voting habits many of these are dying off quite quickly. Indeed with us struggling to employee nurses, and doctors and carers they are going to be dying off even faster over the next few years.

And perhaps some will be able to be persuaded to change their opinions when they understand that being part of the EU would make it much easier for us to employ health and social care staff?
But they can have all the Prawn Cocktail crisps they want while they are not getting any care. So another acceleration to the die off I guess.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 10:50 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Watch out. Any minute now a certain poster will be along to switch nationality.
That wouldn't be the Irish guy would it, commenting on non-Irish matters...?
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Old 3rd February 2020, 11:26 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I doubt it does.
Well... It does, but the bit that tends not to be mentioned is that it amends prospective legislation to address the reasons it was rejected between the votes. A little detail that makes the difference between "dictatorship" and "surely this is a sensible way for a democratic process to work".
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Old 3rd February 2020, 11:28 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But they can have all the Prawn Cocktail crisps they want while they are not getting any care. So another acceleration to the die off I guess.
Plus they can have all the carcinogenic jam colouring, unrefridgerated kippers and newspaper ink infused fish and chips their tiny, withered hearts desire.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 11:30 AM   #38
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Wouldn't it just be easier to have a referendum about the EU joining the UK?
I suppose we could rename it to "The British Empire" and use the pound instead of the Euro
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Old 3rd February 2020, 11:34 AM   #39
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
.... or refugees blocking beds and abusing resources as they receive health care having taken a fall down the stairs of their local authority funded, 4 roomed house as they were counting their £25k benefits, having arrived in the UK last week.
That would be almost sane, though.

I wasn't kidding. Before the refugees crisis and all, friend of mine was getting gas at a gas station, and this really old and presumably retired lady comes and starts complaining about how she got a new car every year, but this year she can't afford one. And it's the fault of those damn cheap Poles coming and taking all the jobs.

Exactly what did they take from her, or how cheap labour is to blame for more expensive cars, that wasn't particularly clear.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 11:35 AM   #40
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I suppose we could rename it to "The British Empire" and use the pound instead of the Euro
What would the SNP do in this scenario?
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