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Tags donald trump , Mueller investigation , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , William Barr

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Old 10th November 2019, 11:34 PM   #201
Aridas
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're right, you didn't. That was my mistake conflating a couple other posts with yours. Yuppie suggested I was "normalizing lying" . In my view Trump has been peeing on America with his constant lying and attacks on our institutions. I ADMITTEDLY took a literary licence
And as I noted, I find that particular kind of literary license to be problematic, given that it gets important things wrong and does it in a way that supports known misinformation.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
with the Steele dossier which in itself offered an outrageous story without any evidence about Russian hookers and Trump.
Again, this is Trump. "Outrageous" likely isn't the right word.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I mean if you're going to believe that story on that evidence whats the difference?


I don't even need to go to Wikipedia since I saw the interview they referenced. It's not that Comey thought poorly of Steele. It's that he saw the Steele Dossier for what it was which was raw intelligence. He didn't believe the salacious bits and while he thought the Dossier warranted further vetting he wasn't going to prejudge how much was true or false.
And, to be clear, I respect Comey's stated position there. With that said, there is a substantial difference between dismissing something out of hand, which is exactly what you're saying that you did, reserving judgement until such time as more evidence is added to the equation, which is more along the lines of what Comey stated he did for the Dossier (and I did), and just believing something based on that alone, which quite seems to be what you're characterizing as the position that anyone who didn't immediately dismiss it out of hand is taking. Going further, when you claim that Comey first believed that the Steele Dossier could be true when Trump asked him to disprove it all, that's painting a substantially different picture from what Comey stated, which you're now walking back a little.

Either way, when it comes to discussion about how likely that particular bit of raw intelligence actually is, it's worth poking at that little thing in the Mueller Report where we have a Russian claiming that he's stopped the tapes from spreading. Also, Trump's numerous and demonstrated lies in his defense. Certainly not proof in and of itself, but it's certainly enough that the tapes story probably shouldn't be just assumed to be false.
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Old 11th November 2019, 02:53 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
World Exclusive: Post Testimony Interview with Randy Credico

Quote:
The Clinton media, including CNN, the Washington Post and New York Times, are baffled by this.
What's funny is that you're not embarrassed with posting drivel like this. The "Clinton media"? Really? CE, you need to get back to reality.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Another fact-free word salad.
Made perfect sense to me.
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Old 11th November 2019, 08:36 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post

And, to be clear, I respect Comey's stated position there. With that said, there is a substantial difference between dismissing something out of hand, which is exactly what you're saying that you did, reserving judgement until such time as more evidence is added to the equation, which is more along the lines of what Comey stated he did for the Dossier (and I did), and just believing something based on that alone, which quite seems to be what you're characterizing as the position that anyone who didn't immediately dismiss it out of hand is taking. Going further, when you claim that Comey first believed that the Steele Dossier could be true when Trump asked him to disprove it all, that's painting a substantially different picture from what Comey stated, which you're now walking back a little.

Either way, when it comes to discussion about how likely that particular bit of raw intelligence actually is, it's worth poking at that little thing in the Mueller Report where we have a Russian claiming that he's stopped the tapes from spreading. Also, Trump's numerous and demonstrated lies in his defense. Certainly not proof in and of itself, but it's certainly enough that the tapes story probably shouldn't be just assumed to be false.
I don't think we are that far off on Comey. What I said was he didn't take much stock in it. I guess I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't saying that he dismissed it out of hand, but that it required a lot more vetting for him to vouch for its details.
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Old 11th November 2019, 08:46 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Yes, the Trump-Russia collusion conspiracy theory was entirely a western media and western intelligence generated PYSOPS campaign against the American people; not a single bit of it was ever true.
Fascinating. The Justice Dept is investigating the origins of the investigation into Trump. If this investigation fails to deliver, will you re-assess?

Even if I accept this spectacular CT at face value, there are still glaring problems, such as the infamous Trump Tower meeting with Russian operatives, and Trump's lies attempting to explain said meeting.

At the very least, this lays to waste "entirely".
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Old 12th November 2019, 08:33 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I see tanabear just keeps repeating the same nonsense.

I think what's funny is Andrew McCabe. The man who made sure the investigations into Trump would go on after he met with Trump who was dancing on fired Comey's grave. McCabe became the acting FBI director after Comey's firing. Trump wanted McCabe to parrot his line that FBI was happy to see Comey go. But McCabe wouldn't play ball and said the opposite directly contradicting the Liar in Chief.
This is an interesting statement: "The man who made sure the investigations into Trump would go on after he met with Trump..."

The FBI's Crossfire Hurricane was a counterintelligence investigation, not a criminal investigation. A counterintelligence investigation is to gather information on foreign threats pertaining to national security. It was not an investigation into Trump, but supposedly an investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election. James Comey had assured Trump three times that he was not personally under investigation. The first time was during their first meeting on January 6th, 2017. He briefed Trump on some of the more salacious claims in the yet un-published dossier. Then again on January 27th and lastly on March 30th.

From James Comey's testimony on June 8th, 2017:

COLLINS: There was the March 30th phone call with the president in which you reminded him that congressional leaders had been briefed that we were no personally — the FBI was not personally investigating president trump. And, again, was that statement to congressional leaders and to the president limited to counterintelligence investigations, or was it a broader statement? I'm trying to understand whether there was any kind of investigation of the president underway.

COMEY: No. I'm sorry. If I misunderstood, I apologize. We briefed the congressional leadership about what Americans we had opened counterintelligence investigation cases on. We specifically said, the president is not one of those Americans. But there was no other investigation of the president that we were not mentioning at that time. The context was, counterintelligence, but I wasn't trying to hide some criminal investigation of the president.

COLLINS: And was the president under investigation at the time of your dismissal on May 9th?

COMEY: No.

