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Old 12th February 2020, 08:21 PM   #81
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
However, I know of quite a few people from various ethnic minorities and LGBTQ who will do so. For example, "My preferred pronouns are they/their" or "My preferred pronouns are ze/zir". If they have changed their name (for personal reasons, or because of a gender transition), they may also specify what name should be used to refer to them. And if their name may be difficult to pronounce, they may also specify the proper pronunciation.
See my custom title. Though there is absolutely no ambiguity in my gender expression, I put that there to emphasise that it is completely normal for a person to prespecify their pronouns.
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Old 14th February 2020, 01:10 PM   #82
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There seems to be an assumption in many cases (conservatives in relation to protective laws being an example, though I am not necessarily saying this is the politics of anyonehere) to assume that there is no back story - no history of abuse or misunderstanding - that it's just something someone dreamed up for dubious reasons, rather than a response to anything. I would at least consider the possibility that although those who got the memo were offended at the thought that they should need it, enough have in the past.
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Old 14th February 2020, 01:20 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
See my custom title. Though there is absolutely no ambiguity in my gender expression, I put that there to emphasise that it is completely normal for a person to prespecify their pronouns.
It's not completely normal, though. It's actually something of a social outlier. I understand that some people are working hard to normalize it, but that doesn't entitle them to my agreement.
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Old 14th February 2020, 02:37 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
See my custom title. Though there is absolutely no ambiguity in my gender expression, I put that there to emphasise that it is completely normal for a person to prespecify their pronouns.
At a stretch you could argue prespecifying titles is normal like Mrs or Miss or Ms, other generic pronouns she is not normal.

As much as some people wish it to be.
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Old 14th February 2020, 02:56 PM   #85
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Even prespecifying titles like Mr or Ms isn't normal. The only people who begin a social encounter by making sure you call them "Mister" are obnoxious twats. (Those of you who like analogies can see where this is going.)
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Old 15th February 2020, 04:52 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Even prespecifying titles like Mr or Ms isn't normal. The only people who begin a social encounter by making sure you call them "Mister" are obnoxious twats. (Those of you who like analogies can see where this is going.)
Much offense will ensue.
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Old 15th February 2020, 05:04 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
See my custom title. Though there is absolutely no ambiguity in my gender expression, I put that there to emphasise that it is completely normal for a person to prespecify their pronouns.
If it were completely normal, it wouldn't be necessary for you to emphasize it. It would already be clear. As theprestige said, you are trying to help to normalize it. That may or may not be a noble endeavor. I haven't entirely made up my mind as to how I see it yet. But if it had already become normal there'd be no need for you to help.
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Old 15th February 2020, 05:48 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not completely normal, though. It's actually something of a social outlier. I understand that some people are working hard to normalize it, but that doesn't entitle them to my agreement.
It is sad that you think that anyone else requires YOUR agreement to simply be themselves.
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Old 16th February 2020, 09:04 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
If it were completely normal, it wouldn't be necessary for you to emphasize it. It would already be clear. As theprestige said, you are trying to help to normalize it. That may or may not be a noble endeavor. I haven't entirely made up my mind as to how I see it yet. But if it had already become normal there'd be no need for you to help.
Yes, you're correct. I was using loose language. To be more precise, I do it for several reasons. One is that by setting an example, I want to encourage other non-pronoun-ambiguous people to do it too, so that people whose pronouns may be more ambiguous are more comfortable doing it too.

Also so that I receive the scorn of the people who think it's a dumb idea rather than them, who might be more hurt by it than I would.

It takes me very little effort. I've added it to my social media profiles, and to my custom title, and I don't have to think about it again. It's literally the least I can do.
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Old 16th February 2020, 09:06 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
At a stretch you could argue prespecifying titles is normal like Mrs or Miss or Ms, other generic pronouns she is not normal.

