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Tags donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

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Old 22nd November 2019, 03:23 PM   #2961
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Is there a point to this questioning of why the Yale group did not do a certain thing at a certain time? It adds nothing to your position that they should not have done what they did when they actually did it.
It's a distraction.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 03:24 PM   #2962
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Another straw man.

I'd heard of Trump. That doesn't mean I knew the details of his pathologic narcissism until he was running for POTUS.
Which is to say, you knew about it well before the actual election.

Quote:
They might have had an idea something was off with the guy but that doesn't mean they saw the full extent of it before the election.
You just said that you knew the details of his pathologic narcissism while he was running for POTUS. Before the election.

Are you saying Dr Lee didn't see anything worth warning voters about, until after he got elected? Because it sure sounds like you figured it out pretty easily, and so did millions of other voters.

Quote:
More importantly, no one can draw any conclusions from the answer to, why didn't they say something sooner?
Actually, I think we could certainly draw conclusions from the answer to that question. That kind of being the whole point of answering a question, after all.

More importantly, I think we can draw conclusions from the fact that they didn't say something before the election, when it would have had much greater potential impact. That would have been the ideal, right? If enough Americans had understood the danger ahead of time, and he'd not gotten elected?
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Old 22nd November 2019, 03:25 PM   #2963
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's a distraction.
OLOL.

A distraction from what? What important point on this subject hasn't already been chewed over, down to the bone and gristle, already?
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Old 22nd November 2019, 03:27 PM   #2964
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Which is to say, you knew about it well before the actual election.
You got any of my pre-election posts you think contradicts this distraction?

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Are you saying Dr Lee didn't see anything worth warning voters about, until after he got elected? Because it sure sounds like you figured it out pretty easily, and so did millions of other voters.
I am not Dr Lee. How is what I did significant?
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Old 22nd November 2019, 03:35 PM   #2965
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You got any of my pre-election posts you think contradicts this distraction?
On the contrary: I take it for granted that you figured out everything you needed to figure out about Trump as a candidate, well before the election.

Quote:
I am not Dr Lee. How is what I did significant?
I find it a useful point of comparison. You determined that Trump would have been dangerous if elected, before the election. Dr Lee either did not figure that out (in which case, why are we privileging her judgement?), or did figure it out but chose to shirk her Duty to Warn until after the election (in which case, what the hell, Dr Lee?)

Why were you able to accomplish before the election something that apparently took Dr Lee until after the election?

Do you think she just wasn't paying attention? To the election campaign between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump?
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Old 22nd November 2019, 07:40 PM   #2966
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The election over, one can refer to the "duty to warn," but imagine that the Yale group had expounded on Trump's bad character before the election and that the effect had been to influence the election. Would the defenders of Trump consider that appropriate and not squawk about it?

I think it's a double bind. No adverse opinion on Trump could ever be appropriate to those who defend him.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 12:30 AM   #2967
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The election over, one can refer to the "duty to warn," but imagine that the Yale group had expounded on Trump's bad character before the election and that the effect had been to influence the election. Would the defenders of Trump consider that appropriate and not squawk about it?



I think it's a double bind. No adverse opinion on Trump could ever be appropriate to those who defend him.
It shouldn’t matter what Trump defenders think when the fate of the US and the world is at stake. If Trump is truly dangerous as President and if the Yale Group thinks they have an ethical duty to warn the public, then it makes no sense to wait and see if he actually gets elected. It’s too late then.

The problem is that there is no real duty to warn when it comes to warning about vague threats that may or may not be posed by people the shrinks have never met.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 02:37 AM   #2968
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The only thing I would have to say about that is that at that point he obviously can't carry out his duties and the VP/Cabinet should initiate 25th removal, ASAP. Whatever is wrong with him, specifically, is irrelevant.

They should. They wouldn't.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 07:53 AM   #2969
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It shouldn’t matter what Trump defenders think when the fate of the US and the world is at stake. If Trump is truly dangerous as President and if the Yale Group thinks they have an ethical duty to warn the public, then it makes no sense to wait and see if he actually gets elected.
Do we know that they actually waited? Was the Yale group a thing in 2015, members organized, typewriters and videotapes at the ready, itching to release some damning book at a moment's notice? Or was it more like various psychiatrists worrying to their friends, eventually realizing that a lot of other psychiatrists had the same worries, gradually organizing, coordinating, and eventually able to write and publish a book?
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Old 23rd November 2019, 08:21 AM   #2970
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Do we know that they actually waited? Was the Yale group a thing in 2015, members organized, typewriters and videotapes at the ready, itching to release some damning book at a moment's notice? Or was it more like various psychiatrists worrying to their friends, eventually realizing that a lot of other psychiatrists had the same worries, gradually organizing, coordinating, and eventually able to write and publish a book?

