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Old 24th April 2019, 02:18 PM   #81
wareyin
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why the hell are you even here then?
It's fun to laugh at pompous blowhards demonstrating a profound ignorance of the topic they are lecturing others on.

Why are you here?
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Old 24th April 2019, 02:39 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
It's fun to laugh at pompous blowhards demonstrating a profound ignorance of the topic they are lecturing others on.

Why are you here?
To discuss topics of interest. Because I'm not a narcissistic sociopath.
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Old 24th April 2019, 02:42 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You fundamentally misunderstand what I'm doing here. I'm not defending Trump. I'm criticizing your hysterical chicken little doomsday bull ****.
LOL! Don't worry, I understand fully: Whenever someone finds fault with Trump, you always seek another entity to blame, such as local aid vs federal aid, or justifications to explain why TX received disproportionately more aid than Puerto Rico, or that I am simply looking at the wrong time frame (9 days....Too Short! 180 days...Too Long! LMFAO!!)...among many other "rationalizations".

But suuuure....you would never stoop to defending Trump, would you? LOL!
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Old 24th April 2019, 02:44 PM   #84
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And I'm not guilty of posting hysterical chicken little doomsday bull ****. I am merely pointing out that a chaotic administration should not be counted on to be dependable in a time of crisis. And you know damn well we DO have crises from time to time.

But ignore reality if you want to.
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Old 24th April 2019, 02:59 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
To discuss topics of interest. Because I'm not a narcissistic sociopath.
That's nice. But given your claimed opinion on Obama (narcissist) and Trump (not a narcissist), I think I'll give your opinion on that just as much credence as your opinion on how nobody don't never need the federal gubmint to help with disasters, as long as they has insurance and a bottle of water!
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Old 24th April 2019, 05:18 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
That's nice. But given your claimed opinion on Obama (narcissist) and Trump (not a narcissist)
Oh, but I *DO* think Trump is a narcissist. I even said so back in that thread. You just assume **** you don't know and can't be bothered to check or ask about.
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Old 24th April 2019, 05:29 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, but I *DO* think Trump is a narcissist. I even said so back in that thread. You just assume **** you don't know and can't be bothered to check or ask about.
Wonderful, you had a 50% accurate way of determining narcissism. That's so much better!

Now, why don't you regale me with stories of how insurance and bottles of water provide emergency shelter, restore damaged infrastructure, and whatnot?
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:00 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Wonderful, you had a 50% accurate way of determining narcissism.
And you've got a less than 50% accurate way of determining my position.

Quote:
Now, why don't you regale me with stories of how insurance and bottles of water provide emergency shelter, restore damaged infrastructure, and whatnot?
Why should I describe something that isn't part of my claim?
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:04 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why should I describe something that isn't part of my claim?
Oh come now, the rugged individual as the only sure way of surviving a natural catastrophe was your most entertaining position yet. Don't abandon it now!
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:29 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This. The local government is there to take care of the outliers that can't completely provide for themselves.

The federal government is there for the outliers the local government can't help. And it's there for the overflow if the overall problem is simply larger than the local government can handle with local resources. And it's there to sustain a longer-term relief effort, beyond what the local government can afford. FEMA isn't supposed to be the front line of defense in an emergency. It's there to support and sustain the local government's own efforts, and to provide resources for planning emergency responses.
An outlier might occur if there was an island where four million people lived, and every single power plant on the island was knocked out, including all the power for the water pumps. That would be an outlier.

And it's true that FEMA can't handle a situation like that. FEMA goes in to places where they can set up shop a few miles from the disaster area, sleep in a hotel, eat in a restaurant, and coordinate some activities. If you tried to send FEMA onto an unpowered island with four million people on it, that would turn out badly.


Let's hope it never happens.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:33 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Oh come now, the rugged individual as the only sure way of surviving a natural catastrophe was your most entertaining position yet. Don't abandon it now!
It was explicitly never my position. But I know you will never abandon that straw man.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:44 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It was explicitly never my position. But I know you will never abandon that straw man.
I do wonder why local aid and self sufficiency, or whatever you might call it, were ever brought up. After all, the thread title is Federal response to hurricanes
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:59 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I do wonder why local aid and self sufficiency, or whatever you might call it, were ever brought up. After all, the thread title is Federal response to hurricanes
This thread arose out of the claim that Trump represents a unique threat. Hurricanes are only relevant here to the extent that they address that claim.

