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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 4th November 2019, 11:23 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trump doesn't think written answers are acceptable?

So why didn't he give Mueller a proper interview?
I had the same thought.
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Old 4th November 2019, 11:28 AM   #162
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https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...p-goes/600736/

An interesting article, possibly fanciful, but with Trump you never know.

I especially like this bit:

Quote:
Democracy has been sustained less by public opinion than by elite consensus.
I agree.
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Old 4th November 2019, 11:29 AM   #163
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Regardless of how valid Trump's impeachment is (fun fact, it's super valid) the idea that Impeachment is more likely to just be another political tool moving forward isn't insane.

We've had four (as always I include Nixon's "You can't fire me I quit" in there despite it technically bla bla bla) impeachments in this country's 243 year history and if you're 45 or older 3 of them have happened in your lifetime and the last two happened in a 21 year timespan.

That's not a check in the "They aren't getting more common" side of the scoreboard.
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Old 4th November 2019, 11:31 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I guessed that was his intention when he was talking about reading the transcript to the public in a televised "fireside chat". He would read a transcript that only barely resembled the real one, while claiming it was what was actually said.

I was thinking more along the lines of the Saturday Night Live Nixon tape skit. Where they portray Nixon and Dean talking about the hush money as if they were doing a joke tape for kicks.


https://snltranscripts.jt.org/78/78tnixon.phtml
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Old 4th November 2019, 11:31 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Regardless of how valid Trump's impeachment is (fun fact, it's super valid) the idea that Impeachment is more likely to just be another political tool moving forward isn't insane.

We've had four (as always I include Nixon's "You can't fire me I quit" in there despite it technically bla bla bla) impeachments in this country's 243 year history and if you're 45 or younger 3 of them have happened in your lifetime 2 in 21 years.

That's not a check in the "They aren't getting more common" side of the scoreboard.
*older.
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Old 4th November 2019, 11:34 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
*older.
Fixed.
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Old 4th November 2019, 11:35 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Fixed.
Anyway, where do you think that this deepening divide between the two parties/sides began? The civil rights movement? Nixon? Reagan? Clinton? Bush?

It's obviously been always there, even before confederation, but it's gotten worse.
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Old 4th November 2019, 11:40 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Anyway, where do you think that this deepening divide between the two parties/sides began? The civil rights movement? Nixon? Reagan? Clinton? Bush?

It's obviously been always there, even before confederation, but it's gotten worse.
With the unnecessary but still annoyingly needed obvious caveat that things like this almost always never have a single root cause or point in history where they happen and everything you mention is certainly a factor in it, I still pin most of... blame I guess (not exactly the right term but close) on our current situation on how we as a society and government handled the move from an manufacturing/agriculture based society and economy to a tech sector / service job based one.

A lot of people get left behind in a narrative that was all about how things where getting better and now, to paraphrase the Dark Knight Returns, in their desperation turned to man they don't fully understand and unleashed something they never meant to.

But there's also too much pride and stupidity to admit it.

A lot of people felt betrayed by their country and lot of bad people stepped up to fan the fear into flames of hatred, bitterness, and outright "Eff the system, I wanna watch it burn because everyone knows I'm not gonna get mine in the end."
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Old 4th November 2019, 11:41 AM   #169
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And in a bit more economic news:

From: https://markets.businessinsider.com/...-11-1028656446
The Commerce Department said Monday factory goods orders fell 0.6% in September...US manufacturing slipped into a recession this year as an economic standoff between the Trump administration and China piled onto pressure in the sector...
The Commerce Department also said a measure of business investment plans, September shipments of non-defense capital goods, declined 0.6%. That figure was a steeper drop than reported last month and came after a gross domestic product report last week showed business investment fell by the most in more than three years in the third quarter.


It doesn't necessarily mean the economy as a whole will have a recession before the next election, but its certainly not a good sign.
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Old 4th November 2019, 11:44 AM   #170
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Using federal authorities to try to silence critics. I'm sure there's nothing wrong with that. Justice Department targets the anonymous author of an upcoming anti-Trump book.


Quote:
The Justice Department is going on the offensive against the anonymous author of "A Warning," telling them in a letter obtained by CNN Business that he or she may be violating "one or more nondisclosure agreements" by writing the anti-Trump book.
The author's publisher is rejecting the argument and saying the book will be released as scheduled.
And the author's agents are accusing the government of trying to unmask the author.