So according to James Comey, Trump was not under investigation when Comey was dismissed. Now I understand that many Americans thought that Trump was under investigation at this time. This was due to all the classified information being linked to the press about Trump and his contacts with Russia ad infinitum. It was creating a cloud over his Presidency. He wanted James Comey to state publicly what he was telling Trump privately, that he personally was not under investigation. Comey refused and Trump said, "You're fired!"

Of course, this plot by Comey and others to tell Trump that he was not personally under investigation was merely a tactic to keep the investigation going once Trump became President. It was always really a criminal investigation masquerading as a "counterintelligence" investigation.

And how could firing Comey be obstruction if Comey assured him he wasn't under investigation?

Rod Rosenstein then appointed Robert Mueller as Special Counsel so he could get back into the good graces of the fake news media. What experience does Mueller have in counterintelligence? What crimes were they tasked with investigating? None. It was an open ended fishing expedition. Or to be more blunt, the next phase of the coup attempt.

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Fascinating. The Justice Dept is investigating the origins of the investigation into Trump. If this investigation fails to deliver, will you re-assess?

Even if I accept this spectacular CT at face value, there are still glaring problems, such as the infamous Trump Tower meeting with Russian operatives, and Trump's lies attempting to explain said meeting.

At the very least, this lays to waste "entirely".
Do you believe that Joseph Mifsud is really a Russian agent?

The Trump tower meeting was arranged by Bob Goldstone, a British music publicist. They met with Natalia Veselnitskaya who strangely enough was also working with Glenn Simpson of Fusion GPS. Small World!!!
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Old 12th November 2019, 08:50 PM   #206
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More fact-free gish gallop from 16.5 v2.0
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Old 12th November 2019, 10:19 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
This is an interesting statement: "[i]The man who made sure the investigations into Trump would go on after he met with Trump..."

So according to James Comey, Trump was not under investigation when Comey was dismissed. Now I understand that many Americans thought that Trump was under investigation at this time. This was due to all the classified information being linked to the press about Trump and his contacts with Russia ad infinitum. It was creating a cloud over his Presidency. He wanted James Comey to state publicly what he was telling Trump privately, that he personally was not under investigation. Comey refused and Trump said, "You're fired!"

Of course, this plot by Comey and others to tell Trump that he was not personally under investigation was merely a tactic to keep the investigation going once Trump became President. It was always really a criminal investigation masquerading as a "counterintelligence" investigation.

And how could firing Comey be obstruction if Comey assured him he wasn't under investigation?

Rod Rosenstein then appointed Robert Mueller as Special Counsel so he could get back into the good graces of the fake news media. What experience does Mueller have in counterintelligence? What crimes were they tasked with investigating? None. It was an open ended fishing expedition. Or to be more blunt, the next phase of the coup attempt.

The Trump tower meeting was arranged by Bob Goldstone, a British music publicist. They met with Natalia Veselnitskaya who strangely enough was also working with Glenn Simpson of Fusion GPS. Small World!!!

What a moronic and stupid CT post. Trump is a lying dishonest POS. And yet you just eat it up and go yummie. Seriously, why would you EVER believe someone who over the last 30 years has proven he is incapable of telling the truth? He screams FAKE NEWS and you eat it up. What if he said LUGENPRESSE?

You dismiss Comey a lifetime Federal Law Enforcement officer and take the word of a carnival barker? The media is all lying. The cops are all lying. The ambassadors are all lying. Trump said he didn't know the two Russians associates of Giuliani and yet they met with Trump at least 10 times. Is the press lying about that? Everyone is lying but the biggest liar of all.

What we get from Trump is disinformation diarrhea. Me, I don't eat ****.

I really don't understand your entire CT post. Rob Goldstone was saying he had dirt on Hillary Clinton from Russia and Jr and his father were thrilled to get.any and all they could get and could care about where they came from. We'll never know what really went on during the Trump tower meeting only the bs fed to us by Trump and his cabal.

McCabe thought that Trump was acting incredibly guilty about Russia and 20 years of law enforcement experience kicked in. McCabe knew they were investigating Russia. That doesn't mean they were investigating Trump. They were investigating Russian involvement in the election. But obviously McCabe knew there were Trump connections. There is no dispute that there was...other than the swill that Trump was peddling.

Trump has been feeding the world this moronic paranoid conspiracy theory that the FBI was out to get him from the very beginning. Yet the facts show they just followed the leads. And the biggest lead of all is Trump and his behavior. As you said, Trump asked Comey multiple times if they were investigating him. If he didn't do anything wrong why is he so concerned? Then he fires Comey to halt the investigation. Then Trump undermines the investigation.

Over and over and over and over, Trump does what a guilty person would do but it's the cops problem for being suspicious? After the firing Comey, McCabe takes over and immediately Trump in his way is suggesting the McCabe should parrot Trump's lies about Comey.

Gee, you think asking a 20 year veteran police officer with an impeccable record you just met to lie is a good idea?

It comes down to this. You see, I cannot trust Trump. Because well, he's untrustworthy.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 12th November 2019 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 13th November 2019, 12:43 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What a moronic and stupid CT post. Trump is a lying dishonest POS. And yet you just eat it up and go yummie. Seriously, why would you EVER believe someone who over the last 30 years has proven he is incapable of telling the truth? He screams FAKE NEWS and you eat it up. What if he said LUGENPRESSE?

You dismiss Comey a lifetime Federal Law Enforcement officer and take the word of a carnival barker? The media is all lying. The cops are all lying. The ambassadors are all lying. Trump said he didn't know the two Russians associates of Giuliani and yet they met with Trump at least 10 times. Is the press lying about that? Everyone is lying but the biggest liar of all.

What we get from Trump is disinformation diarrhea. Me, I don't eat ****.

I really don't understand your entire CT post. Rob Goldstone was saying he had dirt on Hillary Clinton from Russia and Jr and his father were thrilled to get.any and all they could get and could care about where they came from. We'll never know what really went on during the Trump tower meeting only the bs fed to us by Trump and his cabal.