Local factors dominate the effectiveness of any response. If disaster preparedness is a priority for you, who the president is shouldn't be at the top of your list of concerns.
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Old 24th April 2019, 07:09 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This thread arose out of the claim that Trump represents a unique threat. Hurricanes are only relevant here to the extent that they address that claim.

Local factors dominate the effectiveness of any response. If disaster preparedness is a priority for you, who the president is shouldn't be at the top of your list of concerns.
If you look at my last post you will notice that I actually boldened the word "Federal", not "Hurricane". I never claimed that local factors don't help or aren't important, but the specific topic is Federal aid. This also coincides with the fact that this thread spun off from the Trump thread, who shares responsibility for federal aid, not local.
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Old 24th April 2019, 08:05 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Wonderful, you had a 50% accurate way of determining narcissism. That's so much better!

Now, why don't you regale me with stories of how insurance and bottles of water provide emergency shelter, restore damaged infrastructure, and whatnot?
Don't forget the paper towels!
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Old 24th April 2019, 08:15 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Oh, so Maria had 72% of the damage that Harvey had. Then why didn't they at least get 72% of the federal aid that Harvey had?
It's true that we are using fairly crude metrics to compare the federal response to different hurricanes. It's also true, IMO, that Puerto Rico's lack of electoral votes factored in to the Trump Administration's decision-making.

Plus, you know, big water. Ocean water.

Last edited by Minoosh; 24th April 2019 at 08:28 PM. Reason: word choice
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Old 24th April 2019, 11:04 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
If you look at my last post you will notice that I actually boldened the word "Federal", not "Hurricane". I never claimed that local factors don't help or aren't important, but the specific topic is Federal aid. This also coincides with the fact that this thread spun off from the Trump thread, who shares responsibility for federal aid, not local.
The thread title was picked by the mods who split this thread, not by the people engaged in the actual discussion. It is not definitive.
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Old 25th April 2019, 03:57 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I do wonder why local aid and self sufficiency, or whatever you might call it, were ever brought up. After all, the thread title is Federal response to hurricanes
They were brought up as a dodge. So what if Trump (and those he picked) is objectively terrible at disaster preparedness? All anyone ever could need is homeowner's insurance and a bottle of water to survive a hurricane, flash flood, earthquake, or any other natural disaster! It's those inner city libruls who are such pansies they need gubmint assistance, not us self-sufficient macho conservatives who have never even faced or considered natural disasters on a scale worse than the creek overflowing into part of the cow-pasture.
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Old 25th April 2019, 03:58 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Don't forget the paper towels!
Ah, yes, Presidential photo-ops. About the only thing Trump is eager to do for disaster areas.
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Old 25th April 2019, 07:41 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
This post will be reported.... by me. I just want them all in a row. Why is this not "kittening" or "recipe spamming"? Can grown-ups have a conversation without sophomoric content-free cheerleading?
Senpai will notice him one day
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Old 25th April 2019, 04:07 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It's true that we are using fairly crude metrics to compare the federal response to different hurricanes. It's also true, IMO, that Puerto Rico's lack of electoral votes factored in to the Trump Administration's decision-making.

Plus, you know, big water. Ocean water.
A lot of people have speculated about various reasons why Trump may have been indifferent. Racism? Classism? No electoral votes?

To me, it doesn't matter. In fact, I am not absolutely certain he was, in fact, indifferent. The truth is that the US government did quite a bit to aid in the aftermath of Maria. I don't know whether Trump cared all that much or paid all that much attention.

We can compare statistics about money spent if we want. That might be revealing. We can try to compare different scenarios. That could tell us something.

One thing we could also do is see how long one million or more Americans went without drinking water. Without flush toilets. Without electricity. Without access to modern medical facilities (i.e. hospitals that could conduct surgery. Doctor's offices that could perform basic care.)