Wasn't the consensus way back at the start that Trump's anti-leak NDAs were a load of unenforceable rubbish?
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Old 4th November 2019, 11:47 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The worst part of this is, in my opinion, we now have a large group of American citizens who back someone they KNOW is no good but they don't care. Trump HASN'T revived coal mining, he HASN'T brought blue-collar manufacturing jobs back to the USA, he HASN'T unveiled a healthcare system that "covers everybody and is cheaper than Obamacare," he HASN'T crafted a tax plan that favors working-class taxpayers, he HASN'T slowed illegal immigration, he HASN'T even even built the wall. But they don't care because rooting for him feels so good!

I just read a long article about Brexit, where you have the spectacle of working-class people voting for something that they pretty much know isn't going to work very well, at least not for them, but they don't care. Because voting for it feels so good!

Never thought I'd look back at the Cold War era as the good old days.

Well, as one of my coworkers claimed, he knows Trump is a liar and doofus, but he's just so afraid of liberals. He actually claimed that we'd end up like Venezuela if "they" ever take power. The kool aid is so strong with this one that he prefers absolutely anything including a moronically criminal president to that RWM propaganda nightmare scenario.
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Old 4th November 2019, 11:47 AM   #172
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Trump's NDAs have generally been considered to be far more scary than enforceable.
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Old 4th November 2019, 11:48 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Anyway, where do you think that this deepening divide between the two parties/sides began? The civil rights movement? Nixon? Reagan? Clinton? Bush?

It's obviously been always there, even before confederation, but it's gotten worse.
Reagan, IMO.
Beginning of the vilification of the "other side" (and a cementing of the idea of the "other side").
Post WW2 until the Eighties there seems to have been greater cohesion.
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Old 4th November 2019, 11:56 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why do I get the feeling that every President from here on out is going to be impeached as a matter of course?
Well... If the Republicans keep putting forward guys that brazenly break the law when they get someone in office and shamelessly impeach Democrats as a dirty political ploy to shield their guys when their guys commit crimes like crazy, it's not quite too far-fetched. "As a matter of course," though, isn't quite properly descriptive of that.

Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
When talk of impeachment first started, Trump said that if it happened, then in the future every President would face impeachment if their Party didn't control the House. He phrased it as a warning then. It's only more recently that he's turned it into a threat.
"If I get impeached, what's to stop it from happening again?"
vs.
"If I get impeached, we'll do it next."
And it's just as evil and stupid as it was then.

In other things of some interest...

Yovanovitch / McKinley testimony transcripts released by House Intel. - Volker / Sondland tomorrow

Includes easy links to them and pokes at a few things in them.

Federal appeals court rejects Trump's immunity claim, orders tax returns turned over to grand jury

Things are bad when I'm actually letting out a sigh of relief at Judges actually doing their job. Trump will be appealing the unanimous decision against him, of course, by the sound of it, which means that this still isn't over, though.
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Old 4th November 2019, 11:59 AM   #175
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To be blunt, I think it's pretty damn naive to even entertain the idea that next Democrat President isn't going to be at least targeted heavily for impeachment.

Even if they get both the House and the Senate the Dems aren't going to keep it for more then a few election cycles. The Republicans will be back in power in either the House, Senate, or Both before the sting of this goes away and their honor will demand some sort of retaliation. How exactly it will break down; actual impeachment, an impeachment investigation, just a lot of noise calling for it, remains to be seen but it will happen.
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Old 4th November 2019, 12:13 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
To be blunt, I think it's pretty damn naive to even entertain the idea that next Democrat President isn't going to be at least targeted heavily for impeachment.

Even if they get both the House and the Senate the Dems aren't going to keep it for more then a few election cycles. The Republicans will be back in power in either the House, Senate, or Both before the sting of this goes away and their honor will demand some sort of retaliation. How exactly it will break down; actual impeachment, an impeachment investigation, just a lot of noise calling for it, remains to be seen but it will happen.
Yep there is simply no way any republican could ever see Trump as blatantly corrupt. He is the new normal for all republican politicians.
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Old 4th November 2019, 12:18 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Then it's not impenetrable- simple as that. It's not even "very powerful" if all it takes to get through it is a saw.

...
Clearly, a more veraly powerful saw.
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Old 4th November 2019, 12:26 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trump's NDAs have generally been considered to be far more scary than enforceable.
If they even could out the anonymous person, it's a win for them.
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Old 4th November 2019, 12:29 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
....

