[Continuation] House Impeachment Inquiry - part 2 - Page 8

TragicMonkey · 2nd December 2019, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

To me it implies that mainstream journalism is full of whores who print propaganda for money.

Fans of Russia Today know propaganda when they see it!

Steve · 2nd December 2019, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

To me it implies that mainstream journalism is full of whores who print propaganda for money.

Do you agree with that implication?

If a person thinks that is true why imply it? why not just say so?

A person who thinks that is true should never link to a news article to support their own position.

phiwum · 2nd December 2019, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

Do you agree with that implication?

If a person thinks that is true why imply it? why not just say so?

A person who thinks that is true should never link to a news article to support their own position.

I'm not one to defend Childlike Empress nor the use of silly terms like "pre$$titute", but I think that's as explicit an implication as one could want. It's not a subtle term with ambiguous meaning.

Of course, the articles Childlike Empress links to are by real, dedicated and upright journalists. It is the other journalists who are pre$$titutes.

theprestige · 2nd December 2019, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

Do you agree with that implication?

Why? Do you want to argue with me about it? Let's back up a moment. I'm offering what I think is a better interpretation than Fast Eddie B's. That's all. I'm not even asking you to agree with it. The fact that you're even considering the alternative is enough for me.

Quote:

If a person thinks that is true why imply it? why not just say so?

Don't know, don't care.

Quote:

A person who thinks that is true should never link to a news article to support their own position.

Not my monkey, not my circus.

WilliamSeger · 2nd December 2019, 09:59 AM

Unsurprisingly, the Impeachment Debate is easily summarized:

Belz... · 2nd December 2019, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

Unsurprisingly, the Impeachment Debate is easily summarized:

https://i.imgur.com/KPNaOyp.png

I like the little note at the bottom.

acbytesla · 2nd December 2019, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

I would be embarrassed to admit that I have no chance to win unless everyone makes sure I'm treated fairly .

He doesn't want to be treated "fairly". He's Daddy's special boy and should be able to get away with anything and everything.

acbytesla · 2nd December 2019, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

To me it implies that mainstream journalism is full of whores who print propaganda for money.

Ahhh!.... There it is! The koolaid has had its effect. The walking zombies of Trump supporters. Trump says "Fake news" enough times and they're mesmerized.

Everyone is lying but Trump. The press, the FBI, the CIA, the State Department.

Belz... · 2nd December 2019, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Ahhh!.... There it is! The koolaid has had its effect. The walking zombies of Trump supporters. Trump says "Fake news" enough times and they're mesmerized.

Everyone is lying but Trump. The press, the FBI, the CIA, the State Department.

Theprestige is, however, describing CE's point, not necessarily his own.

Regnad Kcin · 2nd December 2019, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by varwoche

Rudy is trying to explain the business deals he was pursuing from the same officials he was pressing to smear the Bidens. There was an offer from X but I didn't take it but then I thought about an offer from Y and then... It comes across like Elaine explaining that Art Vandelay is an importer AND an exporter.

...

smartcooky · 2nd December 2019, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Ahhh!.... There it is! The koolaid has had its effect. The walking zombies of Trump supporters. Trump says "Fake news" enough times and they're mesmerized.

Everyone is lying but Trump. The press, the FBI, the CIA, the State Department.

...the NSA, all of the Five Eyes partners, the Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee, all of the twelve Foreign Service officials who testified at the hearings... all lied. Only Der Trumpenführer is telling the truth - and even if he isn't well there is noting wrong with that because he is the Trump Zombies' "Dear Leader", above both reproach and The Law.

Captain_Swoop · 2nd December 2019, 11:54 AM

Trump Tweets

“The American people are going to see this for what it is. It is a political effort by the Democrats, and the President certainly doesn’t have to aid in the Impeachment effort.” Robert Ray @MariaBartiromo
Democrats are getting “killed” in their home districts. 2020!

Breaking News: The President of Ukraine has just again announced that President Trump has done nothing wrong with respect to Ukraine and our interactions or calls. If the Radical Left Democrats were sane, which they are not, it would be case over!

“When the law enforcers turn out to be the law breakers, then we have totally upended the rule of law. Nobody is safe and everybody is in trouble. Our system of government is under attack.” @GovMikeHuckabee

The Do Nothing Democrats get 3 Constitutional lawyers for their Impeachment hoax (they will need them!), the Republicans get one. Oh, that sounds fair!

Thank you to Congressman Ben @Cline4Virginia for the Great remarks this morning on the illegitimate Impeachment Hoax. He understands the Do Nothing Democrats very well. Also, and as usual, @RepAndyBiggsAZ was fantastic!

The Republican Party has NEVER been so united! This Impeachment Scam is just a continuation of the 3 year Witch Hunt, but it is only bringing us even closer together!

Great job by @RepDougCollins of Georgia over the weekend in representing the Republican Party, and myself, against the Impeachment Hoax!

theprestige · 2nd December 2019, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Everyone is lying but Trump.

Everyone is lying including Trump. But I was just describing what I understand to be CE's position. You need to stop thinking of it as my position.

smartcooky · 2nd December 2019, 12:13 PM

"The most important impeachment story that most of the press continues to look away from is the fact that one of our two major political parties in this country no longer deals in facts and reality, and instead has willingly burrowed itself into a world of lies and fantasy, specifically when it comes to the issues surrounding impeachment.

