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Tags gun control issues , gun control laws , Ralph Northam , Virginia politics

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Old 4th June 2019, 04:55 PM   #1
Ranb
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Virginia governor demands action on guns

https://www.apnews.com/6168796d8f1140a7bb3c3a88c990253c
Quote:
Northam, a Democrat faced with a gun-friendly, Republican-controlled General Assembly in the middle of a legislative election year, also said he wants every lawmaker to go on record for or against his proposals during the special session, rather than avoid tough votes by quietly killing the bills in subcommittee.
I like this part. What happens in closed door committee meetings is much different than the dog and pony shows that take place in public hearings.

Quote:
Northamís bills include a ban on silencers and high-capacity magazines,
This will do nothing to prevent crime or save lives. Or perhaps hi-cap mags in VA will be defined as anything more than one round?

Quote:
as well as a broadening of the ability of local governments to prohibit guns in city buildings.
Not going to work either, unless the perp had a habit of bringing his gun to work prior to quitting. Might as well make murder somehow more illegal.

Quote:
The governor said he also wants mandatory, universal background checks before gun purchases; a limit of one handgun purchase per month; and a ďred flagĒ law that would allow authorities to seize weapons from people deemed a threat to themselves or others.
This is the only part of the new bill (if it exists) that isn't stupid.

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Old 5th June 2019, 06:23 PM   #2
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The main enemy here is down. Th NRA is a wounded animal. Now is the time to exploit their weakness. A rush of laws from lots of states will overwhelm their ability to mobilize members and respond. When the enemy is down is a great time to kick them.
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:14 PM   #3
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
This will do nothing to prevent crime or save lives. Or perhaps hi-cap mags in VA will be defined as anything more than one round?
Good idea!

On silencers,

Virginia Beach shooter killed 12 using silencer and high-capacity magazine.
Quote:
Silencers, or suppressors, limit the sound, muzzle flash and kickback of a gunshot when they are attached to the barrel of a handgun or rifle.

But they are not soundless, as they are often depicted in the movies.

"Thereís still noise there. That can still impact law enforcement officers when thereís a shooting because itís harder to track down the shooter. It can delay civilians from responding, but itís not as if itís completely silent," Blair said, noting that law enforcement often uses them to protect their hearing...

ďThese devices are meant to suppress the sound of gunfire, to hide muzzle flashes, to confuse the location of an actual gunshot,Ē Ambler said. ďThatís why theyíre so difficult for law enforcement when they encounter them in these situations. It makes it more difficult for them to engage an assailant and increases casualties at shootings like this.Ē
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Old 6th June 2019, 07:16 AM   #4
Ranb
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
On silencers,
You oppose silencers based on a single unproven anecdote?
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Old 6th June 2019, 08:22 AM   #5
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I lived in Virginia for twenty years. It's the state that for a while had a single holiday to honor Martin Luther King, Robert E. Lee, and Stonewall Jackson together because that was a compromise "to make everyone happy". I am willing to bet a fortune in Virginia-printed Confederate money that Virginia is not going to do anything thoughtful.
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Old 6th June 2019, 08:55 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Good idea!

"Thereís still noise there. That can still impact law enforcement officers when thereís a shooting because itís harder to track down the shooter. It can delay civilians from responding, but itís not as if itís completely silent," Blair said, noting that law enforcement often uses them to protect their hearing.
Ear-witnesses don't need any help in being confused wrt the sounds of gunfire.

How many times has the report been "it sounded like firecrackers?"
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Old 6th June 2019, 05:48 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
You oppose silencers based on a single unproven anecdote?
Do you have an evidence-supported argument for silencers?
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Old 6th June 2019, 06:22 PM   #8
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There is evidence that they reduce gun noise. They were made and marketed to civilians over 100 years ago for recreational purposes. I've shown various links in the past related to their limitations and effectiveness and invited people to hear them first hand. There is very little violent crime associated with them as far as I (or anyone else) can tell.

I have no reason to believe that this guy felt driven to commit his crime because he owned a silencer for his handgun.

Is this what you're looking for or is it something else?
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Old 6th June 2019, 06:33 PM   #9
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Recreational purposes?
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Old 6th June 2019, 07:21 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
There is evidence that they reduce gun noise. They were made and marketed to civilians over 100 years ago for recreational purposes. I've shown various links in the past related to their limitations and effectiveness and invited people to hear them first hand. There is very little violent crime associated with them as far as I (or anyone else) can tell.

