ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , marijuana legalization

Reply
Old 22nd November 2019, 09:12 PM   #161
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 25,005
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
In other words it is unlikely to kill you or others. Certain other, legal, drugs have the nasty habit of causing fatal diseases.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2019, 02:41 AM   #162
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18,749
Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Hello goose, may I introduce you to this gander?
To be honest, I don't think any of us expected consistency, did we?
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2019, 02:44 AM   #163
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18,749
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You hang around with Democrats, you're not going to know many Republicans. I use to play a lot of golf. Too much. I even at one time belonged to a Country Club. I was surrounded by Republicans who didn't have a clue that I was a Democrat. On the same note, you hang around with people who smoke pot, the fewer the people you know that don't. His impression was anecdotal was it not?

I've admitted that my opinions have been informed by my experiences and this is imperfect data. I'm not saying that Ron was wrong but there was maybe a variable he wasn't accounting for.
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yeah, you watch 8 brothers and sisters morph into morons who care more about getting high than anything else and get back to me.



The irony! It burns!
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

Last edited by 3point14; 23rd November 2019 at 02:48 AM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2019, 03:46 AM   #164
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,260
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
In other words it is unlikely to kill you or others. Certain other, legal, drugs have the nasty habit of causing fatal diseases.
So do certain other illegal drugs.

But I see where you are coming from, if a legal drug kills then why should one that doesn't be illegal? And I agree. It's not fair. We could make them all legal, but some drugs are really dangerous. So the only reasonable solution is to ban the lot!
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2019, 04:36 AM   #165
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,260
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No matter what is presented your mind is already made up, there's nothing new that will change it.

Which, as has been pointed out, is the polar opposite of skepticism.
Did I miss the post with 'new' information showing that cannabis isn't a waste of one's mental faculties?

Side Effects of Cannabinoids
Quote:
Although there are studies that show potential benefits from Cannabinoids, there are many side effects from taking the drug. This shows that an addiction to this natural drug can be hazardous.

Some side effects include:

Rapid heart beat
Dizziness
Depression
Hallucination
Low blood pressure
Paranoia
Panic attacks
Food cravings
It's not 'the polar opposite of skepticism' to consider those valid reasons to avoid cannabis, and no reason to change your mind while there's nothing new to redeem it. And when you've had experiences like acbytesla has with people being turned into morons or worse, it's going to (rightfully) take a lot to change your mind.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2019, 08:16 AM   #166
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,281
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Did I miss the post with 'new' information showing that cannabis isn't a waste of one's mental faculties?

Side Effects of Cannabinoids

It's not 'the polar opposite of skepticism' to consider those valid reasons to avoid cannabis, and no reason to change your mind while there's nothing new to redeem it. And when you've had experiences like acbytesla has with people being turned into morons or worse, it's going to (rightfully) take a lot to change your mind.
Thank you Roger.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2019, 12:49 PM   #167
This is The End
 
This is The End's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,814
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Sure, pot makes some folks completely useless, still better than booze which makes some folks completely useless except for occasional bouts of violence.

That sentence should have been the end of the entire thread.

If alcohol is legal then marijuana damn sure better be as well. Both are mentally and physically horrible for you if abused, but alcohol is much worse.

Both should have a heavily regulated and seriously enforced minimum age for use and purchase.
__________________
________________________
This is The End is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 04:03 AM   #168
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 48,312
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Not really. This is sarcasm right?
Not at all just treating things equally. Failing a pot test does not mean you are high, it means you were high, and ever being high is a disqualification then ever being drunk should be as well. So drinking should be equally disqualifying for employment as smoking pot no matter the timing.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 09:25 AM   #169
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 7,091
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Did I miss the post with 'new' information showing that cannabis isn't a waste of one's mental faculties?
The claim was it's a waste of one's mental faculties. Something that hasn't been proven, or even attempted to be supported, by anything other than anecdotal experiences of a few people on this forum. Provide me with something that shows cannabis is a waste of one's mental faculties. It's not on me to prove a negative, you guys are the ones making the positive claim.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
If you can't trust a source named "rehabspot" for non-bias information...anyway. There are side effects to everything. Look at that list of "possible" side effects and compare those to the end of any ******* medical commercial, where the last "side effect" is generally death or cancer. With weed it sounds like you might end up with a crazy case of a ham sandwich.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
It's not 'the polar opposite of skepticism' to consider those valid reasons to avoid cannabis, and no reason to change your mind while there's nothing new to redeem it. And when you've had experiences like acbytesla has with people being turned into morons or worse, it's going to (rightfully) take a lot to change your mind.
I don't want either of you guys to try weed. That would be extremely pointless because naysayers are going to naysay. I just don't want nonsensical misinformation spreading out of ignorance. Which is exactly the case here. It's not that you guys are afraid of the devil's lettuce, it's that acbytesla won't even bother to look into it or try to educate ones self. Then you say something as completely ignorant as "nothing has changed", which it certainly has over the last 10 years alone.