In fact, some Republican officials are now actively working alongside a Kremlin disinformation campaign regarding Ukraine's role in American elections.

If more journalists openly acknowledged this crucial development regarding the GOP, the fact that Republicans aren't willing to support impeachment would no longer be treated as "news," and the press wouldn't portray Democrats as failing with their impeachment messaging. What's also completely lacking is any kind of historical context regarding how awful those impeachment poll numbers are for Trump.

When Republicans in the House spent 1998 impeaching Bill Clinton, Americans across the board rejected the inquiry. At no point during the partisan process did more than 30% of Americans support impeachment, and most of the time that number hovered around 25%. Republicans categorically failed to change the nation's mind about Clinton, who famously weathered the political storm with historically high approval ratings, logging a staggering 71% approval rating in a Pew Research poll.

Today, more than twice as many Americans support the impeachment of a Republican president than supported the impeachment of a Democratic president two decades ago. Yet the press portrays the Trump impeachment as a political and public relations failure for Democrats. How does that work exactly? Note that it wasn't until July 1974, one month before President Richard Nixon resigned, that a plurality of Americans finally agreed that he should be forced from office. Today, a plurality already feels that way about Trump, yet the press shrugs."

You can read the whole article here

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/201...paign=trending

Skeptic Ginger · 2nd December 2019, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump will not participate in impeachment hearing, White House says

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50625550

So predictable

Waah! the Democrats are holding hearings in secret.
Waah! the Democrats are holding hearings in public.
Waah! the Democrats won't let Trump testify, call witnesses, or have his lawyers there.
Waah! the Democrats are holding a sham hearing, I won't participate.

Skeptic Ginger · 2nd December 2019, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by phiwum

This has nothing to do with his attendance.

The lawyers said they won't bother with a hearing on the history and legal issues of impeachment. They have not said whether they will attend later hearings. Even if they do, there's no reason to think that Trump will be there.

Honestly, not attending Wednesday's session is reasonable. If the attorneys think the case against impeachment and/or removal won't be based on legal considerations of what constitutes an impeachable offense, then they have little reason to attend. Not sure how they intend to make their case, really. Probably leave it to the GOP Senators to come up with some reason for the nigh inevitable acquittal.

Are you seriously defending Trump's BS dodges?

Minoosh · 2nd December 2019, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Easy. There's nothing in it for Trump.

Except it would signal his minions that it's OK to commit federal crimes undertaken to protect Trump, and that stonewalling will be rewarded. But that's only good as long as Trump remains in office, and quite a few must not think that's a slam-dunk.

It's the other side of witness intimidation.

Meanwhile, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Mike Pence has signed a legal document promising to pardon Trump for any federal offenses Trump may find himself charged with.

acbytesla · 2nd December 2019, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Everyone is lying including Trump. But I was just describing what I understand to be CE's position. You need to stop thinking of it as my position.

Sorry. But one doesn't make the other true. I don't buy that all these other institutions are lying. That false equivalence is a pile of fecal matter.

I don't buy that

Russia expert for the National Security Council Fiona Hill
Ambassador Yovanovitch
Special Envoy to the Ukraine Kurt Volker
Intelligence community inspector general Michael Atkinson
Deputy Assistant Secretary George Kent
Senior adviser to Secretary of State Michael McKinley
Ambassador Bill Taylor
Deputy assistant secretary of defense Laura Cooper
Acting assistant secretary of European and Eurasian affairs Philip Reeker
Army Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman
Special adviser to Kurt Volker Christopher Anderson
National Security Council senior director for Europe and Russia Tim Morrison
Special adviser to Vice President Mike Pence for Europe Russia Jennifer Williams
Political counselor at U.S. embassy in Ukraine David Holmes

are all lying.

Although it appears that Ambassador Sondland perjured himself again when he testified about a phone call where Trump said he wanted nothing from Ukraine. There are absolutely NO records of that call. None.

This game where Trump supporters ignore reality or try and say "everyone does it" is sad and it's dangerous.

Skeptic Ginger · 2nd December 2019, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

Unsurprisingly, the Impeachment Debate is easily summarized:

Belz... · 2nd December 2019, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Everyone is lying including Trump.

Pointless equivocation. One person tells his wife he loves her chocolate pudding, another lies about giving nuclear codes to terrorists. But everybody lies, right?

Skeptic Ginger · 2nd December 2019, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Except it would signal his minions that it's OK to commit federal crimes undertaken to protect Trump, and that stonewalling will be rewarded. But that's only good as long as Trump remains in office, and quite a few must not think that's a slam-dunk.

It's the other side of witness intimidation.

Meanwhile, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Mike Pence has signed a legal document promising to pardon Trump for any federal offenses Trump may find himself charged with.

I don't think there's a direct route in rewards for Trump in the highlighted ^.

theprestige · 2nd December 2019, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

"The most important impeachment story that most of the press continues to look away from is the fact that one of our two major political parties in this country no longer deals in facts and reality, and instead has willingly burrowed itself into a world of lies and fantasy, specifically when it comes to the issues surrounding impeachment.

In fact, some Republican officials are now actively working alongside a Kremlin disinformation campaign regarding Ukraine's role in American elections.

