ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Stephen Miller

Reply
Old 19th November 2019, 01:28 PM   #41
Random
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,066
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The american ethno-nationalists seem kind of divided on the issues of whether Jewish people count as proper white folks or as "the other". Of course, budding fascists with an appreciation for their own ideology's history know that Jews are not to be tolerated, but some are starting to see that as outdated and are willing to treat Jews as just other white people. Especially when you have extremely right wing Jews, like Miller, doing such productive work for the nationalists.

The original European understanding of ethno-nationalism isn't really a perfect fit for the US. Many nationalists here don't bother differentiating between the various stocks of white Europeans the way a proper German Nazi might have, but rather just paint the lines as Western whites vs. everyone else. The trope of the scheming, cosmopolitan Jew is hard to shake, but there is growing acceptance under the American nationalist umbrella.

In a lot of ways, Israel is admired. It's a highly militarized nation with a vibrant far-right political party in control with aspirations of becoming an ethnostate.
We are a multi-cultural nation, so the ethnostate people can play a lot more rounds of "WE will be better off without THEM" before they inevitably get to Jews.

Hispanics are popular targets now, but it wouldn't take much to make it Muslims again. Then there are gays and black people. Anti-Semitism is kinda frowned on except by the hardcore haters, as it reminds normal people of the Nazis and gives the game away early...
__________________
"...Am I actually watching Big Bird argue with the Egyptian God of the Dead? Is PBS sending some kind of weird religious message here?"
Random is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 01:33 PM   #42
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,330
Originally Posted by Random View Post
We are a multi-cultural nation, so the ethnostate people can play a lot more rounds of "WE will be better off without THEM" before they inevitably get to Jews.

Hispanics are popular targets now, but it wouldn't take much to make it Muslims again. Then there are gays and black people. Anti-Semitism is kinda frowned on except by the hardcore haters, as it reminds normal people of the Nazis and gives the game away early...
I think that is generally true, and you see groups like the Proud Boys that are multiracial, but I'm not sure how well that applies to the Jews specifically.

In the ideology of the nazis, both originally and in the most "pure" strains around today, the Jews play a special role in racial conflict. They aren't just one undesirable minority among many, but play the role of global puppet master. If anything, the Jews are an arch villain, rather than just another inferior race of human.

There is a very deep conflict here that has the potential to really drive factional infighting among the nationalist right.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 19th November 2019 at 01:38 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 04:18 PM   #43
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 46,270
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think that is generally true, and you see groups like the Proud Boys that are multiracial, but I'm not sure how well that applies to the Jews specifically.

In the ideology of the nazis, both originally and in the most "pure" strains around today, the Jews play a special role in racial conflict. They aren't just one undesirable minority among many, but play the role of global puppet master. If anything, the Jews are an arch villain, rather than just another inferior race of human.

There is a very deep conflict here that has the potential to really drive factional infighting among the nationalist right.
Which should be encouraged whenever possible....
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 07:30 PM   #44
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,336
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think that is generally true, and you see groups like the Proud Boys that are multiracial, but I'm not sure how well that applies to the Jews specifically.
Well, the Proud Boys are, for now, a violent street gang of more ordinary sort. Granted, they could easily slip into outright white nationalism, have lots of enraged bigots in their ranks, still hate LGBT people as a group, and Gavin McGinnis should be jailed and if possible deported to Canada for creating them. But *for the moment* they aren't terrorists like the KKK, or have as wide a net as Identity Evropa or whoever.

As for Jewish people there's a bit of a disagreement on whether or not they "are actually white", as you said. The dead giveaway is usually belief in "Great Replacement", which states that it's the Jews who (for no apparent reason) are trying to wipe out the white race.

Ethiopian Jews, and other clearly nonwhite Jewish folk, are generally not considered at all.

Miller is likely seen by most, though, as a useful idiot. And even if he only has one "pure" relative...well, remember when Spencer brought up "Octaroons" in his supervillian rant?
Mumbles is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2019, 03:56 PM   #45
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 46,270
Problem is some of the Trumpers here will never admit somebody is a racist unless he is wearing a white robe with a Swastike armband.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2019, 09:10 PM   #46
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,681
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem is some of the Trumpers here will never admit somebody is a racist unless he is wearing a white robe with a Swastike armband.
Even then there are some who will make excuses for it.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2019, 11:22 AM   #47
tanabear
Critical Thinker
 
tanabear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Lion's Den
Posts: 387
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Cool, so you've proven selection bias.