McCabe thought that Trump was acting incredibly guilty about Russia and 20 years of law enforcement experience kicked in. McCabe knew they were investigating Russia. That doesn't mean they were investigating Trump. They were investigating Russian involvement in the election. But obviously McCabe knew there were Trump connections. There is no dispute that there was...other than the swill that Trump was peddling.

Trump has been feeding the world this moronic paranoid conspiracy theory that the FBI was out to get him from the very beginning. Yet the facts show they just followed the leads. And the biggest lead of all is Trump and his behavior. As you said, Trump asked Comey multiple times if they were investigating him. If he didn't do anything wrong why is he so concerned? Then he fires Comey to halt the investigation. Then Trump undermines the investigation.

Over and over and over and over, Trump does what a guilty person would do but it's the cops problem for being suspicious? After the firing Comey, McCabe takes over and immediately Trump in his way is suggesting the McCabe should parrot Trump's lies about Comey.

Gee, you think asking a 20 year veteran police officer with an impeccable record you just met to lie is a good idea?

It comes down to this. You see, I cannot trust Trump. Because well, he's untrustworthy.

Right on the money!

If Trump was 100% innocent as he claims, and the victim of a plot to overthrow him as he claims, he would welcome these investigations; he would instruct his aides and the people around him to comply with all the subpoenas and to go to Congress and testify to what a fine chap he is, and how he has done nothing wrong or illegal.

But that is not what he has done is it? He has obstructed these investigations in every possible way he can. People who obstruct investigations into themselves are de-facto displaying a consciousness of guilt in foot-high capital letters - literally screaming their guilt from the rooftops.
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Old 13th November 2019, 01:11 AM   #209
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Mueller's defenders always say he does things "by the book".
But that depends on which book we are talking about, doesn't it?

In the case of the Report, Mueller certainly didn't take a page out of the Nixon or Clinton Impeachment investigations.
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Old 13th November 2019, 11:37 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Mueller's defenders always say he does things "by the book".
But that depends on which book we are talking about, doesn't it?

In the case of the Report, Mueller certainly didn't take a page out of the Nixon or Clinton Impeachment investigations.
Such as...?
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Old 13th November 2019, 12:39 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Quote:
In the case of the Report, Mueller certainly didn't take a page out of the Nixon or Clinton Impeachment investigations.
Such as...?
Well for one, the Kenneth Starr (both in the media and his report into Clinton) was a lot more direct about Clinton's legal issues and how to proceed with the impeachment.

Compare that to Mueller, and his "I did not exonerate" statement, or his statement about Trump's truthfulness in his statements. If Mueller used the same tone that Starr did, he would have come right out and said "Trump committed perjury and obstructed justice."
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Old 13th November 2019, 01:17 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well for one, the Kenneth Starr (both in the media and his report into Clinton) was a lot more direct about Clinton's legal issues and how to proceed with the impeachment.



Compare that to Mueller, and his "I did not exonerate" statement, or his statement about Trump's truthfulness in his statements. If Mueller used the same tone that Starr did, he would have come right out and said "Trump committed perjury and obstructed justice."
Remind me again what Starr was originally after and what they ended up impeaching him for.

His being super clear about it strikes me as his being super partisan about it and therefore not a standard to emulate.

Basically all of the things Trump says about Mueller are close to how I see Starr's investigation.
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Old 13th November 2019, 04:40 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Mueller's defenders always say he does things "by the book".
But that depends on which book we are talking about, doesn't it?

In the case of the Report, Mueller certainly didn't take a page out of the Nixon or Clinton Impeachment investigations.
One reason could be that Nixon had a Special Prosecutor, Clinton had an Independent Counsel, and Mueller was a Special Counsel.

While similar, each of the positions is slightly different in scope and ability to recommend things.
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Old 13th November 2019, 08:19 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What a moronic and stupid CT post. Trump is a lying dishonest POS. And yet you just eat it up and go yummie. Seriously, why would you EVER believe someone who over the last 30 years has proven he is incapable of telling the truth?
Oh come on, you know why.

And try to be a little more sympathetic. Imagine going to bed each night wondering what obnoxious lies you may have to be on board with tomorrow. Defending the indefensible at every turn, so much cognitive dissonance it makes your head hurt, constantly being attacked for having the courage to support our president no matter what - but this is what it takes to be a true patriot in today's America!
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Old 13th November 2019, 08:39 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Oh come on, you know why.

And try to be a little more sympathetic. Imagine going to bed each night wondering what obnoxious lies you may have to be on board with tomorrow. Defending the indefensible at every turn, so much cognitive dissonance it makes your head hurt, constantly being attacked for having the courage to support our president no matter what - but this is what it takes to be a true patriot in today's America!
I just can't find it in my heart to be sympathetic.

Although I guess it does look like Trump is going to win on dismantling DACA. And as much as I hate that he is doing it. I agree with the arguments his lawyers on this. Which might be a first. Usually, I'm shaking my head.
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Old 15th November 2019, 07:02 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
...If this investigation fails to deliver, will you re-assess?
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Do you believe that Joseph Mifsud is really a Russian agent?
You talked right past me, ignoring my question. Sorry, I don't indulge evasiveness. You answer mine and I'll be glad to answer yours.
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Old 15th November 2019, 07:45 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Oh come on, you know why.

And try to be a little more sympathetic. Imagine going to bed each night wondering what obnoxious lies you may have to be on board with tomorrow. Defending the indefensible at every turn, so much cognitive dissonance it makes your head hurt, constantly being attacked for having the courage to support our president no matter what - but this is what it takes to be a true patriot in today's America!
I get into this same conundrum with the the religious. And I'm never satisfied with the answers. It's one thing to believe something when there is no evidence either way. But to hang on to that belief despite a mountain of evidence contradicting it has always flabbergasted me.

And maybe it's just me but I can't bear conning myself and it's worse than unbearable to say out loud what I find tenuous. I've never made up my mind whether these people really believe the nonsense or are just unwilling to face the consequence of having to deal with reality.