So again, stay away from it but don't make **** up.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 09:54 AM   #170
DuvalHMFIC
Graduate Poster
 
DuvalHMFIC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,357
I blame Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Great movie though.
__________________
Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick.
DuvalHMFIC is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 11:13 AM   #171
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,281
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The claim was it's a waste of one's mental faculties. Something that hasn't been proven, or even attempted to be supported, by anything other than anecdotal experiences of a few people on this forum. Provide me with something that shows cannabis is a waste of one's mental faculties. It's not on me to prove a negative, you guys are the ones making the positive claim.



If you can't trust a source named "rehabspot" for non-bias information...anyway. There are side effects to everything. Look at that list of "possible" side effects and compare those to the end of any ******* medical commercial, where the last "side effect" is generally death or cancer. With weed it sounds like you might end up with a crazy case of a ham sandwich.



I don't want either of you guys to try weed. That would be extremely pointless because naysayers are going to naysay. I just don't want nonsensical misinformation spreading out of ignorance. Which is exactly the case here. It's not that you guys are afraid of the devil's lettuce, it's that acbytesla won't even bother to look into it or try to educate ones self. Then you say something as completely ignorant as "nothing has changed", which it certainly has over the last 10 years alone.

So again, stay away from it but don't make **** up.
I've had enough of your insulting bs.. I may not be taking cannabis related products but I have definitely been exposed to people that do. I've also read my share of articles regarding the effects of cannabis use. In fact, if you google short and long term effects of cannabis use, you can find article after article including article including in reputable medical journals and in the NIH that definitely support my impressions.


Here is a wikipedia citation.

Quote:
Acute cannabis intoxication has been shown to negatively affect attention, psychomotor task ability, and short-term memory.[9][10] Studies of chronic cannabis use have not consistently demonstrated a long-lasting or refractory effect on the attention span, memory function, or cognitive abilities of moderate-dose long-term users. Once cannabis use was discontinued, these effects disappeared in users abstinent for a period of several months.[11]

Chronic use of cannabis during adolescence, a time when the brain is still developing, is correlated in the long term with lower IQ and cognitive deficits. It is not clear, though, if cannabis use causes the problems or if the causality is in the reverse. Recent studies have shown that IQ deficits existed in subjects before chronic cannabis use, suggesting that lower IQ may instead be a risk factor for cannabis addiction.[12]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long...ts_of_cannabis
There are so many articles citing similar effects they are too numerous to even begin.

https://www.drugfreeworld.org/drugfa...m-effects.html
https://www.drugabuse.gov/publicatio...acts/marijuana
https://americanaddictioncenters.org...g-term-effects
https://portage.ca/en/blog/long-and-...s-of-cannabis/
https://www2.courtinfo.ca.gov/stopte...rm-effects.cfm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4827335/
https://www.healthyplace.com/addicti...weed-marijuana
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...uana-the-brain
https://www.fvkasa.org/english/healt...ealth-effects/
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/...nd-its-effects
https://www.livestrong.com/article/2...-term-effects/

A tiny sample.

Now I grant you there are also articles that downplay the negative effects of cannabis use. But I have yet to read one that has said it doesn't have an effect on cognition and memory.

So do me a favor. Put down the bong and stop accusing me of having an unfairly reached position. I don't have to jump off a building to know that it might cause physical damage to my body and I don't have to get stoned to know that it could make me dumber.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 11:48 AM   #172
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 7,091
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I've had enough of your insulting bs..
Ironic considering you pretty much call me a stupid pothead to end this post.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I may not be taking cannabis related products but I have definitely been exposed to people that do. I've also read my share of articles regarding the effects of cannabis use. In fact, if you google short and long term effects of cannabis use, you can find article after article including article including in reputable medical journals and in the NIH that definitely support my impressions.