Things are bad when I'm actually letting out a sigh of relief at Judges actually doing their job. Trump will be appealing the unanimous decision against him, of course, by the sound of it, which means that this still isn't over, though.
While Trump and the Republican senate may have put many judges in power, or just more power, I don't think they'd be dimwitted enough to then basically just adjudicate against their own power. Including over him and them (senate Republications).
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Old 4th November 2019, 12:31 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
While Trump and the Republican senate may have put many judges in power, or just more power, I don't think they'd be dimwitted enough to then basically just adjudicate against their own power. Including over him and them (senate Republications).
Like court orders matter anymore. They will just ignore them and face no consequence like beloved Sheriff Joe. The courts have been put in their place and need to learn that.
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Old 4th November 2019, 12:33 PM   #181
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Missouri Official Admits to Tracking Women’s Periods

Quote:
During the second day of a weeklong state hearing that will decide whether Missouri’s last abortion clinic will be shut down, the state’s heath director, Dr. Randall Williams, admitted to keeping a spreadsheet that tracked the menstrual periods of its patients. According to the Kansas City Star, Williams said he had requested that the state’s primary investigator identify patients who had undergone “failed abortions” at the St. Louis Planned Parenthood facility.
I'm not sure what to say beyond... This is a red flag.
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Old 4th November 2019, 12:41 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Missouri Official Admits to Tracking Women’s Periods



I'm not sure what to say beyond... This is a red flag.
Heh. "Red flag".
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Old 4th November 2019, 12:43 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
While Trump and the Republican senate may have put many judges in power, or just more power, I don't think they'd be dimwitted enough to then basically just adjudicate against their own power. Including over him and them (senate Republications).
Going further than that... The argument is farcical and no honest person should allow it to stand for a myriad of reasons, not least because if it were to be substantiated, Trump would have an easy shortcut to dictatorship. That takes us back to the fact that the Federalist Society (and much of the rest of the far right) can't be trusted to select honest people who are actually working for the good of the country and that their decades long campaign has been all too effective, especially in recent years, and that the far right has already managed to pretty much blind-side and undermine a bunch of things.
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Old 4th November 2019, 12:52 PM   #184
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Republicans will only impeach a Democrats' President if they think it will help them win the next election.
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Old 4th November 2019, 12:54 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Republicans will only impeach a Democrats' President if they think it will help them win the next election.
I reckon they could just do it out of spite....
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Old 4th November 2019, 12:57 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I reckon they could just do it out of spite....
they could ... but they won't.
Spite isn't more important than power.
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Old 4th November 2019, 01:02 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Republicans will only impeach a Democrats' President if they think it will help them win the next election.
Yeah and "Elect us to watch us troll the Demmiecrats while the country goes down the crapper" is probably on the letterhead at GOP Headquarters.

Again there is a sizable part, not all, probably not most, maybe not even many but enough to be a factor, of the Republican Base that has given up on things ever getting their version of "better" and just want to watch it burn.
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Old 4th November 2019, 01:15 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
...

This involves the Daily Mail, even if the Daily Mail is taking the story from another publication that I've never heard of, so it probably shouldn't be believed immediately, but... it would help explain what happened surprisingly well, if true.

REPORT: Kushner OK'd Khashoggi Arrest, Turkey Heard Call & Blackmailed Trump over Syrian Troops


Bring on the tapes that Mulvaney spoke of! If this actually isn't true, they'd disprove it, right?
Even if it's a fake story, bring it on, turnabout is fair play.
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Old 4th November 2019, 01:20 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

False stories are being reported that a few Republican Senators are saying that President Trump may have done a quid pro quo, but it doesn’t matter, there is nothing wrong with that, it is not an impeachable event. Perhaps so, but read the transcript, there is no quid pro quo!
I didn't do it, but if I did it wasn't illegal.

Now where have we heard that before?
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Old 4th November 2019, 01:40 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
... if you're 45 or older 3 of them have happened in your lifetime and the last two happened in a 21 year timespan.

That's not a check in the "They aren't getting more common" side of the scoreboard.
True, but all three in my lifetime were based on credible evidence of crime. Nixon and Trump, obviously. I did not support Clinton's impeachment and maintain today that it was a political hack job, but... once it was clear he had lied in deposition, I changed my tune to "Okay, impeach the sleazebag and let's get to the bottom of this."

I am not worried about impeachment happening to every president from here on out, if that's what it takes to get rid of the corruption in our politics.
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Old 4th November 2019, 01:55 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Republicans will only impeach a Democrats' President if they think it will help them win the next election.
That wasn't the case with Nixon. Republicans seem to have lost both their courage and their loyalty to their nation in the intervening years.
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Old 4th November 2019, 01:59 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I wonder if Trump actually wrote this because it's largely true.

Except Newsom is just the new guy on the block. This has been California's M.O. for decades. Water is what has been fought for over the past century - forget the gold rush.