If more journalists openly acknowledged this crucial development regarding the GOP, the fact that Republicans aren't willing to support impeachment would no longer be treated as "news," and the press wouldn't portray Democrats as failing with their impeachment messaging. What's also completely lacking is any kind of historical context regarding how awful those impeachment poll numbers are for Trump.

Interesting analysis! Especially in the context of our discussion about the press. Do you think Kos is right, and the press really is looking away from the most important story? Why would they do that? Corruption? Incompetence?

Belz... · 2nd December 2019, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Interesting analysis! Especially in the context of our discussion about the press. Do you think Kos is right, and the press really is looking away from the most important story? Why would they do that? Corruption? Incompetence?

A desperate desire to appear neutral, perhaps?

theprestige · 2nd December 2019, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

A desperate desire to appear neutral, perhaps?

Perhaps. But why would the press be desperate? And since when is neutrality incompatible with reporting the most important stories?

PhantomWolf · 2nd December 2019, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Interesting analysis! Especially in the context of our discussion about the press. Do you think Kos is right, and the press really is looking away from the most important story? Why would they do that? Corruption? Incompetence?

Media today has had it drilled into them that they have to be "fair" and have taken that to mean that they have to treat each side as if they are as equal in validity. It's not just politics either. See how the media treats the stupidity of things like Flat Earth.

It means that regardless of how much evidence there is for one side, and how crazy the other is, the Media have to treat them as equivalent or else they are accused of being biased and unfair.

Minoosh · 2nd December 2019, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Interesting analysis! Especially in the context of our discussion about the press. Do you think Kos is right, and the press really is looking away from the most important story? Why would they do that? Corruption? Incompetence?

Extreme partisanship is incompatible with the appearance of neutrality. Therefore it's problematic to present an article developing the idea that the biggest story is that Republicans are a bunch of whores getting paid to spread propaganda for money. You absolutely don't have to believe this, but my experience is that many reporters are committed to being as fair as possible. They also want to get the facts right. And if they fail, they write corrections. Do you think politicians come anywhere close to this standard?

Reporters get paid because it's their job. If they work for an openly partisan media outlet, they will write articles with a partisan slant. But if they're a ~~major~~ middle-of-the-road daily, network or cable news outlet, they will take pains to present "both sides." They can find people who will say that the problem is that Republicans have become irredeemable scum-suckers, but then they feel duty-bound to find someone to present the " other side." And they will find people who say that's all wrong, it's the Democrats who are irredeemable scrum-sucking whores. So you end up with a "he said, she said" story, which doesn't illuminate anything. And that's unsatisfying for both the writer and the reader.

Kos is just venting. They know very well why major news outlets are ignoring the so-called story.

I haven't actually read the piece, though. Just going by excerpts.

A critic is entitled to believe that the mainstream news media is biased, but I hope they check their own preferred outlets for signs of bias as well. I'm not naive enough to say that everyone in the MSM wants to be fair, but a lot do. It's part of their own deep idealism.

The real bias IMO is not conservative vs. liberal. It's more that the media is biased toward sensationalism, conflict and drama. They want ears, eyeballs and clicks. Like most businesses, they want metrics to assess if they are executing their business plan. I grew disenchanted with CNN's wall-to-wall Trump coverage a long time ago, but when it comes to direct quotes or excerpts from documents, it's usually OK.

There's no easy fix for that potential problem except to practice a certain amount of skepticism. Check what other outlets are saying. Get a less-filtered view from C-SPAN. Seek out sources that aren't so U.S.-centric. Try the PBS News Hour for a more in-depth treatment. Etc. A lot of people aren't going to bother, but some will.

smartcooky · 2nd December 2019, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Media today has had it drilled into them that they have to be "fair" and have taken that to mean that they have to treat each side as if they are as equal in validity. It's not just politics either. See how the media treats the stupidity of things like Flat Earth.

It means that regardless of how much evidence there is for one side, and how crazy the other is, the Media have to treat them as equivalent or else they are accused of being biased and unfair.

This is exactly why they are ignoring the really big story

Once, the Republicans were the party of defending America against the Red Threat - the defenders of Democracy and Capitalism and Human Rights, the party that carried out espionage against the old adversary, Russia (in the guise of the Soviet Union), the party that fought the Cold War in order to prevent Nuclear War.

Now they are the party of collusion. It wasn't just the Trump campaign that conspired with the Russians, the whole damn party is in cahoots with those very same Russians; parroting Putin's talking points and and helping to spread his conspiracy theories.

As a side note; they are also the party of cruelty, inspired by Stephen "Heinrich" Miller whose white supremacist stance drives the abject cruelty we are seeing at the southern border. I never thought that, in my lifetime, an American government would separate thousands of children from their families, and then imprison them in cages. Its a disgrace

Captain_Swoop · 2nd December 2019, 03:37 PM

Trump Tweets

Just landed in the United Kingdom, heading to London for NATO meetings tomorrow. Prior to landing I read the Republicans Report on the Impeachment Hoax. Great job! Radical Left has NO CASE. Read the Transcripts. Shouldn’t even be allowed. Can we go to Supreme Court to stop?

Fast Eddie B · 2nd December 2019, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Can we go to Supreme Court to stop?

Ummmm....no.

