ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , Mueller investigation , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , William Barr

Reply
Old 18th November 2019, 02:21 PM   #241
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 17,691
The Roger Stone – Wikileaks – Russia Hoax

Originally Posted by Craig Murray
As ever, the Guardian wins the prize for the most tendentious reporting of Roger Stone’s conviction. This is not quite on the scale of its massive front page lie that Paul Manafort visited Julian Assange in the Ecuadorean Embassy. But it is a lie with precisely the same intent, to deceive the public into believing there were links between Wikileaks and the Trump campaign. There were no such links. [...]

Must read, Black Knights.
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2019, 08:01 PM   #242
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 41,363
Excellent article by The Guardian. Thanks.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
“Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 03:25 AM   #243
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Black knight? You do realise that Stone was found guilty, right? Doesn't the black knight lose?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 05:42 AM   #244
W.D.Clinger
Illuminator
 
W.D.Clinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,631
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Black knight? You do realise that Stone was found guilty, right? Doesn't the black knight lose?
People often promote their role models, regardless of whether their role models model the role that's relevant in context.
W.D.Clinger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 05:46 AM   #245
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 30,314
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Black knight? You do realise that Stone was found guilty, right? Doesn't the black knight lose?
Nope. Just a flesh wound....
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 06:32 AM   #246
Armitage72
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,580
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Black knight? You do realise that Stone was found guilty, right? Doesn't the black knight lose?

In literature, a black knight conceals their heraldry (identity) to perform misdeeds while being protected by their anonymity.
Armitage72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2019, 03:03 PM   #247
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 77,115
Here's the latest big new lie to pay attention to.

Trump is still trying to sell the lie that the whole Mueller investigation was a witch hunt, (never mind the convictions and guilty pleas). So he has directed his minion, Barr, to investigate the initial FISA warrant to spy on Carter Page.

So it has been leaked? announced? to the press that the investigation has uncovered some supposed altered document by an FBI agent that was submitted to the court for the FISA warrant. Oooouuu, the smoking gun!

But oddly enough this leak/announcement was tossed out there to simmer with the implication it is some big important thing (even though it has already been suggested the alteration was insignificant). The actual mystery of what this is won't be released until Dec 9th.

The Hill (which I have lost confidence in, sorry for using their summary).
Quote:
An FBI official is being investigated after allegedly altering a document connected to surveillance of a 2016 Trump campaign aide, CNN reported Thursday, citing people briefed on the matter.

The alleged altering was reportedly discovered as part of Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz's probe into whether the FBI followed the law and its own policies while applying for a warrant to surveil a former Trump campaign official Carter Page during the 2016 election.

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) said this week that a report of Horowitz's findings was expected to be released Dec. 9.
Fox is playing this up, of course.

NYPost Washington Post quietly changes story on altered Russia probe document
I can't find the WA Po article but a lot of people don't have access to it anyway.
Quote:
The Washington Post deleted a key detail from its reporting about the FBI lawyer accused of altering a document related to the surveillance of a former Trump campaign adviser, according to a new report.

The newspaper nixed a portion of its story that identified the lawyer as an FBI employee underneath Peter Strzok, the ousted FBI agent who worked on the feds’ investigation into Russian election meddling, Fox News reported.

The update was made just after midnight Friday without explanation.

The lawyer in question is accused of fudging the document related to the FBI’s Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court warrant application to surveil Carter Page in 2016.

The altered paperwork, however, did not change the validity of the warrant, according to the Washington Post. Two officials told the newspaper that the lawyer was forced out over the incident.

So what do you do with a smoking gun that isn't really smoking? You hint and tease that you found this incriminating thing for ~3 weeks so that is sinks in that the FISA warrant was obtained using fraudulent information. And once that sinks into the subconscious of the believers, you release the actual detail that said finding was a 'nothing burger' at a time when, in a few months people will forget that part and only remember the claim something fraudulent was found.

NPR: Initial beliefs are hard to dislodge.

And yes, GOP marketers are well aware of this. Trump has people working for him that are also aware.
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2019, 05:09 PM   #248
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,281
Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
In literature, a black knight conceals their heraldry (identity) to perform misdeeds while being protected by their anonymity.
Yeah, but Empress has the Monty Python and the Holy Grail Black Knight in mind.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2019, 05:16 PM   #249
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,083
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So what do you do with a smoking gun that isn't really smoking?

The reason why the gun isn't smoking is that it's a water pistol.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...mments-wrapper


As expected, Horowitz found some minor errors but nothing that invalidates any of the FBI's actions.
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan


TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2019, 09:11 PM   #250
Bogative
Graduate Poster
 
Bogative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,251
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Here's the latest big new lie to pay attention to.

Trump is still trying to sell the lie that the whole Mueller investigation was a witch hunt, (never mind the convictions and guilty pleas). So he has directed his minion, Barr, to investigate the initial FISA warrant to spy on Carter Page.