It's like this. I called myself a Christian for 30 years although I never really believed. There were consequences to saying I'm not a believer. So I didn't. For these people who supported Trump, I don't think they believe Trump didn't do something wrong, they just don't want to face the facts and the consequences that he did.
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Old 16th November 2019, 11:41 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What a moronic and stupid CT post. Trump is a lying dishonest POS. And yet you just eat it up and go yummie. Seriously, why would you EVER believe someone who over the last 30 years has proven he is incapable of telling the truth? He screams FAKE NEWS and you eat it up. What if he said LUGENPRESSE?

You dismiss Comey a lifetime Federal Law Enforcement officer and take the word of a carnival barker? The media is all lying. The cops are all lying. The ambassadors are all lying. Trump said he didn't know the two Russians associates of Giuliani and yet they met with Trump at least 10 times. Is the press lying about that? Everyone is lying but the biggest liar of all.
You had stated, "The man who made sure the investigations into Trump would go on after he met with Trump..."

I pointed out that, according to Jim Comey, that Trump was not personally under investigation when he was dismissed. Now instead of being appreciative of the fact that I pointed out an error in your statement, you decided to launch into another fact-free anti-Trump screed; Orangeman bad, FBI good. I've learned that Skeptoids and Leftoids don't like their bubbles burst with the Truth.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I really don't understand your entire CT post. Rob Goldstone was saying he had dirt on Hillary Clinton from Russia and Jr and his father were thrilled to get.any and all they could get and could care about where they came from. We'll never know what really went on during the Trump tower meeting only the bs fed to us by Trump and his cabal.
The Don Jr. meeting certainly does elicit a lot of faux outrage amongst the Left. But what doesn't elicit any outrage at all?

Holier-than-thou-art Adam Schiff tried to get dirt on Trump from foreign sources(Russian comedians) which he thought was real.

Caller: Yes, absolutely. And she got compromising materials on Trump after their short relations.
Schiff: Okay. And what’s the nature of the Kompromat?
Caller: Well, there were pictures of naked Trump.
Schiff: Okay. And so Putin was made aware of the availability of the comprising material?
Caller: Yes, of course...
Caller: Yes. On that meeting, Ukupnik told Flynn that all those compromising materials will never be released if Trump will cancel all the Russian sanctions.
Schiff: Okay. Well, obviously, we would welcome the chance to get copies of those recordings. So we will try to work with the FBI to figure out along with your staff how we can obtain copies of those.

Obviously no one on the Left is outraged about Deep State snake Schiff asking for kompromat on Trump from foreign sources. Neither are they outraged by the Steele dossier which has Russian sources too. But if a Republican does something like this it is treason.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
McCabe thought that Trump was acting incredibly guilty about Russia and 20 years of law enforcement experience kicked in. McCabe knew they were investigating Russia. That doesn't mean they were investigating Trump. They were investigating Russian involvement in the election. But obviously McCabe knew there were Trump connections. There is no dispute that there was...other than the swill that Trump was peddling.
If McCabe thought Trump was acting guilty then his instincts weren't very good because there was no Trump-Russia collusion. And I thought we were supposed to investigate people based off evidence, not feelings?

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Trump has been feeding the world this moronic paranoid conspiracy theory that the FBI was out to get him from the very beginning..
The FBI was out to get him from the beginning. Haven't you read the Lisa Page and Peter Strzok texts?

Page: “God trump is a loathsome human….omg he’s an idiot.”
He’s awful,” Strzok replied.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yet the facts show they just followed the leads. And the biggest lead of all is Trump and his behavior. As you said, Trump asked Comey multiple times if they were investigating him. If he didn't do anything wrong why is he so concerned? Then he fires Comey to halt the investigation. Then Trump undermines the investigation. .
What leads did they follow? The best leads to have followed would have been to simply verify the sources listed in the Steele dossier and interview them. This should have been easy as Christopher Steele was an FBI informant. Yet there is no indication they did any of this. They did not follow leads, they manufactured them.

Trump was concerned because the press was reporting on his ties to Russia. The media was creating the impression that Trump was under investigation when according to Comey, he wasn't.

The New York Times reported on March 20th 2017: F.B.I. Is Investigating Trump’s Russia Ties, Comey Confirms.

Yet Comey stated that Trump was not under investigation at the time of his dismissal. So the media is saying one thing and Comey is saying something else. Trump wanted Comey to clarify the nature of the investigation. Comey refused to do this because it wasn't an investigation. It was a coup attempt. So Comey was fired.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Over and over and over and over, Trump does what a guilty person would do but it's the cops problem for being suspicious? After the firing Comey, McCabe takes over and immediately Trump in his way is suggesting the McCabe should parrot Trump's lies about Comey.
We know this isn't true because Trump wasn't guilty. The fact that he was "acting guilty" was just more manufactured fake news.


Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
If Trump was 100% innocent as he claims, and the victim of a plot to overthrow him as he claims, he would welcome these investigations; he would instruct his aides and the people around him to comply with all the subpoenas and to go to Congress and testify to what a fine chap he is, and how he has done nothing wrong or illegal.

But that is not what he has done is it? He has obstructed these investigations in every possible way he can. People who obstruct investigations into themselves are de-facto displaying a consciousness of guilt in foot-high capital letters - literally screaming their guilt from the rooftops.
Why should Trump welcome an investigation manufactured by his political opponents over a crime he did not commit? Can we just go around investigating anyone without probable cause? It sounds like you are advocating for a police-state society. Let's bring the full power and resources of the surveillance state and law enforcement down on our political enemies.

Also the "investigation" was not obstructed. Robert Mueller even stated this in this testimony.
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Old 16th November 2019, 12:13 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
You had stated, "The man who made sure the investigations into Trump would go on after he met with Trump..."

