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Old 6th February 2020, 09:53 AM   #81
ahhell
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The lad isn't gay and he wasn't choosing to have any sort of romantic relationship. The persistence was entirely on Mackay's side. The lad didn't tell him to go away, but then if a cabinet minister is making friendly overtures to you, at that age you're likely to be a bit overawed and not to break off the conversation.
Which is why I previously said this is a bit weird but not all that creepy, if it were up to me, I'd leave this up to the voters rather than forcing him out of office.
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Old 6th February 2020, 09:56 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't see Rolfe's context as helpful to him. If anything, it's more damning. Seems this guy has a history of sexualizing situations in which it is totally inappropriate. He shouldn't be subjecting his colleagues and volunteers to his weird flirty comments.
That's why I said he was crass. But there is a huge difference in between being crass and foot in the mouth to being creepy and grooming. That's what I meant about Rolfe's info being the missing part of the puzzle for me.
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Old 6th February 2020, 10:05 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's why I said he was crass. But there is a huge difference in between being crass and foot in the mouth to being creepy and grooming. That's what I meant about Rolfe's info being the missing part of the puzzle for me.
Maybe creep has a different context in the UK. I would consider anyone that needlessly asserts unwanted sexuality on people as being creepy, even if they aren't really attempting to manipulate or achieve anything.

I don't see this as grooming either. Maybe he thought he could wheedle enough to get this young man to relent, which is pretty pathetic and gross.

He forgot the first commandment. Never be horny on main.
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Old 6th February 2020, 10:15 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Maybe creep has a different context in the UK. I would consider anyone that needlessly asserts unwanted sexuality on people as being creepy, even if they aren't really attempting to manipulate or achieve anything.
As far as I'm concerned, things and people are creepy when their behaviour is suspicious enough to arouse worry, yet at the same time avoid being explicit enough that their intentions are clear.

It's like how masks can be perceived as creepy. No matter if it's a big of a smile or a frowny face on a mask, you can never be sure of the wearers emotional state.

In that sense his actions come off not as being creepy, but rather as some combination of desperation, lack of tact and being love struck.
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Old 6th February 2020, 10:31 AM   #85
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I think the ambiguity of motive and situation is exactly what people find creepy about teenager-v-twice-their-age. It *could* be a particularly mature and together teenager totally confident in what they’re getting up to, with a genuine and actually great older person who’s just thrilled at the attention themselves. It could also be some immature and inexperienced teenager who’s getting taken for a ride by some confidence trickster who convinced them that they care. You don’t know. It’s often not obvious by looking.
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Old 6th February 2020, 10:38 AM   #86
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But against that backdrop, it would be foolish for the governing party to wait for the voters to decide. The next Scottish elections are 2021 so strategically getting rid of him now allows a "clean" sitting member to be safely ensconced at a time when - frankly - the SNP are the only real show in town.
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Old 6th February 2020, 10:39 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
For the last year I've been working with a wide group of people of different ages, including quite a few 16 to 19 year olds and I have to admit I am very conscious of my interactions with them to ensure I don't say anything that could be deemed inappropriate. But thinking about it I probably am overly careful given I am a homosexual man in his fifties, perhaps that is wrong but it is the way of the world, so I've no sympathy for his stupidity but I don't think he was grooming the 16 year old.

I am not sure. The part where he asks the boy to confirm that these messages are private is a bit of a red flag.

Also, we don't want a stupid finance minister. I'm glad he has resigned. Mind you, someone said the lassie who gave the budget speech in his place, his probable successor, is a creationist and a homophobe, so of that's the case bye-bye frying pan and hello fire.
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Old 6th February 2020, 11:06 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Firstly, although there is no evidence of any illegal activity (16 not being a minor in Scotland) this is nonetheless a serious error of judgement on the part of a senior Scottish government minister. Mr. McKay is 42/43 and it should have been obvious that a 26 year age gap was inappropriate.


The question is therefore what sanction, if any, accrues. His resignation as a minister has happened, but is he expecting a few years on the back benches then back to the fore? Should calls for his resignation as an MSP be heeded?