Crackpot blog has highly supportive, small following. That's the nature of crackpot blogs.

Only 10 responded to the question about Anatoly Karlin, and they rated him slightly lower than Sailer. Seems that he's even too nutty for the average hard-righter.

I'm not sure what you think you've shown here. Insular racists think their fringe racist blogs are really good. The general profession has low opinion of mainstream news on topics in which they are subject matter experts. None of this is shocking.
The report shows that a small but highly informed group of experts rate Steve Sailer's blog as a reliable source for information on intelligence reporting. Steve Sailer is probably not well known outside of certain circles, but the experts who are aware of him rate him highly. The other issue you ignore is how poorly the mainstream media is rated. Why did they do so bad? The study itself states,

"The results suggest broad agreement among experts that television and radio do not provide accurate information about intelligence research."

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Nobody who has been paying attention is surprised at Miller's prejudices, but Trumptards need strong evidence to be convinced.
I'm sure that if most Trump supporters read the e-mails there would be broad agreement with the views presented. The content of the e-mails are only "sinister" and "shocking" to SJW Left.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem is some of the Trumpers here will never admit somebody is a racist unless he is wearing a white robe with a Swastike armband.
In today's world a "racist" is just someone who isn't afraid to tell the Truth.
__________________
pomeroo: "Mark, where did this guy get the idea that you talked about holding aluminum in your hand?"

Undesired Walrus: "Why, Ron, Mark mentioned this on your very own show!"
tanabear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2019, 04:38 PM   #48
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,336
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
I'm sure that if most Trump supporters read the e-mails there would be broad agreement with the views presented.
Yes, we agree. Not *all*, of course, some are just very busy, or very slow.

Quote:
The content of the e-mails are only "sinister" and "shocking" to SJW Left.
It's only the guys who think it's a horrible wrong to punch Nazi wannabes like Richard Spencer that are "shocked". You know, the type of (almost always white, here in the US) centrist that thinks that we can all just argue, even against transparently harmful people as Nazi wannabes. Wonder if they'd argue the same for child rapists and the like - since we're discussing the most disgusting people on the planet, and I'm often told (by these same white centrists) that "racist" is even more of an insult than "child rapist".

Anyway, "The left", broadly, figured out years ago that he's a white supremacist, as well as his former boss the KKKeebler Elf and his current boss Dolt 45 (the latter two had been obvious for decades, really). So did centrists who thought of it and paid attention, really.

I mean, I suppose most white supremacists and white nationalists recognized him from the start as well, like how fish school with their own - more instinct than intelligence. I mean, if you're the sort that routinely goes onto boards on the internet to write about how much they hate blacks, or "mud people" or whatever, then you'd recognize him on this, guppy-like level.
Mumbles is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2019, 09:23 PM   #49
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 3,359
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The american ethno-nationalists seem kind of divided on the issues of whether Jewish people count as proper white folks or as "the other". Of course, budding fascists with an appreciation for their own ideology's history know that Jews are not to be tolerated, but some are starting to see that as outdated and are willing to treat Jews as just other white people. Especially when you have extremely right wing Jews, like Miller, doing such productive work for the nationalists.

The original European understanding of ethno-nationalism isn't really a perfect fit for the US. Many nationalists here don't bother differentiating between the various stocks of white Europeans the way a proper German Nazi might have, but rather just paint the lines as Western whites vs. everyone else. The trope of the scheming, cosmopolitan Jew is hard to shake, but there is growing acceptance under the American nationalist umbrella.

In a lot of ways, Israel is admired. It's a highly militarized nation with a vibrant far-right political party in control with aspirations of becoming an ethnostate.
My thoughts exactly.

ethno-nationalism should be understood by region and culture.

I've always had the impression that relatively recent upticks in nationalist fervor, say, since the 80s, 90s are more anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim than overtly white supremacist. There are those KKK, Neo-Nazi, neo-confederate holdovers sure but they are probably just the loudest in a sea of "moderate" nationalists because 9/11 and the wrong kind of Latino.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2019, 11:40 AM   #50
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,681
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
In today's world a "racist" is just someone who isn't afraid to tell the Truth.
Yes, that's how the overt racists see themselves. You know, the comments made at Thanksgiving dinner that make the kids and grandkids drop their mouths in horror and shame. "What?! I'm just telling the truth!" the racist says.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 04:21 AM   #51
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 48,312
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
My thoughts exactly.

ethno-nationalism should be understood by region and culture.

