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Old 14th February 2020, 06:35 PM   #1
cullennz
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"The London property market is worth 1.5 trillion £s"

Just heard this on one of them house selling doc's, but they didn't elaborate on whether that is current houses for sale or value of every house.

Lot of money to be houses on sale but seems to little for all.

Does kind of show why kids can't afford a house these days.
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 14th February 2020, 06:43 PM   #2
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I rather like going on Rightmove and looking at the kinds of places I might buy if I won a staggeringly stupid amount of money on the lottery. There are some astoundingly expensive properties in London. Found a five bedroom apartment for £75 million once. House porn, I call it.

I have no trouble at all believing £1.5 trillion for the whole market - though, is that for all the property on sale, or all the property in total? One wonders how they would appraise the likes of the Tower of London or Buck House.
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Old 14th February 2020, 06:50 PM   #3
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You would think a few places like Buck', the Tower, Westminister, st Paul's etc are basically priceless..
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 14th February 2020, 06:52 PM   #4
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Actually brit museum alone with contents is probably that.

Must be for currently selling, which I call *********.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 14th February 2020, 07:51 PM   #5
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McMansion Hell


Property in the hear of most major cities is ridiculously overpriced. And in the suburbs of some.
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Old 15th February 2020, 04:02 AM   #6
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London property prices are so high because there are not many skyscrapers and so many parks and other non productive pieces of land.
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Old 15th February 2020, 04:06 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
London property prices are so high because there are not many skyscrapers and so many parks and other non productive pieces of land.

If you think parks aren't productive, then I think you're wrong.

I think you mean profitable.

I'm okay with not everything being profitable.
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Old 15th February 2020, 04:58 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
There are some astoundingly expensive properties in London. Found a five bedroom apartment for £75 million once. House porn, I call it.
This is some good house porn for you. It's the latest "Britain's Most Expensive Property" that I've seen - another one will come along soon, no doubt. This one is a 15-bedroom house in Mayfair that is valued at £250 million.

https://www.homesandproperty.co.uk/l...n-a136391.html
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Old 15th February 2020, 05:07 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If you think parks aren't productive, then I think you're wrong.

I think you mean profitable.

I'm okay with not everything being profitable.
I'm with you. Skyscrapers are a good thing. Parks are too.
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Old 15th February 2020, 01:03 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If you think parks aren't productive, then I think you're wrong.

I think you mean profitable.

I'm okay with not everything being profitable.
What I am suggesting here is that London has far more parks that take up more area than other similar cities.
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Old 15th February 2020, 01:39 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
What I am suggesting here is that London has far more parks that take up more area than other similar cities.
I'm reading 33% vs. NY's 27%, while other very major cities exceed that ( Moscow (54%), Singapore (47%), Sydney (46%), Vienna (45.5%), Shenzhen (45%), Rome (39%), LA (35%) to name but a few).

However, it kind of misses the point. London property prices have skyrocketed in the last decade or three, while the space devoted to parks has remained static.

I just did a search on the online real estate website Rightmove for min 2-bed houses in what used to be considered a relatively undesirable area of London (Hackney) with a max price of £500,000 and there were none. For a max of 700k there were 14 in the entire district. Those are mostly older terraced houses, with a few post-war 'modern' places.
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Last edited by GlennB; 15th February 2020 at 02:01 PM. Reason: typo and more stats :)
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Old 15th February 2020, 03:57 PM   #12
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It has been my understanding that the London property market has been strongly influenced by foreign investment - in a bad way. I remember reading on the BBC that surprising proportion of apartments and other residences are vacant - bought up as an investment with no intention for the owner to live in them. Or, for the owner to have an address in London for business reasons, even if the owner does not intend to actually live there.

This was discussed with particular emphasis on Russian investors, stating that the London real estate market represents a sort of alternative investment scheme for Russian criminal oligarchs to launder and store money.
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Old 15th February 2020, 04:29 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I'm reading 33% vs. NY's 27%, while other very major cities exceed that ( Moscow (54%), Singapore (47%), Sydney (46%), Vienna (45.5%), Shenzhen (45%), Rome (39%), LA (35%) to name but a few).

