ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags defamation cases , lawsuits , media criticism , Nathan Phillips , Nick Sandmann , protest incidents , racism charges

Reply
Old 7th September 2019, 05:39 PM   #2361
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 23,803
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Yes, what you just said is deeply fallacious.

I don’t think Trump is a white supremacist. My reasoning does not fall anywhere near along the lines you’ve laughably outlined above. Trump is a 73 year old product of the culture and the time period he was raised in. You can say he’s racist and I won’t argue with you. But to say he’s a white supremacist is to say that he’s espoused a certain world-view that there’s no evidence that he actually has.



I’m sure this is true but not universally. I see no need to tar all white people with the same brush.
Trump's "world-view" is me, me, me, me. That's as far as it goes, although it doesn't stop him from hating brown people.
Meanwhile, I'm a 71 year old product of the culture and don't agree with him on anything.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th September 2019, 03:40 AM   #2362
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Could you provide evidence for your claim "Besides, I was always told by liberals here that patriotism is bad. "?
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I have time for two examples.

One...




Two...not so bad...




If you require more let me know, these are both from the same thread. I'm really not inclined to look any harder because this will fall on deaf ears anyways and it really isn't that important to me.

But there ya go - evidence..
As "evidence" goes, you'd be laughed out of court. Both quotes are describing a type, or brand if you will, of "patriotism". Neither is blatantly claiming that patriotism is bad. The latter "evidence" actually specifically mentions "excessive patriotism".

If you think a little social drinking is okay, it's not a contradiction to rail against excessive drinking which can be harmful and even destructive. Excessive patriotism and various forms of flag-waving, including the infamous "My Country, Right or Wrong" are what is being condemned or warned about.

Far better you'd have admitted that you were hyperbolizing or straw-manning, 'cuz this doesn't really stack up as evidence. It's what you wish that we were saying. It's the kind of straw man lie that Trump and his minions put out every day. "The Dems want open borders".. "They're coming for mah gunz"... I guess we can add "Liberals hate patriotism". Well done.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th September 2019, 03:59 AM   #2363
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 88,420
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I have time for two examples.



One...









Two...not so bad...









If you require more let me know, these are both from the same thread. I'm really not inclined to look any harder because this will fall on deaf ears anyways and it really isn't that important to me.



But there ya go - evidence..
But not evidence of what you claimed....
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th September 2019, 04:11 PM   #2364
Stacyhs
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 9,824
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
As "evidence" goes, you'd be laughed out of court. Both quotes are describing a type, or brand if you will, of "patriotism". Neither is blatantly claiming that patriotism is bad. The latter "evidence" actually specifically mentions "excessive patriotism".

If you think a little social drinking is okay, it's not a contradiction to rail against excessive drinking which can be harmful and even destructive. Excessive patriotism and various forms of flag-waving, including the infamous "My Country, Right or Wrong" are what is being condemned or warned about.

Far better you'd have admitted that you were hyperbolizing or straw-manning, 'cuz this doesn't really stack up as evidence. It's what you wish that we were saying. It's the kind of straw man lie that Trump and his minions put out every day. "The Dems want open borders".. "They're coming for mah gunz"... I guess we can add "Liberals hate patriotism". Well done.
For far too many, it's "My Country Is Always Right, Never Wrong". The other 'patriotism' that I abhor is the "Love It or Leave It" type. As if we have to love and support everything it does no matter what or get out.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2019, 11:47 AM   #2365
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 14,029
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
For far too many, it's "My Country Is Always Right, Never Wrong". The other 'patriotism' that I abhor is the "Love It or Leave It" type. As if we have to love and support everything it does no matter what or get out.
Especially considering the country was set up with specific and explicit methods to change it if you don't Love It, and can get enough people behind you.
__________________
History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2019, 01:31 PM   #2366
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,573
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Trump's "world-view" is me, me, me, me. That's as far as it goes, although it doesn't stop him from hating brown people.
Meanwhile, I'm a 71 year old product of the culture and don't agree with him on anything.
All he needs is wings and he could play a seagull in "Finding Nemo"
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2019, 01:59 PM   #2367
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,914
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But not evidence of what you claimed....

I did exactly as you asked...

Quote:
Could you provide evidence for your claim "Besides, I was always told by liberals here that patriotism is bad. "?

I answered your question. I didn't expect you and foolmewunz to suddenly agree with me and it really isn't that important to me that you do. If I dig up more will you suddenly agree? No, you won't.
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2019, 03:55 PM   #2368
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 13,186
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I did exactly as you asked...




I answered your question. I didn't expect you and foolmewunz to suddenly agree with me and it really isn't that important to me that you do. If I dig up more will you suddenly agree? No, you won't.
The quotes you supplied weren't actually evidence of the claim you made.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2019, 12:54 PM   #2369
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,853
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
So the same judge is presiding over a case where Sandmann is suing NBC. Apparently NBC just asked to have the case thrown out, so I'm assuming it's going to end the same way.
NBC did get a dismissal just like WP and CNN, as expected. But that wasn't the end. The judge subsequently reinstated the case on a limited basis (meaning some of the complaints remain dismissed but some of them can proceed). That reinstatement happened for WP and CNN previously, and has now happened for NBC as well. So the case is back on.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...-nbcuniversal/

Note that the judge has reversed his own decision, he hasn't been overruled on appeal.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2019, 01:48 PM   #2370
Joe Random
Master Poster
 
Joe Random's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,152
There has to be more detail to the law in question than the tiny snipped quoted here :

Quote:
Under Kentucky law, a communication is considered defamatory if it brings a person into “public hatred, contempt or ridicule,” or causes the person to be “shunned or avoided,” according to the ruling.

That sounds seriously over-reaching if there aren't some sort of limitations in place. Not saying for this case specifically (FTR I'm coming down on the side of MagaHatBoy, just probably not to the dollar amount they're after). Generally speaking it sounds like Twitter would be a rich field for litigation in that state.
Joe Random is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2019, 11:44 PM   #2371
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,853
Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
There has to be more detail to the law in question than the tiny snipped quoted here :




That sounds seriously over-reaching if there aren't some sort of limitations in place. Not saying for this case specifically (FTR I'm coming down on the side of MagaHatBoy, just probably not to the dollar amount they're after). Generally speaking it sounds like Twitter would be a rich field for litigation in that state.
Yes, there’s more to it. Most importantly, the communication must be false in order to qualify as defamation.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 04:59 AM   #2372
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,526
a discussion from last January

Link to an older discussion of libel law and the Covington case by a professor of law, Eugene Volokh.

"If the poster refuses to take down the post even then, can the plaintiff argue that keeping the post up is negligent, or does it matter only whether the defendant was negligent when he initially posted?

Surprisingly, that is not a well-settled question; the cases are split, and there are good arguments on both sides."

Link to a recent post critical of one of the suits. "Basically, it made them look like jerks. And maybe that portrayal was unfair based on incomplete footage. But these lawsuits are a different story; they look like the reactions of children trying to punish those who have called out their bad behavior."

As my comments in this thread make clear, I think that the author (also a professor of law) is wrong about the confrontation. She also failed to discuss the poor quality of the early journalism covering the incident. One presumes her legal views are better founded.
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 25th November 2019 at 05:36 AM.
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:04 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.