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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , marijuana legalization

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Old 27th November 2019, 09:57 AM   #281
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
He's made it clear that it's his opinion based on his own experience. What more do you want? Do you want him to give you his margin of error?



Looks pretty standard to me.

Here's the real question: is he wrong, or right?
I think he has a point.
I know many members of the group he describes as well. I could never understand why they wanted to smoke so much weed, when they could be enjoying cocaine instead. To each their own I guess, but us cokeheads generally died, or grew out of it for fear of giving ourselves heart attacks.
Many of the potheads are still going strong, and as much as I love them I can only take limited exposure to the insipidness that seems to go along with that drug.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:03 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No, I am not. I've cited at least ten articles. The anecdotes are first hand experiences that I find highly valuable. What I find absurd is the argument that no one else hasn't encountered such individuals. That somehow, I have lived in a bubble of outliers.
As far I've seen (although maybe I missed something), you've just linked to articles detailing side-effects of THC. Those are all fairly well-understood by most of the population and don't do much to support your claims about marijuana users or some of your more out-there claims about its effects on them. Or, for that matter, that THC has side effects much worse than many commonly-encountered and social acceptable substances (possibly even including junk food), IMO. Nearly all of your commentary in this thread is hyperbolic rhetoric based heavily on anecdotes. I have no problem with you making that kind of argument (or holding your opinions, which I hope should go without saying), but I - and from the looks of it, plenty others in the thread - do have an issue with you pretending it's anything more than that.

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Old 27th November 2019, 10:09 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
He makes absolute claims based on extremely limited, uncontrolled observation.

He's indulging in godawful thinking. If we were on a board about knitting or horses or football I'd let it go, but we're not. He's literally countenancing a method of discovery that is the absolute antitheses of what we're supposed to be about here. It's ******* insulting, quite frankly, to bring that weakest of sauce around here and expect to get away with it.

If he wants to indulge in thinking that wooly and not get called on it, he's in the wrong place.
You say they're absurd. But aren't all of our opinions forned by our experiences which include our study? Or should we ignore what we have personally experienced and take the word of some random guy on the internet?

I get it. You think my experiences shouldn't count because I haven't come to the conclusion you have which is that cannabis use has only positive effects. That it doesn't effect memory and cognition.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:13 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You say they're absurd. But aren't all of our opinions forned by our experiences which include our study?
Not if you want them to be accurate, no. That you ask this here is sickening. (That is, yes, our opinions are formed by our experiences, but the sensible thinker always acknowledges the extremely limited scope of any personal observation and bows to proper methodology. What they don't do is double down on "My experiences represent the whole population" when it's pointed out to them that they have a knackered sample and lousy methodology)

Quote:
Or should we ignore what we have personally experienced and take the word of some random guy on the internet?
No. to assess how the world is you need controlled, unbiased sampling and well composed methodology. Everything else is subject tomassive confoundment.

Quote:
I get it.
You really don't.

Quote:
You think my experiences shouldn't count because I haven't come to the conclusion you have

No, this is not an accurate representation of the situation.


Quote:
which is that cannabis use has only positive effects. That it doesn't effect memory and cognition.

**** me but you really, really need a stats course.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:19 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
As far I've seen (although maybe I missed something), you've just linked to articles detailing side-effects of THC. Those are all fairly well-understood by most of the population and don't do much to support your claims about marijuana users or some of your more out-there claims about its effects on them. Or, for that matter, that THC has side effects much worse than many commonly-encountered and social acceptable substances (possibly even including junk food), IMO. Nearly all of your commentary in this thread is hyperbolic rhetoric based heavily on anecdotes. I have no problem with you making that kind of argument (or holding your opinions, which I hope should go without saying), but I - and from the looks of it, plenty others in the thread - do have an issue with you pretending it's anything more than that.
And each of those other commonly encountered and socially acceptable substances are pretty well known to come with negative side effects from chronic abuse as well.

You would hold that weed is above that based upon a statistic that I can easily see fails to be completely representative by simply examining the lifestyles of some weed users that I am intimately acquainted with?
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:20 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
He makes absolute claims based on extremely limited, uncontrolled observation.

