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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , marijuana legalization

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Old 21st November 2019, 03:41 PM   #81
varwoche
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That must explain why I think so many people are morons. You think?
It's possible that if I didn't smoke weed like a fiend that my highly successful career as a software developer would have been even more successful. On the other hand, my software invention that launched me to quasi fame was conceived when I was stoned beyond belief.
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Old 21st November 2019, 03:59 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It's possible that if I didn't smoke weed like a fiend that my highly successful career as a software developer would have been even more successful. On the other hand, my software invention that launched me to quasi fame was conceived when I was stoned beyond belief.
That's a good question. Without a good answer.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 03:22 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
IMV, one is an attempt to experience life to its fullest, the other is an artificial chemical.
Both are an attempt to experience life to it's fullest.

Why is it important to you that it's an 'artificial'* chemical that's causing the high rather than a 'natural' one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurob...neurochemistry



Quote:
I'm well aware that drugs affect people differently.

Perhaps I'm under a misapprehension. But given my experience, persuading me that canabis doesn't have a negative effect on cognitive functioning would be difficult.
Why? Why are you placing more value on your own, unchecked observations of a small, self selected sample over and above actual case studies and the like that have actual protocol and are well controlled?

I simply don't understand how you can cling to your anecdote when everything we know about critical thinking tells you that you shouldn't?




*Marijuana is not artificial, but I get what you mean.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 03:32 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Not everyone, but the world certainly seems full of them. I give you Jimmy Kimmel and his man on the street or CNN's recent interviews with Trump supporters on Pennsylvania Avenue.

I think you need a stats course.

Actually, I think the whole damn world needs a statistics course.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 03:35 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You think the Canabis plant that people grow today is natural? Today's marijuana is the result of decades of horticultural experimentation and refinement.

Do you know how many of the foods you eat today have been massively changed by artificial selection?

All of them.

Unless you eat foraged (ETA: or hunted) food, every plant or animal you eat is so very far away from it's original, undomesticated ancestor it's all but unrecognisable.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 08:21 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
But it means the end of asset forfeiture related to whatever the legal MJ industry displaces. It still seems up in the air to me as to whether Feds will see this the way you expect.
There are a range of activities that are legal when licensed by the federal and state government that are criminal when performed without benefit of those licenses. These activities require that the manufacturer/maker/end user pay for an appropriate "tax Stamp" that documents that the activity or possession of the item in question is properly taxed.

There are in California individuals that are growing and dealing marijuana that have not complied with state law and are subject to prosecution and possible asset forfeiture if arrested.

Believe it our not, there is even today a brisk business in providing untaxed alcohol and tobacco to the consumer market and the Treasury department through A. F. T. & E. are actively involved in investigating and arresting individuals involved in that illegal trade and AF is always a part of their game plan.

Marijuana legalization including a federal excise tax is a win-win for the powers that be.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 08:25 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
...[snipped a lot of stuff that isn't at issue]...
Marijuana legalization including a federal excise tax is a win-win for the powers that be.

I'd be interested in seeing numbers to support this claim. You've only documented one side of the issue.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 09:15 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Do you know how many of the foods you eat today have been massively changed by artificial selection?

All of them.

Unless you eat foraged (ETA: or hunted) food, every plant or animal you eat is so very far away from it's original, undomesticated ancestor it's all but unrecognisable.
I know that. So?

The feeling of pleasure or euphoria as a result of chemical compounds created naturally by our own bodies is "natural". A similar feeling produced by ingesting chemical compounds whether they were produced by plants or in a laboratory is not.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 09:22 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I know that. So?