Don't buy the 'Why didn't you say before' distraction.

Imagine the reaction from our resident defenders of Trump's sanity if anyone with a medical qualification had opined about Trump's state of mental health while campaigning was happening. There would have been wailing and gnashing of teeth and demands for people to be struck off.

The loony is in the Oval office now (metaphorically), and he's ******* mental. That's the topic and the danger to the USA. All this 'Waaah, you didn't say before' is just a smokescreen to hide the increasingly desperate defences of Donald's sanity while the world watches him dribble slowly into oblivion, taking the USA with him.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 09:24 AM   #2971
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
They should. They wouldn't.
Exactly. That's the thing. I don't come to this thread very often any more because, in the end, he will not be impeached because of his mental illness. We can keep talking about the obvious, but again, I don't believe anything will come of it.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 02:01 PM   #2972
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Don't buy the 'Why didn't you say before' distraction.



Imagine the reaction from our resident defenders of Trump's sanity if anyone with a medical qualification had opined about Trump's state of mental health while campaigning was happening. There would have been wailing and gnashing of teeth and demands for people to be struck off.



The loony is in the Oval office now (metaphorically), and he's ******* mental. That's the topic and the danger to the USA. All this 'Waaah, you didn't say before' is just a smokescreen to hide the increasingly desperate defences of Donald's sanity while the world watches him dribble slowly into oblivion, taking the USA with him.


Ok, but you can’t easily remove the loony once they win the Oval. The time to warn is before that happens. Therefore, my position is that if they were going say “to hell with ethics,” it would have been better before the election. We are supposedly in danger now and we were not in danger before.

It shouldn’t matter what Trump defenders would have thought if there truly exists an existential threat to the US and the world.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 02:02 PM   #2973
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Exactly. That's the thing. I don't come to this thread very often any more because, in the end, he will not be impeached because of his mental illness. We can keep talking about the obvious, but again, I don't believe anything will come of it.


Right. Which makes the warnings too little, too late. Which means that these professionals are breaching ethics for no benefit.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 03:44 PM   #2974
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Still clinging to this squirrel? If the Yale group were sincere they would have published before Trump was elected and they didn't, therefore they are not sincere?

Nice distraction but in no way is that evidence of the conclusion being drawn.

Unless of course you have some research to back that up, xjx.

If you actually looked you might find the opposite. There is some related work on triggers. When a patient has a cough, what is the trigger to go see the doctor?

When a patient has a headache, what is the trigger to go see the doctor?

When a patient has a sore throat and a cough, what is the trigger to go see the doctor?

If a person has an upper respiratory infection but waited days to seek care that means it was not serious before they decided to be seen? Notice the faulty logic there? If you believe severity is the only variable, you'd be wrong.

Research shows there are many triggers and severity is not the only one, nor is it a certain one. Some people don't see a doctor despite having serious symptoms. But missing too many days of work might trigger them to be seen.

Someone might have a serious cough but not see a provider until one of their co-workers says, "don't you think you should have that looked at?

That's how triggers work. Your squirrel is a fail.
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Old 26th November 2019, 04:21 AM   #2975
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Ok, but you can’t easily remove the loony once they win the Oval. The time to warn is before that happens. Therefore, my position is that if they were going say “to hell with ethics,” it would have been better before the election. We are supposedly in danger now and we were not in danger before.

It shouldn’t matter what Trump defenders would have thought if there truly exists an existential threat to the US and the world.


Of course it should. If they thought, quite reasonably at the time, that their exhortations would actually increase the chances of a Trump presidency (which isn't an unreasonable assumption, given the all but certain response of the GOP ("Look at these traitors, don't they know it's campaign time? See how underhand the other side are, vote Trump") then it's not unreasonable that they withhold their opinion.

None of it matters, of course, this is still a distraction. Here's the important bit:

The man in the Oval office has, very charitably, a tentative grip on reality.
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Old 26th November 2019, 07:37 AM   #2976
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Of course it should. If they thought, quite reasonably at the time, that their exhortations would actually increase the chances of a Trump presidency (which isn't an unreasonable assumption, given the all but certain response of the GOP ("Look at these traitors, don't they know it's campaign time? See how underhand the other side are, vote Trump") then it's not unreasonable that they withhold their opinion.