He's indulging in godawful thinking. If we were on a board about knitting or horses or football I'd let it go, but we're not. He's literally countenancing a method of discovery that is the absolute antitheses of what we're supposed to be about here. It's ******* insulting, quite frankly, to bring that weakest of sauce around here and expect to get away with it.

If he wants to indulge in thinking that wooly and not get called on it, he's in the wrong place.
Absolute claims? Surely ye jest. I've been very clear that my opinions are based on my own experiences and that those experiences may not be representative. If you want to take drugs, have at it. I don't believe I have a right how to tell you how to live your life. But let's not pretend there isn't possible negative effects from taking drugs.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:22 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Absolute claims? Surely ye jest. I've been very clear that my opinions are based on my own experiences and that those experiences may not be representative. If you want to take drugs, have at it. I don't believe I have a right how to tell you how to live your life. But let's not pretend there isn't possible negative effects from taking drugs.

Nobody's said there are no negative effects, as I understand it.

You being quite strident in insisting there's no upside at all, is the only absolute I've seen in this thread.


There are negative side effects to pretty much everything up to and including walking and breathing. Negative side effects alone do not make a thing 'bad'
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:26 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
He's pretty much entirely wrong about distribution. Which is what knackered sample sizes will do, yes. He's entirely wrong in his outlook. And that's because he's employed godawful thinking to get there.
I was expecting a more substantive demonstration.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:26 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Not if you want them to be accurate, no. That you ask this here is sickening. (That is, yes, our opinions are formed by our experiences, but the sensible thinker always acknowledges the extremely limited scope of any personal observation and bows to proper methodology. What they don't do is double down on "My experiences represent the whole population" when it's pointed out to them that they have a knackered sample and lousy methodology)
EXCEPT THERE ARE STUDIES THAT SAY CANNABIS AFFECTS, COGNITION AND MEMORY. THERE ARE STUDIES THAT SAY THAT USE MAY LEAD TO LOWER IQs.

So let's not pretend that my experiences are totally out in left field.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:28 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Nobody's said there are no negative effects, as I understand it.

You being quite strident in insisting there's no upside at all, is the only absolute I've seen in this thread.


There are negative side effects to pretty much everything up to and including walking and breathing. Negative side effects alone do not make a thing 'bad'
You're going to compare drug use to walking?
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:28 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I was expecting a more substantive demonstration.
I'm not rehashing all of the information that's already been supplied in the thread, sorry.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:28 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You being quite strident in insisting there's no upside at all, is the only absolute I've seen in this thread.
Then you haven't been paying attention, or you're not being honest.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm not rehashing all of the information that's already been supplied in the thread, sorry.
A link, perhaps?
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:31 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
EXCEPT THERE ARE STUDIES THAT SAY CANNABIS AFFECTS, COGNITION AND MEMORY. THERE ARE STUDIES THAT SAY THAT USE MAY LEAD TO LOWER IQs.
Your point?

Quote:
So let's not pretend that my experiences are totally out in left field.
Let's not pretend they in any way represent any reality other than your own. let us understand that the method by which you gathered your information makes your experiences and your conclusion only valid in that, tiny arena.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:32 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're going to compare drug use to walking?
That's not what I said. That's not even a little bit like what I said.

I'm out.

Have a nice day.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:36 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
And each of those other commonly encountered and socially acceptable substances are pretty well known to come with negative side effects from chronic abuse as well.

You would hold that weed is above that based upon a statistic that I can easily see fails to be completely representative by simply examining the lifestyles of some weed users that I am intimately acquainted with?
What are you talking about? I haven't said anything in this thread about weed's safety, or the social value of legalizing it. I've strictly been commenting on acbytesla's abysmally poor reasoning and arguments.

You're trying to drag me into an argument I have no interest in, and, frankly, see as ridiculous. Weed is one of many, many substances/activities out there with potential negative side effects, especially when abused. I see no value in restricting people's autonomy, or treating any substance/activity as either inherently good or bad when it involves a personal cost-benefit analysis. That's all I'll say about that, because, again, it's not a discussion I'm interested in having, and I don't think my opinion should really mean anything to others.