I've always had the impression that relatively recent upticks in nationalist fervor, say, since the 80s, 90s are more anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim than overtly white supremacist.
So they like black people(at least those who know their place like they did in the 50's)?

This seems a distinction without a difference trying to break some white supremacists off of others.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 11:45 AM   #52
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,681
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
This seems a distinction without a difference trying to break some white supremacists off of others.

Categorizing racists by their different beliefs is not the same as giving them your approval.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 11:49 AM   #53
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 48,312
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Categorizing racists by their different beliefs is not the same as giving them your approval.
So what is the difference in their beliefs? Why is it say anti catholic and immigrant like the good old KKK was, but suddenly so distinct from being full on white supremacist?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 01:20 PM   #54
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,681
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So what is the difference in their beliefs? Why is it say anti catholic and immigrant like the good old KKK was, but suddenly so distinct from being full on white supremacist?
I'm not sure to whom you are referring to or the relevance of your question, only that you were objecting to "...trying to break some white supremacists off of others."

Just because you can make distinctions among similar groups doesn't imply approval of any of them. For example, a Catholic bigot who doesn't include anti-Catholic bigotry among his hatreds is still a bigot, even if you make a distinction between him and another bigot who does include anti-Catholic bigotry amongst his hatreds.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 06:54 AM   #55
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
In today's world a "racist" is just someone who isn't afraid to tell the Truth.
How liberating that must be.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 06:56 AM   #56
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Just because you can make distinctions among similar groups doesn't imply approval of any of them.
That's because you don't understand turtle's philosophy, whereby nuance is a great evil.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 07:45 AM   #57
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,009
Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Do we really need to read them? Is anyone surprised the Stephen Miller is a white supremacist, has a relationship with Breitbart, or is so stupid/confident that his opinions are secretly mainstream that he was willing to document them in an easily traceable medium?
He has been linked to the minute man movement for a long time.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 08:49 AM   #58
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,681
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's because you don't understand turtle's philosophy, whereby nuance is a great evil.
Apparently once you've reached the conclusion that something is morally wrong, any further thinking on the topic is also morally wrong.

An attitude that is just as cringe-worthy when you happen to agree with him as when you don't.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 09:02 AM   #59
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 48,312
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Apparently once you've reached the conclusion that something is morally wrong, any further thinking on the topic is also morally wrong.

An attitude that is just as cringe-worthy when you happen to agree with him as when you don't.
And marking a group that believes in the superiority of the white race is not a white supremacists is helpful? Venom was marking them as not white supremacists instead of sub groupings with in white supremacy. But clearly that kind of distinction is not a meaningful one to you, with all your precision it would be morally wrong to classify all people who believe in the supremacy of the white race as white supremacists.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 02:50 PM   #60
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,681
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And marking a group that believes in the superiority of the white race is not a white supremacists is helpful? Venom was marking them as not white supremacists instead of sub groupings with in white supremacy. But clearly that kind of distinction is not a meaningful one to you, with all your precision it would be morally wrong to classify all people who believe in the supremacy of the white race as white supremacists.
You are so very confused on so many levels.

Marking someone as a sub-group of white supremacists still marks them as white supremacists. That's how it works, sub groups of larger groups still are part of the larger group. Otherwise it wouldn't be a sub-group, it would just be a different group.

It seems like you really need to find that person who (according to you) claimed the sub-group of white supremacists aren't white supremacists and argue with them. I don't see anyone who said that in this thread, but you seem to think you saw it.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 03:04 PM   #61
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,009
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So what is the difference in their beliefs? Why is it say anti catholic and immigrant like the good old KKK was, but suddenly so distinct from being full on white supremacist?
Because it is lead By Pro Catholics and Pro evangelicals, It's pro White nationalist anti Muslim.
It's basically pro White Christian Right, war on White Christians type.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 05:15 AM   #62
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 48,312
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You are so very confused on so many levels.

Marking someone as a sub-group of white supremacists still marks them as white supremacists.
Go back to Venom's post, he was contrasting them to true white supremacists. You then took exception to my taking exception to not classing them as white supremacists.

Originally Posted by Venom View Post
My thoughts exactly.

ethno-nationalism should be understood by region and culture.

I've always had the impression that relatively recent upticks in nationalist fervor, say, since the 80s, 90s are more anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim than overtly white supremacist. There are those KKK, Neo-Nazi, neo-confederate holdovers sure but they are probably just the loudest in a sea of "moderate" nationalists because 9/11 and the wrong kind of Latino.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 05:22 AM   #63
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You are so very confused on so many levels.