Here is a wikipedia citation.

There are so many articles citing similar effects they are too numerous to even begin.

https://www.drugfreeworld.org/drugfa...m-effects.html
https://www.drugabuse.gov/publicatio...acts/marijuana
https://americanaddictioncenters.org...g-term-effects
https://portage.ca/en/blog/long-and-...s-of-cannabis/
https://www2.courtinfo.ca.gov/stopte...rm-effects.cfm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4827335/
https://www.healthyplace.com/addicti...weed-marijuana
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...uana-the-brain
https://www.fvkasa.org/english/healt...ealth-effects/
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/...nd-its-effects
https://www.livestrong.com/article/2...-term-effects/

A tiny sample.

Now I grant you there are also articles that downplay the negative effects of cannabis use. But I have yet to read one that has said it doesn't have an effect on cognition and memory.
Ah, so there's where the issue comes in. You seem to be thinking I've said there are absolutely no side effects to marijuana. A claim I haven't made. I am arguing that it's a waste of my mental faculties. Which it's not considering I have a degree, great job, my own house, a full family, and am mentally sound.

Any time you light something on fire and inhale it there will be negative side effects. Hell, what you described is about the same as sugar:

Quote:
Even a single instance of elevated glucose in the bloodstream can be harmful to the brain, resulting in slowed cognitive function and deficits in memory and attention
So I guess eating sugar is "a waste of one's mental faculties", right? I mean, after all, a sugar high is a thing.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
So do me a favor. Put down the bong and stop accusing me of having an unfairly reached position.
No...to both.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't have to jump off a building to know that it might cause physical damage to my body and I don't have to get stoned to know that it could make me dumber.
It's possible, not likely, but it's possible. I'd say the memory could be an issue, but dumber? Nah.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 12:13 PM   #173
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,281
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ironic considering you pretty much call me a stupid pothead to end this post.
No I didn't. To begin with, I believe you already admitted that you smoke the demon weed. I also said "could" which also means it might not.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ah, so there's where the issue comes in. You seem to be thinking I've said there are absolutely no side effects to marijuana. A claim I haven't made. I am arguing that it's a waste of my mental faculties. Which it's not considering I have a degree, great job, my own house, a full family, and am mentally sound.
I never said you didn't. But that doesn't mean you wouldn't be sharper and quicker without it

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post

Any time you light something on fire and inhale it there will be negative side effects.
So why would you do that?

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Hell, what you described is about the same as sugar.
So? Does eating a candy bar justify taking drugs?

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
So I guess eating sugar is "a waste of one's mental faculties", right? I mean, after all, a sugar high is a thing.
Are you suggesting that consuming a Hershey bar makes effects cognition or memory? .

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It's possible, not likely, but it's possible. I'd say the memory could be an issue, but dumber? Nah.
There are in fact studies that suggest that Cannabis use lowers IQ scores. But I am skeptical of their methodology and how they drew their conclusions.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.

Last edited by acbytesla; 25th November 2019 at 12:37 PM.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 12:28 PM   #174
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,080
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I mean, after all, a sugar high is a thing.
It's not, actually.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 12:46 PM   #175
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 7,091
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No I didn't. To begin with, I believe you already admitted that you smoke the demon weed. I also said "could" which also means it might not.
Yes, I do smoke, daily. You told me to "put down the bong" as if I'm sitting at my desk in my office getting ripped while writing this.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I never said you didn't. But that doesn't mean you wouldn't be sharper and quicker without it
Absolutely no evidence I would be sharper and quicker without it too. Not to mention the things I use it to treat would then become a problem again.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
So why would you do that?
A bunch of reasons.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
So? Does eating a candy bar justify taking drugs?
I don't know, I don't need to justify the things I do to people. I'm saying that while you're on your soapbox here with regards to how terrible marijuana is for people, there are a myriad of every day items that have the same effects. Of those items I would bet you're outspoken about next to none of them. I used a prime example, sugar.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Are you suggesting that consuming a Hershey bar makes effects cognition or memory? .
The source I used is making the claim. Are they wrong? Do you have something to the contrary? The entire point I was trying to make is there are several things we eat\drink over the course of our lives that have negative effects, but their usage is a net positive for the user.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There are in fact studies that suggest that Cannabis use lowers IQ scores. But I am skeptical of their methodology and find it hard to believe in how they drew their conclusions.
I would beg to differ:

Quote:
Now, in the first study of its kind, scientists have analyzed long-term marijuana use in teens, comparing IQ changes in twin siblings who either used or abstained from marijuana for 10 years. After taking environmental factors into account, the scientists found no measurable link between marijuana use and lower IQ.
Now, this is all in good fun, and, again, I don't really care if anyone's mind gets changed. That's not really my goal.