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Old 27th November 2019, 10:37 AM   #296
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I thought wacky tobaccy was supposed to make you druggies mellow? Sheesh, take a chill pill. Provided said pill is FDA approved and prescribed by a licensed physician according to applicable law and medical practice guidelines.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:50 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Your point?
Those are pretty damn good reasons to abstain.
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Let's not pretend they in any way represent any reality other than your own. let us understand that the method by which you gathered your information makes your experiences and your conclusion only valid in that, tiny arena.
And let's not pretend they don't. Let's not pretend that people aren't rationalizing the use of chemicals that they know affects their ability to remember. Which seems to me is a pretty important brain function.
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:03 AM   #298
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I was gonna make a good point here but I forgot what it was.
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:08 AM   #299
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For me, pot falls into the same area as gay marriage and abortion: I think all three should be legal to do, but I personally disapprove on philosophical grounds while having no interest in converting others into agreement with me.

I would outlaw tobacco, though. The demonstrable harm pushes it out of personal philosophy and into public policy.
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:09 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why, though? He has a tentative conclusion based on limited observation. He hasn't made a statistical claim, to the best of my knowledge.
He has represented an entire culture of people based on the persona of the stereotypical stoner in movies or that he's met. That's statistical in that he's including everyone that smokes weed.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I get it. You think my experiences shouldn't count because I haven't come to the conclusion you have which is that cannabis use has only positive effects. That it doesn't effect memory and cognition.
Literally ******* no one has said that. It's a strawman. Drop it. It's complete and total ********.

Let me make this clear. I haven't, nor has anyone else, ever argued that there are no side effects to marijuana. If you believe that's the case, link to the ******* post. Unless you do that, drop this terrible nonsense. The only argument that I, and others, have presented is to dispute that 1) it's a waste of one's faculties (it's not) 2) your methods are whack as Vanilla Ice.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
EXCEPT THERE ARE STUDIES THAT SAY CANNABIS AFFECTS, COGNITION AND MEMORY. THERE ARE STUDIES THAT SAY THAT USE MAY LEAD TO LOWER IQs.
Link to them because I specifically linked to one that said this claim is complete and total ********. I'll wait.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I thought wacky tobaccy was supposed to make you druggies mellow? Sheesh, take a chill pill. Provided said pill is FDA approved and prescribed by a licensed physician according to applicable law and medical practice guidelines.
Yeah, like opioids!

As we all know, legal pills have never been abused or been known to have side effects that (while negative) are outweighed by the positives.
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:10 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
I was gonna make a good point here but I forgot what it was. I got high
FTFY
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:38 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post


Let me make this clear. I haven't, nor has anyone else, ever argued that there are no side effects to marijuana. If you believe that's the case, link to the ******* post. Unless you do that, drop this terrible nonsense. The only argument that I, and others, have presented is to dispute that 1) it's a waste of one's faculties (it's not) 2) your methods are whack as Vanilla Ice.

Link to them because I specifically linked to one that said this claim is complete and total ********. I'll wait.
So who's mind is closed? You read a study and just decided it was bs.
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:43 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
So who's mind is closed? You read a study and just decided it was bs.
Yours. Your mind is closed.

I'm basing my statements on factual evidence that is verifiable through a link I provided here. It says that your claim that marijuana lowers IQ is completely false.

On the flip side. You've made a claim, presented **** all to support it, and then continue to make it after being called out (twice) with evidence the refutes it.

So, yes, the answer is still you.
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:53 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Yours. Your mind is closed.

I'm basing my statements on factual evidence that is verifiable through a link I provided here. It says that your claim that marijuana lowers IQ is completely false.

On the flip side. You've made a claim, presented **** all to support it, and then continue to make it after being called out (twice) with evidence the refutes it.

So, yes, the answer is still you.
Try this one then. I'm sure youll dismiss it too.
Quote:
Of additional interest, those participants who used marijuana from a young age had highly abnormal brain function in areas related to visuo-spatial processing, memory, self-referential activity and reward processing. The study found that early marijuana use was also associated with lower IQ scores.