My gut reaction is that he should be consigned to the back benches for a lengthy period, given the lapse of judgement, and preferably left there. Resignation from his seat, although doubtless on the lips of Unionist-leaning press outlets, seems excessive where there is no hint of illegality.
26 year age gap is several years less than US Senator from California Kamala Harris and her former lover had. This forum seemed to be okay with that. Then, there's an even wider age gap that caused some to raise eyebrows on this forum, but not a word of criticism.
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Old 6th February 2020, 11:11 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
I think the ambiguity of motive and situation is exactly what people find creepy about teenager-v-twice-their-age. It *could* be a particularly mature and together teenager totally confident in what they’re getting up to, with a genuine and actually great older person who’s just thrilled at the attention themselves. It could also be some immature and inexperienced teenager who’s getting taken for a ride by some confidence trickster who convinced them that they care. You don’t know. It’s often not obvious by looking.
I think you're right about ambiguity being a factor in creepiness. If it had just been an older man asking a teenager directly "hey, you want to fool around?" and the teenager saying "no, thanks" it wouldn't have been as creepy. Maybe somewhat creepy, or crass, or sleazy, but not as creepy as the stalkerlike behavior of repeated messaging.
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Old 6th February 2020, 11:13 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
26 year age gap is several years less than US Senator from California Kamala Harris and her former lover had. This forum seemed to be okay with that. Then, there's an even wider age gap that caused some to raise eyebrows on this forum, but not a word of criticism.

I am given to understand that Ms. Harris was around 30 at the time of that relationship. That would, I suggest, be somewhat different to a case involving someone who has only just turned 16. I likewise observe that "this forum" is hardly a monolithic beast - not all of us grace the US politics section.
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Old 6th February 2020, 11:19 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
I think the ambiguity of motive and situation is exactly what people find creepy about teenager-v-twice-their-age. It *could* be a particularly mature and together teenager totally confident in what they’re getting up to, with a genuine and actually great older person who’s just thrilled at the attention themselves. It could also be some immature and inexperienced teenager who’s getting taken for a ride by some confidence trickster who convinced them that they care. You don’t know. It’s often not obvious by looking.
I'm not really feeling creeped out by the thought of someone seducing a 16 while pretending to love them, unless I'm imagining them being a cannibal serial killer or something.

If he really just wanted to have sex with a 16 year old boy, let alone try to seduce one, he should work on his ability to tell whether people are receptive to his advances, and perhaps consider a change of venue.
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Old 6th February 2020, 11:20 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
I am given to understand that Ms. Harris was around 30 at the time of that relationship. That would, I suggest, be somewhat different to a case involving someone who has only just turned 16.
So what? Age of consent is 16 in Scotland* so you appear to believe a 16 year old is not capable of making sexual and romantic decisions like an adult. Maybe you should campaign to have Scotland raise the age of consent.
Originally Posted by Architect View Post
I likewise observe that "this forum" is hardly a monolithic beast.
I likewise observe that this forum is.

*age of consent is also 16 in many states in the US, NB4 "OmG! UsA aGe is 41 bEcaUSE FOx NEwS TrMP SuPoReters REEEEEE!!!!"

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Old 6th February 2020, 11:25 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I'm not really feeling creeped out by the thought of someone seducing a 16 while pretending to love them, unless I'm imagining them being a cannibal serial killer or something.

If he really just wanted to have sex with a 16 year old boy, let alone try to seduce one, he should work on his ability to tell whether people are receptive to his advances, and perhaps consider a change of venue.
Hire one, you mean? At least that method removes ambiguity.
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Old 6th February 2020, 11:26 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think you're right about ambiguity being a factor in creepiness. If it had just been an older man asking a teenager directly "hey, you want to fool around?" and the teenager saying "no, thanks" it wouldn't have been as creepy. Maybe somewhat creepy, or crass, or sleazy, but not as creepy as the stalkerlike behavior of repeated messaging.
Yeah I guess.

If he became obsessed with him, and failed to recognize that his advances are going nowhere, one wonders how it would have ended.
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Old 6th February 2020, 11:40 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Hire one, you mean? At least that method removes ambiguity.
This guy looked pretty good, so unless he lived in the middle of nowhere it does not seem unlikely that he would find someone else in 6 months... without making himself guilty of child prostitution.

I mean there are dating and hookup sites that allow teenagers, including those aged 16, to be on them. That includes gay or bisexual 16 year olds.
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Old 6th February 2020, 11:42 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
26 year age gap is several years less than US Senator from California Kamala Harris and her former lover had. This forum seemed to be okay with that. Then, there's an even wider age gap that caused some to raise eyebrows on this forum, but not a word of criticism.
Yep, and not much different from the age cap between the President and his wife, 24 years. We all know Dump likes 'em young, like his pal Jeffrey.

What's your point?
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Old 6th February 2020, 11:42 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
This guy looked pretty good, so unless he lived in the middle of nowhere it does not seem unlikely that he would find someone else in 6 months... without making himself guilty of child prostitution.

I mean there are dating and hookup sites that allow teenagers, including those aged 16, to be on them. That includes gay or bisexual 16 year olds.
Wait, what? Are 16 year olds not allowed to be sex workers in Scotland? Even though they're AOC?
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Old 6th February 2020, 11:51 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Wait, what? Are 16 year olds not allowed to be sex workers in Scotland? Even though they're AOC?