I don't have the stats handy, but I know the basic answer. It was a long time.


Trump's response was inept. I don't care why it was inept.


And I'll defend the president against knee-jerk attacks where everything is blamed on Trump. However, in this case, it really was Trump's fault. When you are in charge, and something bad happens, it is your responsibility to do everything reasonable to fix it. If it doesn't get fixed, it's your fault. That's the point of being "in charge". You don't get to blame somebody else.


Was the local preparation inadequate? Absolutely. Was the local response acceptable? Maybe not. I really don't know. What I do know is that when it comes to the Oval Office, "The buck stops here." You don't get to blame the mayor of San Juan if things don't go well. Millions of Americans were without clean water for weeks. That shouldn't have happened, but it did. Who is to blame? Well, there is probably more than one person, but there is, in fact, one person at the top. I blame him.
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Old 25th April 2019, 06:22 PM   #102
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What could Trump have done differently to get water and electricity running sooner?
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Old 25th April 2019, 07:04 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What could Trump have done differently to get water and electricity running sooner?
Activated the military and enlisted their ability to construct roads and move heavy equipment the morning after the hurricane. There were military units involved early, but they were poorly coordinated and mostly delivering supplies. He eventually did put a general in charge of the recovery effort. I believe it was about 10 days after the hurricane. He ordered a hospital ship to the area. I believe that was nine days after the hurricane.


Basically, he (and I say he because he is the guy in charge) treated it like it was another hurricane, but maybe a bit worse. That was inappropriate. In a regular hurricane situation, there is the area that got devastated, and across the street there is electricity and running water. Not so in this case. It was different, and it required a different response.


I don't know exactly what Seabees and the Army Corps of Engineers do for a living. I don't know the logistics of it all, but I have this feeling that if you tell the folks in charge of those units that it's their job to get the water turned on, and that the guy in charge will be waiting for their phone call if they need anything, they can get it done. Not to the remote mountain villages, but into the cities where four million people lived. One month after the hurricane, there should not have been a million Americans without running water.
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Old 25th April 2019, 07:14 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't know exactly what Seabees and the Army Corps of Engineers do for a living. I don't know the logistics of it all, but I have this feeling that if you tell the folks in charge of those units that it's their job to get the water turned on, and that the guy in charge will be waiting for their phone call if they need anything, they can get it done.
I was hoping for something more substantial than "a feeling".
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Old 25th April 2019, 07:21 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I was hoping for something more substantial than "a feeling".
Then ask a construction engineer.


Do you seriously believe that what they did was the best that could have been done? Do you really think that the ACE couldn't get a power plant and a water treatment facility back on line in a week? With no one shooting at them?
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Old 25th April 2019, 08:27 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Then ask a construction engineer.
Are construction engineers making the claim that Trump failed?

Quote:
Do you seriously believe that what they did was the best that could have been done?
No, he probably didn't. But that's fairly typical of government. It rarely works as well in practice as it could in principle. So how is Trump a unique risk in this regard? It's not enough that he didn't do as well as he could have.

Quote:
Do you really think that the ACE couldn't get a power plant and a water treatment facility back on line in a week? With no one shooting at them?
I don't know. It depends a lot on the details of what exactly broke, and I don't see anyone presenting a case on that basis. The argument from incredulity doesn't suffice to convince me they could. Maybe they could, but I don't accept that as a given.
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Old 26th April 2019, 07:24 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post


No, he probably didn't. But that's fairly typical of government.


Only when it’s run by Republicans. Once the systematic incompetence of Republican ideology is removed from the equation many things (like managing a major disaster) can be and are performed efficiently and effectively.
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Old 26th April 2019, 07:34 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Only when it’s run by Republicans.
Even accepting this premise (which is obviously false - has Ray Nagin been memory holed for you?), we're still back to Trump not being a unique threat.
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Old 26th April 2019, 08:43 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Even accepting this premise (which is obviously false - has Ray Nagin been memory holed for you?), we're still back to Trump not being a unique threat.
Going back to your “change the subject” defence of Trump huh?