As much as some people wish it to be.
It should be. If we want to live in a more inclusive world, it should be. This is one small step towards making the world a better place for everybody, regardless of gender identity or expression.
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Old 17th February 2020, 06:04 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It is sad that you think that anyone else requires YOUR agreement to simply be themselves.
But that's the opposite of what's suggested. Anybody can be themselves however they wish. The issue is that some people want other's buy-in, endorsement, and acknowledgement. I don't care if Pat is male or female. But Pat wants me to agree with their interpretation of what sex they are, and use particular forms of speech to express my agreement. You may conclude I should do so, out of politeness, and you may indeed be right in that conclusion. But don't pretend it's not Pat trying to persuade me to agree with them.
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Old 20th February 2020, 02:23 PM   #92
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Saw this posted to a trans support page on Facebook:



Just sayin'.
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Old 20th February 2020, 02:48 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Saw this posted to a trans support page on Facebook:

https://i.imgur.com/ofwNNOQ.jpg

Just sayin'.
Having trouble translating that into something I can understand.
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Old 20th February 2020, 02:53 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Having trouble translating that into something I can understand.
I think the theory is that if you, a cismale, start declaring your pronouns (he, him), it'll make it harder for people to point and laugh at the transsexual who declares their pronouns (xe, xit).
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Old 20th February 2020, 03:00 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Saw this posted to a trans support page on Facebook:

https://i.imgur.com/ofwNNOQ.jpg

Just sayin'.
Just sayin' what, though?

Just sayin' that declaring pronouns isn't normal yet, but trans-activists are hoping to make it normal soon?
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Old 20th February 2020, 03:35 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think the theory is that if you, a cismale, start declaring your pronouns (he, him), it'll make it harder for people to point and laugh at the transsexual who declares their pronouns (xe, xit).
Don’t understand why anyone would want to be referred to as a xit.
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Old 20th February 2020, 03:47 PM   #97
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People at my work have started declaring their pronouns. At least one cismale has gone so far as to declare (he, him). Solidarity, I guess.

I code pretty thoroughly as cis male. I'm seriously considering declaring (she, her) at work. Management is lowkey encouraging pronouns. And for sure our trans-activist community is into pronouns. I wonder what would happen if my bearded, masculine self went around telling everyone to use (she, her) when referring to me.

Would anyone object? Would anyone even dare question me? If they did, I'd just report them to HR for being intolerant and non-inclusive. Could be interesting.
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Old 20th February 2020, 04:06 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
People at my work have started declaring their pronouns. At least one cismale has gone so far as to declare (he, him). Solidarity, I guess.

I code pretty thoroughly as cis male. I'm seriously considering declaring (she, her) at work. Management is lowkey encouraging pronouns. And for sure our trans-activist community is into pronouns. I wonder what would happen if my bearded, masculine self went around telling everyone to use (she, her) when referring to me.

Would anyone object? Would anyone even dare question me? If they did, I'd just report them to HR for being intolerant and non-inclusive. Could be interesting.
This does sound interesting.

I once offered to be listed as bi-sexual (but in a committed relationship) if it would help my firm meet our client's diversity quota. I wasn't taken up on it, but I think it did help break the ice for one of the gay attorneys who later did come out of the closet officially.

So, maybe you're "experiment" could help those who are struggling with pronoun issues.
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Old 20th February 2020, 04:21 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
See my custom title. Though there is absolutely no ambiguity in my gender expression, I put that there to emphasise that it is completely normal for a person to prespecify their pronouns.
Part of the reason it's not actually normal is that custom pronouns completely defeat the purpose of having pronouns in the first place. If I'm gonna have to remember your special pronouns, I'm just going to remember your name and stick with that.
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Old 20th February 2020, 04:30 PM   #100
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While I recognize that pronouns can be an important issue to some people the pronouns discussed are third person and are commonly used when the person is not present. I have never cared one whit how people might refer to me in the third person. It very rarely even occurs to me that I might be referred to in a conversation. For me personally gender ID in such circumstances is a non issue.