The feeling of pleasure or euphoria as a result of chemical compounds created naturally by our own bodies is "natural". A similar feeling produced by ingesting chemical compounds whether they were produced by plants or in a laboratory is not.
What's the moral valuation of pleasure from chemicals naturally created by the body, but triggered by interaction with something artificial?
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Old 22nd November 2019, 09:25 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Both are an attempt to experience life to it's fullest.
You think? Or is one an escape? Maybe both. It's hard for me to respect the individual who goes for the cheap chemical high. But hey, this is a matter of perspective. You're entitled to your opinion

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post

Why? Why are you placing more value on your own, unchecked observations of a small, self selected sample over and above actual case studies and the like that have actual protocol and are well controlled?

I simply don't understand how you can cling to your anecdote when everything we know about critical thinking tells you that you shouldn't?
I'm not. I said "difficult" not impossible.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 09:33 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You think? Or is one an escape? Maybe both. It's hard for me to respect the individual who goes for the cheap chemical high. But hey, this is a matter of perspective. You're entitled to your opinion
Seriously? How many times have you smoked pot?
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Old 22nd November 2019, 09:40 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What's the moral valuation of pleasure from chemicals naturally created by the body, but triggered by interaction with something artificial?
Ahhh, there it is. That's personal, but I'll tell you.

I have a lot of experience with my loved one's embrace of those artificial highs. I've also worked as a volunteer helping individuals with chemical dependencies. I've been in a lot of homes where everyone is passing the bong around, I've also been around exercise nuts, rock climbers, skydivers etc. One seems vibrant and alive, the other like zombies usually saying nonsensical things.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 09:43 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Seriously? How many times have you smoked pot?
I didn't count. But a lot in my teens. But not since then.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 09:44 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Ahhh, there it is. That's personal, but I'll tell you.

I have a lot of experience with my love one's embrace of those artificial highs. I've also worked as a volunteer helping individuals with chemical dependencies. I've been in a lot of homes where everyone is passing the bong around, I've also been around exercise nuts, rock climbers, skydivers etc. One seems vibrant and alive, the other like zombies usually saying nonsensical things.
Uh, very poetic but I didn't glean a clear answer from it. Natural pleasure from brain chemicals, triggered by interaction with something artificial: good, bad, or neutral?
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Old 22nd November 2019, 09:48 AM   #95
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https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-legalization/

90% of Americans think medicinal pot should be legal, 60% think it should be legal with out restrictions. That includes 55% of Republicans. The only things keeping this from happening are inertia and my dad's generation, the silents, who still mostly oppose legalization of pot.

Sure, pot makes some folks completely useless, still better than booze which makes some folks completely useless except for occasional bouts of violence. Most folks are fine using either in moderation.

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Old 22nd November 2019, 09:52 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I know that. So?

The feeling of pleasure or euphoria as a result of chemical compounds created naturally by our own bodies is "natural".
Like the rush you get when skydiving and travelling at 120mph? Or on a roller-coaster, pulling 4.5G?



Quote:
A similar feeling produced by ingesting chemical compounds whether they were produced by plants or in a laboratory is not.

There's nothing special about 'natural'. If you hold in in such high regard, as you seem to do, I imagine you don't use any transport that travels at more tan about 30mph, you cook on an open fire, don't fly and don't use modern medicine.

I don't imagine you do any of the above and that your insistence on 'natural' only comes into play when - and I'm speculating here - you see pleasure that you believe is 'unearned'.


I'd be less like a dog with a bone on this topic, but you have decided to announce that you are ignoring all the tenets of critical thinking to hold an untenable view on a website devoted to absolutely not doing those things.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 09:56 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Uh, very poetic but I didn't glean a clear answer from it. Natural pleasure from brain chemicals, triggered by interaction with something artificial: good, bad, or neutral?
I'm not a poet. Nor do I try to be. I thought it was pretty clear. A "valuation" is necessarily personal. This was my valuation. Others are going to apply their own.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 09:59 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not a poet. Nor do I try to be. I thought it was pretty clear. A "valuation" is necessarily personal. This was my valuation. Others are going to apply their own.
I'm saying I don't know what your valuation is. The way you replied doesn't make it clear, at least to my reading comprehension. I'm not arguing with you here, I'm just asking your opinion.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 10:19 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Like the rush you get when skydiving and travelling at 120mph? Or on a roller-coaster, pulling 4.5G?