The legalization of marijuana is an inevitability. It's going to happen and is happening. So I'm not worried about it by any means.

What I dislike is people saying "look at all of these terrible things weed does" without listing the massive amount of good it does. That's how debates work I guess.

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
It's not, actually.
I was just using it to make a point. I get it's not a medical term or anything like that, but it's common verbage. I was just trying to make a point using something everyone was familiar with.

I apologize and please accept my humblest apologies for using a poor example.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 01:07 PM   #176
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 52,657
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
It's not, actually.
My cousin said that. So one Thanksgiving I gave her three kids a bunch of pralines and divinity fudge while the adults were prepping the meal. Having observed the results I'm willing to side with folklore on this matter.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 01:19 PM   #177
DuvalHMFIC
Graduate Poster
 
DuvalHMFIC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,357
https://sciencebeta.com/cannabis-cuts-migraine-pain/
__________________
Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick.
DuvalHMFIC is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 02:09 PM   #178
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 10,212
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Absolutely not. The regular market will be half priced compared to the black market. I didn't mean to give that impression.



I was just saying that seizure for legal weed will still happen in the way it happens for others things that are legal, but used illegally. Guns are seized, despite them being legal. Cars are seized from drunken drivers, despite cars being legal, etc. So seizures wouldn't go away entirely, just at a much lower rate. However, the feds would still make heaps of money through taxation.
I'm not sure civil forfeiture laws are as all-encompassing as you believe. My understanding is assets can be seized if they're suspected of being used in support of a criminal enterprise. Drunk driver's cars can be impounded, but that's not the same thing.
Minoosh is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 02:22 PM   #179
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 7,091
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm not sure civil forfeiture laws are as all-encompassing as you believe. My understanding is assets can be seized if they're suspected of being used in support of a criminal enterprise. Drunk driver's cars can be impounded, but that's not the same thing.
I agree. I apologize as I appear to be having issues stating myself clearly. I didn't mean to imply it would be as easy as it is now, but I'm not a huge advocate of taking people's **** based on cops thinking it could have been used to further an enterprise anyway. I just meant that seizures would still take place, though not in anyway like they do now and that the tax income from weed would offset the difference. I hope that helps clear things up.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 02:46 PM   #180
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 10,212
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I agree. I apologize as I appear to be having issues stating myself clearly. I didn't mean to imply it would be as easy as it is now, but I'm not a huge advocate of taking people's **** based on cops thinking it could have been used to further an enterprise anyway. I just meant that seizures would still take place, though not in anyway like they do now and that the tax income from weed would offset the difference. I hope that helps clear things up.
As far as cognitive effects: I used to be a daily user and it didn't seem to hurt and may have helped in some endeavors, although that might have been an artifact of a relaxing ritual rather than a pharmacologic effect. But now that I use it rarely, and only with a couple of old friends, it absolutely affects my my thinking. I'll forget in mid-sentence what we are talking about. My friends, who use regularly, can always remind me, so it's not happening to them. I also never understood it being called a hallucinogen until I stopped. Though mild, it does seem to have that effect on me now. I don't use it if I have any pressing need to "maintain" during the next couple of hours.

Andrew Weil studied marijuana effects among marijuana-naive people on the Harvard campus. His conclusion, which I don't entirely buy, was that weed of the time was very close to being what he called an "active placebo." There were pharmacological effects but they were extremely mild. His conclusion was that people sort of *learn* how to get stoned from their friends, and thereafter experience the effects they've grown to expect. Among the truly marijuana-naive, in a neutral setting, they experienced next to nothing.

I certainly don't see a downside to legalization. I've thought about getting a card, but haven't. When it becomes straight-on legal in my state, maybe I'll partake more regularly.
Minoosh is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 03:45 PM   #181
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,260
Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
Paracetamol worked for me, but I now know how to stop a migraine from reaching the headache stage. No drugs, just a cold shower or some stressful activity.

