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Old 10th February 2020, 01:33 AM   #1
angrysoba
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Sinn Fein Wins Irish Election

Okay, maybe not an "outright" win, but they are the party with the most votes.

Now that they have won more than anyone else, they will try to form a coalition, but that could be difficult as Sinn Fein comes with a lot of baggage.

Quote:
Sinn Féin president Mary Lou McDonald has described the Irish general election as "something of a revolution in the ballot box".

Counting is continuing and the first results have come in, with Sinn Féin winning the most first preference votes.

With all first preferences counted, it has 24.5% compared to 22.2% for Fianna Fáil and 20.9% for Fine Gael.

No one party will win enough seats for an outright majority.

Before the election, both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil ruled out forming a government with Sinn Féin, citing its tax policies and IRA past as deterrents.

On Sunday evening taoiseach (Irish PM) and Fine Gael leader Leo Varadkar said it would be "challenging" to form a government.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51432660
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Old 10th February 2020, 01:41 AM   #2
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Not bad for an organisation that was a terrorist group well in my lifetime.
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Old 10th February 2020, 04:04 AM   #3
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Not bad for an organisation that was a terrorist group well in my lifetime.
was?

"They haven't gone away you know!"
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Old 10th February 2020, 04:15 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Okay, maybe not an "outright" win, but they are the party with the most votes.

Now that they have won more than anyone else, they will try to form a coalition, but that could be difficult as Sinn Fein comes with a lot of baggage.



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51432660
It's a 'win' in the same way Hillary Clinton 'won' the US presidency in 2016. It is quite likely that SF won't be the largest party in the Dáil, and they will have to put together a multi party coalition to govern, or get into bed with FF or FG, which won't go down well with their supporters.

Having said that, it's a huge increase in popularity for them, and will make politics here more interesting in the next few years.
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Old 10th February 2020, 08:31 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Not bad for an organisation that was a terrorist group well in my lifetime.
sorta similar to the role Hezbola took on in Lebanon
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Old 10th February 2020, 08:46 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Not bad for an organisation that was a terrorist group well in my lifetime.
Probably not great, either, for the same reason.
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
sorta similar to the role Hezbola took on in Lebanon
But hopefully with less Iranian influence.
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Old 10th February 2020, 09:01 AM   #7
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Being judged by your predecessors and the history of your party are the consequences of not making a break with the past.
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Old 10th February 2020, 09:46 AM   #8
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A united Ireland moves another step closer.
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Old 10th February 2020, 09:54 AM   #9
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One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

What's the perception of the IRA and Sinn Fein among the Irish these days?
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Old 10th February 2020, 09:57 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Not bad for an organisation that was a terrorist group well in my lifetime.
Like the ANC. Nothing fundamentally wrong with a good bombing campaign.
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Old 10th February 2020, 12:01 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
was?

"They haven't gone away you know!"
Irish terrorist attack make big news over here, thanks to a common British heritage of 60% of the population, and there's been very few terrorist actions that I've noticed this century.

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
sorta similar to the role Hezbola took on in Lebanon
I think Hezbollah are still in charge of the rockets, though.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Like the ANC. Nothing fundamentally wrong with a good bombing campaign.
Perfect analogy.
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Old 10th February 2020, 12:22 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Irish terrorist attack make big news over here, thanks to a common British heritage of 60% of the population, and there's been very few terrorist actions that I've noticed this century.







I think Hezbollah are still in charge of the rockets, though.







Perfect analogy.
There's been a lot, police officers and prison officers targeted, bombs, shootings you name it.

Eta I did a Google search "northern ireland terrorism 2010" nice summary paper BBC News - Northern Ireland-terrorism 'increasing threat' to Britain
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-14123147


https://scholar.google.com/scholar?o...ar.google.com/
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Old 10th February 2020, 12:23 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Not bad for an organisation that was a terrorist group well in my lifetime.
Its essentially true of all of the Irish Political parties, if you are over 100 years old anyway.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
A united Ireland moves another step closer.
Not sure how. There's definitely no way the Unionist northerners would join up with a Republic governed by the Sinn Fein.

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Old 10th February 2020, 12:30 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Irish terrorist attack make big news over here, thanks to a common British heritage of 60% of the population, and there's been very few terrorist actions that I've noticed this century.



I think Hezbollah are still in charge of the rockets, though.



Perfect analogy.
True but they did become part of the political process to so there are some similarities.
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Old 10th February 2020, 01:08 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Its essentially true of all of the Irish Political parties, if you are over 100 years old anyway.

Not sure how. There's definitely no way the Unionist northerners would join up with a Republic governed by the Sinn Fein.
All Sinn Fein are doing is promoting support for and waiting for a sufficient majority to vote for a united Ireland.

If enough people vote to unite Ireland, the Unionists would hopefully accept the result.
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Old 10th February 2020, 01:15 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
All Sinn Fein are doing is promoting support for and waiting for a sufficient majority to vote for a united Ireland.