I pointed out that, according to Jim Comey, that Trump was not personally under investigation when he was dismissed. Now instead of being appreciative of the fact that I pointed out an error in your statement, you decided to launch into another fact-free anti-Trump screed; Orangeman bad, FBI good. I've learned that Skeptoids and Leftoids don't like their bubbles burst with the Truth.

If McCabe thought Trump was acting guilty then his instincts weren't very good because there was no Trump-Russia collusion. And I thought we were supposed to investigate people based off evidence, not feelings?

The FBI was out to get him from the beginning. Haven't you read the Lisa Page and Peter Strzok texts?

Page: “God trump is a loathsome human….omg he’s an idiot.”
He’s awful,” Strzok replied.

What leads did they follow? The best leads to have followed would have been to simply verify the sources listed in the Steele dossier and interview them. This should have been easy as Christopher Steele was an FBI informant. Yet there is no indication they did any of this. They did not follow leads, they manufactured them.

Trump was concerned because the press was reporting on his ties to Russia. The media was creating the impression that Trump was under investigation when according to Comey, he wasn't.

The New York Times reported on March 20th 2017: F.B.I. Is Investigating Trump’s Russia Ties, Comey Confirms.

Yet Comey stated that Trump was not under investigation at the time of his dismissal. So the media is saying one thing and Comey is saying something else. Trump wanted Comey to clarify the nature of the investigation. Comey refused to do this because it wasn't an investigation. It was a coup attempt. So Comey was fired.



We know this isn't true because Trump wasn't guilty. The fact that he was "acting guilty" was just more manufactured fake news.

Why should Trump welcome an investigation manufactured by his political opponents over a crime he did not commit? Can we just go around investigating anyone without probable cause? It sounds like you are advocating for a police-state society. Let's bring the full power and resources of the surveillance state and law enforcement down on our political enemies.

Also the "investigation" was not obstructed. Robert Mueller even stated this in this testimony.
Wow! Just how many things are wong with this post. To start with. A law enforcement officer DOESN'T have to inform a suspect whether or not they are investigating him even if that suspect is the president. And it was well known that the FBI and the CIA had been investigating Russian involvement in our elections before the election. If the President did nothing wrong and the press was wrongly reporting he was being investigated, you would think he'd rather a full investigation and having the FBI announced that he had nothing to do with it. Keep in mind Comey is a Republican and not HIS political opponent. Trump most likely wouldn't even be President if not for his interference.

What is he worried about?

Also, Mueller did not find there was no collusion, only that he couldn't prove that there was. Huge difference. As for Page and Strozk, what makes you think a law enforcement officer can't dislike a suspect and still follow the evidence and the law?
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Old 16th November 2019, 01:04 PM   #220
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To poke at a little bit of what's so utterly wrong with your claims...

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Schiff: Okay. Well, obviously, we would welcome the chance to get copies of those recordings. So we will try to work with the FBI to figure out along with your staff how we can obtain copies of those.
Funny how you ignore this very, very important thing, which gets right to the heart of the issues at hand. Schiff made it perfectly clear that he fully intended to abide by the law and work with law enforcement to make sure everything done would abide by the law. Trump made it fully clear that he had no intention of abiding by the law or working with law enforcement and, in fact, didn't abide by it. Then, of course, there's the question of who, exactly, is involved and the nature of the interaction. Was Schiff soliciting this from a foreign government, for example? Sure doesn't look like it.

Your attempted equivalence just shows that you don't know what you're talking about. Maybe, just maybe, try to understand the actual concepts in play, rather than the gross caricatures of the concepts that the GOP and Russian propagandists forward as they try to distract and distort?

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
The FBI was out to get him from the beginning. Haven't you read the Lisa Page and Peter Strzok texts?

Page: “God trump is a loathsome human….omg he’s an idiot.”
He’s awful,” Strzok replied.
LOL! Perhaps you don't realize how utterly stupid this attempt at an argument is? Even before we get to the obvious cherry-picking, you're trying to claim that the personal opinion of two individuals is proof of professional misconduct by an entire agency. Professional misconduct that's in the exact opposite direction as the misconduct by the FBI that actually happened in reality.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Why should Trump welcome an investigation manufactured by his political opponents over a crime he did not commit? Can we just go around investigating anyone without probable cause? It sounds like you are advocating for a police-state society. Let's bring the full power and resources of the surveillance state and law enforcement down on our political enemies.
Ahh, the joys of Republican projection, where the weak on crime Democrats actually want a police state to attack their political enemies. Never mind that the Republicans are the ones that have been pushing police state policies and have been openly doing their best to use the judicial system to attack their enemies for brazenly political purposes. That the DOJ failed to get a grand jury to indict McCabe is quite telling there, before getting to the rest of the BS that the Republicans have been engaging in.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Also the "investigation" was not obstructed. Robert Mueller even stated this in this testimony.
Except for the parts where he made it pretty clear that it was.

Still, congratulations for actually getting me to bite at your parade of nonsense. You've confirmed yet again that you can safely be ignored, either way. Are you actually a reverse troll, though? One who's trying to make Trump supporters look like total idiots?
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Old 16th November 2019, 02:28 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
The Justice Dept is investigating the origins of the investigation into Trump. If this investigation fails to deliver, will you re-assess?
@tanabear Your continuing evasion of this question leaves me to assume that even if Barr fails to deliver proof of the things you claim, that won't deter you. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 17th November 2019, 06:32 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Wow! Just how many things are wong with this post.
This shouldn't surprise you by now. Every single one of his posts here is disinformation. I can only surmise that it's deliberate, but I don't know who the audience is supposed to be.
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Old 17th November 2019, 11:32 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
This shouldn't surprise you by now. Every single one of his posts here is disinformation. I can only surmise that it's deliberate, but I don't know who the audience is supposed to be.
Nothing since Trump became President surprises me any more. It has been one long parade of people parroting the lies that Trump and right wingers peddle.
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Old 17th November 2019, 12:33 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Of course you do. Do you know that famous Black Knight scene? That's what you and your fellow Russiagate CTers look like after all crippled legs of the moronic story you bothered the world with for years have come off. And here you are acting as if nobody noticed. Funny.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Well, ACbyT and most unabashed progressive/liberal/democrats are inclined to white knight quite a bit. There must be some irony in that somewhere.
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Old 17th November 2019, 12:39 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Now the Monty Python Black Knight skit is hilarious. I give you that. But there is nothing funny about Trump being Putin's bitch. I see that Dumb Donald is considering attending the May Day celebrations as his benefactor's guest. First Trump gets Russian hookers to pee on him. Now he wants all of the US to share his experience.