Minoosh · 2nd December 2019, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump Tweets

Just landed in the United Kingdom, heading to London for NATO meetings tomorrow. Prior to landing I read the Republicans Report on the Impeachment Hoax. Great job! Radical Left has NO CASE. Read the Transcripts. Shouldn’t even be allowed. Can we go to Supreme Court to stop?

If he's floating this as a trial balloon, I'm hoping his lawyers will pounce.

phiwum · 2nd December 2019, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Ahhh!.... There it is! The koolaid has had its effect. The walking zombies of Trump supporters. Trump says "Fake news" enough times and they're mesmerized.

Everyone is lying but Trump. The press, the FBI, the CIA, the State Department.

theprestige was just saying what CE meant. He didn't say whether he agrees or not.

Childlike Empress · 2nd December 2019, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by phiwum

theprestige was just saying what CE meant. He didn't say whether he agrees or not.

And he was close to it but as always it is more complicated.

I wasn't sharing an article like you said, though, I was drawing attention to the FOIA releases about Giuliani's activities and subsequently narrowed the realm of interesting information. Going further on that road, we learn what the two prosecutor generals, Shokin, the one who was fired due to quid pro quo pressure by creepy Uncle Joe (the talking points why that happened are just too dumb to repeat), and his predecessor Lutsenko, who stopped the investigations into Burisma, said about the events taking place - explicitly agreeing with each other. Followed by an interesting timeline apparently compiled by Rudy himself.

So this is not information received through any "journalist" or "pre$$titute" filter, but things you can learn about by yourselves more easily thanks to me.

Suddenly · 2nd December 2019, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Ummmm....no.

The sad thing is that it would probably be 5-4.

People keep underestimating the depth of conservative nihilism.

slyjoe · 2nd December 2019, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump Tweets

Just landed in the United Kingdom, heading to London for NATO meetings tomorrow. Prior to landing I read the Republicans Report on the Impeachment Hoax. Great job! Radical Left has NO CASE. Read the Transcripts. Shouldn’t even be allowed. Can we go to Supreme Court to stop?

Obvious lie.

Stacyhs · 2nd December 2019, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump Tweets

Just landed in the United Kingdom, heading to London for NATO meetings tomorrow. Prior to landing I read the Republicans Report on the Impeachment Hoax. Great job! Radical Left has NO CASE. Read the Transcripts. Shouldn’t even be allowed. Can we go to Supreme Court to stop?

LOL! Like Trump would have read the 123 page report! He had his lickspittles tell him what was in in it.

phiwum · 2nd December 2019, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Perhaps. But why would the press be desperate? And since when is neutrality incompatible with reporting the most important stories?

The desire to appear neutral can be incompatible with any story where the facts really are on one side. The obvious way to convey neutrality is giving air time to "both sides", but in some issues, one side really is on the side of the facts.

An example is climate change. There are no legitimate arguments that climate change isn't happening and there is ample evidence that it is caused by man's alteration of the environment. A journalist committed to appearing neutral may be tempted to give air time to poor arguments contrary to the evidence, while the audience may not be well-informed or competent enough to recognize the weakness of such arguments. The result is the appearance of controversy where there is none.

Now, whether that applies to press coverage of impeachment is a matter of perspective. I watched MTP Daily today and, while it's not strictly speaking a news program, I thought the host (Tur) could have toned down her opinions a bit for a better presentation. My point here is not about impeachment coverage but a simple observation that the desire to appear neutral can lead to misleading reporting in some instances.

phiwum · 2nd December 2019, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

And he was close to it but as always it is more complicated.

I wasn't sharing an article like you said, though, I was drawing attention to the FOIA releases about Giuliani's activities and subsequently narrowed the realm of interesting information. Going further on that road, we learn what the two prosecutor generals, Shokin, the one who was fired due to quid pro quo pressure by creepy Uncle Joe (the talking points why that happened are just too dumb to repeat), and his predecessor Lutsenko, who stopped the investigations into Burisma, said about the events taking place - explicitly agreeing with each other. Followed by an interesting timeline apparently compiled by Rudy himself.

So this is not information received through any "journalist" or "pre$$titute" filter, but things you can learn about by yourselves more easily thanks to me.

I didn't say that you were sharing an article in the recent post. You have shared articles before, and presumably those are by good and upright journalists, not "pre$$titutes".

Craig4 · 2nd December 2019, 06:41 PM

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/02/polit...iry/index.html

Wow, who'd have thought there were Trumptrash who could write?

Stacyhs · 2nd December 2019, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/02/polit...iry/index.html

Wow, who'd have thought there were Trumptrash who could write?

Their report reminds me of defense lawyers in court:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the prosecution's security camera video of my client pulling out his gun and shooting the deceased in the back doesn't prove, in any way, that my client actually killed the victim. Mr. Smith was still alive when taken to the hospital by ambulance but was deceased upon arrival. Who's to say the EMT's are not responsible for Mr. Smith's death? Of course the EMT's deny they caused Mr. Smith's death, but did anyone witness them actually trying to save Mr. Smith's life? NO! How dare the prosecution try to pin this on my client!

acbytesla · 2nd December 2019, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Their report reminds me of defense lawyers in court:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the prosecution's security camera video of my client pulling out his gun and shooting the deceased in the back doesn't prove, in any way, that my client actually killed the victim. Mr. Smith was still alive when taken to the hospital by ambulance but was deceased upon arrival. Who's to say the EMT's are not responsible for Mr. Smith's death? Of course the EMT's deny they caused Mr. Smith's death, but did anyone witness them actually trying to save Mr. Smith's life? NO! How dare the prosecution try to pin this on my client!