It seems to me that there are a couple of very simple solutions to the pronoun issue without making up numerous new words.
1. Don’t use pronouns. Use the person’s name for all references.
2. Use “that person”. Completely gender neutral. Uses words understood by all English speakers.
Using a combination of 1 and 2 eliminates all pronoun confusion.
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Old 20th February 2020, 04:38 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Part of the reason it's not actually normal is that custom pronouns completely defeat the purpose of having pronouns in the first place. If I'm gonna have to remember your special pronouns, I'm just going to remember your name and stick with that.
No-one uses custom pronouns. I mean, yeah, a few people do, but for the most part people will use they/them rather than one of the many, many different custom pronouns that have been proposed and have never caught on. So in practice you can ignore them.

And I very strongly suggest that you do not misgender yourself at work. That would be a tremendous mistake. If you truly feel that she/her is a better fit, then absolutely use those pronouns. But if you're doing it just to make a point, I guarantee that it will not go well.
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Old Yesterday, 08:55 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
People at my work have started declaring their pronouns. At least one cismale has gone so far as to declare (he, him). Solidarity, I guess.

I code pretty thoroughly as cis male. I'm seriously considering declaring (she, her) at work. Management is lowkey encouraging pronouns. And for sure our trans-activist community is into pronouns. I wonder what would happen if my bearded, masculine self went around telling everyone to use (she, her) when referring to me.

Would anyone object? Would anyone even dare question me? If they did, I'd just report them to HR for being intolerant and non-inclusive. Could be interesting.
Or garbage according to Art's copy of that right on post.
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Old Yesterday, 09:07 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No-one uses custom pronouns. I mean, yeah, a few people do, but for the most part people will use they/them rather than one of the many, many different custom pronouns that have been proposed and have never caught on. So in practice you can ignore them.
I used an extreme example, but really, all trans-gendering pronouns are customizations.

Quote:
And I very strongly suggest that you do not misgender yourself at work. That would be a tremendous mistake. If you truly feel that she/her is a better fit, then absolutely use those pronouns. But if you're doing it just to make a point, I guarantee that it will not go well.
As far as I can tell, not a single person in the world - not you, not Caitlin Jenner, not the Transgender Flipping Messiah Itself - has any standing at all to decide whether I'm doing it to make a point.

Also, how can I misgender myself? If I say (she, her) are my pronouns, and I'm comfortable with that, and I don't fuss when you comply with my pronouns, how is that a "misgender"?

We've already established that people who code as extremely cismale can adopt feminine pronouns without misgendering themselves. We've already established that the misgendering in that case consists entirely of not complying with the declared pronouns.

To the degree that gender is a social construct, and to the degree that it is constructed unilaterally, individually, by each individual to suit their own needs and wants, it's impossible to misgender oneself. Even if one toys with other genders for fun, just for an afternoon, it's still not a misgendering of themselves.
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Old Yesterday, 09:12 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I used an extreme example, but really, all trans-gendering pronouns are customizations.



As far as I can tell, not a single person in the world - not you, not Caitlin Jenner, not the Transgender Flipping Messiah Itself - has any standing at all to decide whether I'm doing it to make a point.

Also, how can I misgender myself? If I say (she, her) are my pronouns, and I'm comfortable with that, and I don't fuss when you comply with my pronouns, how is that a "misgender"?

We've already established that people who code as extremely cismale can adopt feminine pronouns without misgendering themselves. We've already established that the misgendering in that case consists entirely of not complying with the declared pronouns.

To the degree that gender is a social construct, and to the degree that it is constructed unilaterally, individually, by each individual to suit their own needs and wants, it's impossible to misgender oneself. Even if one toys with other genders for fun, just for an afternoon, it's still not a misgendering of themselves.
It's utter wind and pish is what it is.
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Old Yesterday, 10:02 AM   #105
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My preferred pronouns are (wind, pish). Don't question my gender, and don't get it wrong.
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Old Yesterday, 10:12 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My preferred pronouns are (wind, pish). Don't question my gender, and don't get it wrong.
OTOH I have no preferred pronouns. You can refer to me in whatever manner you wish. Question my gender all you want. I don't care if you are right or wrong.