That's not right. She's 30...
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Old 6th February 2020, 11:58 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
That's not right. She's 30...
That's a bit low considering what her day job pays.
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Old 6th February 2020, 12:00 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't see Rolfe's context as helpful to him. If anything, it's more damning. Seems this guy has a history of sexualizing situations in which it is totally inappropriate. He shouldn't be subjecting his colleagues and volunteers to his weird flirty comments.
Yeah, who does he think he is, Joe Biden?
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Old 6th February 2020, 12:23 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
He lost his right to not be considered a potential romantic and sex partner when he came of age, tough ****. Maybe his parents should have taught him to stand up for himself and say no. He's 16 years old for ***** sake.
I think it may be interesting to read some of the articles from #metoo. Older women (ie in their 20s) who felt coerced into sexual relationships by older men in positions of authority. In the abstract it is easy to say you should have just said no, but it proves different when you are there. This guy was a senior politician, he had lots of power and influence (at least within Scotland and the SNP).

I wonder if we may find a number of younger party workers may come out and say that they felt pressurised into sexual relationships.
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Old 6th February 2020, 12:27 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Wait, what? Are 16 year olds not allowed to be sex workers in Scotland? Even though they're AOC?
You have to be 18 to be a sex worker. Between 16 and 18 you just have to put out for free, but hopefully you gain the expertise to justify people paying for it once you turn 18.
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Old 6th February 2020, 12:28 PM   #103
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To be honest I've got more of a problem with him going a-flirting when he's got a long-term partner. But that aspect seems to be largely ignored.
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Old 6th February 2020, 12:28 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I think it may be interesting to read some of the articles from #metoo. Older women (ie in their 20s) who felt coerced into sexual relationships by older men in positions of authority. In the abstract it is easy to say you should have just said no, but it proves different when you are there. This guy was a senior politician, he had lots of power and influence (at least within Scotland and the SNP).

I think the tactics employed by the men you describe are less likely to work in an environment where losing your job is less of a total disaster.

That is, I think a strong social safety net is likely to reduce the instances of what you describe above.

I am guessing with no data.
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Old 6th February 2020, 01:22 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
To be honest I've got more of a problem with him going a-flirting when he's got a long-term partner. But that aspect seems to be largely ignored.
I think that is a private issue between them. A significant number of gay male* couples seem to have a level of openness that permits what is I think termed an open marriage (40% in article below).
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...ips-work-study
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Old 6th February 2020, 01:24 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think the tactics employed by the men you describe are less likely to work in an environment where losing your job is less of a total disaster.

That is, I think a strong social safety net is likely to reduce the instances of what you describe above.

I am guessing with no data.
I have not read the actual exchanges, but if the young man was interested in politics that would seem like an area where jobs are dependant on mentors.
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Old 6th February 2020, 01:44 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I think it may be interesting to read some of the articles from #metoo. Older women (ie in their 20s) who felt coerced into sexual relationships by older men in positions of authority. In the abstract it is easy to say you should have just said no, but it proves different when you are there. This guy was a senior politician, he had lots of power and influence (at least within Scotland and the SNP).

I wonder if we may find a number of younger party workers may come out and say that they felt pressurised into sexual relationships.
In this case though, I'm not buying the idea that he was so imposing that someone without any professional or personal relationship with him would feel unable to say no to his advances.

It's not like he's some local magistrate that has leverage on everyone.
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Old 6th February 2020, 04:57 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I think it may be interesting to read some of the articles from #metoo. Older women (ie in their 20s) who felt coerced into sexual relationships by older men in positions of authority. In the abstract it is easy to say you should have just said no, but it proves different when you are there. This guy was a senior politician, he had lots of power and influence (at least within Scotland and the SNP).

I wonder if we may find a number of younger party workers may come out and say that they felt pressurised into sexual relationships.

Have a coconut.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...?OCID=AVRES007
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Old 6th February 2020, 05:30 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Looks like a typical sexual harasser, except that he targeted young men rather than young women.

Did he not know how to use dating apps or hookup apps? Seems that it would be easy to find willing young gay or bi men, but maybe he had a "straight" fetish? Like The Eagles said, we always seem to want the things that we can't have.
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Old 6th February 2020, 05:31 PM   #110
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Gay men reportedly found him attractive and there was no shortage of willing partners around. He was also in a long-term relationship. This guy is poison and just one of the serious political liabilities in the present-day SNP.
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Old 6th February 2020, 06:01 PM   #111
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Deep, deep joy.


https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...p-conferences/
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Old 6th February 2020, 07:24 PM   #112
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It's weird that anyone would suggest this guy shouldn't have resigned. Even if he had no intent of grooming (doubtful but benefit of doubt) and kept everything within the bounds of the law, the optics are terrible and his effectiveness as a politician dropped to near-zero. Why take up the space that could be filled by someone who may still actually be able to get things done?