None of it matters, of course, this is still a distraction. Here's the important bit:

The man in the Oval office has, very charitably, a tentative grip on reality.

I don’t see how it’s a distraction. The simple fact is that he’s there now and no matter how many times these shrinks breach ethics, he will still be there.
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:29 PM   #2977
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I don’t see how it’s a distraction. The simple fact is that he’s there now and no matter how many times these shrinks breach ethics, he will still be there.

That is quite obviously not true: He's not going to be there forever, you know, and I appreciate the role these psychiatrists may play (however small or large it may be) in fomenting broader support for removing Trump from office, whether by impeachment, election, or what have you.
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Old 28th November 2019, 01:03 AM   #2978
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I don’t see how it’s a distraction. The simple fact is that he’s there now and no matter how many times these shrinks breach ethics, he will still be there.
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Old 28th November 2019, 02:58 AM   #2979
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I don’t see how it’s a distraction.
Because it's done. Whatever you think should have happened doesn't matter. What's actually happened is more worth discussing.

You can go on and on about 'why didn't they say before, they must be politically motivated' etc. but the bottom line is he isn't all there. Here and now, the POTUS is noticeably a bit mental. He's a GOP POTUs, they have form for this ****.

Quote:
The simple fact is that he’s there now and no matter how many times these shrinks breach ethics, he will still be there.
Yup. He could be painting the walls of Air Force 1 with his own excrement and he' still be there. I'd say that represents a bit of a crisis. YMMV, of course.
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Old 28th November 2019, 01:58 PM   #2980
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm utterly convinced that when Donald is dancing around the Oval office listening to pop goes Wagner, naked but for his underpants on his head and pencils up his nose while tweeting about his recent, extremely successful diplomatic trip to Narnia, there would still be folk here stating there's no reasonable way to know he's gone totally dinglebat and that 'this is fine'.
I agree. And I suppose that wouldn’t bother me too much if they didn’t also scornfully exclaim, “You keep saying he is too crazy to do the job; well, Hillary lost and you Never-Trumpers need to get over it.”
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Old 28th November 2019, 02:47 PM   #2981
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Because it's done. Whatever you think should have happened doesn't matter. What's actually happened is more worth discussing.

You can go on and on about 'why didn't they say before, they must be politically motivated' etc. but the bottom line is he isn't all there.
There are two bottom lines. One is the mental state of the president. This, we all agree, is substantively discernible by the lay voter, who is able to make an informed voting decision without any need for input from the psychiatric profession. Likewise the Cabinet, and Congress, don't need the Yale group to tell them what's up or what to do about it.

The other bottom line is the decision of the Yale group to insert the psychiatric profession into this anyway. Discussing what they did, and why, and whether it should have been done, is very much a valid activity. Think of it as a case study. Or modern history.

Both discussions are valid. Both are on topic for this thread.
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Old 28th November 2019, 02:54 PM   #2982
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There are two bottom lines. One is the mental state of the president. This, we all agree, is substantively discernible by the lay voter, who is able to make an informed voting decision without any need for input from the psychiatric profession. Likewise the Cabinet, and Congress, don't need the Yale group to tell them what's up or what to do about it.

The other bottom line is the decision of the Yale group to insert the psychiatric profession into this anyway. Discussing what they did, and why, and whether it should have been done, is very much a valid activity. Think of it as a case study. Or modern history.

Both discussions are valid. Both are on topic for this thread.
There is also the question about whether Trump's brand of mental illness is more dangerous than the average layperson might suspect. That is something that professionals might be able to flag up as a potential issue, worthy of a proper examination.
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Old 28th November 2019, 02:57 PM   #2983
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
There is also the question about whether Trump's brand of mental illness is more dangerous than the average layperson might suspect. That is something that professionals might be able to flag up as a potential issue, worthy of a proper examination.
Exactly. And as evidence I give you my claims, "he can't help himself" which bare out again and again all the while the news media still acts like there are actually options Trump might take.
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Old 28th November 2019, 03:33 PM   #2984
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
There is also the question about whether Trump's brand of mental illness is more dangerous than the average layperson might suspect. That is something that professionals might be able to flag up as a potential issue, worthy of a proper examination.
Yep. Which brings me back to: What has the Yale group told you about the degree of danger, that you hadn't figured out for yourself already?
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Old 28th November 2019, 03:34 PM   #2985
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Exactly. And as evidence I give you my claims, "he can't help himself" which bare out again and again all the while the news media still acts like there are actually options Trump might take.
Bear out*
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Old 28th November 2019, 04:14 PM   #2986
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Bear out*
They both work.