Nothing related to Katrina is at issue here, even Bush’s bungled response is at issue here. Bush wasn’t overly competent but few believe he deliberately and maliciously incompetent like Trump is proving to be.

The question of whether Trump is unique is also equally irrelevant. He may be the first, but given how far the Republican party has fallen, he’s unlikely to be the last incompetent, malicious, terrible human being Republicans nominate and support
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:00 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The question of whether Trump is unique is also equally irrelevant.
Whether Trump is unique is the entire basis for this thread.
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:16 AM   #111
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Claim: Trump is especially catastrophic.

Counter-Claim: Trump is no more catastrophic than other politicians.

Case Study: Disaster preparedness and response, specifically hurricanes.


---

If Trump isn't unique in this regard, why even bother to complain?
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:29 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If Trump isn't unique in this regard, why even bother to complain?
Because Orange Man Bad.
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:35 AM   #113
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Exclamation

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Whether Trump is unique is the entire basis for this thread.
Your reading comprehension appears to have failed you. The statement wasn't that Trump isn't unique, it was that so far he is unique, but Republicans will almost assuredly do worse in the future.
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:39 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Claim: Trump is especially catastrophic.

Counter-Claim: Trump is no more catastrophic than other politicians.

Case Study: Disaster preparedness and response, specifically hurricanes.


---

If Trump isn't unique in this regard, why even bother to complain?
You mean the evidence of Trump picking which ethnic groups to provide more federal aid to isn't worthy of complaints?

When your case study shows a fraction of federal aid spent for brown people as for white people that's bad. Especially given that aid to an island is more difficult, meaning more costly, and so receiving so much less has a larger impact.
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Old 26th April 2019, 09:46 AM   #115
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Your reading comprehension appears to have failed you. The statement wasn't that Trump isn't unique, it was that so far he is unique, but Republicans will almost assuredly do worse in the future.
All we have is "so far". So if he's unique "so far", then he's unique. Except as we keep seeing, he isn't.

And every Republican president is Hitler, until the next one comes along and the former one gets rehabilitated.
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Old 26th April 2019, 10:04 AM   #116
wareyin
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
All we have is "so far". So if he's unique "so far", then he's unique. Except as we keep seeing, he isn't.
Maybe you could share what you claim to be seeing that makes him not unique? Because all I see so far is desperate attempts to normalise him that convince no one.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And every Republican president is Hitler, until the next one comes along and the former one gets rehabilitated. is actually worse than the last one.
Ftfy
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Old 26th April 2019, 10:14 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
All we have is "so far". So if he's unique "so far", then he's unique. Except as we keep seeing, he isn't.

And every Republican president is Hitler, until the next one comes along and the former one gets rehabilitated.
It's part of a deliberate GOP strategy to make their past Presidents look good by making their current ones so horrible. I mean, Bush was bad, but Trump makes him look good in comparison.

I wonder what they will top Trump with. Steve King? Steven Miller? A rabid, face-eating monkey? An actual clone of Hitler?
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Old 26th April 2019, 10:40 AM   #118
theprestige
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You mean the evidence of Trump picking which ethnic groups to provide more federal aid to isn't worthy of complaints?

When your case study shows a fraction of federal aid spent for brown people as for white people that's bad. Especially given that aid to an island is more difficult, meaning more costly, and so receiving so much less has a larger impact.
OMG. I just realized I've been confusing you with wasapi this whole time. I'm sorry.
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Old 26th April 2019, 10:56 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Maybe you could share what you claim to be seeing that makes him not unique? Because all I see so far is desperate attempts to normalise him that convince no one.
The claim was that Trump was uniquely unprepared to deal with catastrophes. That wasn't my claim. I've merely pointed out that that claim hasn't been backed up.

Quote:
Ftfy
Whatever you say, chicken little.
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Old 26th April 2019, 11:27 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Ftfy
LOL.

Dubya is already Hitler. How do you get worse than that? What is Trump? Double Hitler? Hitler 3000?

"Literally Hitler I'm serious this time guys," doesn't make you seem serious this time. It just makes you seem unserious every time. Including this time.
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