There's nothing special about 'natural'. If you hold in in such high regard, as you seem to do, I imagine you don't use any transport that travels at more tan about 30mph, you cook on an open fire, don't fly and don't use modern medicine.

I don't imagine you do any of the above and that your insistence on 'natural' only comes into play when - and I'm speculating here - you see pleasure that you believe is 'unearned'.
I occasionally cook over an open fire. But I think it's disingenuous to compare these things to popping pills, smoking dope, snorting coke or shooting up.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'd be less like a dog with a bone on this topic, but you have decided to announce that you are ignoring all the tenets of critical thinking to hold an untenable view on a website devoted to absolutely not doing those things.
You've said this twice now. I'm more than willing to reevaluate my positions on credible evidence. But all studies are not credible and each should be reviewed critically. My study and personal experiences have informed my view. It's not perfect, but it is open to revision.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 10:25 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I occasionally cook over an open fire. But I think it's disingenuous to compare these things to popping pills, smoking dope, snorting coke or shooting up.
That's just a blank statement. I'd like to see the thinking that's caused you to arrive at this opinion.



Quote:
You've said this twice now. I'm more than willing to reevaluate my positions on credible evidence. But all studies are not credible and each should be reviewed critically. My study and personal experiences have informed my view. It's not perfect, but it is open to revision.
You've got more front that a Saturday morning greengrocer.

"Hello critical thinkers, your methods are bollocks and my, self selecting, limited and uncontrolled sample size, at which I arrived by deliberately seeking out those for whom drugs have caused an issue, has more weight than actual, controlled studies done by people who understand the scientific method"


You're an ideologue, not a critical thinker, I'm afraid.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 10:28 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I'd be interested in seeing numbers to support this claim. You've only documented one side of the issue.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...-million-jobs/

Jan. 10, 2018 at 2:47 p.m. PST

Legalizing marijuana nationwide would create at least $132 billion in tax revenue and more than a million new jobs across the United States in the next decade, according to a new study.

New Frontier Data, a data analytics firm focused on the cannabis industry, forecasts that if legalized on the federal level, the marijuana industry could create an entirely new tax revenue stream for the government, generating millions of dollars in sales tax and payroll deductions.

“When there are budget deficits and the like, everybody wants to know where is there an additional revenue stream, and one of the most logical places is to go after cannabis and cannabis taxes,” said Beau Whitney, a senior economist at New Frontier Data.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 10:32 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I occasionally cook over an open fire. But I think it's disingenuous to compare these things to popping pills, smoking dope, snorting coke or shooting up.
One of these things is not like the others, not like the others, not like the others.

This is the problem though. Marijuana is scheduled like those other things you're referring to (opiods) when it is absolutely nothing like that at all.

I seriously think you're so out of touch with how it is now because the last time you did it you were a teenager that you're just regurgitating decades old talking points.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 10:39 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm saying I don't know what your valuation is. The way you replied doesn't make it clear, at least to my reading comprehension. I'm not arguing with you here, I'm just asking your opinion.
Fair enough. It use to be highly negative. Not so much any more. I realize that people take drugs for a multitude of reasons. I also realize how easy it is to become addicted. (Yes, I know, cannabis is not physically addictive like alchohol, amphetamines, barbiturates or opiates)

Let's just put it this way. People including myself have weaknesses. I'm not a big fan of casting stones when I live in a glass house. For some people, taking drugs helps them survive the day. And how you get your freak on is your personal business. Who am I to judge? That said, I am endlessly frustrated with drug users.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 10:42 AM   #104
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@BStrong. You keep providing evidence for the side I don't need further evidence on. I understand taxing pot will be a tax on pot and will be a pot tax. I never questioned that, nor needed any convincing. You're documenting the obvious side of the issue.