Is it right that he should be left with the choice between resignation and being considered toxic by his colleagues? Maybe not, but "politics is the art of the possible," and his actions made his situation impossible.
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Old 6th February 2020, 08:04 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yep, and not much different from the age cap between the President and his wife, 24 years. We all know Dump likes 'em young, like his pal Jeffrey.

What's your point?
The point is Architect first said it was the age gap that was inappropriate, then he changed his argument and said it was the boy's age made the text messages inappropriate.

That was the point.
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Old 6th February 2020, 08:54 PM   #114
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
What's the maximum age gap for social interaction, do you think?

Half your age + 7
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Old 6th February 2020, 11:41 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The point is Architect first said it was the age gap that was inappropriate, then he changed his argument and said it was the boy's age made the text messages inappropriate.

That was the point.

You are incorrect.
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Old 7th February 2020, 12:24 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Half your age + 7
Plus 7?!?! I thought it was Minus 7!!!!!

Holy crap!
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Old 7th February 2020, 01:33 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
You can view the thought of a 42 year old man being in a relationship, and having sex, with a 16 year old as being disgusting on a purely visceral basis. But "creepy"?
I view a 42 year old continuously pestering a 16-year-old over several months with hints at a romantic interest despite the boy's apparent repeated attempts to tactfully convey that he is not interested "creepy", yes.

Reading the article in the OP and ancillary articles it links to, none of the text seems particularly salacious; but there is definitely a concerning pattern to them, namely that it there is no "relationship" - or rather that whatever relationship such as it exists is an entirely one-sided affair that the 16-year-old never at any time appears to actually want. Mackay repeatedly contacts the boy with requests for personal meetings, the boy consistently attempts to rebuff these invitations with excuses while trying to be polite, and Mackay consistently attempts to push through them. The boy at one point even completely makes up a circumstance that his younger brother has been gravely injured in an accident and he must stay with the injured sibling in the hospital, just to avoid a meeting with Mackay. That strikes me as pretty desperate.

The most troubling to me is when Mackay asks the kid, who he initiated contact with completely out of the blue and who has never once expressed any personal interested in him whatsoever, if their messages are just "between us", and then volunteers his sexual orientation. It suggests to me that Mackay viewed his own communication with the boy in a certain light.
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Old 7th February 2020, 01:35 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
You are incorrect.
To be honest, that's hardly a first...
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Old 7th February 2020, 01:49 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I view a 42 year old continuously pestering a 16-year-old over several months with hints at a romantic interest despite the boy's apparent repeated attempts to tactfully convey that he is not interested "creepy", yes.

Reading the article in the OP and ancillary articles it links to, none of the text seems particularly salacious; but there is definitely a concerning pattern to them, namely that it there is no "relationship" - or rather that whatever relationship such as it exists is an entirely one-sided affair that the 16-year-old never at any time appears to actually want. Mackay repeatedly contacts the boy with requests for personal meetings, the boy consistently attempts to rebuff these invitations with excuses while trying to be polite, and Mackay consistently attempts to push through them. The boy at one point even completely makes up a circumstance that his younger brother has been gravely injured in an accident and he must stay with the injured sibling in the hospital, just to avoid a meeting with Mackay. That strikes me as pretty desperate.

The most troubling to me is when Mackay asks the kid, who he initiated contact with completely out of the blue and who has never once expressed any personal interested in him whatsoever, if their messages are just "between us", and then volunteers his sexual orientation. It suggests to me that Mackay viewed his own communication with the boy in a certain light.
As far as I'm concerned, the age of the individual in question seems irrelevant. You could argue that it makes it worse, but I have no doubt that the same turn of events could have occurred had they been 21 or 31 years old.

But that's what the news articles focused on: the sex of the people involved and their age. The fact that his behaviour would clearly come off as undesirable and constituting harrassment was, and still is, apparently a point that's not very important to emphasize.
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Last edited by Arcade22; 7th February 2020 at 01:51 AM.
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Old 7th February 2020, 02:10 AM   #120
Architect
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
As far as I'm concerned, the age of the individual in question seems irrelevant. You could argue that it makes it worse, but I have no doubt that the same turn of events could have occurred had they been 21 or 31 years old.

But that's what the news articles focused on: the sex of the people involved and their age. The fact that his behaviour would clearly come off as undesirable and constituting harrassment was, and still is, apparently a point that's not very important to emphasize.

I think you'll find that's not the line taken in the Scottish press including the dead tree edition of the Herald (the biggest broadsheet) - I haven't checked the online edition.
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