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Old 3rd September 2019, 03:56 PM   #81
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Yeah, was being ironic.

What they need is a "New Land" of their own. A place they can call home and build afresh with their own rules. A place where nobody will disturb them or tell them not to do whatever the hell they want. Somewhere they can fish and hunt and shoot to their heart's content with no "greenies" telling them otherwise. This is the place!
I don't like the militant restorationists very much, but I would not wish the Aleutian Islands on anybody.

Just read about the WW2 campaign there sometime. ...
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Old 5th October 2019, 06:53 AM   #82
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WA state Dems put up a website cancelmattshea.com. The summary timeline fills in some back story on Shea's shenanigans.
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Old 7th October 2019, 04:55 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
WA state Dems put up a website cancelmattshea.com. The summary timeline fills in some back story on Shea's shenanigans.
A few years ago, the State GOP would have thrown Shea under the bus by this time.
How times have changed.
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Old 7th October 2019, 05:19 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
WA state Dems put up a website cancelmattshea.com. The summary timeline fills in some back story on Shea's shenanigans.
That website would have been more effective for the intended audience had it not included the S-word at the bottom.

Seattle
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Old 7th October 2019, 07:28 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I don't like the militant restorationists very much, but I would not wish the Aleutian Islands on anybody.

Just read about the WW2 campaign there sometime. ...
I have indeed read up about it. That's what makes it a perfect location for these cross-eyed Nazis' new Thousand Year Reich.
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Old 19th October 2019, 06:02 AM   #86
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Shea interviewed by a John Birch Society moron:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


The first few minutes consists of The Muslims Are Coming paranoia. Then a few minutes in defense of Dominionism replete with poor me, ever the victim. Wraps up with Shea promoting the John Birch Society.

I live near a small town inside the borders of proposed Liberty State. In the local paper events section, there are listings for Farmers Market and other local events. It's surreal to read about the local Liberty State chapter needing a new chairperson, alongside the other mundane listings. Tra la la.
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Old 21st October 2019, 06:04 PM   #87
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John Birch Society just is not the same since the Soviet Union died.
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Old 9th November 2019, 08:11 AM   #88
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Ho hum, more leaked chat sessions between Shea and his whacked out cronies.

Once you're on record advocating that non-Christians be killed and their possessions divvied up, it's hard to top that.
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:35 PM   #89
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Like many racists, Shea and the other Liberty State / American Redoubt people vehemently deny being racists.

There's a youtube personality named James Allsup, an unabashed neo-nazi who carried a torch in Charlottesville. In one of the leaked chat sessions, Shea proposed reaching out to Allsup to enlist him as an ally.
Originally Posted by Shea, aka Verum Bellator
I think you should reach out to him [Allsup] and if he is legit (not racist or a plant) make an ally.
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:44 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Like many racists, Shea and the other Liberty State / American Redoubt people vehemently deny being racists.

There's a youtube personality named James Allsup, an unabashed neo-nazi who carried a torch in Charlottesville. In one of the leaked chat sessions, Shea proposed reaching out to Allsup to enlist him as an ally.
That's a really interesting quote, considering that lot of active white supremacist and separatists (of various ilks) know that the FBI monitors them and tries to involve undercover agents. So they always talk about vetting people in a really similar way that Shea is doing. Besides the bad look of wanting to connect with Allsup, when I see that, I see Shea networking exactly like a Nazi, concern about optics and undercover law enforcement and all. I guess that would fly under the radar for a lot of people, but it's pretty damning.
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:20 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
So I'm curious...

How big is this "movement" this Shea character is a part of?
Much much larger than most people think. You might remember "Ruby Ridge".

That was Christian Identity Movement and after the government murdered Randy Weaver's wife and 14 year old kid, it really caused a huge backlash in the area. Enough of a backlash to cause people like Shea to get elected.

That was quite a while back too, but people do not forget. I just happened to live in Northern Idaho when that all went down, and I am pretty sure people would be shocked at the local's opinions. That incident cause a deep running wound in the community that will probably take generations to heal.

PS Just to stop all the back stabbing that always happens after I make a post like this, NO I am not a Christian Identity Movement follower. I just happened to be in the right place at the right time to witness it.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 02:07 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Much much larger than most people think. You might remember "Ruby Ridge".

That was Christian Identity Movement and after the government murdered Randy Weaver's wife and 14 year old kid, it really caused a huge backlash in the area. Enough of a backlash to cause people like Shea to get elected.

That was quite a while back too, but people do not forget. I just happened to live in Northern Idaho when that all went down, and I am pretty sure people would be shocked at the local's opinions. That incident cause a deep running wound in the community that will probably take generations to heal.