If enough people vote to unite Ireland, the Unionists would hopefully accept the result.
Don't know much Irish History, do you?
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Old 10th February 2020, 01:16 PM   #17
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I've long thought that if the UK wanted to do the most harm it possibly could to Ireland, all they would have to do would be to turn over NI.
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Old 10th February 2020, 01:33 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I've long thought that if the UK wanted to do the most harm it possibly could to Ireland, all they would have to do would be to turn over NI.
Funny, a lot of people in the Republic agree with you...……
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Old 10th February 2020, 02:29 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
It's a 'win' in the same way Hillary Clinton 'won' the US presidency in 2016. It is quite likely that SF won't be the largest party in the Dáil, and they will have to put together a multi party coalition to govern, or get into bed with FF or FG, which won't go down well with their supporters.

Having said that, it's a huge increase in popularity for them, and will make politics here more interesting in the next few years.
Meh, protest voting by people with problem and lack of understanding. It happened before and it'll happen again.

Even if Fianna Fáil is desperate enough they'd need the Greens at least. The arrangement wouldn't last the year.
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Old 10th February 2020, 02:30 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
All Sinn Fein are doing is promoting support for and waiting for a sufficient majority to vote for a united Ireland.

If enough people vote to unite Ireland, the Unionists would hopefully accept the result.
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Old 10th February 2020, 03:09 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post

As I said, someone needs to read some Irish history.....


"Ulster Will fight And Ulster Will Be Right!".
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Old 10th February 2020, 03:10 PM   #22
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IMHO this thread could legitimately be jointed to the Brexit thread. Admittedly I am a USA citizen, but it appeared to me that Brexit and the re-introduction of a border (of some kind, somewhere) between the Republic and Northern Ireland would inevitably stir-up Irish Nationalist feelings and concerns.

Welcome to the Troubles II?
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Old 10th February 2020, 03:16 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
There's been a lot, police officers and prison officers targeted, bombs, shootings you name it.

Eta I did a Google search "northern ireland terrorism 2010" nice summary paper BBC News - Northern Ireland-terrorism 'increasing threat' to Britain
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-14123147


https://scholar.google.com/scholar?o...ar.google.com/
The sources you cite focus on violent dissent groups other than the IRA (the group associated with Sinn Fein) and actually note that the IRA has largely "put away its weapons" (although everyone suspects that they can re-arm easily if they wish). Is there evidence that Sinn Fein is currently associated with any of the active terrorist groups?

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Old 10th February 2020, 03:19 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
was?

"They haven't gone away you know!"
My understanding is that the IRA has mostly been respecting the Good Friday agreement and that the violence that remains is largely propagated by other radical groups. This is not to say that the IRA could not, would not return to even massive violence if they chose/were sufficiently provoked.
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Old 10th February 2020, 03:29 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
IMHO this thread could legitimately be jointed to the Brexit thread. Admittedly I am a USA citizen, but it appeared to me that Brexit and the re-introduction of a border (of some kind, somewhere) between the Republic and Northern Ireland would inevitably stir-up Irish Nationalist feelings and concerns.

Welcome to the Troubles II?
Troubles III ,actually.

Troubles I: the Irish War of Inpendence aka "The Black and Tan war" 1916-1922.
Troubles II The Ulster war 1968-1998.

Before Ulster flared up, "The Troubles" was used as a term for the 1916 to 1922 war .
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Old 10th February 2020, 03:29 PM   #26
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Of course it is very common for terrorist/guerrilla/freedom fighting/insurgent groups that have employed violence to become established, ruling political parties: this has occurred not just in Ireland but in Israel, South Africa, Cuba, France, etc. I think it is impossible to reject them simply on the basis of their violent connections in the past.

However it is also very common for established ruling political parties to stay or become terrorists. I think that is a more practical and moral basis for accepting or rejecting their current legitimacy.
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Old 10th February 2020, 03:36 PM   #27
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Just saw the footage of Sinn Fein supporters singing 'Come out you Blacks and Tans" during a victory celebratation….hoo boy.
Fun song, but being sung under these circumstances not exactly reassuring.
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Old 10th February 2020, 03:57 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Just saw the footage of Sinn Fein supporters singing 'Come out you Blacks and Tans" during a victory celebratation….hoo boy.
Fun song, but being sung under these circumstances not exactly reassuring.
With a newly re-elected TD amongst them no less.
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Old 10th February 2020, 04:43 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
All Sinn Fein are doing is promoting support for and waiting for a sufficient majority to vote for a united Ireland.

If enough people vote to unite Ireland, the Unionists would hopefully accept the result.
You realise that if the Unionists wanted to join Ireland they would have done if 60 years ago?