Out of curiosity Empress, how many rubles do you get for your posts? Or do they pay you in dollars?
Several posters are already on to me, which is to say, they know that I'm a shill for Russian intelligence, so I might as well come clean and admit that it's true. SMERSH actually, and I'm paid in the local currency, GBP.
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Old 17th November 2019, 02:38 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Wow! Just how many things are wong with this post. To start with. A law enforcement officer DOESN'T have to inform a suspect whether or not they are investigating him even if that suspect is the president?
This is correct. A law enforcement officer is not required to inform a suspect that he is under criminal investigation. The best course of action would be not to say anything. The point is that James Comey DID say to Trump that he was NOT under investigation. Once he makes a declarative statement on the matter it becomes relevant.


Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
And it was well known that the FBI and the CIA had been investigating Russian involvement in our elections before the election. If the President did nothing wrong and the press was wrongly reporting he was being investigated, you would think he'd rather a full investigation and having the FBI announced that he had nothing to do with it.
Yes, Crossfire Hurricane started officially on July 31st, 2016. It was a counterintelligence investigation, not a criminal one. The media was reporting that the FBI was investigating Trump, while he received assurances from Comey that he was not under investigation. If there were leaks from the FBI to the press that were false then it would be the responsibility of the FBI director to clear that up, not the President. Why couldn't Comey just announce publicly that these media reports were false and the President is not under investigation? It was the Mueller investigation that corrected Buzzfeed's erroneous report indicating that Trump had instructed Michael Cohen to lie. If there were false reports indicating that Trump was under investigation, Comey should have corrected those. He didn't

ps. And the investigation did go forward. Mueller and his team spent almost two years investigating every part of Trump's campaign and came up with a big fat zero.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Also, Mueller did not find there was no collusion, only that he couldn't prove that there was. Huge difference. As for Page and Strozk, what makes you think a law enforcement officer can't dislike a suspect and still follow the evidence and the law?
You only need probable cause to indict. You need 'beyond a reasonable doubt' to convict. No one on Trump's team was even indicted for collusion.

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Funny how you ignore this very, very important thing, which gets right to the heart of the issues at hand. Schiff made it perfectly clear that he fully intended to abide by the law and work with law enforcement to make sure everything done would abide by the law. Trump made it fully clear that he had no intention of abiding by the law or working with law enforcement and, in fact, didn't abide by it?
Let's get one thing out of the way up front. It is not illegal to get dirt from foreign sources on your political opponent. It is only illegal if you are involved in a criminal conspiracy of some kind.(i.e You assist in the hacking of information.) That is why this entire conversation is ridiculous. The Left wants to give the impression that getting dirt from foreign sources is criminal or an impeachable offensive, but only when Republicans do it. When Democrats do it, it is perfectly fine.

If Don Jr had received dirt on Hillary from Russian sources then decided to approach the FBI their response would have been, "Now we have proof you were colluding with the Russians. It is jail time for Don Jr!"

The FBI were co-conspirators in a plot to spy-on and then launch a coup to overthrow the Trump presidency. The FBI was not to be trusted.


Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
LOL! Perhaps you don't realize how utterly stupid this attempt at an argument is? Even before we get to the obvious cherry-picking, you're trying to claim that the personal opinion of two individuals is proof of professional misconduct by an entire agency. Professional misconduct that's in the exact opposite direction as the misconduct by the FBI that actually happened in reality?

Page: God trump is a loathsome human.
Strzok: Omg an idiot
Page: He's awful
Strzok: God Hillary should win 100,000,000 - 0

Page: “He's not ever going to become president, right? Right?!”
Strzok: “No. No he won’t. We’ll stop it.”

Page: “There is no way he gets elected.”
Strzok: "I want to believe the path you threw out for consideration in Andy's office that there's no way he gets elected — but I'm afraid we can't take that risk. It's like an insurance policy in the unlikely event you die before you're 40…."

An insurance policy does not prevent a disaster from occurring. It is a hedge in case a disaster does happen. The disaster, of course, to Strzok and Page was Trump being elected President. Then on election day the paramours went completely off the rails.

Strzok: Omg this is ******ng terrifying
Page: Figure I need to brush up on Watergate.

Why does Lisa Page need to brush up on Watergate unless she is looking for a way to impeach a duly elected President that she hates? They could call upon the "insurance policy" to hamstring the President or launch a coup to overthrow his Presidency. This is what happened.

p.s. The fact the FBI signed off on the FISA application for Carter Page is evidence of endemic corruption.

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Ahh, the joys of Republican projection, where the weak on crime Democrats actually want a police state to attack their political enemies. Never mind that the Republicans are the ones that have been pushing police state policies and have been openly doing their best to use the judicial system to attack their enemies for brazenly political purposes.
See Anarcho-tyranny.

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
@tanabear Your continuing evasion of this question leaves me to assume that even if Barr fails to deliver proof of the things you claim, that won't deter you. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong.
What was the origin of the FBI's Crossfire Hurricane investigation? Was it the Steele dossier or George Papadopoulos's meeting with Joseph Mifsud? Currently, the latter story is the official one. So if they determine that Joseph Mifsud is really a Russian agent privy to the goings on of Russian intelligence, then yes, I will reevaluate. But I want answers on international man of mystery Mifsud.
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Old 17th November 2019, 02:48 PM   #227
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
This shouldn't surprise you by now. Every single one of his posts here is disinformation. I can only surmise that it's deliberate, but I don't know who the audience is supposed to be.
There is propaganda value in making lies more well known, in and of itself. Propaganda is useless if not spread.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Nothing since Trump became President surprises me any more. It has been one long parade of people parroting the lies that Trump and right wingers peddle.
Only since Trump?
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Old 17th November 2019, 04:17 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
There is propaganda value in making lies more well known, in and of itself. Propaganda is useless if not spread.