PS Just to stop all the back stabbing that always happens after I make a post like this, NO I am not a Christian Identity Movement follower. I just happened to be in the right place at the right time to witness it.
But you sure sound like an apologist for it.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 02:45 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Much much larger than most people think. You might remember "Ruby Ridge".

That was Christian Identity Movement and after the government murdered Randy Weaver's wife and 14 year old kid, it really caused a huge backlash in the area. Enough of a backlash to cause people like Shea to get elected.
That backlash was amplified by the Waco Siege, and was part of what motivated the Oklahoma City bomber. Both of those events (Ruby Ridge and Waco) were cited often by the militants at the two Bundy Family standoffs (Bunkerville and Malheur). The Bundys are not Christian Identity, but many of their supporters are.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 07:12 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
That backlash was amplified by the Waco Siege, and was part of what motivated the Oklahoma City bomber. Both of those events (Ruby Ridge and Waco) were cited often by the militants at the two Bundy Family standoffs (Bunkerville and Malheur). The Bundys are not Christian Identity, but many of their supporters are.
All true.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 07:21 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
But you sure sound like an apologist for it.
Why? Because I don't think it is proper to send in snipers to murder US citizens without due process?

If that means I am an apologist "for it" (whatever "it is"?), then so be it. Yes I was angry at the government too after an obvious unconstitutional abuse of power like that!

Oh an apparently after it all came out, it was pretty much unanimous in agreement it was an abuse of power by the government. Or did you not follow the the Senate Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Government Information hearings and their findings?

Just because I am not Christian Identity doesn't mean I advocate murdering their families! That's just evil. That sort of violence creates more violence in response.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 12:34 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Why? Because I don't think it is proper to send in snipers to murder US citizens without due process?

If that means I am an apologist "for it" (whatever "it is"?), then so be it. Yes I was angry at the government too after an obvious unconstitutional abuse of power like that!

Oh an apparently after it all came out, it was pretty much unanimous in agreement it was an abuse of power by the government. Or did you not follow the the Senate Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Government Information hearings and their findings?

Just because I am not Christian Identity doesn't mean I advocate murdering their families! That's just evil. That sort of violence creates more violence in response.
Somehow, I find "Christians" packing heat to be a bit disconnected from the whole Jesus Christ thing.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 03:03 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Somehow, I find "Christians" packing heat to be a bit disconnected from the whole Jesus Christ thing.
The Christian Identity movement is heavily influenced by a strong literal reading of the Old testament. They are actually taught "white people" are a lost Israeli "tribe". Very little of the teachings of Jesus made it through to their doctrine.

It is very telling that although Vicki Weaver was indeed at the very least a Christian Identity sympathizer (probably a true believer), her daughter really did not consider herself Christian until very recently. The teachings they received as children not resembling Christianity at all.
Sara Weaver: Remembering Ruby Ridge
Typically Christianity in any form is not a popular topic on a skeptic site. I get that. But you probably can objectively understand that the Christian Identity Movement is quite a bit different than any mainstream Christian teachings?

I went to Idaho simply to help a friend in his logging business since another friend of mine who was helping was not physically fit enough to help with such hard and dangerous work. However, my friend somehow got mixed up with the Christian Identity group up there. It is almost cult like in nature. He somehow got sucked into it. Pretty soon I was running the logging business myself, while my friend went on weeks long "Jubilee" and such in the forest with the rest of that group.

I lost a good friend to the Christian Identity Movement. So I have a very personal reason why I do not like them at all. However, that in no way means I think they need murdered in their homes. The government failed us. They became the very evil that this country was founded to avoid.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 06:16 AM   #98
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It's a shame that Ruby Ridge caused neo nazi scum like Weaver to become a martyr.

@ Red Baron Farms If what happened at Ruby Ridge is to be described as murder, it's important to recognize that Weaver was highly complicit.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 08:09 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It's a shame that Ruby Ridge caused neo nazi scum like Weaver to become a martyr.

@ Red Baron Farms If what happened at Ruby Ridge is to be described as murder, it's important to recognize that Weaver was highly complicit.
That's actually where the government and many others got Weaver wrong. Weaver was not a Neo Nazi. The whole shotgun thing was an attempt to recruit Weaver as an inside plant to the Neo Nazi compound up there, since they had publicly endorsed Weaver when he ran for sheriff. Everyone assumed Weaver was a Neo Nazi or Christian identity because of that and his wife.

Weaver refused the plea bargain. He was not Neo Nazi, nor was he Christian Identity. Everyone who knew Weaver knew this. It was Vicki who had Christian Identity leanings and background. Weaver was more of a live and let live sort that basically didn't care what the NeoNazis did or didn't do, none of his business. What he did hate was the fact property taxes were soaring 200-300-400% or more in a single year all around Northern Idaho as rich people from California moved in and demanded utilities, paved roads, and such, which meant the locals who sometimes only made a few hundred bucks in real cash a year were thrown off their land for not being able to pay their property tax.