Marking someone as a sub-group of white supremacists still marks them as white supremacists. That's how it works, sub groups of larger groups still are part of the larger group. Otherwise it wouldn't be a sub-group, it would just be a different group.

It seems like you really need to find that person who (according to you) claimed the sub-group of white supremacists aren't white supremacists and argue with them. I don't see anyone who said that in this thread, but you seem to think you saw it.
It's "clear", I'm sure.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 09:40 AM   #64
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,681
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Go back to Venom's post, he was contrasting them to true white supremacists. You then took exception to my taking exception to not classing them as white supremacists.
I don't particularly agree with Venom because it seems clear to me that white supremacists have felt empowered to come out and be more vocal in the last several years, however...

Do you believe it is possible to be anti-Muslim without being a white supremacist? Yes or no?

Do you believe it is possible to be anti-immigrant without being a white supremacist? Yes or no?

I think the answer to both of those is an obvious "yes", and that doesn't in any way condone being anti-Muslim or anti-immigrant. Further, I think it's important to be able to look at who believes what, and to make distinctions among them because without being able to look at that one couldn't possibly make any effort to counter wrong-thinking.

So, while I generally agree with you that being a bigot of any kind is wrong, I think in this exchange you're the one who is being anti-knowledge and pro-ignorance.

So please stop. Just stop.

Is Venom wrong? Maybe, but he's not wrong for making distinctions between the beliefs of different kinds of bigots because there are real distinctions in the beliefs of different kinds of bigots. You are wrong in claiming that noting these distinctions implies any kind of approval of them.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 10:23 AM   #65
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 48,312
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I don't particularly agree with Venom because it seems clear to me that white supremacists have felt empowered to come out and be more vocal in the last several years, however...

Do you believe it is possible to be anti-Muslim without being a white supremacist? Yes or no?

Do you believe it is possible to be anti-immigrant without being a white supremacist? Yes or no?
Of course when you are only against certain colors of immigrants as such rants tend to be they are a bit of a give away.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 12:34 PM   #66
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,681
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course when you are only against certain colors of immigrants as such rants tend to be they are a bit of a give away.
Who?
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 12:59 PM   #67
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 9,125
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course when you are only against certain colors of immigrants as such rants tend to be they are a bit of a give away.

And it gets even worse when people are only (or primarily) against certain religions.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2019, 01:29 PM   #68
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,681
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course when you are only against certain colors of immigrants as such rants tend to be they are a bit of a give away.
You dodged the questions. Why?

In the past my country has held prejudices against white immigrants. Does you making a distinction between prejudices against white and non-white immigrants imply it's okay to be prejudiced against white immigrants? Aren't you marking a very similar distinction to the one Venom made?

Yes or no? Why or why not?
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2019, 10:06 AM   #69
tanabear
Critical Thinker
 
tanabear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Lion's Den
Posts: 387
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
It's only the guys who think it's a horrible wrong to punch Nazi wannabes like Richard Spencer that are "shocked". You know, the type of (almost always white, here in the US) centrist that thinks that we can all just argue, even against transparently harmful people as Nazi wannabes. Wonder if they'd argue the same for child rapists and the like - since we're discussing the most disgusting people on the planet....
"Nazi wannabes" are people who believe in free speech and are against foreign wars. Yes, these are the most harmful people on the planet. It isn't the neo-cons and other Interventionistas who never met a war they didn't like and are responsible for the deaths of millions.

It isn't the crime that bothers or offends the Left. It is the thought crime.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Yes, that's how the overt racists see themselves. You know, the comments made at Thanksgiving dinner that make the kids and grandkids drop their mouths in horror and shame. "What?! I'm just telling the truth!" the racist says.
Every cult needs a way to distinguish true-believers from heretics. Whenever the Left uses the terms of racist, sexist, Nazi, Fascist, white supremacists etc., it is their way of labeling infidels. If the beliefs or arguments of "racists" were wrong then you would not have to label then. You could simply demonstrate where they are wrong in a Socratic dialogue kind of way. But the Left can't do this. So they take the arguments out the intellectual realm and move them over to the moral realm. If you believe so-and-so you are a bad person irrespective of whether or not you are telling the Truth.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How liberating that must be.
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
__________________
pomeroo: "Mark, where did this guy get the idea that you talked about holding aluminum in your hand?"