That's the Problem. The majority of Northern Ireland don't want to be a part of the Republic of Ireland, they want to remain a part of the UK. Most of them see themselves as either British (or its component countries) or as Northern Irish as opposed to being Irish. Their ties are to the UK, not Ireland.
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Old 10th February 2020, 05:03 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
A united Ireland moves another step closer.
As does an independent Scotland. Everyone may soon get what they want from Brexit. The countries in the UK who wanted to stay will and the countries that wanted to leave will. They just won't be the UK anymore.
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Old 10th February 2020, 05:24 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You realise that if the Unionists wanted to join Ireland they would have done if 60 years ago?

That's the Problem. The majority of Northern Ireland don't want to be a part of the Republic of Ireland, they want to remain a part of the UK. Most of them see themselves as either British (or its component countries) or as Northern Irish as opposed to being Irish. Their ties are to the UK, not Ireland.
No to mention the whole "we will not be ruled by the Papists" thing.....

"Home Rule Is Rome Rule".....
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Old 10th February 2020, 05:27 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
As does an independent Scotland. Everyone may soon get what they want from Brexit. The countries in the UK who wanted to stay will and the countries that wanted to leave will. They just won't be the UK anymore.
I think the chances of Scottish Indpenedence are MUCH greater then a reunited Ireland. given a majority of the people in Ulster, rightly or wrongly, don't want to be part of the Republic......
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Old 10th February 2020, 05:29 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
With a newly re-elected TD amongst them no less.
If it would have been "A Nation Once Again", "Rising Of the Moon" or even "Foggy Dew" it would not have been so bad, but the one chose is a particularly nasty one.
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Old 10th February 2020, 05:55 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
There's been a lot, police officers and prison officers targeted, bombs, shootings you name it.
I count five NI-based terror incidents since 2000, and only one since 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Great_Britain

I read your links and see lots of claims and little detail. I'm sure there are still the odd insane Micks who want to bomb everything British, but they're fringe elements and are harming <1% as many people as Islamic terrorists.
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Old 10th February 2020, 06:29 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
My understanding is that the IRA has mostly been respecting the Good Friday agreement and that the violence that remains is largely propagated by other radical groups. This is not to say that the IRA could not, would not return to even massive violence if they chose/were sufficiently provoked.
Sure! “Those guys” are nothing to do with us.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 10th February 2020, 06:41 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
IMHO this thread could legitimately be jointed to the Brexit thread. Admittedly I am a USA citizen, but it appeared to me that Brexit and the re-introduction of a border (of some kind, somewhere) between the Republic and Northern Ireland would inevitably stir-up Irish Nationalist feelings and concerns.

Welcome to the Troubles II?
No! Ireland is an independent country. It is not as if everything they do is based on what happens in the UK. To say that this thread should be part of the Brexit thread is (unintentionally) insulting.

I actually know some people who are attracted to a lot of Sinn Fein’s economic policies. I seem to remember water charges were one of the big ones not long ago.

That said, I also have relatives who like to post “up the Ra!” on Facebook. I think it is fair to say that not all Sinn Fein’s support is from those who support violent struggle, but it is also wrong to say none of it is.

I look at Sinn Fein like I do France’s Front Nationale. They can say they have changed if they want, but I won’t give them the benefit of the doubt.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 10th February 2020, 06:59 PM   #37
Giordano
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Sure! “Those guys” are nothing to do with us.
What is the evidence that the current IRA is linked to these current violent terrorist factions? I am not arguing they are not, nor that they are. Just tell me.
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Old 10th February 2020, 07:07 PM   #38
Robin
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
Would you say that about the people who crashed planes into the World Trade Center towers?
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Old 10th February 2020, 07:11 PM   #39
Giordano
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No! Ireland is an independent country. It is not as if everything they do is based on what happens in the UK. To say that this thread should be part of the Brexit thread is (unintentionally) insulting.

I actually know some people who are attracted to a lot of Sinn Fein’s economic policies. I seem to remember water charges were one of the big ones not long ago.

That said, I also have relatives who like to post “up the Ra!” on Facebook. I think it is fair to say that not all Sinn Fein’s support is from those who support violent struggle, but it is also wrong to say none of it is.

I look at Sinn Fein like I do France’s Front Nationale. They can say they have changed if they want, but I won’t give them the benefit of the doubt.
The Brexit thread clearly includes discussions of the effects of Brexit on other countries. It is obvious that Brexit has serious consequences and effects on the Republic of Ireland and its relationship to the U.K. The border with Northern Ireland has in fact been a major issue within the negotiations for Brexit.

Although there are other issues that led to this historic gain in representation by the Sinn Fein I cannot doubt that a nationalistic pushback in response to Brexit is involved.

My suggestion to move this thread to the Brexit one was in the spirit of making this point, not a serious suggestion as to forum management. But offensive?
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Old 10th February 2020, 07:16 PM   #40
Giordano
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Would you say that about the people who crashed planes into the World Trade Center towers?
I would say that their are people who view the 9/11 terrorists as freedom fighters. I am not among these people. But it is very important to recognize that many such people do exist in the world and to understand why they (mistakingly) believe this. Very important if you wish to reduce the numbers of people who will fly planes into buildings.
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