Only since Trump?
Let's just say, Trump's unabashed dishonesty takes it to a whole other level.
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Old 17th November 2019, 05:39 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Let's just say, Trump's unabashed dishonesty takes it to a whole other level.

If it were only Trump I might feel a tiny bit better about it, but the near unanimity with which the GOP leaders as well as theirrank and file, Trump supporters in general, and the media outlets hitched to his wagon repeat, expand upon, and fabricate even wilder lies on his behalf is something which might transcend traditional pols lying to the public.
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Old 17th November 2019, 06:04 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
If it were only Trump I might feel a tiny bit better about it, but the near unanimity with which the GOP leaders as well as theirrank and file, Trump supporters in general, and the media outlets hitched to his wagon repeat, expand upon, and fabricate even wilder lies on his behalf is something which might transcend traditional pols lying to the public.
You see, that's not exactly true. There have been lots of GOP leaders say almost nothing and have quit the party as well as basically just quit. Trump has a core of supporters that are probably never going to abandon him. But I am convinced he's lost more than enough support to make what for other politicians would be an easy reelection into a GOP wipeout.
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Old 17th November 2019, 07:54 PM   #231
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The ability of Trump's Little helpers to repeatedly gish-gallop screeds of total bollocks they have gleaned from their right wing echo chambers, is truly astounding.
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Old 17th November 2019, 10:59 PM   #232
Aridas
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Let's get one thing out of the way up front. It is not illegal to get dirt from foreign sources on your political opponent. It is only illegal if you are involved in a criminal conspiracy of some kind.(i.e You assist in the hacking of information.) That is why this entire conversation is ridiculous.
Perhaps think back to the actual points made about what what actually wrong? For example, Trump repeatedly tried to obtain illegally obtained materials from the Russian government and outright asked the Russians to commit crimes to aid him on national television (and made it perfectly clear that he wasn't joking about that when interviewed right after). Crimes that they immediately started trying to do. The main ridiculous thing about this conversation is the caricature of the problems identified that the GOP has been pushing as their propagandists have gone all in with a strategy of lying about, distorting, and distracting from the actual things of importance.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
The Left wants to give the impression that getting dirt from foreign sources is criminal or an impeachable offensive, but only when Republicans do it. When Democrats do it, it is perfectly fine.
That is a right-wing caricature of the truth. I touched on that a little above, but I'm going to be very clear here. These false equivalences and aspersions preached by the GOP propagandists are BS.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
If Don Jr had received dirt on Hillary from Russian sources then decided to approach the FBI their response would have been, "Now we have proof you were colluding with the Russians. It is jail time for Don Jr!"
That depends on what, exactly, Jr had done with it by then. Still, it's far, far more likely that the FBI would have given him the chance to mitigate/nullify the crime and exonerate himself, given the situation that they'd be facing there, even if they didn't just let him off the hook entirely and work with him to figure out what he was legally allowed to do. That is, of course, assuming that this was after his “If it’s what you say, I love it, especially later in the summer.” The actually appropriate course of action would be to contact the FBI about the offer in the first place and discuss the matter with them. To be quite clear, somewhat similar situations have happened in the past. Gore's campaign, for example, immediately took similar materials to the FBI. In a similar vein, in Georgia 2018, multiple outside parties contacted the campaign of Democrats about serious vulnerabilities in the election infrastructure. Instead of exploiting such to cheat, the Democrats took it to the FBI - and were nonsensically sued by the Georgia Republicans for doing the right thing.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
The FBI were co-conspirators in a plot to spy-on and then launch a coup to overthrow the Trump presidency. The FBI was not to be trusted.
This doesn't pass even basic scrutiny, especially when it comes to basic questions like whether Jr (and Trump and every other one of those involved in the Trump Tower meeting and all the rest of the many connections with the Russians that the Trump campaign lied about repeatedly) would have had any reason to believe that the FBI wasn't to be trusted.



Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Page: God trump is a loathsome human.
Strzok: Omg an idiot
Page: He's awful
Strzok: God Hillary should win 100,000,000 - 0

Page: “He's not ever going to become president, right? Right?!”
Strzok: “No. No he won’t. We’ll stop it.”

Page: “There is no way he gets elected.”
Strzok: "I want to believe the path you threw out for consideration in Andy's office that there's no way he gets elected — but I'm afraid we can't take that risk. It's like an insurance policy in the unlikely event you die before you're 40…."

An insurance policy does not prevent a disaster from occurring. It is a hedge in case a disaster does happen. The disaster, of course, to Strzok and Page was Trump being elected President. Then on election day the paramours went completely off the rails.
Again, you're not addressing the points actually made. You're just adding more cherry-picked material that you think supports your narrative.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Strzok: Omg this is ******ng terrifying
Page: Figure I need to brush up on Watergate.

Why does Lisa Page need to brush up on Watergate unless she is looking for a way to impeach a duly elected President that she hates? They could call upon the "insurance policy" to hamstring the President or launch a coup to overthrow his Presidency. This is what happened.
Alternately, one could take a peek at Trump's long list of times when he has been documented to have broken the law, was continuing to break the law, his relationships with organized crime, and his demonstrated personality (I could go on, but any single one of those would be serious cause for concern, let alone all of them at once) and figure out the obvious truth that it was virtually certain that he would be committing crimes, some of which would be quite serious, while in office. Which, indeed, he has been, to virtually no one's surprise.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
p.s. The fact the FBI signed off on the FISA application for Carter Page is evidence of endemic corruption.
No. It's really not, regardless of how much the GOP propagandists try to distort the picture and use it as a distraction. There are legitimate concerns to be raised when it comes to FISA in general, perhaps, but that the FBI signed off on the application for Carter Page is not one of them.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
See Anarcho-tyranny.
Do you actually believe that Democrats support anarcho-tyranny?