Your TDS is preventing you from understanding simple facts. The FISA investigation started 11 months before Barr was sworn in.
Bogative is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2019, 09:15 PM   #251
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 77,115
Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
The reason why the gun isn't smoking is that it's a water pistol.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...mments-wrapper


As expected, Horowitz found some minor errors but nothing that invalidates any of the FBI's actions.
Shhh, that's not supposed to come out until Dec 9th after the rumor part becomes fact.
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2019, 09:17 PM   #252
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 77,115
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Your TDS is preventing you from understanding simple facts. The FISA investigation started 11 months before Barr was sworn in.
Something tells me you need catching up on current events.
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2019, 11:37 PM   #253
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,708
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Something tells me you need catching up on current events.
The technical point that the IG review of the FISA warrant began in March 2018 is correct.

Barr opened an inquiry (now technically a "criminal probe") into the SC Russia investigation in May 2019, headed by John Durham.

It should be noted, however, Bogative's technicality completely misses the overall thrust of your point. Nor is it remotely appropriate to leap to the conclusion that you made the error do to some kind of derangement. It's just a slightly different way of parroting the claim that everyone who doesn't like Trump is "biased." Totally unoriginal.

The entire gambit echoes the exact situation in front of us. One lawyer fudging some records doesn't invalidate the warrant, nor does mixing up which specific investigation it was Barr initiated therefore invalidate the claim that Barr has enacted an "investigate the investigators" strategy.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd December 2019, 05:30 PM   #254
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 25,291
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
... It was an "insurance policy" to be used in the unlikely event of a Trump victory. Trump did win and they used this "insurance policy" to launch a coup to overthrow his Presidency. ...?
that is funny stuff, what was the "ip", and how did "they" get clownstick to act like an idiot, obstruct justice, incite violence, and bribe a country?

https://i.imgflip.com/2z6m9u.jpg Idiot

https://i.imgflip.com/2l4e1n.jpg Hate

https://i.imgflip.com/3i74oh.jpg
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 12:17 PM   #255
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,930
The DoJ Inspector General's report is out - it comprehensively and definitively shoots down any idea of a Deep State conspiracy theory to spy on the Trump campaign.
1. The decision to open the Crossfire Hurricane investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 Presidential election was correctly and properly opened, predicated on actual evidence that a foreign power, namely Russia, was influencing the Trump campaign, and was attempting to interfere 2016 election.

2. The decision to open the investigations into George Papadopoulos, Carter Page, Paul Manafort and Michael Flynn were correctly and properly opened, predicated on actual evidence of wrongdoing.

3. The investigations were opened because of a tip from a foreign country, namely Australia. The Steele Dossier had nothing whatsoever to do with the opening of any investigations.

4. There was no evidence, either in documentation, or testimony, that any of the investigations were influenced by political bias on the part of anyone involved in the investigations.
Its a slam dunk, but of course, Trump's DoJ stooge Bill Barr will reject it because it doesn't say what he wanted it it say. Expect another investigation to be started soon. I expect he will keep doing this until he either gets what he wants or runs out of time.

tanabear's pet theory that the investigations were some sort of "insurance policy" is hurtling to the ground in flames - its bollocks, and it always was bollocks.

Full report here: https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.c...43c0f61194.pdf

Read it and weep Trump Trash!


ETA: Here is a brief video in which former DEA Administrator Chuck Rosenburg discusses the FBI guidelines for beginning an investigation
(The whole video is 7:28, Rosenburg begins at 5:25

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/ag-...be-74782789550
__________________
"You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

Last edited by smartcooky; 9th December 2019 at 12:31 PM.
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 12:24 PM   #256
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The DoJ Inspector General's report is out - it comprehensively and definitively shoots down any idea of a Deep State conspiracy theory to spy on the Trump campaign.
It must really be embarrassing when autocrats can't even get their underlings to get them the results they ask for.

Quote:
Its a slam dunk, but of course, Trump's DoJ stooge Bill Barr will reject it because it doesn't say what he wanted it it say. Expect another investigation to be started soon.
Which makes Trump's complaints that the Democrats are engaged in a pointless witch hunt* and that they should focus on getting the job done quite ironic.

* : A witch hunt that has caught several witches, and which doesn't even fit the definition of a witch hint in the first place.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 12:26 PM   #257
Stacyhs
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 9,914
You can expect Trump supporters to continue claiming Trump's campaign was spied on regardless of the report's findings. Trump will never acknowledge the report's findings as accurate. It would not be surprising if he now begins to claim the IG investigation was biased and fixed.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 12:33 PM   #258
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,708
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The DoJ Inspector General's report is out - it comprehensively and definitively shoots down any idea of a Deep State conspiracy theory to spy on the Trump campaign.