The Republicans today. Gaslighting the world.

2nd December 2019, 07:48 AM	#281
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles July Co-Pither, August TLA & Co-Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 52,441	Originally Posted by theprestige To me it implies that mainstream journalism is full of whores who print propaganda for money. Fans of Russia Today know propaganda when they see it!
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

2nd December 2019, 08:16 AM	#282
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,072	Originally Posted by theprestige To me it implies that mainstream journalism is full of whores who print propaganda for money. Do you agree with that implication? If a person thinks that is true why imply it? why not just say so? A person who thinks that is true should never link to a news article to support their own position.
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,072	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

2nd December 2019, 10:29 AM	#286
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 86,779	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger Unsurprisingly, the Impeachment Debate is easily summarized: https://i.imgur.com/KPNaOyp.png I like the little note at the bottom.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

2nd December 2019, 11:01 AM	#287
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 23,178	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza I would be embarrassed to admit that I have no chance to win unless everyone makes sure I'm treated fairly . He doesn't want to be treated "fairly". He's Daddy's special boy and should be able to get away with anything and everything.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

2nd December 2019, 11:08 AM	#288
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 23,178	Originally Posted by theprestige To me it implies that mainstream journalism is full of whores who print propaganda for money. Ahhh!.... There it is! The koolaid has had its effect. The walking zombies of Trump supporters. Trump says "Fake news" enough times and they're mesmerized. Everyone is lying but Trump. The press, the FBI, the CIA, the State Department.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . Last edited by acbytesla; 2nd December 2019 at 11:09 AM.

2nd December 2019, 08:56 AM	#283
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12,318	Originally Posted by Steve Do you agree with that implication? If a person thinks that is true why imply it? why not just say so? A person who thinks that is true should never link to a news article to support their own position. I'm not one to defend Childlike Empress nor the use of silly terms like "pre$$titute", but I think that's as explicit an implication as one could want. It's not a subtle term with ambiguous meaning. Of course, the articles Childlike Empress links to are by real, dedicated and upright journalists. It is the other journalists who are pre$$titutes.

2nd December 2019, 08:57 AM	#284
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 39,434	Originally Posted by Steve Do you agree with that implication? Why? Do you want to argue with me about it? Let's back up a moment. I'm offering what I think is a better interpretation than Fast Eddie B's. That's all. I'm not even asking you to agree with it. The fact that you're even considering the alternative is enough for me. Quote: If a person thinks that is true why imply it? why not just say so? Don't know, don't care. Quote: A person who thinks that is true should never link to a news article to support their own position. Not my monkey, not my circus.

2nd December 2019, 09:59 AM	#285
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,070	Unsurprisingly, the Impeachment Debate is easily summarized:

2nd December 2019, 11:09 AM	#289
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 86,779	Originally Posted by acbytesla Ahhh!.... There it is! The koolaid has had its effect. The walking zombies of Trump supporters. Trump says "Fake news" enough times and they're mesmerized. Everyone is lying but Trump. The press, the FBI, the CIA, the State Department. Theprestige is, however, describing CE's point, not necessarily his own.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

2nd December 2019, 11:45 AM	#291
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 12,871	Originally Posted by acbytesla Ahhh!.... There it is! The koolaid has had its effect. The walking zombies of Trump supporters. Trump says "Fake news" enough times and they're mesmerized. Everyone is lying but Trump. The press, the FBI, the CIA, the State Department. ...the NSA, all of the Five Eyes partners, the Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee, all of the twelve Foreign Service officials who testified at the hearings... all lied. Only Der Trumpenführer is telling the truth - and even if he isn't well there is noting wrong with that because he is the Trump Zombies' "Dear Leader", above both reproach and The Law.
	__________________ "You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

2nd December 2019, 11:54 AM	#292
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 22,753	Trump Tweets “The American people are going to see this for what it is. It is a political effort by the Democrats, and the President certainly doesn’t have to aid in the Impeachment effort.” Robert Ray @MariaBartiromo Democrats are getting “killed” in their home districts. 2020! Breaking News: The President of Ukraine has just again announced that President Trump has done nothing wrong with respect to Ukraine and our interactions or calls. If the Radical Left Democrats were sane, which they are not, it would be case over! “When the law enforcers turn out to be the law breakers, then we have totally upended the rule of law. Nobody is safe and everybody is in trouble. Our system of government is under attack.” @GovMikeHuckabee The Do Nothing Democrats get 3 Constitutional lawyers for their Impeachment hoax (they will need them!), the Republicans get one. Oh, that sounds fair! Thank you to Congressman Ben @Cline4Virginia for the Great remarks this morning on the illegitimate Impeachment Hoax. He understands the Do Nothing Democrats very well. Also, and as usual, @RepAndyBiggsAZ was fantastic! The Republican Party has NEVER been so united! This Impeachment Scam is just a continuation of the 3 year Witch Hunt, but it is only bringing us even closer together! Great job by @RepDougCollins of Georgia over the weekend in representing the Republican Party, and myself, against the Impeachment Hoax!