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
What was the origin of the FBI's Crossfire Hurricane investigation? Was it the Steele dossier or George Papadopoulos's meeting with Joseph Mifsud? Currently, the latter story is the official one. So if they determine that Joseph Mifsud is really a Russian agent privy to the goings on of Russian intelligence, then yes, I will reevaluate. But I want answers on international man of mystery Mifsud.
I'm generally a bit wary of citing the Daily Beast, but... here's a rather well-sourced article on Mifsud and his relations to Russia that you may find to be of some limited interest.

Still, it's likely worth pointing out, yet again, that for the purposes here, whether Mifsud is or is not actually a Russian agent is a red herring. Rather, the question is whether the FBI had legitimate cause to investigate at all, given that they're not omniscient. With that said, signs point very, very firmly to them having legitimate cause.
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Old 17th November 2019, 11:26 PM   #233
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What Republicans don't seem to get is that the risk to US democracy brought on by solicited interference by foreign actors is less about the wrong side being elected and more about having a government beholden to foreign interests.
Because Trump won in 2016 with help from Russia, he is constrained to act in the US national interest when it comes to Putin.
The Trump Campaign should just have paid the Internet Research Agency for its work.
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Old 17th November 2019, 11:54 PM   #234
Aridas
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
What Republicans don't seem to get is that the risk to US democracy brought on by solicited interference by foreign actors is less about the wrong side being elected and more about having a government beholden to foreign interests.
Because Trump won in 2016 with help from Russia, he is constrained to act in the US national interest when it comes to Putin.
The Trump Campaign should just have paid the Internet Research Agency for its work.
Going by the evidence, he is not constrained to do so. That's merely an expectation about how a President should act, one that Trump's repeatedly betrayed.
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Old 18th November 2019, 07:40 AM   #235
varwoche
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
This doesn't pass even basic scrutiny...
Well, when someone stakes out a fact-free claim such as...
Originally Posted by tanabear, hilite added
Yes, the Trump-Russia collusion conspiracy theory was entirely a western media and western intelligence generated PYSOPS campaign against the American people; not a single bit of it was ever true.
  • As if the Trump Tower meeting didn't take place.
  • As if Trump didn't lie about said meeting.
  • As if Trump's team didn't lie about their extensive Russian contacts.
  • As if magic fairies engineered the pro Russia change to the GOP plank.
  • As if Trump's campaign manager wasn't in jail for his corrupt actions linked to Russian interests.
  • As if Trump's intermediary to wikileaks, the illustrious Roger Stone, wasn't convicted last week for lying to cover up for Trump.
  • As if Trump didn't publicly encourage Russia, and as if Russia didn't hop on it right away
  • As if Trump didn't metaphorically teabag Putin in public
  • As if Trump doesn't support Russian interests over US/NATO interests at every opportunity

i could go on at great length. But alas "not a single bit was ever true".

I have no choice but to sigh and move on when I encounter this impressive degree of fact-freedom. It's not as if a better presentation will make a whit of difference.
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Old 18th November 2019, 08:38 AM   #236
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Not to mention...

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Old 18th November 2019, 11:23 AM   #237
quadraginta
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
If it were only Trump I might feel a tiny bit better about it, but the near unanimity with which the GOP leaders as well as theirrank and file, Trump supporters in general, and the media outlets hitched to his wagon repeat, expand upon, and fabricate even wilder lies on his behalf is something which might transcend traditional pols lying to the public.
You see, that's not exactly true. There have been lots of GOP leaders say almost nothing and have quit the party as well as basically just quit.

<snip>

Express this as a percentage of GOP leaders, and then relate it to the highlighted word in my post.

Sure, there are some GOP leaders who have recognized that they will probably get primaried as a penalty for a less-than-fulsome support of Trump, and even a few who are just too tired of the farce to continue to perpetuate it. Perhaps a vanishingly small number (by comparison to the total) who are sincerely disgusted with their party.

But all of those combined still do not make a significant impact on the near unanimity I mentioned.
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Old 18th November 2019, 11:27 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Why does Lisa Page need to brush up on Watergate unless she is looking for a way to impeach a duly elected President that she hates?
Because all Presidents are duly elected, and hated, and if you're going to impeach one, you might learn a lesson or two from Watergate.

What a stupid question.
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Old 18th November 2019, 11:35 AM   #239
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Express this as a percentage of GOP leaders, and then relate it to the highlighted word in my post.

Sure, there are some GOP leaders who have recognized that they will probably get primaried as a penalty for a less-than-fulsome support of Trump, and even a few who are just too tired of the farce to continue to perpetuate it. Perhaps a vanishingly small number (by comparison to the total) who are sincerely disgusted with their party.

But all of those combined still do not make a significant impact on the near unanimity I mentioned.
Of course it does. This is one of those half truths or is really a big lie. Trump has unanimity.

Of those left.
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Old 18th November 2019, 12:12 PM   #240
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Not sure if this should go here or under the 'impeachment inquiry' thread, since it may become part of the articles of impeachment...

From: https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/18/polit...ler/index.html
The House of Representatives is now investigating whether President Donald Trump lied to special counsel Robert Mueller in written answers...Rick Gates testified that Trump and Stone talked about information that was coming that could help the campaign in mid-2016...Former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort also apparently told the Mueller grand jury what Trump's approach to WikiLeaks had been in 2016, according to the Mueller report. But Trump told Mueller in his written statements he didn't recall discussing WikiLeaks with Stone.

Now, its not that surprising that Trump would be accused of lying over the issue. (Even Mueller himself suggested Trump was "imprecise".. It is new for the house to actually engage in any sort of investigation.
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