1. The decision to open the Crossfire Hurricane investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 Presidential election was correctly and properly opened, predicated on actual evidence that a foreign power, namely Russia, was influencing the Trump campaign, and was attempting to interfere 2016 election.



2. The decision to open the investigations into George Papadopoulos, Carter Page, Paul Manafort and Michael Flynn were correctly and properly opened, predicated on actual evidence of wrongdoing.



3. The investigations were opened because of a tip from a foreign country, namely Australia. The Steele Dossier had nothing whatsoever to do with the opening of any investigations.



4. There was no evidence, either in documentation, or testimony, that any of the investigations were influenced by political bias on the part of anyone involved in the investigations.


Its a slam dunk, but of course, Trump's DoJ stooge Bill Barr will reject it because it doesn't say what he wanted it it say. Expect another investigation to be started soon. I expect he will keep doing this until he either gets what he wants or runs out of time.



tanabear's pet theory that the investigations were some sort of "insurance policy" is hurtling to the ground in flames - its bollocks, and it always was bollocks.



Full report here: https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.c...43c0f61194.pdf



Read it and weep Trump Trash!
That "other investigation" already started and is being run by John Durham. Signals seen in drafts of the IG report and anonymous comments indicate that in responses to IG inquiries, he provided no evidence supporting any of the "insurance policy" nonsense. Where his beliefs lay is anyone's guess, but even Barr's hand-picked investigator seems to not be pushing the narrative they want.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 12:35 PM   #259
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 10,301
Barr is lying is bare ass off in his statement about the IG report.
This is completely unprecedented.

The only possible explanation at this point is that Trump has some Kompromat on him involving waterfowl and cream cheese.
__________________
“Impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”-Sen. Lindsey Graham
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 12:36 PM   #260
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,708
Barr's statement:

Quote:
The Inspector General's report now makes clear that the FBI launched an intrusive investigation of a U.S. presidential campaign on the thinnest of suspicions that, in my view, were insufficient to justify the steps taken.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 12:36 PM   #261
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,930
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You can expect Trump supporters to continue claiming Trump's campaign was spied on regardless of the report's findings. Trump will never acknowledge the report's findings as accurate. It would not be surprising if he now begins to claim the IG investigation was biased and fixed.
...and the IG declared to be a "never Trumper".
__________________
"You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 12:38 PM   #262
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Barr's statement:
It's time to realise that facts don't matter. Not figuratively, but literally.

This is like when the Mueller report painted a damning picture of the Trump campaign and administration, and Trump said it complely exonerated him, or when he keeps telling us to read the transcript that shows that he extorted another country for political dirt.

It doesn't matter anymore. We've moved beyond facts into a new realm of chaos.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 12:40 PM   #263
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,219
What Belz said.

All source of facts have been destroyed, dismissable as bias or fake news.

All forms of argumentatives have been destroyed, trolling has been perfected to the point that it can shut down any argument it wants.

It is impossible to present information or share it or to argue for it. The tiny fringe of reality deniers that used to live on the margins are now in the center.

We are in a post-truth world.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 12:43 PM   #264
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 10,301
It is a Constitutional Crisis when the AG lies about the work of the FBI on a critical case with overwhelmingly evidence to the contrary.
__________________
“Impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”-Sen. Lindsey Graham
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 12:55 PM   #265
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,219
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It is a Constitutional Crisis when the AG lies about the work of the FBI on a critical case with overwhelmingly evidence to the contrary.
Trump causes 37 Constitutional Crisis before breakfast.

Again... you can't have lies in a world without facts.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 01:07 PM   #266
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We are in a post-truth world.
Post-fact. People are free to choose their truth. It is, in fact, truth that has killed fact.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 04:02 PM   #267
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,708
Despite what I said just hours ago, looks like Durham is now walking point.

Quote:
Our investigation has included developing information from other persons and entities, both in the U.S. and outside of the U.S. Based on the evidence collected to date, and while our investigation is ongoing, last month we advised the Inspector General that we do not agree with some of the report’s conclusions as to predication and how the FBI case was opened.
Again, he did not support this contention by sharing any of the evidence he claims to have with the IG.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 9th December 2019 at 04:05 PM.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 05:12 PM   #268
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 19,091
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Post-fact. People are free to choose their truth. It is, in fact, truth that has killed fact.
I would call it Truthism rather than Truth.

We are now in a world where nothing we are told can be believed, it is almost impossible without knowing primary sources if what you are being told about is real or not.

JayUtah stated in my signature that It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality, but we are all fast getting there, where reality and truth will be nothing more that what we choose to believe from whom we choose to believe it, and no one's truth and reality will be allowed to be any more real than anyone else's chosen truth and reality.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)


Last edited by PhantomWolf; 9th December 2019 at 05:13 PM.
PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 06:35 PM   #269
Stacyhs
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 9,914
Sadly, Trump supporters will believe Barr and Trump over the actual IG report. They'll believe this:

Quote:
White House Press Secretary Stephanie Grisham said in a statement: "The shocking report from the DOJ Inspector General shows an out-of-control FBI under President Obama and former Director Jim Comey."