However, it kind of misses the point. London property prices have skyrocketed in the last decade or three, while the space devoted to parks has remained static.

I just did a search on the online real estate website Rightmove for min 2-bed houses in what used to be considered a relatively undesirable area of London (Hackney) with a max price of £500,000 and there were none. For a max of 700k there were 14 in the entire district. Those are mostly older terraced houses, with a few post-war 'modern' places.
Where did you get your %? Will accept as true the rest of your post.



Originally Posted by crescent View Post
It has been my understanding that the London property market has been strongly influenced by foreign investment - in a bad way. I remember reading on the BBC that surprising proportion of apartments and other residences are vacant - bought up as an investment with no intention for the owner to live in them. Or, for the owner to have an address in London for business reasons, even if the owner does not intend to actually live there.

This was discussed with particular emphasis on Russian investors, stating that the London real estate market represents a sort of alternative investment scheme for Russian criminal oligarchs to launder and store money.
This is why the council should have heavy rates. Then the people who have property either pay heaps (OK if you live there, maybe not so if you do not) or sell. There should be no stamp duties.

Just in case words mean different things in other countries, this is what I mean.
Rates - A fee charged to the landowner every year by the council. The amount charged generally depends on the value of the land.

Stamp duty - Amount charged on a transaction. In my case on buying and selling property.
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:35 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Where did you get your %? Will accept as true the rest of your post.











This is why the council should have heavy rates. Then the people who have property either pay heaps (OK if you live there, maybe not so if you do not) or sell. There should be no stamp duties.



Just in case words mean different things in other countries, this is what I mean.

Rates - A fee charged to the landowner every year by the council. The amount charged generally depends on the value of the land.



Stamp duty - Amount charged on a transaction. In my case on buying and selling property.
Presumably a stamp duty is a capital gains tax?

We don't have one, which is why everyone invests in property here rather than stock etc.

Screws the whole property market.

Current govt promised one as their election campaign, but some piddly party that got them into power said no.

We have a sort of tail wagging the dog going on every time something needs to be decided.

All based on politicians greed to stay in govt

MMP. Awesome if you want nothing to happen
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Last edited by cullennz; 15th February 2020 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 15th February 2020, 06:44 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Just heard this on one of them house selling doc's, but they didn't elaborate on whether that is current houses for sale or value of every house.
Value of every house.



https://www.zoopla.co.uk/press/relea...orth-trillion/
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Old 15th February 2020, 07:04 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Cheers!

Surprised it isn't more tbf given some places.

Maybe it is just central London and not some outside suburbs.

Unless I am under estimating the figure of a trillion and talking pants
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Old 15th February 2020, 07:07 PM   #17
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Would be interesting to see another iconic city like NY which is not a huge amount different in size
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 15th February 2020, 07:20 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Presumably a stamp duty is a capital gains tax?

<snip>
No, they are different. A capital gains tax is a tax based on the difference between the selling and the price the property was previously purchased at. Details of this would vary by country.

A stamp duty is based solely on the current selling price.

In Australia we have both, though no capital gains tax on the property the person lives in.
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Old 15th February 2020, 07:43 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
No, they are different. A capital gains tax is a tax based on the difference between the selling and the price the property was previously purchased at. Details of this would vary by country.



A stamp duty is based solely on the current selling price.



In Australia we have both, though no capital gains tax on the property the person lives in.
Cool. Cheers.

We pretty much have no tax on property unless you sell one to your kids or close people for obvious under valued pricing. Ie kind of hidden gifting

(Which without going into details stung me in the ****)
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Old 15th February 2020, 07:46 PM   #20
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Should add we have council rates obviously.

And for some weird reason Auckland has to pay for water. Which most of the country doesn't

Odd folk aucklanders
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Old 15th February 2020, 09:11 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Should add we have council rates obviously.

And for some weird reason Auckland has to pay for water. Which most of the country doesn't

Odd folk aucklanders
Don't be ridiculous - you all pay for it.