2nd December 2019, 11:55 AM	#293
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 39,434	Originally Posted by acbytesla Everyone is lying but Trump. Everyone is lying including Trump. But I was just describing what I understand to be CE's position. You need to stop thinking of it as my position.

2nd December 2019, 12:13 PM	#294
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 12,871	Half of America wants Trump removed from office. The press keep shrugging that off. "The most important impeachment story that most of the press continues to look away from is the fact that one of our two major political parties in this country no longer deals in facts and reality, and instead has willingly burrowed itself into a world of lies and fantasy, specifically when it comes to the issues surrounding impeachment. In fact, some Republican officials are now actively working alongside a Kremlin disinformation campaign regarding Ukraine's role in American elections. If more journalists openly acknowledged this crucial development regarding the GOP, the fact that Republicans aren't willing to support impeachment would no longer be treated as "news," and the press wouldn't portray Democrats as failing with their impeachment messaging. What's also completely lacking is any kind of historical context regarding how awful those impeachment poll numbers are for Trump. When Republicans in the House spent 1998 impeaching Bill Clinton, Americans across the board rejected the inquiry. At no point during the partisan process did more than 30% of Americans support impeachment, and most of the time that number hovered around 25%. Republicans categorically failed to change the nation's mind about Clinton, who famously weathered the political storm with historically high approval ratings, logging a staggering 71% approval rating in a Pew Research poll. Today, more than twice as many Americans support the impeachment of a Republican president than supported the impeachment of a Democratic president two decades ago. Yet the press portrays the Trump impeachment as a political and public relations failure for Democrats. How does that work exactly? Note that it wasn't until July 1974, one month before President Richard Nixon resigned, that a plurality of Americans finally agreed that he should be forced from office. Today, a plurality already feels that way about Trump, yet the press shrugs." You can read the whole article here https://www.dailykos.com/stories/201...paign=trending
	__________________ "You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

2nd December 2019, 12:18 PM	#295
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 76,899	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Trump will not participate in impeachment hearing, White House says https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50625550 So predictable Waah! the Democrats are holding hearings in secret. Waah! the Democrats are holding hearings in public. Waah! the Democrats won't let Trump testify, call witnesses, or have his lawyers there. Waah! the Democrats are holding a sham hearing, I won't participate.
	__________________ That new avatar is cuteness overload. Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

2nd December 2019, 12:23 PM	#296
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 76,899	Originally Posted by phiwum This has nothing to do with his attendance. The lawyers said they won't bother with a hearing on the history and legal issues of impeachment. They have not said whether they will attend later hearings. Even if they do, there's no reason to think that Trump will be there. Honestly, not attending Wednesday's session is reasonable. If the attorneys think the case against impeachment and/or removal won't be based on legal considerations of what constitutes an impeachable offense, then they have little reason to attend. Not sure how they intend to make their case, really. Probably leave it to the GOP Senators to come up with some reason for the nigh inevitable acquittal. Are you seriously defending Trump's BS dodges?
	__________________ That new avatar is cuteness overload. Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

2nd December 2019, 12:27 PM	#297
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 10,104	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Easy. There's nothing in it for Trump. Except it would signal his minions that it's OK to commit federal crimes undertaken to protect Trump, and that stonewalling will be rewarded. But that's only good as long as Trump remains in office, and quite a few must not think that's a slam-dunk. It's the other side of witness intimidation. Meanwhile, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Mike Pence has signed a legal document promising to pardon Trump for any federal offenses Trump may find himself charged with.

2nd December 2019, 12:42 PM	#298
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 23,178	Originally Posted by theprestige Everyone is lying including Trump. But I was just describing what I understand to be CE's position. You need to stop thinking of it as my position. Sorry. But one doesn't make the other true. I don't buy that all these other institutions are lying. That false equivalence is a pile of fecal matter. I don't buy that Russia expert for the National Security Council Fiona Hill Ambassador Yovanovitch Special Envoy to the Ukraine Kurt Volker Intelligence community inspector general Michael Atkinson Deputy Assistant Secretary George Kent Senior adviser to Secretary of State Michael McKinley Ambassador Bill Taylor Deputy assistant secretary of defense Laura Cooper Acting assistant secretary of European and Eurasian affairs Philip Reeker Army Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman Special adviser to Kurt Volker Christopher Anderson National Security Council senior director for Europe and Russia Tim Morrison Special adviser to Vice President Mike Pence for Europe Russia Jennifer Williams Political counselor at U.S. embassy in Ukraine David Holmes are all lying. Although it appears that Ambassador Sondland perjured himself again when he testified about a phone call where Trump said he wanted nothing from Ukraine. There are absolutely NO records of that call. None. This game where Trump supporters ignore reality or try and say "everyone does it" is sad and it's dangerous.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . Last edited by acbytesla; 2nd December 2019 at 12:43 PM.