President Trump, meanwhile, called the FBI's conduct "a disgrace" and said it was "far worse than ever thought possible."
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fis...e-surveillance

Lindsey Graham is also maintaining his position as a Trump brown noser:

Quote:
Graham started the presser by arguing that “the point I want to make is: let’s assume for a moment it started out OK, it sure as hell didn’t end OK.”

Despite acknowledging that “there may be reasonable differences about whether there was a lawful predicate,” Graham said that “not only did the system got off the rails” but in his view became a “criminal enterprise.”
Quote:
“Not only did the system go off the rails, but in my view became a criminal enterprise to defraud the FISA court, to deny American citizen Carter Page’s constitutional rights and to continue an operation against President Trump — as President of the United States — that I think was fundamentally flawed and unlawful,” Graham said, before saying that “these are statements I don’t make lightly” and are “based on the findings of the report.”
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/g...-doj-ig-report

What a putz.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 06:47 PM   #270
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 23,945
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Sadly, Trump supporters will believe Barr and Trump over the actual IG report. They'll believe this:


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fis...e-surveillance

Lindsey Graham is also maintaining his position as a Trump brown noser:



https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/g...-doj-ig-report

What a putz.
Graham has long been rumored to be gay. I wonder if the Russkies have provided Trump with some evidence. [/conspiracy theory]
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 06:53 PM   #271
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,930
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Graham has long been rumored to be gay. I wonder if the Russkies have provided Trump with some evidence. [/conspiracy theory]
It would not surprise me if Trump had something over a lot of those who fawn over him in Congress (Nunes, Gaetz, Meadows etc). It would certainly go a long way to explaining some of their perfidy
__________________
"You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 07:00 PM   #272
Stacyhs
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 9,914
I couldn't care less of Graham is gay or not. Irrelevant to me...but to his Southern Baptist constituents, it would matter.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 9th December 2019 at 07:14 PM.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 07:05 PM   #273
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 46,270
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It would not surprise me if Trump had something over a lot of those who fawn over him in Congress (Nunes, Gaetz, Meadows etc). It would certainly go a long way to explaining some of their perfidy
Its more fear of being "Primaried" and losing their seats then anything else.
In the US rank and file party members vote directly for who is to be their party's candidate;it's not like in the UK where party officals really have the power to decide who is running.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.

Last edited by dudalb; 9th December 2019 at 07:06 PM.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 08:32 PM   #274
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 24,439
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I couldn't care less of Graham is gay or not. Irrelevant to me...but to his Southern Baptist constituents, it would matter.

Nah.

He'd just beg forgiveness. Claim he found Jesus again. Mebbe go to a pray-the-gay-away re-education camp for a month. Somewhere with Jacuzzis and wet bars in the en suite private cabins, probably.

All forgiven and forgotten.

The only unforgivable transgressions are to be a Democrat and/or say something disparaging about Trump.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 09:10 PM   #275
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 10,301
Accusing the FBI of anti-Trump bias might be less about 2016 and more about ongoing and future Investigations into Trump.
__________________
“Impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”-Sen. Lindsey Graham
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 09:16 PM   #276
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 77,115
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It would not surprise me if Trump had something over a lot of those who fawn over him in Congress (Nunes, Gaetz, Meadows etc). It would certainly go a long way to explaining some of their perfidy
Maybe a few people, like he knows the Russians donated to McConnell's campaigns.

But Nunes and Gaetz are definitely groupies.
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2019, 09:18 PM   #277
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 77,115
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Nah.

He'd just beg forgiveness. Claim he found Jesus again. Mebbe go to a pray-the-gay-away re-education camp for a month. Somewhere with Jacuzzis and wet bars in the en suite private cabins, probably..
This is alt-right Trumpies we are talking about here, he'd simply deny, deep fake videos or whatever. Real reality is not a requirement.
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2019, 05:59 AM   #278
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I would call it Truthism rather than Truth.

We are now in a world where nothing we are told can be believed, it is almost impossible without knowing primary sources if what you are being told about is real or not.

JayUtah stated in my signature that It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality, but we are all fast getting there, where reality and truth will be nothing more that what we choose to believe from whom we choose to believe it, and no one's truth and reality will be allowed to be any more real than anyone else's chosen truth and reality.
The above is exactly what I meant by "truth".
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2019, 01:48 AM   #279
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 26,113
Carter Page was offered money not to cooperate with authorities
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2019, 02:09 AM   #280
Stacyhs
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 9,914
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I think the burning question here is "by whom?"
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:08 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.