I have no reason to believe that this guy felt driven to commit his crime because he owned a silencer for his handgun.

Is this what you're looking for or is it something else?
You can count on one hand the number of crimes that have been committed with registered N.F.A. weapons and/or devices, from 1934 to the present. There have been exactly two:

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/case...2.93-4013.html

"When Waller and Michael began their investigation, Waller was not on duty, and the police department did not authorize or know about the investigation. Waller was not wearing his uniform, but he was carrying his badge and identification in his pocket and his service 9 mm pistol and radio in his belt. Waller was also carrying a Mac-11 machine gun under his jacket in a shoulder holster. Michael, who was not a police officer, was carrying a shotgun. The Dayton Police Department's firearms policy allowed, but did not require, police officers to carry their 9 mm pistols while off duty. However, the firearms policy prohibited off-duty officers from carrying any other firearms."


"In 1985, Officer Waller obtained the Mac-11 machine gun used to kill Hileman, and was told by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms that his application to possess that weapon must be submitted to the local chief of police for signature. The former chief of police for the City of Dayton refused to sign the application unless Waller rendered the machine gun nonfireable and only used it for display. However, when James E. Newby became chief of police for the City of Dayton, Waller presented the application to Newby, and he signed it."

And more recently:

https://www.ocregister.com/2013/02/2...l-for-rampage/

Before his rampage against law enforcement, Christopher Dorner acquired a cache of weapons with a level of ease that surprised even him...

In his manifesto, Dorner panned Lock N Load for selling him a suppressor even though he was not a Nevada resident. Suppressors are illegal in California, and Dorner wrote that he easily bypassed a background check by setting up a notarized trust and using his military ID.

From his writing, Dorner showed himself to be a contradiction. He voiced support for politicians on both sides of the aisle, including presidents George H.W. Bush and Barack Obama. Even as he threatened gun violence, he called for stronger gun control laws to prevent mass shootings.

High-capacity magazines, suppressors and rifles like the AR-15 are not necessary for sportsmen, he said.

“Who in their right mind needs a f—— silencer,” he wrote after describing how he had purchased several.

He compared semiautomatic rifles like the AR-15 to military weapons designed with only killing in mind. Naming the shootings at Virginia Tech, Columbine High School, the movie theater in Aurora, Colo., and Newtown, Conn., he said gunmakers should be held responsible and loopholes in laws should be closed.

In a threat to police, he claimed to own a .50-caliber Barrett rifle. Since 2005, the sale of .50-caliber rifles has been prohibited in California, and existing rifles must be registered with the state. San Bernardino County deputies said no .50-caliber rifle had been recovered from the cabin where Dorner hid after a final shootout with police. Dorner also said he owned Bushmaster firearms, Remington precision rifles, suppressors and a short-barreled rifle.

“In the end,” Dorner wrote, “I hope that you will realize that the small arms I utilize should not be accessed with the ease that I obtained them.


One serving LEO and a rookie year washout.

There are also two incidents on the books where a civilian with a registered N.F.A. weapon used it in lawful self defense:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.e9fc259ee368

By Priscilla Painton September 18, 1984

A gun salesman who pleaded self-defense in the death of a man he shot with a machine gun following a traffic dispute and a lengthy highway chase was acquitted of second-degree murder and a gun charge yesterday by a Fairfax County jury.

The Circuit Court jury deliberated almost four hours before finding Gary S. Fadden, 26, not guilty in the death of William H. Hamilton, 35, of Front Royal, Va., last Feb. 26.


Hamilton was shot six times in the parking lot of the Chantilly-area office of Heckler und Koch, the gun manufacturing firm that employs Fadden. According to testimony at the trial, Fadden had attempted to take refuge there following a 17-mile chase that began on Route 50 near Middleburg in Loudoun County.

The weapon from which the fatal shots were fired was a Ruger Mini-14 semiautomatic rifle modified for fully automatic machine gun use, according to testimony at the trial. Such weapons are usually owned legally only by the military and law enforcement agencies, but Fadden, as a weapons salesman, was licensed to carry one. The weapons charge of which Fadden was acquitted was using a firearm in commission of a felony.


And in 1990, Harry Beckwith:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/...out/5-1637989/


"I like to tell folks that I put that one there intentionally," says Harry with a puckish grin. At 68, Harry admits that his recollection is a bit cloudy, but he figures that in his 35 years in the retail gun business he has experienced right at 35 robberies and burglaries. He proudly notes that in all those rip-offs and heist attempts, only two firearms were not recovered.