2nd December 2019, 12:55 PM	#299
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 76,899	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger Unsurprisingly, the Impeachment Debate is easily summarized:
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2nd December 2019, 12:56 PM	#300
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 86,779	Originally Posted by theprestige Everyone is lying including Trump. Pointless equivocation. One person tells his wife he loves her chocolate pudding, another lies about giving nuclear codes to terrorists. But everybody lies, right?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

2nd December 2019, 01:03 PM	#301
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 76,899	Originally Posted by Minoosh Except it would signal his minions that it's OK to commit federal crimes undertaken to protect Trump, and that stonewalling will be rewarded. But that's only good as long as Trump remains in office, and quite a few must not think that's a slam-dunk. It's the other side of witness intimidation. Meanwhile, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Mike Pence has signed a legal document promising to pardon Trump for any federal offenses Trump may find himself charged with. I don't think there's a direct route in rewards for Trump in the highlighted ^.
	__________________ That new avatar is cuteness overload. Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

2nd December 2019, 01:08 PM	#302
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 39,434	Originally Posted by smartcooky "The most important impeachment story that most of the press continues to look away from is the fact that one of our two major political parties in this country no longer deals in facts and reality, and instead has willingly burrowed itself into a world of lies and fantasy, specifically when it comes to the issues surrounding impeachment. In fact, some Republican officials are now actively working alongside a Kremlin disinformation campaign regarding Ukraine's role in American elections. If more journalists openly acknowledged this crucial development regarding the GOP, the fact that Republicans aren't willing to support impeachment would no longer be treated as "news," and the press wouldn't portray Democrats as failing with their impeachment messaging. What's also completely lacking is any kind of historical context regarding how awful those impeachment poll numbers are for Trump. Interesting analysis! Especially in the context of our discussion about the press. Do you think Kos is right, and the press really is looking away from the most important story? Why would they do that? Corruption? Incompetence?

2nd December 2019, 01:11 PM	#303
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 86,779	Originally Posted by theprestige Interesting analysis! Especially in the context of our discussion about the press. Do you think Kos is right, and the press really is looking away from the most important story? Why would they do that? Corruption? Incompetence? A desperate desire to appear neutral, perhaps?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

2nd December 2019, 01:25 PM	#304
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 39,434	Originally Posted by Belz... A desperate desire to appear neutral, perhaps? Perhaps. But why would the press be desperate? And since when is neutrality incompatible with reporting the most important stories?

2nd December 2019, 01:58 PM	#305
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 19,030	Originally Posted by theprestige Interesting analysis! Especially in the context of our discussion about the press. Do you think Kos is right, and the press really is looking away from the most important story? Why would they do that? Corruption? Incompetence? Media today has had it drilled into them that they have to be "fair" and have taken that to mean that they have to treat each side as if they are as equal in validity. It's not just politics either. See how the media treats the stupidity of things like Flat Earth. It means that regardless of how much evidence there is for one side, and how crazy the other is, the Media have to treat them as equivalent or else they are accused of being biased and unfair.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

2nd December 2019, 02:25 PM	#306
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 10,104	Originally Posted by theprestige Interesting analysis! Especially in the context of our discussion about the press. Do you think Kos is right, and the press really is looking away from the most important story? Why would they do that? Corruption? Incompetence? Extreme partisanship is incompatible with the appearance of neutrality. Therefore it's problematic to present an article developing the idea that the biggest story is that Republicans are a bunch of whores getting paid to spread propaganda for money. You absolutely don't have to believe this, but my experience is that many reporters are committed to being as fair as possible. They also want to get the facts right. And if they fail, they write corrections. Do you think politicians come anywhere close to this standard? Reporters get paid because it's their job. If they work for an openly partisan media outlet, they will write articles with a partisan slant. But if they're a ~~major~~ middle-of-the-road daily, network or cable news outlet, they will take pains to present "both sides." They can find people who will say that the problem is that Republicans have become irredeemable scum-suckers, but then they feel duty-bound to find someone to present the " other side." And they will find people who say that's all wrong, it's the Democrats who are irredeemable scrum-sucking whores. So you end up with a "he said, she said" story, which doesn't illuminate anything. And that's unsatisfying for both the writer and the reader. Kos is just venting. They know very well why major news outlets are ignoring the so-called story. I haven't actually read the piece, though. Just going by excerpts. A critic is entitled to believe that the mainstream news media is biased, but I hope they check their own preferred outlets for signs of bias as well. I'm not naive enough to say that everyone in the MSM wants to be fair, but a lot do. It's part of their own deep idealism. The real bias IMO is not conservative vs. liberal. It's more that the media is biased toward sensationalism, conflict and drama. They want ears, eyeballs and clicks. Like most businesses, they want metrics to assess if they are executing their business plan. I grew disenchanted with CNN's wall-to-wall Trump coverage a long time ago, but when it comes to direct quotes or excerpts from documents, it's usually OK. There's no easy fix for that potential problem except to practice a certain amount of skepticism. Check what other outlets are saying. Get a less-filtered view from C-SPAN. Seek out sources that aren't so U.S.-centric. Try the PBS News Hour for a more in-depth treatment. Etc. A lot of people aren't going to bother, but some will.
	Last edited by Minoosh; 2nd December 2019 at 02:43 PM.