"These findings suggest that using marijuana does not correct the brain abnormalities or symptoms of depression and using it from an early age may have an abnormal effect not only on brain function, but also on IQ," said Dr. Osuch.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1005160733.htm
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Old 27th November 2019, 12:06 PM   #305
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There are negative side effects to marijuana. Most are minor and temporary. With the possible exception of using while your brain is still developing, it doesn't cause permanent effects on the brain or lower your IQ

It is less harmful than most other drugs illegal and legal. With alcohol you have some people who exaggerate or act more drunk than can really be attributed to the drug. Similarly some people who use marijuana exaggerate or act like the stereotypical stoner more than can be attributed to the drug.

Like anything that enters our bodies, different people can be impacted to a different degree. Some people use often and are very responsible, successful, and well adjusted. Some are not. Personally I think it tends to amplify traits a person already has, though as far as I know there is not scientific evidence to back that up. But basically if someone is already a bit lazy or has poor control when it comes to diet, marijuana can exacerbate those traits.

Those who are personally against it tend to inflate the negative effects and those who use it tend to diminish the negative effects.

Regardless it should be legal

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Old 27th November 2019, 12:10 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Try this one then. I'm sure youll dismiss it too.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1005160733.htm
I don't dismiss it, I'm not sure why it took 3 requests and 5 ******* pages to get it, but at least now your claim is based on something. That being said, this mostly refers to children that smoke (15 and younger according to the study) that have been tracked through their teens to adulthood. Basically, teenagers that smoke while their brains are maturing. Your average adult is going to show no drop in IQ if they smoke, again, according to your study.

Long story short, I'd say drop it. There are scientific claims on both sides of the aisle and I would say it hasn't been confirmed or rejected. So we're basically back to you saying it's a waste of mental faculties and my stance of that being total and complete ********.

It's been a fun thread for sure.
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Old 27th November 2019, 12:24 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
There are negative side effects to marijuana. Most are minor and temporary. With the possible exception of using while your brain is still developing, it doesn't cause permanent effects on the brain or lower your IQ

It is less harmful than most other drugs illegal and legal. With alcohol you have some people who exaggerate or act more drunk than can really be attributed to the drug. Similarly some people who use marijuana exaggerate or act like the stereotypical stoner more than can be attributed to the drug.

Like anything that enters our bodies, different people can be impacted to a different degree. Some people use often and are very responsible, successful, and well adjusted. Some are not. Personally I think it tends to amplify traits a person already has, though as far as I know there is not scientific evidence to back that up. But basically if someone is already a bit lazy or has poor control when it comes to diet, marijuana can exacerbate those traits.

Those who are personally against it tend to inflate the negative effects and those who use it tend to diminish the negative effects.

Regardless it should be legal
I know this about both alcohol and cannabis. Both cloud my brain when I used them. Although I never got sick and puked my guts out smoking.
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Old 27th November 2019, 12:30 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I know this about both alcohol and cannabis. Both cloud my brain when I used them. Although I never got sick and puked my guts out smoking.
The best part to me, I've never, ever gotten high and wanted to destroy anything other than a delicious club sandwich.
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Old 27th November 2019, 12:57 PM   #309
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The best part to me, I've never, ever gotten high and wanted to destroy anything other than a delicious club sandwich.
I also never had to break up a fight of two stoners. When I tended bar, it was a regular occurrence. Something about alcohol and testosterone levels of young men that don't mix well.

You also never seem to hear about someone getting stoned and beating his wife.
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Old 27th November 2019, 01:21 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The best part to me, I've never, ever gotten high and wanted to destroy anything other than a delicious club sandwich.
I have

I've wanted to murder my whole crew...

in the video game I was playing
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Old 27th November 2019, 01:24 PM   #311
The_Animus
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I also never had to break up a fight of two stoners. When I tended bar, it was a regular occurrence. Something about alcohol and testosterone levels of young men that don't mix well.