The question is whether Feds will be OK losing asset forfeitures and jobs at DEA (possibly elsewhere).

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Old 22nd November 2019, 10:43 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Fair enough. It use to be highly negative. Not so much any more. I realize that people take drugs for a multitude of reasons. I also realize how easy it is to become addicted. (Yes, I know, cannabis is not physically addictive like alchohol, amphetamines, barbiturates or opiates)

Let's just put it this way. People including myself have weaknesses. I'm not a big fan of casting stones when I live in a glass house. For some people, taking drugs helps them survive the day. And how you get your freak on is your personal business. Who am I to judge? That said, I am endlessly frustrated with drug users.
Isn't that, er, a judgement?
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Old 22nd November 2019, 10:47 AM   #106
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In terms of stoners being slackers -- to the extent true and that surely is non zero -- in my view the main contributor is the lethargy effect an hour or two after smoking, more so than the psychoactive/cognitive effect.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 10:49 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
One of these things is not like the others, not like the others, not like the others.

This is the problem though. Marijuana is scheduled like those other things you're referring to (opiods) when it is absolutely nothing like that at all.

I seriously think you're so out of touch with how it is now because the last time you did it you were a teenager that you're just regurgitating decades old talking points.
You think I have a memory problem? That's precious.

I don't believe cannabis should be a schedule 1 drug. It's a mistake that it has ever been one. I'm also in favor of its legalization or at least decriminalization. Alcohol is ten times worse and it is legal. That said, I don't care to deal with an individual who is drunk or "baked". But I'll take dealing with someone who is stoned over the drunk every day and twice on Sunday.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 10:50 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Isn't that, er, a judgement?
Probably.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 10:50 AM   #109
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ban it everywhere
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Old 22nd November 2019, 10:52 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
In terms of stoners being slackers -- to the extent true and that surely is non zero -- in my view the main contributor is the lethargy effect an hour or two after smoking, more so than the psychoactive/cognitive effect.
I would agree with this and I would add that once you've smoked long enough it becomes a non issue since I know it's coming.

Different forms\types\strands of marijuana have different effects. Some are mental, some are body buzz, some are sleepy, and edibles have different effects than smoking.

The "potheads are lazy" statement is complete and total ********. The same can be said about people who don't smoke pot as well. Lazy people are lazy. Weed is irrelevant.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 10:53 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
ban it everywhere
That never works.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 10:53 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Probably.
Then I think your thinking is confused, you literally contradict yourself in consecutive sentences.


I'm not going to attempt to reason a man out of a position he self evidently hasn't reasoned himself into.

Have a nice day
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Old 22nd November 2019, 10:55 AM   #113
plague311
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You think I have a memory problem? That's precious.
If I remember right you've stated you're 50+. You said you smoked pot in your earlier days. I know remembering things from 30+ years ago can be difficult, and I also know that marijuana has changed A LOT over the last 20 years. Firsthand. It wasn't a statement about your memory as much as you being away from it for so long your experience has no relevance.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't believe cannabis should be a schedule 1 drug. It's a mistake that it has ever been one. I'm also in favor of its legalization or at least decriminalization. Alcohol is ten times worse and it is legal. That said, I don't care to deal with an individual who is drunk or "baked". But I'll take dealing with someone who is stoned over the drunk every day and twice on Sunday.
It's good to know where you stand, but as I've said you probably deal with stoned people on a consistent basis and have absolutely no idea that they are stoned. In fact, I would almost guarantee it.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 10:57 AM   #114
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Then I think your thinking is confused, you literally contradict yourself in consecutive sentences.


I'm not going to attempt to reason a man out of a position he self evidently hasn't reasoned himself into.

Have a nice day
You think not wanting to judge people and yet being "frustrated" by them makes me confused? Does having conflicting positions make me incoherent?

Hmmm.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 11:01 AM   #115
plague311
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You think not wanting to judge people and yet being "frustrated" by them makes me confused? Does having conflicting positions make me incoherent?