ETA And it is because this is my attitude that I have trouble understanding why it matters so much to other people. I do understand that it matters to some and I will make a real effort to follow their wishes. I just doubt that I will ever understand why it is so emotionally important.
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Old Yesterday, 10:32 AM   #107
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The kid in question might be a bit of a twat (trying to filter out biases in reporting is tough), but I think I'll be able to remember his preferred pronoun : His Majesty .
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Old Yesterday, 10:47 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
If it were completely normal, it wouldn't be necessary for you to emphasize it. It would already be clear. As theprestige said, you are trying to help to normalize it. That may or may not be a noble endeavor. I haven't entirely made up my mind as to how I see it yet. But if it had already become normal there'd be no need for you to help.
That gets into what we mean by "normal".

There are a few ways it is used and there can be some tension and equivocation between the use of normal to mean "commonplace" and the normative connotations the word can have.

But none of the normal meanings of the word normal require that something be universal or universally understood. And I'd say that it's significant;y stretching meanings to suggest that even a majority need to practice something for it to be allowed to be called "normal".

Architecture is a normal profession. There are about 115k architects in the US that's less than .05% of the population. The vast majority of US residents are not architects and would need significant help to do what architects do.

But if you said "Being an architect is not normal" that would be silly. It may not be particularly common, but the way we use "Not normal" would not be applied to architects or busdrivers or any of the many professions that are out there.
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Old Yesterday, 10:52 AM   #109
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Architects are normal. As such there's no need for anyone to normalize them.

However you want to define normal, and I agree it's not the easiest word to define, if something requires normalizing it's clearly not normal. The process of normalizing something is taking it from the state of not being normal to the state of being normal.

I certainly agree that something doesn't have to be a majority practice in order to be normal.
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Old Yesterday, 10:52 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
OTOH I have no preferred pronouns. You can refer to me in whatever manner you wish. Question my gender all you want. I don't care if you are right or wrong.

ETA And it is because this is my attitude that I have trouble understanding why it matters so much to other people. I do understand that it matters to some and I will make a real effort to follow their wishes. I just doubt that I will ever understand why it is so emotionally important.
As bruto said, a lot of people who don't fit into traditional molds have had some bad experiences. Some have been subject to intense bullying or ostracization, all kinds of family abuse related to their identity. Heavy gender policing.

But even if they haven't had severe expereinces, small things can add up.

I like the comparison of micro aggressions like misgendering to a mosquito bite. If a mosquito bites me, it may be a little annoying, but unless it's carrying malaria, it won't run my day. If every day you go out you get swarmed by mosquitos and you get bitten hundreds of times every day, it becomes a bit harder to shrug off.
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Old Yesterday, 10:57 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Architects are normal. As such there's no need for anyone to normalize them.

However you want to define normal, and I agree it's not the easiest word to define, if something requires normalizing it's clearly not normal. The process of normalizing something is taking it from the state of not being normal to the state of being normal.

I certainly agree that something doesn't have to be a majority practice in order to be normal.
That seems a little circular. I think the term "normalizing" tends to be applied after something has already been considered "not normal".

We can refer to the exact same processes as "Popularizing" or educating.

There are all sorts of things out in the world which are not popular, or that most people aren't educated about, but you probably wouldn't say they're not normal, or that people's efforts to spread popularity, familiarity etc qualify as "normalizing".

"Normalizing" as I've encounted it recently seems to be mostly a politically loaded term used to carry a slippery slope argument against perceived moral decay.
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Old Yesterday, 11:52 AM   #112
dudalb
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I am now seriously thinking about if the invention of the Internet and Social Media might be the most disasterous thing to happen to civilization as we know it.
I am not a luddite;the genie is out of the bottle, but I can't hope noticing that this weirdness really begun with the advent of a "wired: world.
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Old Yesterday, 12:04 PM   #113
Dr. Keith
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am now seriously thinking about if the invention of the Internet and Social Media might be the most disasterous thing to happen to civilization as we know it.
I am not a luddite;the genie is out of the bottle, but I can't hope noticing that this weirdness really begun with the advent of a "wired: world.
You're late. Again.
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He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

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Old Yesterday, 03:01 PM   #114
carlitos
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Saw this posted to a trans support page on Facebook:



Just sayin'.
If she did a cartwheel we wouldn't have to guess her pronouns.
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Old Yesterday, 03:06 PM   #115
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I work in a four man shop, three indians and one chief.