In the second shootout, the gun dealer interrupted a felon about to drive off with guns he'd heisted from the store. Though not a Class III weapons dealer, Beckwith was federally licensed to possess such arms for his own use. When the thug raised a .45 auto pistol at Harry, Beckwith trumped his ace with a burst of full automatic fire from a Smith & Wesson Model 76 9mm submachine gun. Struck in the forehead, the gunman dropped his pistol and screamed, "I'm hit!"

"Get out of the car," Beckwith roared back. The man did, and realizing he was still alive despite a gunshot wound in the forehead, he ran. Once more, Beckwith held fire.

The man was captured later and treated for an ugly but minor head injury from a flattened- out 9mm hollowpoint round that had lost most of it's energy piercing the safety glass of the windshield.

That incident took place in 1976, the Bicentennial of our nation's independence. A Class III weapons owner had delivered a splendidly appropriate demonstration of the independence our nation was celebrating. In the "the spirit of "76," he stopped a violent criminal with a Model 76.


Beckwith's 7 on 1 (him) gun fight:

Harry Beckwith was at home with his wife in their beautiful hacienda, separated from the business structures by about 100 yards of beach sand and trees. A picturesque setting that would make the quintessential Florida postcard.

Harry was relaxed and watching TV. It was 9:50 p.m. Suddenly, two discordant sounds pierced the night. One was the distinctive crash of a heavy vehicle being driven through the steel-reinforced glass door in the concrete entryway of the gunshop. The other was the yelping of the burglar alarm.


He reached for the weapons he had laid out for just such a contingency.

First was a Charter Arms Bulldog revolver in an old Bucheimer crossdraw paddle holster. It slipped easily into place in front of his left hip. It was loaded with five rounds of his favorite .44 Special ammunition, Winchester Silvertip hollowpoint.

Next came the Model 76 submachine gun. One magazine was in place, the bolt properly closed, "condition three." More magazines were rubber-banded to the extended stock. Beckwith had found this to be a faster way to access them than to attach a pouch in the same place. He slung the licensed submachine gun over his right shoulder.

He picked up an AR-15, a gun he has always described as a "Colt Sporting Rifle." It contained one magazine downloaded to only 15 rounds. Another such magazine was banded to its plastic stock as well.

With the other hand, he scooped up a Remington Model 1100 12 gauge semiautomatic shotgun, already fully loaded.


The first police car pulled into the scene approximately one minute later. To Beckwith, it seemed as if he waited an hour.

However, reconstruction of the incident would show that it had been only three minutes from when the alarm sounded to when the first responding Alachua County deputy made it into the gunshop. The incident itself had lasted less than two minutes.

During that time, Harry Beckwith had fired 105 shots.

By 2 a.m. all surviving perpetrators had been arrested and were in custody. Six were at the jail and one at morgue. Roger Patterson, age 18, was found dead in the wreck of the shot up Oldsmobile. He'd gotten across the line into Marion County with one tire shot away, driving 13 miles before he lost control and crashed. Cause of death was a .223 rifle wound through the chest.

The second man in the blue car was captured near the scene.

Both cars had been hot-wired and stolen. Some 20 stolen firearms were found in each car. The white Olds had been so badly shot up it had to be towed from the scene.

Patterson was the only one hit. This was because he was the only one Beckwith fired at. Most of his shots had been directed at keeping the other men's heads down and dissuading them, and at disabling their second vehicle, goals he achieved with spectacular success.

Beckwith told me later, "I could have killed all five of them, at the end, when they were running away and exposed to me. But I was no longer in danger from them, so chose not to shoot them."
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Old 6th June 2019, 08:39 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Recreational purposes?
Target shooting and hunting. Guns can benefit from a silencer like any other loud machine can use a muffler.

As far as I know the military did not see any use for them until WWII. The only market that really existed was for civilians until 1934 when the NFA introduced the $200 tax; then the civilian market dried up
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Old 6th June 2019, 08:43 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Do you have an evidence-supported argument for silencers?
Why does it need an argument for it?
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:36 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
https://www.apnews.com/6168796d8f1140a7bb3c3a88c990253c

.... Might as well make murder somehow more illegal.
Wow. Have you ever considered becoming a Republican Party political adviser?

Speaker of the Virginia House of Delegates Kirk Cox, a Republican, said that at the special session, Republican lawmakers would address gun violence “by holding criminals accountable with tougher sentences — including mandatory minimums,” rather than “infringing on the constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens.”