A healthy diet, plenty of exercise and no drugs keep my body in shape and my mind clear.

Originally Posted by Minoosh
Andrew Weil studied marijuana...
Andrew Weil
Quote:
Medical professionals in particular have criticized Weil for promoting treatment claims and alternative medicine practices described as unverified or inefficacious, or for otherwise rejecting aspects of evidence-based medicine...

The late Barry Beyerstein of Simon Fraser University, writing in the journal Academic Medicine in 2001, criticized Weil and various aspects of complementary and alternative medicine, asserting that it held a "magical world-view"; he continued, saying,

On advocating emotional criteria for truth over criteria based on empirical data and logic, New Age medical gurus such as Andrew Weil… have convinced many that 'anything goes'… By denigrating science, these detractors have enlarged the potential following for magical and pseudoscientific health products.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 04:32 PM   #182
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,281
I have personally known people that are useless stoned as well as individuals who smoke every day and function just fine. I also know people that drink a lot and even take heroin that are very high functioning.

Christopher Hitchens was one of the most articulate intellectuals and prolific writers in the last 30 years and he drank like a fish. So maybe some people do better under the influence. That said, I'm skeptical that is true except for a minority. I'm of the belief that most of the people who make that claim are rationalizing their own use.

But rationalize away. While I use to be against decriminalization or legalization, I've come full circle and believe that keeping canabis illegal is a waste of time and resources. I also believe there are legitimate medical uses and that its use for pain management should be promoted over opiates.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 06:22 PM   #183
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,939
I've smoked pot for most of 35 years. I know I feel better all around when I quit for extended periods - 4 years once. I'm more positive - but that's just me. A lot of people I ask aren't this way, supposedly.

But it's easier to see in other people.

Working in the pot industry is very frustrating because, I'm convinced, they all smoke weed. Duh. This is changing as big money enters but it has a long way to go.

I do graphic design and security at a dispensary. Before that I grew for 8 years, there and for myself.

The HR woman screws up my schedule a lot. Really stupid mistakes. She does a lot of work though and is a smart person, but just the same, lotta mistakes. Most people smoke at lunch and I can always tell. Her too.

People I've dealt with in other dispensaries are just as bad. The people that make the packaging and print for us are dumbasses. I've done work for other printers and these guys are morons. Yes, they package exclusively for pot, in fact "marijuana" is in their business name.

I've dealt with dispensary owners, managers, distributors and it is not like doing business in any other industry. It's flaky as hell. Not everyone, but a lot.

There are times when it is normal. The employees do good work, are super friendly, and are happy while working. It's a very positive environment.

I'll just say that compared to other industries pot stands out to me in a big way as far as flakiness goes. I see it more with management and the decision makers.

But look up how much alcohol costs employers. How many people call in sick Monday, or come in hungover and are less productive. Alcohol and lost productivity is a big deal. How many drink at work? Then you have diseases that are caused by it that cost even more.

Anyone know a person suffering long term physical illness from smoking weed? Liver problems, cancer, wife beaten to death? What are the stats? Are there any? If you say vaping then I'll say it is not the pot that is causing the problems.

I managed a nightclub for five years. Guess who started all the fights, and guess who rarely/never caused any problems at all?

I'm totally pro legal weed. Any time someone complains about it all I have to ask is "do you drink alcohol?"

But as much as I like it, I see a difference while they are using. I can't say how detrimental it is though. I see it every single day. Someone comes back from lunch in a completely different mood - yep, they're high. But is there productivity down? Not sure.

And what does alcohol do to people long term? Can you reverse liver disease or throat cancer if you stop drinking?

And "dumb" is the wrong term. I know if I smoke I'm sometimes "high" at first and sitting at the computer can be a little - I dunno what. Pot is not alcohol though. I can drive on weed, work (though I usually do not), and do just about anything. Walk straight for f's sake!

If people stopped drinking and smoked weed instead it would be a net positive. Less death, less violence, less drunk uncles.

In fact, to hell with all you drinkers shooting, knifing, punching, driving, killing people daily and generally causing mayhem!

YOU should be the focus of threads like this!

YOU are the biggest problem, probably more than all other drug users combined.

Some drinkers are so snobbish towards weed. They have no reason to be.