We don't need any silliness in pronouns and would make a joke of it as a policy enacted by anyone.

And then promptly forget about it as we tried to make it to another payday.
What company has time to mess with pandering to confused folks trying to be what they aren't? Seems it just keeps HR busy with something between hiring people.

I like to live in a crude, easily defined world. When what you see is what it is. Not what someone decided to declare it as.
And if I see someone trying to be what they aren't there are words to aptly describe most. Not all are derogatory or evil in a pc world.
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Old Yesterday, 03:06 PM   #116
dudalb
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
If she did a cartwheel we wouldn't have to guess her pronouns.
God, that sounds like something translated into English from a foreign language using a really,really bad automation Translation program.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

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Old Yesterday, 03:19 PM   #117
Cavemonster
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am now seriously thinking about if the invention of the Internet and Social Media might be the most disasterous thing to happen to civilization as we know it.
I am not a luddite;the genie is out of the bottle, but I can't hope noticing that this weirdness really begun with the advent of a "wired: world.
Hot take:

Before the internet a lot of people who didn't fit into traditional molds of gender, sexuality or a whole bunch of things would suffer in silence surrounded entirely by people reinforcing that deviations from the norm are weird and unacceptable. A lot of these people spent their energy trying to will themselves to be "normal" or covering up the wats they weren't

With a communications network allowing people to easily research and connect around the world, uncommon sorts of people find support, information, structures to explore and talk about the parts of themselves they previously had to hide.

The world didn't get weird, the people the world was trying to suffocate just got to emerge from their caves a little. And I've got to say, complaining about that sounds super gross to me.
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The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
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Old Yesterday, 03:34 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Hot take:

Before the internet a lot of people who didn't fit into traditional molds of gender, sexuality or a whole bunch of things would suffer in silence surrounded entirely by people reinforcing that deviations from the norm are weird and unacceptable. A lot of these people spent their energy trying to will themselves to be "normal" or covering up the wats they weren't

With a communications network allowing people to easily research and connect around the world, uncommon sorts of people find support, information, structures to explore and talk about the parts of themselves they previously had to hide.

The world didn't get weird, the people the world was trying to suffocate just got to emerge from their caves a little. And I've got to say, complaining about that sounds super gross to me.
Bloody hell that's a take I never thought of. I agree with this part then it all falls apart here.

Lots to think about.
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Old Yesterday, 03:43 PM   #119
Cavemonster
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Bloody hell that's a take I never thought of. I agree with this part then it all falls apart here.

Lots to think about.
I'm not sure what you mean by "falls apart".

The experience isn't very mysterious. Before the internet, some of the same thing happened with gay people and gay bars back in the mid-late 20th century.

Boys would grow up feeling attracted to other boys. There would be no word for that feeling in the vocabularies their families or schools taught them that wasn't a slur. If they articulated anything about these feelings, they would be mocked by classmates, beaten, disowned etc etc etc. They grew up thinking of themselves as broken with the part of themselves that craved romantic and physical connection as something that needed to be hidden or wrenched back to "normal".

When some of these people found communities of other gay people, suddenly they had places to be themselves, names and norms for their attractions and places to express it.

If you think society didn't try to suppress homosexuality, I don't know what to tell you. The same is true of trans identity etc etc etc.
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The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON

Last edited by Cavemonster; Yesterday at 04:05 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 03:58 PM   #120
p0lka
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Saw this posted to a trans support page on Facebook:

https://i.imgur.com/ofwNNOQ.jpg

Just sayin'.
That's a nice post, they get a thumbs up from me.
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