........
I have no idea what is the best way to reduce this kind violence, but I am very confident that tougher sentences for mass shooters is one of the stupidest plans I have ever heard.
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Old 7th June 2019, 04:10 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Wow. Have you ever considered becoming a Republican Party political adviser?

Speaker of the Virginia House of Delegates Kirk Cox, a Republican, said that at the special session, Republican lawmakers would address gun violence ďby holding criminals accountable with tougher sentences ó including mandatory minimums,Ē rather than ďinfringing on the constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens.Ē

........
I have no idea what is the best way to reduce this kind violence, but I am very confident that tougher sentences for mass shooters is one of the stupidest plans I have ever heard.
That's being reactive, not proactive. In other words, failing to lead.
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Old 7th June 2019, 04:40 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Target shooting and hunting. Guns can benefit from a silencer like any other loud machine can use a muffler.
I grew up in rural Missouri where target shooting and hunting was everywhere. We had annual hunter safety courses in PE starting in middle school, if not grade school. Iíve never seen a silencer used for those purposes. Ear protection, yes. Eye protection, yes. Silencers, never.

Iím guessing itís because attaching a chunk of metal to the end of any barrel is going to throw off the balance and aim. Who does that for target shooting and hunting?
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:19 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Iím guessing itís because attaching a chunk of metal to the end of any barrel is going to throw off the balance and aim. Who does that for target shooting and hunting?
I've never seen a silencer on any weapon, but no doubt all the gun nuts will now be putting them on their AR-15s just to prove that people use them for hunting. I may ask my brother about it since he is a very experienced hunter - but I think I know what the answer will be...
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:27 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I have no idea what is the best way to reduce this kind violence, but I am very confident that tougher sentences for mass shooters is one of the stupidest plans I have ever heard.
I think it's a wonderful idea! All those would-be mass shooters will now think twice about murdering dozens of people, knowing that there's a mandatory minimum sentence.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:29 AM   #18
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There has been, in recent years, a move to de-regulate suppressors. This primarily due to noise reduction. Yes, we know that folks living in rural areas can indulge in plinking or target practice without annoying others, but folks shooting at ranges in more built-up areas often get complaints about the noise.
It’s a choice between wearing bulky noise-suppressing devices, or putting the suppressor on the firearm....
Also, and a prime item in the reasoning on this, is that there is almost no incidence of these devices in crime... Until this current incident.
Decent suppressors are expensive, and the firearm usually has to be modified to accept one.
With a handgun, normally this involves purchasing an aftermarket barrel with an extended and threaded end to accept the supressor.
It’s unusual for criminals to go to such lengths, or to spend a lot of money on a firearm they intend to use for a drive-by and then toss into a river.

I’m not familiar with ANY use of a suppressor in a criminal incident prior to this one.... There certainly can’t have been many.
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Old 7th June 2019, 06:24 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I grew up in rural Missouri where target shooting and hunting was everywhere. We had annual hunter safety courses in PE starting in middle school, if not grade school. Iíve never seen a silencer used for those purposes. Ear protection, yes. Eye protection, yes. Silencers, never.

Iím guessing itís because attaching a chunk of metal to the end of any barrel is going to throw off the balance and aim. Who does that for target shooting and hunting?
Olympic Match shooters attach a chunk of metal to the front of the pistol to make it more accurate and stable for rapid fire events. This is a Hammerli-Walther Olympia with weights added under the frame and barrel.
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Old 7th June 2019, 06:28 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I grew up in rural Missouri where target shooting and hunting was everywhere. We had annual hunter safety courses in PE starting in middle school, if not grade school. Iíve never seen a silencer used for those purposes. Ear protection, yes. Eye protection, yes. Silencers, never.

Iím guessing itís because attaching a chunk of metal to the end of any barrel is going to throw off the balance and aim. Who does that for target shooting and hunting?
Slang term for suppressors in a certain demographic - "Accuracy Tuners."

A suppressor as a device will lessen recoil and allow the shooter to maintain their sight picture during the recoil moment. The additional weight at the muzzle end can be "tuned" via indexing to the bore to dampen barrel harmonics - read as: vibration - increasing the stability of the projectile in flight.

Additional weights on barrels outside of suppressors have been around for 50 + years that I know of and many folks use them in formal competition in classes that allow them:


https://forum.gon.com/threads/barrel...lancer.441818/

One shooters opinion:

I think that a "tuner" can help you dial in accuracy for a given velocity (rather that a given bullet weight). But even the same bullet weight at different velocity will require adjustment.