You also never seem to hear about someone getting stoned and beating his wife.
This reminds me of a comic I drew in high school. It depicted a pot leaf looking person relaxing on a park bench getting harassed by police while in the background there was a beer bottle looking person brutally beating someone.
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Old 27th November 2019, 01:47 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
This reminds me of a comic I drew in high school. It depicted a pot leaf looking person relaxing on a park bench getting harassed by police while in the background there was a beer bottle looking person brutally beating someone.
There's a whole song by Mike Skinner on thie topic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0or9-xYdU0k
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Old 27th November 2019, 02:01 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
This reminds me of a comic I drew in high school. It depicted a pot leaf looking person relaxing on a park bench getting harassed by police while in the background there was a beer bottle looking person brutally beating someone.
It is basically is why I changed my stance on decriminalization. I use to be very much in favor of keeping it illegal. Not because I thought it was necessarily worse than alchohol. But because I believed that removing the penalties and the stigma would lead to greater use. That we would be making legal another trap for humanity.

I just came to the conclusion that people could and would find that trap anyway. And two, policing, judicial administration and imprisonment as well as the stigma associated with such things is expensive and counterproductive. Cannabis is one of the most widely used drugs in the world. It's like putting your finger in a dike. Not really effective.
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Old 28th November 2019, 03:33 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
He has represented an entire culture of people based on the persona of the stereotypical stoner in movies or that he's met. That's statistical in that he's including everyone that smokes weed.
It's like saying that everyone who eats a lot of red meat is going to get cancer. Sure, it's not true of all of them, but statistically they're more at risk. Cue red meat enthousiasts insisting that those posts are BS.
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Old 28th November 2019, 04:16 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I just came to the conclusion that people could and would find that trap anyway. And two, policing, judicial administration and imprisonment as well as the stigma associated with such things is expensive and counterproductive. Cannabis is one of the most widely used drugs in the world. It's like putting your finger in a dike. Not really effective.
This is basically the argument for legalising/decriminalising all drugs - people are going to do them anyway. Legalising them takes control out of the hands of criminals and makes people safer because they can be certain of quality control and purity, and also that they're not taking something even more dangerous than the alternative (see, for example, the "legal highs" controversy from a few years ago in the UK). Treating drug problems as medical problems rather than legal problems is also far more effective at getting people off harmful drugs.

Of course, this doesn't mean that it's a perfect solution, although there are those who espouse it as one. There are inherent problems in legalising everything, and there will always be a black market for things which are perfectly legal.

But the fact of the matter is that these drugs already exist, nobody can wish heroin (for example) out of existence, so the question is "how do we best protect people?" As far as I've ever seen, the best answer is to legalise/decriminalise all recreational drugs, educate people thoroughly about them as early as possible, and treat drug problems as a medical issue.

Oh, incidentally, you don't have to reach very far to find a negative effect of smoking marijuana - it gives you cancer. Smoking anything will likely give you cancer.
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Old 28th November 2019, 06:33 AM   #316
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I wouldn't be at all surprised that smoking some MJ causes cancer, but from most of the articles I've read, the jury is still out. This has a lot to do with the fact that it's difficult to study something that was illegal for so long. Self-reporting isn't very reliable, many people who smoked weed also smoked tobacco, etc. I think, now, with it being legal in many places, the research will be much more sound over the next 10-15 years. And just for measure, while it would seem like a no-brainer that smoking ANYTHING could cause cancer, animal research suggests that some chemicals in marijuana work against tumor growth, which could explain why lung cancer isn’t showing up as often as scientists might expect in people who smoke it.

But yes, at the end of the day, I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that it can cause cancer. While you smoke less of it than you would tobacco, you also hold it in, and you usually smoke the "tarry" part as you don't let any go to waste. As I understand it, the tarry part (resin?) is more dangerous. Tobacco smokers usually throw out a cigarette before smoking this portion.
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:14 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
...you also hold it in
You shouldn't. There's no benefit, or so I've read.
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:24 AM   #318
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The bigger the cushion, the sweeter the pushin'
That's what I said
The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand
Or, so I have read.
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:32 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
I wouldn't be at all surprised that smoking some MJ causes cancer,
Let's face it, putting recently burnt hot smoke into your lungs, whatever it comes from, can't be good, can it?
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:33 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
The bigger the cushion, the sweeter the pushin'
That's what I said
The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand
Or, so I have read.

Can I just go over these measurements you've given me for this Stonehenge replica..?
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