It's part of the rates everywhere else. At least in Auckland you pay for what you use and don't subsidise high users.
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Old 15th February 2020, 09:45 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Don't be ridiculous - you all pay for it.



It's part of the rates everywhere else. At least in Auckland you pay for what you use and don't subsidise high users.
Hate to break it to you mate. Really do.

But it is just so they can raise 2 things every year rather than one and it doesn't look as bad as the % is split.

But all good
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Old 15th February 2020, 10:09 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Where did you get your %? Will accept as true the rest of your post.
30 second google.

http://www.worldcitiescultureforum.c...ks-and-gardens
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:12 PM   #24
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Weird thing about the whole Auckland paying for water usage thing is the govt has specifically said no one owns water (to stop treaty claims on ownership).

So they are paying by amount of resource they use to a council that doesn't own what they are selling, while paying rates for the water access infrastructure.

As I said.

Odd lot
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:38 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Skyscrapers are a good thing.
This depends entirely where you live...
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Old 16th February 2020, 12:40 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Hate to break it to you mate. Really do.

But it is just so they can raise 2 things every year rather than one and it doesn't look as bad as the % is split.

But all good
Sorry mate, but as often happens, you have no idea what you're talking about. Take a look at your local council's financial data - they all include water, except for Auckland which has a separate entity for water, and that's led to Auckland having the best water and wastewater systems of any of the major cities.

Have you been to Welly or Chch lately?

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Weird thing about the whole Auckland paying for water usage thing is the govt has specifically said no one owns water (to stop treaty claims on ownership).
Technically, you're paying for the infrastructure and I have to admit, it'd be a real pain in the arse going over to Captain Springs to fill up a mini-tanker every day to collect water, so the cost is fine.

We pay a fraction of international prices.
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Old 16th February 2020, 12:54 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Thanks, saved me a job In fact I added LA and London from that list to a copy/paste of a different list. Lists vary, but sometimes it's hard to define where a 'city' ends. I lived in Paris for some months and it seemed thick with parks, some of them massive, so I was surprised to see it listed at only 9.5%.
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Old 16th February 2020, 12:58 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Where did you get your %?
Googled it and got most of that list, then added a few.

Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Will accept as true the rest of your post.
That's jolly decent of you
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Old 16th February 2020, 01:07 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Thanks, saved me a job In fact I added LA and London from that list to a copy/paste of a different list. Lists vary, but sometimes it's hard to define where a 'city' ends. I lived in Paris for some months and it seemed thick with parks, some of them massive, so I was surprised to see it listed at only 9.5%.
40% of Hong Kong parkland? Only if you count all the islands with few people. Hong Kong and Kowloon? Not a hope in hell.
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Old 16th February 2020, 01:15 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
<snip>

That's jolly decent of you
No, just want to find out what is true and what is not. Not interested in an argument. Or being nasty or rude. Or gaining points.

What you wrote makes sense, so not going to ask for links for evidence. In short the is unneeded.
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Old 16th February 2020, 01:31 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
40% of Hong Kong parkland? Only if you count all the islands with few people. Hong Kong and Kowloon? Not a hope in hell.
Sure, but those other islands are very easy to get to and definitely improve quality of life in HK. When I lived there I worked in Central but I lived on Lamma Island, which is beautiful. Half hour ferry ride to and from the island. I also often went to Lantau to go for hikes. Easy ferry ride of similar length (I forget exactly). And the ferries run every twenty minutes or something.

Even on Hong Kong Island, there's not much open space around central, wan chai, causeway bay, etc. but go to the other side of the island, around Stanley, and there's a lot more. I used to take the bus out there once/week. I think there's a nice hike you can do from Stanley over the peak. Speaking of the peak, the walk up there from midlevels is pretty nice.

I never spent much time in Kowloon.
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Old 16th February 2020, 01:36 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Sure, but those other islands are very easy to get to and definitely improve quality of life in HK. When I lived there I worked in Central but I lived on Lamma Island, which is beautiful. Half hour ferry ride to and from the island. I also often went to Lantau to go for hikes. Easy ferry ride of similar length (I forget exactly). And the ferries run every twenty minutes or something.