Bare out
Quote:
Synonyms for bare out
authenticate
confirm
corroborate

endorse
justify
prove
substantiate
support
uphold
validate
verify
vindicate
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Old 28th November 2019, 04:23 PM   #2987
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yep. Which brings me back to: What has the Yale group told you about the degree of danger, that you hadn't figured out for yourself already?

That professional psychiatrists consider his mental illness dangerous enough to be worth alarming the public about despite said alarm being a potential breach of ethics.
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Old 28th November 2019, 04:50 PM   #2988
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yep. Which brings me back to: What has the Yale group told you about the degree of danger, that you hadn't figured out for yourself already?
It's just a *teeny* bit possible that the opinion of a trained professional is a worthwhile point to confirm or counter that of the lay person.

I might be confident that my heartburn is just that, and while a doctor may arrive at the same conclusion, he could alternatively recognize a problem with blood flow to the heart.

Your assertion here would seem to be an expression of the Right's current rejection of expertise. Joe six-pack doesn't need the pencil-necked egg-heads to tell him what's what; amirite?
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Old 29th November 2019, 07:44 AM   #2989
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There are two bottom lines. One is the mental state of the president. This, we all agree, is substantively discernible by the lay voter, who is able to make an informed voting decision without any need for input from the psychiatric profession. Likewise the Cabinet, and Congress, don't need the Yale group to tell them what's up or what to do about it.

The other bottom line is the decision of the Yale group to insert the psychiatric profession into this anyway. Discussing what they did, and why, and whether it should have been done, is very much a valid activity. Think of it as a case study. Or modern history.

Both discussions are valid. Both are on topic for this thread.

I don't apply equal weight to these aspects.

One is a problem of medical integrity - An issue, to be sure, but not quite as concerning as the 'leader of the free world' being a bona fide nutter.
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Old 29th November 2019, 08:59 AM   #2990
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There are two bottom lines. One is the mental state of the president. This, we all agree, is substantively discernible by the lay voter, who is able to make an informed voting decision without any need for input from the psychiatric profession.

I am not so sure about the ability of US voters to discern between narcissists and non-narcissists. Narcissism seems to have become the new normal in the USA, and I am often appalled by the way that obviously narcissistic characters in American movies are portrayed as heroic*. It seems as if it is not despicable to be a 100% ******* in the USA. The only thing that really is despicable is being a loser - in movies as well as in real life. (No wonder it's one of Trump's favourite put downs of people who oppose him.)

I mean, look at Trump rallies: How does he present himself? As a reliable, trustworthy guy, one you can depend on? Or as somebody who is good at humiliating his opponents (and at the same time his fans if they seriously listened to what he's saying), as somebody who can defeat them? (Same thing in that universe!)
As long as Trump can make it acceptable to despise the disabled, liberals, LGBTQ+ people, blacks, latinos and other generally disadvantaged minorities, Trump will be admired (and if at all possible reelected) by the segment of Americans who can't see through the posturing of this deeply insecure and awful human being.
That is not what I would call an informed voting decision, but it's also not one that will be swayed in the slightest way by the Yale group.

* I don't know if this is an entirely new thing, but I remember a time when narcissists in movies used to be the bad guys, the villains. Remember Gregory Anton (Charles Boyer) in Gaslight, for instance. Post WW2, however, it seems as if even movies satirizing fascism are misunderstood by 50% of the audience. The foreigner Verhoeven's movie Starship Troopers is a case in point.
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I AGREE

I'm appalled by the number of grown ups who don't notice that it's satire.
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Old 29th November 2019, 09:26 AM   #2991
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
* I don't know if this is an entirely new thing, but I remember a time when narcissists in movies used to be the bad guys, the villains. Remember Gregory Anton (Charles Boyer) in Gaslight, for instance. Post WW2, however, it seems as if even movies satirizing fascism are misunderstood by 50% of the audience.
I might be wrong, but I figure this is part of the further shift from a communal to an individual worldview.
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Old 29th November 2019, 11:21 AM   #2992
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How so? I'm not sure what you mean.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th November 2019, 11:21 AM   #2993
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
That professional psychiatrists consider his mental illness dangerous enough to be worth alarming the public about despite said alarm being a potential breach of ethics.
So what are you doing with that, exactly? Were you not alarmed with Trump before you heard of these shrinks? I'm quite sure their opinions didn't make you switch from Trump supporter to Never-Trumper; you strike me as someone who never would have voted for him in the first place. I'm also quite sure that you aren't contacting your representatives in congress, the VP or Cabinet members urging them to remove the President because he's dangerously mentally ill.