After 2 years of testing - I think that a "tuner" will help tremendously on a production rifle.

My method with the tuner for competition was to find a setting that gave good accuracy - then make slight adjustments with the powder charge to fine tune the load through the day.

For a pencil barrel rifle, a tuner could be less weight (probably 1oz) and doesn't need to be beyond the muzzle. several tuners out now are nothing more than two threaded disks near the muzzle.


Outside of dangerous game hunting. most experienced hunters will try to shoot from a stable position - prone being the best bet, second sitting with some type of rest (natural or man made) to balance their rifle and standing braced against some type of structure as a third choice.
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Old 7th June 2019, 06:34 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
I've never seen a silencer on any weapon, but no doubt all the gun nuts will now be putting them on their AR-15s just to prove that people use them for hunting. I may ask my brother about it since he is a very experienced hunter - but I think I know what the answer will be...
From 2013. NSFW feral pig culling in Texas w/ suppressed rifle:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 7th June 2019, 06:51 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
From 2013. NSFW feral pig culling in Texas w/ suppressed rifle:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Feral hog culling is the only type of hunting I'm aware of where suppressors are considered a reasonable option. Your average deer hunter isn't going to be firing enough rounds to justify carrying extra bulk into the bush.

A deer hunter who is going to spend the whole day in a tree stand and will likely fire less than 5 rounds (if he even sees a deer) isn't going to bother with such things. Deer guns often have fairly lightweight barrels too, because there's no need to worry about accuracy problems due to hot barrels.

Hog hunting, whose goal is large bodycount, is unique in many ways compared to other types of common hunting in NA.
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Old 7th June 2019, 08:36 AM   #23
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Here's a nice suppressed Ruger 10/22. The set up is great for poultry farmers who need to deal with varmints (foxes, weasels, mink, stoats, or rats). Fowl panic easily from loud noises. Turkeys in particular can get into mob rushes away from noises, pile up on fences, and die. A reasonably quiet 22 lets the farmer deal with the threat without collateral losses.
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Old 7th June 2019, 09:01 AM   #24
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From my pov, one of the strangest things I ran into otj was a department that requested suppressors for their entry teams and was turned down, but at the same time the municipal animal control department received authorization to purchase two suppressed .22 caliber rifles for the purpose of putting down injured animals...didn't want the citizenry unduly alarmed by the sound of gunfire.
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Old 7th June 2019, 09:11 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Recreational purposes?
I'm not much of a gun guy, but even I know that if you regularly shoot weapons bigger than a 0.22 on a range, you need hearing protection. Using a silencer might eliminate the need for hearing protection, and allow you to hear what people around you are saying.
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Old 7th June 2019, 09:16 AM   #26
BStrong
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I'm not much of a gun guy, but even I know that if you regularly shoot weapons bigger than a 0.22 on a range, you need hearing protection. Using a silencer might eliminate the need for hearing protection, and allow you to hear what people around you are saying.
Another slang term for suppressors - "Gentleman's Accessory" - while shooting with a suppressor you can converse like a gentleman - no need to raise your voice to be heard.
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Old 7th June 2019, 09:18 AM   #27
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demands......lol
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:54 PM   #28
Grizzly Adams
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Quote:
Virginia governor demands action on guns
All guns have some sort of action. Bolt, lever, single, double, pump...
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Old 7th June 2019, 07:26 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Wow.
That's what I get for indulging in irony. I should know better on this forum.
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Old 7th June 2019, 07:29 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Iím guessing itís because attaching a chunk of metal to the end of any barrel is going to throw off the balance and aim.
Not always true. Ever notice how a rifle can be available in different barrel lengths? Does a longer barrel throw off the balance? Does attaching a 3 ounce silencer to a 22lr rifle with a 16 to 20 inch barrel really change things other than the noise?

Quote:
Who does that for target shooting and hunting?
I do as well as some others.
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Old 7th June 2019, 07:33 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I'm not much of a gun guy, but even I know that if you regularly shoot weapons bigger than a 0.22 on a range, you need hearing protection. Using a silencer might eliminate the need for hearing protection, and allow you to hear what people around you are saying.
You should be using hearing protection even with 22lr. 22CB in a rifle is safe without hearing protection though. I tried active hearing protection (ear muffs with microphones that cut out upon firing) in the past. Silencers were much more reliable.
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