Here's one con he doesn't mention. That whole "dumping water into the ocean" bit is probably referring to the amount of water we release from reservoirs to supposedly save fish species like the Delta Smelt.

What actually happens is that the water gets sold down south, and at a large profit for some private investors.

The "saving the Smelt by cooling the Delta" is just the excuse for releasing the water so it can be sold. Nobody cares about the quite literal handful of smelt that are seen in the waterways (I believe 6 were observed a few years ago).

In fact two forty-foot tunnels were to be built beneath the Delta itself to move water away from the area. Now that plan is being changed to maybe a single tunnel. Opponents say this will destroy the Delta ecosystem allowing salt water to move further inland, among other things.

Yep. A (or two) forty foot tall tunnel beneath the Delta water system. What could go wrong?

Finally, during the droughts we all learned that almond trees use an insane amount of water, yet more and more almond orchards appear every year. Guess where some of that water is to be diverted? The almond growers! Big money baby!

Nobody seems to care about the actual water shortage, it's just another way of making money for these people. The water literally goes to the highest bidders.
There is just so much wrong with this post. The fires driven by hurricane force winds are going to spread regardless of the amount of fuel present. They spread on cleared land and through urban areas out of control. They are more fierce because of global warming and this phenomenon is occurring globally. The idea that clearing undergrowth would take everything back to where it was before is just wishful thinking.
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Old 4th November 2019, 02:01 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I think he calls it dealmaking. A lot of people are saying he's the best.
I didn't know that
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Old 4th November 2019, 02:30 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Republicans will only impeach a Democrats' President if they think it will help them win the next election.
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I reckon they could just do it out of spite....
They already did.
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Old 4th November 2019, 02:53 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trump's NDAs have generally been considered to be far more scary than enforceable.
Yes. They work well against small contractors who have had to mortgage their houses to stay afloat because of President Trump’s refusal to pay what he owes people. No lawyer will take their case and they are afraid of a corporate legal team.

Against knowledgeable people who have a publishing company backing them, perhaps not so much.

But Aridas has a point
Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
If they even could out the anonymous person, it's a win for them.
Then again, there are variables at play. Once the name is known, President Trump can make fun if the name itself [aside: you’d think that someone who has done that for years would be better at it] but on the other hand, they cannot claim that it is all made up because there is no real source. And a book tour then becomes an option.
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Old 4th November 2019, 03:10 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Anyway, where do you think that this deepening divide between the two parties/sides began? The civil rights movement? Nixon? Reagan? Clinton? Bush?

It's obviously been always there, even before confederation, but it's gotten worse.
There are articles and books that say that Newt Gingrich was the tipping point. He’s the guy who suggested that name calling (e.g. “the loony left”) was an appropriate path. He suggested that Democrats and Republicans stop fraternizing on the weekends. He convinced legislators to look at politics as a zero-sum conflict.

ETA: Rush Limbaugh and his ilk helped a great deal.


MORE ETA: And once the internet ushered in the Misinformation Age (2009? 2010?) it was impossible to turn back.

The Great Experiment is over. It failed.
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Old 4th November 2019, 03:28 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I had the same thought.
I had a spit-out-my-coffee-and-choke-and-give-myself-the-Heimlick-maneuver thought.


If you multiply any standard hypocrisy times its importance, that one has to be in the top one of all-time hypocrisies.
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Old 4th November 2019, 03:32 PM   #198
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OK, if democracy is de facto dead, what is our next step and what do we replace it with?
I got a feeling that H.G. Wells idea of a small group of scientist taking over the world and producing Utopia will be popular.
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Old 4th November 2019, 03:34 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
There is just so much wrong with this post. The fires driven by hurricane force winds are going to spread regardless of the amount of fuel present. They spread on cleared land and through urban areas out of control. They are more fierce because of global warming and this phenomenon is occurring globally. The idea that clearing undergrowth would take everything back to where it was before is just wishful thinking.
Clearing undergrouth from around your house if you live in a rural area is a very good idea, but it's not a total solution.
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Old 4th November 2019, 03:34 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Anyway, where do you think that this deepening divide between the two parties/sides began? The civil rights movement? Nixon? Reagan? Clinton? Bush?

It's obviously been always there, even before confederation, but it's gotten worse.
The civil rights movement was when the Dixiecrats went Republican and the law-and-order strategy went into play. But, of course the civil rights movement has it roots in the Civil War, and the very constitution as originally written.


Race truly is America's original sin, and while it's not the only issue, it sure tracks the divide in the country fairly well.
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