Even on Hong Kong Island, there's not much open space around central, wan chai, causeway bay, etc. but go to the other side of the island, around Stanley, and there's a lot more. I used to take the bus out there once/week. I think there's a nice hike you can do from Stanley over the peak. Speaking of the peak, the walk up there from midlevels is pretty nice.

I never spent much time in Kowloon.
Fair enough, but it seems there is not a lot of consistency in how that table was put together.

I’ve been to Lamma Island. Yes, very pretty.
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Old 16th February 2020, 01:41 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Sorry mate, but as often happens, you have no idea what you're talking about. Take a look at your local council's financial data - they all include water, except for Auckland which has a separate entity for water, and that's led to Auckland having the best water and wastewater systems of any of the major cities.



Have you been to Welly or Chch lately?







Technically, you're paying for the infrastructure and I have to admit, it'd be a real pain in the arse going over to Captain Springs to fill up a mini-tanker every day to collect water, so the cost is fine.



We pay a fraction of international prices.
Is that why Auckland leaks so much crap in the ocean and leaves half their beaches unswimmible while simultaneously blaming farmers for pollution?
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Old 16th February 2020, 01:44 AM   #34
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And I a am happy drinking wellington tap water.

Nor as good as back home in Kaiapoi, but does the trick
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 16th February 2020, 02:26 AM   #35
GlennB
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
40% of Hong Kong parkland? Only if you count all the islands with few people. Hong Kong and Kowloon? Not a hope in hell.
I suppose it depends on how we define Hong Kong city, and the word park. Hong Kong island has loads of green space, some of it called 'country park' on maps, but I have no idea whether it could be built on.
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Old Yesterday, 02:17 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
That doesn't seem to give the full picture as all green space should be counted surely? The Greater London Authority estimates total green space in London at 47% (see Map 7.9 pg. 354 of the link below):

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/defa...-base-2016.pdf

As according to the below website the 33% number seems to be ignoring private gardens etc.

Roughly 47% of Greater London is ‘green’; 33% of London is natural habitats within open space according to surveyed habitat information (1) and an additional 14% is estimated to be vegetated private, domestic garden land
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Old Yesterday, 02:46 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
London property prices are so high because there are not many skyscrapers and so many parks and other non productive pieces of land.
And because of the green belt (a collection of restrictions on building outwards)

Not so much because of parks
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Old Yesterday, 02:52 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Presumably a stamp duty is a capital gains tax?
Transfer tax. Also it goes rather high a large percentage of London residences will attract 5% stamp tax. Other fees typically add about 2-3% largest being estate agent fees. Moving is expensive and still the market roars.
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Old Yesterday, 02:58 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
It has been my understanding that the London property market has been strongly influenced by foreign investment - in a bad way. I remember reading on the BBC that surprising proportion of apartments and other residences are vacant - bought up as an investment with no intention for the owner to live in them. Or, for the owner to have an address in London for business reasons, even if the owner does not intend to actually live there.
Buying property and not using it (IE not letting it out either) is wasting money, as is presumably buying it for unspecified "business reasons", it makes little sense that prices would be excessively high due to an unusually high incidence of poor financial decisions.

Quote:
This was discussed with particular emphasis on Russian investors, stating that the London real estate market represents a sort of alternative investment scheme for Russian criminal oligarchs to launder and store money.
I have heard this too but I am sceptical that there are enough corruptly-cashed-up Russians to distort a property market of this size.
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Old Yesterday, 03:17 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Mid View Post
That doesn't seem to give the full picture as all green space should be counted surely? The Greater London Authority estimates total green space in London at 47% (see Map 7.9 pg. 354 of the link below):

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/defa...-base-2016.pdf

As according to the below website the 33% number seems to be ignoring private gardens etc.

Roughly 47% of Greater London is ‘green’; 33% of London is natural habitats within open space according to surveyed habitat information (1) and an additional 14% is estimated to be vegetated private, domestic garden land
Well, yeah, but it's hard to blame the presence of private, and generally pretty small, gardens for the supposed lack of building space. The claim was about parks, not green space in general.
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