2nd December 2019, 03:03 PM	#307
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 12,871	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Media today has had it drilled into them that they have to be "fair" and have taken that to mean that they have to treat each side as if they are as equal in validity. It's not just politics either. See how the media treats the stupidity of things like Flat Earth. It means that regardless of how much evidence there is for one side, and how crazy the other is, the Media have to treat them as equivalent or else they are accused of being biased and unfair. This is exactly why they are ignoring the really big story Once, the Republicans were the party of defending America against the Red Threat - the defenders of Democracy and Capitalism and Human Rights, the party that carried out espionage against the old adversary, Russia (in the guise of the Soviet Union), the party that fought the Cold War in order to prevent Nuclear War. Now they are the party of collusion. It wasn't just the Trump campaign that conspired with the Russians, the whole damn party is in cahoots with those very same Russians; parroting Putin's talking points and and helping to spread his conspiracy theories. As a side note; they are also the party of cruelty, inspired by Stephen "Heinrich" Miller whose white supremacist stance drives the abject cruelty we are seeing at the southern border. I never thought that, in my lifetime, an American government would separate thousands of children from their families, and then imprison them in cages. Its a disgrace
	__________________ "You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

2nd December 2019, 03:37 PM	#308
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 22,753	Trump Tweets Just landed in the United Kingdom, heading to London for NATO meetings tomorrow. Prior to landing I read the Republicans Report on the Impeachment Hoax. Great job! Radical Left has NO CASE. Read the Transcripts. Shouldn’t even be allowed. Can we go to Supreme Court to stop?

2nd December 2019, 03:53 PM	#309
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 5,883	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Can we go to Supreme Court to stop? Ummmm....no.
	__________________ “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that...I will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” - President Donald J. Trump, January 20, 2017. "And it's, frankly, disgusting the way the press is able to write whatever they want to write. And people should look into it." - President Donald J. Trump, October 11, 2017.

2nd December 2019, 03:55 PM	#310
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 10,104	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Trump Tweets Just landed in the United Kingdom, heading to London for NATO meetings tomorrow. Prior to landing I read the Republicans Report on the Impeachment Hoax. Great job! Radical Left has NO CASE. Read the Transcripts. Shouldn’t even be allowed. Can we go to Supreme Court to stop? If he's floating this as a trial balloon, I'm hoping his lawyers will pounce.

2nd December 2019, 04:02 PM	#311
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12,318	Originally Posted by acbytesla Ahhh!.... There it is! The koolaid has had its effect. The walking zombies of Trump supporters. Trump says "Fake news" enough times and they're mesmerized. Everyone is lying but Trump. The press, the FBI, the CIA, the State Department. theprestige was just saying what CE meant. He didn't say whether he agrees or not.

2nd December 2019, 04:10 PM	#312
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 17,672	Originally Posted by phiwum theprestige was just saying what CE meant. He didn't say whether he agrees or not. And he was close to it but as always it is more complicated. I wasn't sharing an article like you said, though, I was drawing attention to the FOIA releases about Giuliani's activities and subsequently narrowed the realm of interesting information. Going further on that road, we learn what the two prosecutor generals, Shokin, the one who was fired due to quid pro quo pressure by creepy Uncle Joe (the talking points why that happened are just too dumb to repeat), and his predecessor Lutsenko, who stopped the investigations into Burisma, said about the events taking place - explicitly agreeing with each other. Followed by an interesting timeline apparently compiled by Rudy himself. So this is not information received through any "journalist" or "pre$$titute" filter, but things you can learn about by yourselves more easily thanks to me.
	__________________ Audiatur et altera pars Last edited by Childlike Empress; 2nd December 2019 at 04:12 PM.

2nd December 2019, 04:51 PM	#313
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Montani Semper Liberi Posts: 3,254	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B Ummmm....no. The sad thing is that it would probably be 5-4. People keep underestimating the depth of conservative nihilism.

2nd December 2019, 05:03 PM	#314
slyjoe Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins Posts: 1,737	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Trump Tweets Just landed in the United Kingdom, heading to London for NATO meetings tomorrow. Prior to landing I read the Republicans Report on the Impeachment Hoax. Great job! Radical Left has NO CASE. Read the Transcripts. Shouldn’t even be allowed. Can we go to Supreme Court to stop? Obvious lie.
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

2nd December 2019, 05:13 PM	#315
Stacyhs Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 9,750	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Trump Tweets Just landed in the United Kingdom, heading to London for NATO meetings tomorrow. Prior to landing I read the Republicans Report on the Impeachment Hoax. Great job! Radical Left has NO CASE. Read the Transcripts. Shouldn’t even be allowed. Can we go to Supreme Court to stop? LOL! Like Trump would have read the 123 page report! He had his lickspittles tell him what was in in it.
Stacyhs Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 9,750

2nd December 2019, 05:46 PM	#316
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12,318	Originally Posted by theprestige Perhaps. But why would the press be desperate? And since when is neutrality incompatible with reporting the most important stories? The desire to appear neutral can be incompatible with any story where the facts really are on one side. The obvious way to convey neutrality is giving air time to "both sides", but in some issues, one side really is on the side of the facts. An example is climate change. There are no legitimate arguments that climate change isn't happening and there is ample evidence that it is caused by man's alteration of the environment. A journalist committed to appearing neutral may be tempted to give air time to poor arguments contrary to the evidence, while the audience may not be well-informed or competent enough to recognize the weakness of such arguments. The result is the appearance of controversy where there is none. Now, whether that applies to press coverage of impeachment is a matter of perspective. I watched MTP Daily today and, while it's not strictly speaking a news program, I thought the host (Tur) could have toned down her opinions a bit for a better presentation. My point here is not about impeachment coverage but a simple observation that the desire to appear neutral can lead to misleading reporting in some instances.