Undesired Walrus: "Why, Ron, Mark mentioned this on your very own show!"
tanabear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2019, 10:10 AM   #70
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
I thought work macht you frei?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2019, 01:18 PM   #71
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,681
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Every cult needs a way to distinguish true-believers from heretics. Whenever the Left uses the terms of racist, sexist, Nazi, Fascist, white supremacists etc., it is their way of labeling infidels. If the beliefs or arguments of "racists" were wrong then you would not have to label then. You could simply demonstrate where they are wrong in a Socratic dialogue kind of way. But the Left can't do this. So they take the arguments out the intellectual realm and move them over to the moral realm. If you believe so-and-so you are a bad person irrespective of whether or not you are telling the Truth.
I think you should name some of these beliefs that have marked you as an infidel to the leftist cult. That way we can all understand the true nature of your persecution.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2019, 01:37 PM   #72
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 10,212
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Is Venom wrong? Maybe, but he's not wrong for making distinctions between the beliefs of different kinds of bigots because there are real distinctions in the beliefs of different kinds of bigots. You are wrong in claiming that noting these distinctions implies any kind of approval of them.
Anti-Semitism seem to be a potential wedge issue in conflicting right-wing ideologies. There is a wing that insists on Jews being the overarching enemy, the fountain head of loathing. Another kind of sees Jews as special friends, with a strong Israel a harbinger of the End Times that some evangelical Christians are fervently hoping for. I can see that the two groups might sometimes forge temporary alliances, but I'm not sure this key difference could be resolved.

It makes me wonder when Trump will be challenged by a full-on Nazi on the far right.

ETA: Maybe it comes down to which people count as "white."

Last edited by Minoosh; 29th November 2019 at 01:38 PM.
Minoosh is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2019, 02:23 PM   #73
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,681
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It makes me wonder when Trump will be challenged by a full-on Nazi on the far right.

ETA: Maybe it comes down to which people count as "white."
Once they've destroyed their common enemies on the left, then they can argue amongst themselves over who qualifies as white and how Jews should be regarded.

I wonder if it isn't recent advances in leftist policies, the acceptance of gay marriage and such, that convinced moderates on the right that they need to embrace the far right to hold their ground.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2019, 11:35 AM   #74
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,336
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Once they've destroyed their common enemies on the left, then they can argue amongst themselves over who qualifies as white and how Jews should be regarded.

I wonder if it isn't recent advances in leftist policies, the acceptance of gay marriage and such, that convinced moderates on the right that they need to embrace the far right to hold their ground.
Given that they've embraced similar views for well over a century - and screamed that "librul" (meaning democrats, including the great majority of conservative black and Jewish people - and more recently conservative Asian, Hispanic, and Muslim people as well) was "fake" or "Identity politics", they were either being supremely ignorant on the matter, or themselves disingenuous. That's why they've not only rejected "small" government for these groups groups, but openly championed overwhelming, oppressive and violent government for many of them.

"Wow, I'm shocked to find that our embrace of systematic government bigotry has attracted a bunch of Nazi-loving goons!" They can cram it where the sun doesn't shine.
Mumbles is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2019, 01:36 PM   #75
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,335
Remarkable how little uproar actually occurred after this episode. Partly, that's due to the news about impeachment taking all the press attention and the fact that, really, no one is surprised that Miller advocates nationalist views.

What a shame that this story has caused no real response from any Senate Republicans however. They don't even bother saying that Miller's views are disreputable and he's the wrong man to advise on immigration policy.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd December 2019, 08:08 AM   #76
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 48,312
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You dodged the questions. Why?

In the past my country has held prejudices against white immigrants. Does you making a distinction between prejudices against white and non-white immigrants imply it's okay to be prejudiced against white immigrants? Aren't you marking a very similar distinction to the one Venom made?

Yes or no? Why or why not?
Bah only if you think those swarthy Germans are really white, I agree with Ben Franklin and say they are not!

I mean it isn't like there is some absolute definition of white.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd December 2019, 08:10 AM   #77
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I think you should name some of these beliefs that have marked you as an infidel to the leftist cult. That way we can all understand the true nature of your persecution.
The true nature of his persecution is that the majority doesn't share his beliefs.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd December 2019, 09:13 AM   #78
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,681
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Bah only if you think those swarthy Germans are really white, I agree with Ben Franklin and say they are not!

I mean it isn't like there is some absolute definition of white.
Sarcasm is a poor substitute for reason.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd December 2019, 09:50 AM   #79
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 48,312
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Sarcasm is a poor substitute for reason.
Just let me know when Germans became white as opposed to swarthy from Franklin's day and we will have something useful to discuss. On the matter.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:08 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.