IOW, the most you can say is that these shrinks confirmed your bias or gave you another reason to oppose Trump. But the fact that these shrinks spoke out changes absolutely nothing big picture. Trump was elected, Trump will not be removed because of mental illness and Trump might even get re-elected (if not impeached for other reasons). I just wonder what good this breach of ethics did and if whatever that small good might be is worth it?
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Old 29th November 2019, 11:38 AM   #2994
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
How so? I'm not sure what you mean.
Sorry. What I meant was, when the culture shifts from caring about the community, or the family, or the country, or race or whatever, to caring about the individual, it's no surprise that narcissism becomes more in vogue.

It was just an open thought.
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Old 29th November 2019, 11:55 AM   #2995
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
So what are you doing with that, exactly?
Well, right now I'm debating with someone who persists in refusing to listen to the alarms (for some odd reason).

Quote:
Were you not alarmed with Trump before you heard of these shrinks? I'm quite sure their opinions didn't make you switch from Trump supporter to Never-Trumper; you strike me as someone who never would have voted for him in the first place.

Not me personally, but certainly some people could benefit from listening to them. In fact, you are one of those people.

Quote:
I'm also quite sure that you aren't contacting your representatives in congress, the VP or Cabinet members urging them to remove the President because he's dangerously mentally ill.
You're right, I'm not, but others are. Are you going to whine about that, too?

Look, you keep acting as if the preacher should just up because the choir is listening. Guess what: Others are listening, too. Not just people on this board, either.

Quote:
IOW, the most you can say is that these shrinks confirmed your bias or gave you another reason to oppose Trump.
And for some reason you seem to assume this applies to every single person in America.

Quote:
But the fact that these shrinks spoke out changes absolutely nothing big picture. Trump was elected, Trump will not be removed because of mental illness and Trump might even get re-elected (if not impeached for other reasons).
As I explained earlier, it helps to foment dissent against Trump, and that could very well result in his removal through impeachment or the 2020 election. You don't know the future, each of us play our own parts. Stop whining about it already.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 04:03 PM   #2996
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Here's a Trump job interview. More evidence of real disturbance.
https://time.com/5701364/david-shulkin-donald-trump/
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Old 4th December 2019, 09:15 PM   #2997
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Yale shrinks ask to testify to the Judiciary Committee:
Quote:
“We are speaking out at this time because we are convinced that, as the time of possible impeachment approaches, Donald Trump has the real potential to become ever more dangerous, a threat to the safety of our nation,” said Yale Medical School Professor Dr Bandy Lee, George Washington University Professor Dr John Zinner, and former CIA profiler Dr Jerrold Post in a statement which will be sent to House Judiciary Committee members on Thursday.

The statement will be accompanied by a petition with at least 350 signatures from mental health professionals endorsing their conclusions.
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-mental-...125938734.html
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Old 5th December 2019, 11:32 AM   #2998
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Ex-CIA profiler and psychiatry professor assesses Trump's influence and impact on his followers:
Quote:
A famous Canadian psychoanalyst observed, "The leader is the creation of his followers." This is a very powerful relationship. Indeed, many people have been puzzled, given Donald Trump’s extremism, that the support and the dedication of his followers to him has been not hugely diminished. Trump’s rallies, in particular, show an almost frightening intensity of the power of Trump’s charisma and influence over his followers.

For a core of his base Donald Trump provides them with many things, including permission to hate.
It is a striking phenomenon. In his behavior Trump is also demonstrating some of the principles which are codified in his book on leadership style. Of note, some of these themes are derived from an important mentor for him, the late Roy Cohn.

There is another important aspect to Trump’s influence over his supporters and that is the model of the “charismatic leader-follower relationship.” This is the “mirror-hungry personality,” which comes from a wounded self. The other dimension of the wounded self is an “ideal-hungry personality.” In practice this means that Trump’s core enthusiastic followers feel incomplete without a great inspirational leader to attach themselves to, someone to venerate. The mirror-hungry personality, which is Donald Trump, needs the ego-gratifying applause and roars of approval from crowds. There is a natural psychological fit between Trump and his followers.
https://www.salon.com/2019/12/02/for...rous-charisma/
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