So Randy decided to run for sheriff on the platform that he would not serve any sheriff sales for taxes while he was sheriff. Then he printed up some cards that looked like a monopoly game card "Get out of Jail free" vote for him. He actually almost won! But that publicity is what got him targeted for the entrapment for making a shotgun too short. Even before he was charged he was given the choice that the matter would be dropped if he infiltrated the Neo Nazi compound as an informant. He told them to go to hell.

It is true that immediately the Neo Nazis put a call out to go to Idaho through their christian identity network and they as well as skin heads and all sorts of outsiders from that loose network all over the country showed up. But really that was for Vicki. Everyone who knew Randy knew he did not give a damn one way or the other about that stuff. It was his wife.

That's why when we found out it was a sniper round between the eyes of an unarmed Vicki while holding a baby, we knew that wasn't an accident. Later it came out in the hearings that they were given shoot on sight to kill without warning orders. ie.. Special rules of engagement (ROE) were drafted and approved by FBI Headquarters and the Marshal Service for use on Ruby Ridge supposedly giving the troops permission for murder. It is unconstitutional though. The FBI does not have the right to make outlandish rules of engagement like that, nor the ATF.

In fact they had even tried to call in the Idaho National Guard and we watched the trucks deploy up there. Then there was an infamous shouting match between the National Guard commander and whoever it was in charge of the ATF and Marshals that were camped out there. (there may have even been punches thrown) The next day the National Guard packed up and turned around heading back. They had refused to be part of that, saying it was an illegal operation.

I personally did not hear the shouting match. I was too busy working trying to at least break even in the logging since my friend went AWOL and never paid anyone! I had no time for protesting, and did not like those guys anyway. But the rumors from that shouting match were actually kinda crazy sounding. Rumor was it was about a 50/50 which side the National Guard decided to fight on.... That's probably unfounded though. You know how rumors can be. All I can say with certainty is the National Guard turned right around and absolutely refused to participate once they found out the ROE.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 08:53 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
<snip for brevity>
Thanks for sharing your perspective. It doesn't synch with the facts though, unless we're going to allow flimsy excuses like she wore the pants in the family.

He attended Aryan events. He attended services at an unabashed neo nazi church. He and his family members wore swastikas. "Death to Jews" was posted on the wall. A swastika was drawn on MLK birthday on the calendar. His own attorney essentially called him a neo nazi.

There's a thread about this.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 09:14 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Thanks for sharing your perspective. It doesn't synch with the facts though, unless we're going to allow flimsy excuses like she wore the pants in the family.

He attended Aryan events. He attended services at an unabashed neo nazi church. He and his family members wore swastikas. "Death to Jews" was posted on the wall. A swastika was drawn on MLK birthday on the calendar. His own attorney essentially called him a neo nazi.

There's a thread about this.
Well I can assure you that Randy did not give a damn about it, and didn't particularly even like them. And no Vicki did not wear the pants. She was only traditional clothing, much like you see Amish wearing. You will never see her wearing pants. But she did try to get her husband to join up with them at church. He was not impressed though and everyone who knew him knew it.
Quote:
"Religion's all a bunch of crap."-Randy Weaver
Randy was neither a NAZI nor Christian Identity, he was a self proclaimed "separatist". ie His live and let live idea. I don't get in your business and you don't get in mine. Basically a sort of a variation on the idea of the South's segregation laws, except he did not even see the point of laws about it. If someone wanted to integrate, that was on them, none of his business. If someone wanted to isolate, that was also on them, none of his business. He was isolationist, but saw no reason for forcing that belief on others. He literally did not give a damn. Just leave him and his neighbors alone and they would leave everyone else alone.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 10:05 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Well I can assure you that Randy did not give a damn about it, and didn't particularly even like them. And no Vicki did not wear the pants. She was only traditional clothing, much like you see Amish wearing. You will never see her wearing pants. But she did try to get her husband to join up with them at church. He was not impressed though and everyone who knew him knew it.

Randy was neither a NAZI nor Christian Identity, he was a self proclaimed "separatist". ie His live and let live idea. I don't get in your business and you don't get in mine. Basically a sort of a variation on the idea of the South's segregation laws, except he did not even see the point of laws about it. If someone wanted to integrate, that was on them, none of his business. If someone wanted to isolate, that was also on them, none of his business. He was isolationist, but saw no reason for forcing that belief on others. He literally did not give a damn. Just leave him and his neighbors alone and they would leave everyone else alone.
Unfortunately, societies cannot function as such if everyone can call their own shots, being disconnected from the larger community. The FoTL movement exemplifies this anarchic attitude, where the right to society's benefits are demanded without the responsibility to contribute.
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Old 24th November 2019, 07:35 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Well I can assure you that Randy did not give a damn about it, and didn't particularly even like them.
Nothing personal, but I assign little to no weight to naked assurances from anonymous characters on the internet.