So yay weed, boo alcohol.
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.

Last edited by mgidm86; 25th November 2019 at 06:53 PM.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 07:08 PM   #184
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 10,212
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
His marijuana study was way before his guru days. This was at Harvard in the early '60s. He had a couple of major challenges: Even then, he had a hard time finding subjects who had no prior experience with marijuana. Also, Harvard was nervous about providing weed to people who had never had it - afraid of turning squares into hopheads, apparently.

He always struck me as a pretty careful with his claims. I didn't read his later books and was kind of amazed when he became famous, as opposed to his relatively minor fame as the author of "The Natural Mind." That book has an attractive premise: People have a nearly universal desire to experience altered states of consciousness, and while drugs appear to trigger such states, our bodies can make all the chemicals it needs to switch on these various states. Drugs work because they mimic substances we already manufacture. Endorphins being a well-known example. He had a theory that relying on drugs inhibited the production of our own feel-good chemicals. Some truth to that, I think.

I walked on fire at his house. My comfort level in doing so had nothing to do with the "New Age mumbo-jumbo" (Weil's words) that the workshop leader spouted before the actual fire-walking. No, I was fairly confident because Well had an M.D. from Harvard and would know how to dress burns.

I never tried fire-walking without the mumbo-jumbo. I think it's just something we can do, related to the conductivity of heat from glowing embers.
Minoosh is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2019, 07:17 PM   #185
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 10,212
I also think this legislation should be a wildly popular bipartisan hit - except that R's will be against it just because D's proposed it.

McConnell was very instrumental in legalizing hemp farming recently. But hemp makes for lousy smoking. The stronger the rope, the weaker the dope.
Minoosh is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 06:19 AM   #186
DuvalHMFIC
Graduate Poster
 
DuvalHMFIC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,357
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
While I use to be against decriminalization or legalization, I've come full circle and believe that keeping canabis illegal is a waste of time and resources. I also believe there are legitimate medical uses and that its use for pain management should be promoted over opiates.
This is all that really matters, in my opinion. You can think pot turns people into flying spaghetti monsters for all I care, as long as you are okay with NOT telling people they can't (safely) do it.
__________________
Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick.
DuvalHMFIC is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 07:23 AM   #187
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 7,091
Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
This is all that really matters, in my opinion. You can think pot turns people into flying spaghetti monsters for all I care, as long as you are okay with NOT telling people they can't (safely) do it.
You're a better person than I. I despise people spreading, sometimes, misinformation that they think is true based on their own experiences or what they perceive as being the case.

Like I said though, the legalization of marijuana is an inevitability. By next election cycle, even without a federal rescheduling, I believe around 50% of states will have some form of recreational usage (right now it's 11 states plus DC). Perhaps not a bulk of the South, but they're like a different country pretty much anyway. I know no one ever thought it would pass in NoDak but given that Minnesota will probably implement next election cycle, it's usually just a matter of time before NoDak wants that sweet tax money too.

This was a good thread though. Everyone came in with their minds made up and everyone is walking away with the same opinion LoL. I'd say a standard USA politics thread.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 10:57 AM   #188
DuvalHMFIC
Graduate Poster
 
DuvalHMFIC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,357
Florida might get recreational use through during the next election cycle. We needed 60% and had 57% the last time it was on the ballot. But Florida isn't a typical southern state, either.
__________________
Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick.
DuvalHMFIC is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 11:26 AM   #189
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,281
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
You're a better person than I. I despise people spreading, sometimes, misinformation that they think is true based on their own experiences or what they perceive as being the case.

Like I said though, the legalization of marijuana is an inevitability. By next election cycle, even without a federal rescheduling, I believe around 50% of states will have some form of recreational usage (right now it's 11 states plus DC). Perhaps not a bulk of the South, but they're like a different country pretty much anyway. I know no one ever thought it would pass in NoDak but given that Minnesota will probably implement next election cycle, it's usually just a matter of time before NoDak wants that sweet tax money too.