Hmmm.
I believe he's pointing out the hypocrisy of saying "I live in a glass house so I don't throw rocks" and then in the next sentence picking up the "druggies are irritating" rock and heaving it as hard as possible at a slough of glass houses, then walking back in your glass house.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 11:01 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It's good to know where you stand, but as I've said you probably deal with stoned people on a consistent basis and have absolutely no idea that they are stoned. In fact, I would almost guarantee it.
And yet sometimes it's obvious.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 11:02 AM   #117
3point14
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You think not wanting to judge people and yet being "frustrated" by them makes me confused? Does having conflicting positions make me incoherent?

Hmmm.

No, following 'who am I to judge' with a a judgement makes you confused.

Sticking to your current, logically deeply flawed position, whereby you have actively sought out those for whom drug use causes an issue and called them the whole population makes you incoherent.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 11:05 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
@BStrong. You keep providing evidence for the side I don't need further evidence on. I understand taxing pot will be a tax on pot and will be a pot tax. I never questioned that, nor needed any convincing. You're documenting the obvious side of the issue.

The question is whether Feds will be OK losing asset forfeitures
and jobs at DEA (possibly elsewhere).

They wouldn't "lose asset forfeiture." I explained how federal and state law functions wrt individuals involved in non-licensed operations that constitute criminal acts - the fact that "the other guy" is legal and licensed and can't be prosecuted doesn't in any way mean the guy who isn't licensed is exempt from criminal statutes, including asset forfeiture.

As far as the DEA having to lose agents, you're assuming facts not in evidence. Were marijuana to be legalized at the federal level and removed from the fed. Schedule 1 list they'd still have the rest of the list to focus on.

https://www.drugs.com/article/csa-schedule-1.html

Reference CSA Schedules List of Schedule 1 Drugs

List of Schedule 1 Drugs
Medically reviewed by L. Anderson, PharmD Last updated on May 18, 2018.

Schedule I drugs are those that have the following characteristic according to the United States Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA):
Drugs or Substances listed in DEA Schedule I may include:

Heroin (diacetylmorphine)

LSD (Lysergic acid diethylamide)

Marijuana (cannabis, THC)

Mescaline (Peyote)

MDMA (3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine or “ecstasy”)
GHB (gamma-hydroxybutyric acid) - except formulations in an FDA-approved drug product sodium oxybate (Xyrem) are Schedule III
Ecstasy (MDMA or 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine)

Psilocybin

Synthetic marijuana and analogs (Spice, K2)

Methaqualone (Quaalude)

Khat (Cathinone)

Bath Salts (3,4-methylenedioxypyrovalerone or MDPV)
The Controlled Substances Act (CSA) schedule information displayed above applies to drugs or substances regulated under federal law. There may be variations in CSA schedules between individual states and federal law. For example, some drugs or compounds may be deemed a schedule I drug or may be listed in a different schedule in a state's specific controlled substance act, which may differ from the federal controlled substance act.


DEA would have no trouble reassigning their people to other tasks. It could be that a selling point for legal marijuana at the federal level would be allocating marijuana tax revenue to the DEA or other federal LEA's.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 11:12 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I believe he's pointing out the hypocrisy of saying "I live in a glass house so I don't throw rocks" and then in the next sentence picking up the "druggies are irritating" rock and heaving it as hard as possible at a slough of glass houses, then walking back in your glass house.
Being "frustrated" by others is a regular experience for me. But I also know that we may not be the "Captain of our own ship". That free will may be an illusion and all of us are simply the product of forces that we do not control. Is being "frustrated" a judgment or a reaction? It's certainly not the result of contemplation.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 11:14 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No, following 'who am I to judge' with a a judgement makes you confused.

Sticking to your current, logically deeply flawed position, whereby you have actively sought out those for whom drug use causes an issue and called them the whole population makes you incoherent.
Deeply flawed. LMAO.
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