Quote:
And no Vicki did not wear the pants. She was only traditional clothing, much like you see Amish wearing. You will never see her wearing pants.
Wow that's an impressive degree of literalness. Please click the link in my sig; you might enjoy it. All hail Hymie the Robot!

Quote:
Randy was neither a NAZI nor Christian Identity, he was a self proclaimed "separatist"...
So when he wore nazi paraphernalia, and when he attended a neo nazi church, and when he attended an annual event at Aryan Nations several years running, and when he provided illegally sawed off weapons to a presumed neo-nazi (funny how you minimize that), and when "Death to Jews" was posted on the wall, and when his kids were allowed to harass neighbors with nazi displays ... ignore all that! Someone on the internet claims to know better.

Highly unimpressive.
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Old 24th November 2019, 08:06 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Nothing personal, but I assign little to no weight to naked assurances from anonymous characters on the internet.
Fair enough on a skeptic site.

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Wow that's an impressive level of literalness. Please click the link in my sig; you might enjoy it. All hail Hymie the Robot!
Was hoping you might enjoy that. But more importantly is the "why". And it turns out the why is because she was Christian Identity and must follow all the old testament laws literally. This is why I found it hard to believe when someone claimed she wasn't. She sure played the part. One of those laws was that the man must also be the boss, which it the meaning of "wear the pants". Vicki took that literally and figuratively, as they all did almost all the Old Testament.

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
So when he wore nazi paraphernalia, and when he attended a neo nazi church, and when he attended an annual event at Aryan Nations several years running, and when he provided illegally sawed off weapons to a presumed neo-nazi (funny how you minimize that), and when "Death to Jews" was posted on the wall, and when his kids were allowed to harass neighbors with nazi displays ... ignore all that! Someone on the internet claims to know better.
Not hard to understand. When you have a block party in the suburbs with your neighbors, and most are Right Wing Christian moral majority card carrying Republicans, does that make you one? Or did you just attend the local event held by your neighbors? Same there. Except the demographics of that area are very very different. The majority were actually some sort of disenfranchised group that was socially unacceptable somewhere else in society, whether it be Native American Indians, or Neo Nazis, or bitter Nam Vets, or Christian Identity, or Branch Davidians and assorted other similar sects of polygamous religions, etc etc etc.... and all any of them wanted was to escape mainstream society and be left alone. To go "off grid". Surprisingly it all worked too, until people from California started moving in and disrupting the lose societal network they had up there with all sorts of rules those people had tried to move away from. That's why a large number of them were up there.

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Highly unimpressive.
That a guy who had ambitions to run for office would actually attend the community events of his neighbors was unusual? I am not seeing it. If the event was held in say Chicago, and those were Illinois NAZI's then yes. I would buy your conclusions. But it is completely different when whack jobs like that actually ARE the community.
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Old 24th November 2019, 01:26 PM   #105
Lurch
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Just as gun-totin' is hardly congruent with Christ's teachings, so too is adherence to the Old Testament. To me, a Christian comports the self in accordance with the New Testament (if one is to choose a dividing line in the Good Book.)

These Christian Identity folk seem to be afflicted with a schizophrenic doctrine. Praising Jesus from behind the butt of a rifle. They seem nearer to Jews in their actions, while paying lip service to their avowed Savior, Jesus.I doubt they fully comprehend Christ's message. Or at least they pick and choose to convenience.
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Old 24th November 2019, 01:52 PM   #106
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Just as gun-totin' is hardly congruent with Christ's teachings, so too is adherence to the Old Testament. To me, a Christian comports the self in accordance with the New Testament (if one is to choose a dividing line in the Good Book.)

These Christian Identity folk seem to be afflicted with a schizophrenic doctrine. Praising Jesus from behind the butt of a rifle. They seem nearer to Jews in their actions, while paying lip service to their avowed Savior, Jesus.I doubt they fully comprehend Christ's message. Or at least they pick and choose to convenience.
That hardly makes them unique when it comes to any religion.
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Old 24th November 2019, 03:09 PM   #107
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These are people of the land . . .
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I AGREE

Blazing Saddles

They just want to be left alone and protect their god-given rights . . . to discriminate against brown people, homos, wimmins, green nazis, etc. Yeah, it works out real well . . . for them.
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