This was a good thread though. Everyone came in with their minds made up and everyone is walking away with the same opinion LoL. I'd say a standard USA politics thread.
You see, I think you're the one spreading disinformation. I also think you're too optimistic on the speed of legalization for recreational use.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 11:30 AM   #190
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 48,312
Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
Florida might get recreational use through during the next election cycle. We needed 60% and had 57% the last time it was on the ballot. But Florida isn't a typical southern state, either.
It has the worlds largest white castle in preparation for that.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/busi...yfu-story.html
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 11:38 AM   #191
rockysmith76
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 496
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You see, I think you're the one spreading disinformation. I also think you're too optimistic on the speed of legalization for recreational use.
He might see more clearly if he would just down the bong. Belongs in jail.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 11:55 AM   #192
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 7,091
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You see, I think you're the one spreading disinformation. I also think you're too optimistic on the speed of legalization for recreational use.
What exactly have I said that's disinformation? Just quote what I said, and a link proving me wrong. The only argument against you and your points I've made is that it's a waste of anyone's mental faculties. Which certainly hasn't been proven as I think it's truly opinion based. You made a blanket claim, I don't believe it's true (something you even said when you said "not everyone" in a previous post), and that's about it.

Anyone can look at only the ******* negative affects of any product ever and say it's terrible. It's actually pretty god damned easy to do.

As far as being too optimistic, you can certainly believe that. The speed of recreational legalization tends to favor my outlook, but we'll see.

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
He might see more clearly if he would just down the bong. Belongs in jail.
If seeing clearly means I view the world like you I'd rather be the dirtiest son of a bitch in the world.

I've been in jail, and worse and I've still come out better than most.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

Last edited by plague311; 26th November 2019 at 11:56 AM.
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 12:15 PM   #193
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Meh. It's kind of meaningless, actually. Even if enough Dems have the gonads to pass it, Moscow Mitch will just ignore it.
And then he'll claim the Democrats aren't doing anything.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 12:16 PM   #194
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,281
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
He might see more clearly if he would just down the bong. Belongs in jail.
No he doesn't. And as much as I don't like marijuana, I know the consumption of alcohol is a far greater detriment to society than canabis use probably ever could be and it is legal.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 12:20 PM   #195
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Are you saying that anything that may have lasting effects on one's health are, de facto, things one should not do?
If one holds this and also that these things should not be illegal, how is that not a good opinion?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is plenty to class it as a drug though and as such should only be used under the care of a doctor. Anyone who uses caffeine clearly is a drug user, and you have made your stance on that clear.
At this point, it's pretty well-supported that whenever you call something "clear", that's code for "ponderingturtle made it up."
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 12:25 PM   #196
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18,749
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If one holds this and also that these things should not be illegal, how is that not a good opinion?

Because, just off the top of my head, you're recommending not doing any of the following:

Running (it's high impact, very detrimental to one's joints and has a risk of chemical dependency)

Rugby and Gridiron, in fact, any contact sport.

Intercontinental travel - Jetlag is terrible for you. As is working nights, or irregular shifts.

And a million other things.


If you decide that you should not do things solely on the basis of their possible negative effects without ever looking at the potential positive effects then you're going to spend a lot of time sitting in an empty room reading a book (but making sure, in advance, that the paper it's printed on isn't sharp enough to cut you)
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 12:25 PM   #197
DuvalHMFIC
Graduate Poster
 
DuvalHMFIC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,357
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No he doesn't. And as much as I don't like marijuana, I know the consumption of alcohol is a far greater detriment to society than canabis use probably ever could be and it is legal.
He's basically trolling at this point, you're better off ignoring him. I have seen little, if any, genuine discord in his 400 posts. Most are attention grabbers to rile people up.
__________________
Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick.
DuvalHMFIC is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 12:27 PM   #198
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Because, just off the top of my head, you're recommending not doing any of the following:

Running (it's high impact, very detrimental to one's joints and has a risk of chemical dependency)

Rugby and Gridiron, in fact, any contact sport.

Intercontinental travel - Jetlag is terrible for you. As is working nights, or irregular shifts.

And a million other things.
Ah, yes. The all-or-nothing logic.

No one said that you shouldn't do anything that could ever potentially have negative effects. But you knew that.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 12:27 PM   #199
rockysmith76
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 496
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No he doesn't. And as much as I don't like marijuana, I know the consumption of alcohol is a far greater detriment to society than canabis use probably ever could be and it is legal.
you seem very sympathetic for an abstainer.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2019, 12:28 PM   #200
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Who is getting defensive?
Well, this guy:

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
LoL Jesus ******* Christ, what a ******** thing to say.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:08 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.