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Tags donald trump , impeachment , Michael Cohen , political speculation , Trump controversies

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Old 18th January 2019, 10:07 AM   #1
ChristianProgressive
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"Ladies and Gentlemen, We Got Him!"

Cohen's statement about acting with the knowledge and direction of Despot Donald Trump means far far more than just the things Cohen did. it establishes precedent.

Now go back and re-read the reporting from the early days of the Mueller probe on Manafort's emails saying the campaign needed to send someone "low" to the Russians so as to not "send a signal".

Also Papadopolous' statements that Trump was well aware of and encouraged his conspiring with the Russians.

Donald J Trump is guilty of Treason, conspiracy with a foreign power, and subverting the 2016 election. The "election" is therefore invalid.

Hillary Clinton is our rightful President.
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Old 18th January 2019, 10:21 AM   #2
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You forgot the "Breaking:"
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Old 18th January 2019, 10:46 AM   #3
Armitage72
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Donald J Trump is guilty of Treason, conspiracy with a foreign power, and subverting the 2016 election. The "election" is therefore invalid.

Hillary Clinton is our rightful President.

Some Republicans claiming that President Obama wasn't really a citizen thought that the 2008 election would be reversed and McCain would become President. That's not how it works.
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:16 AM   #4
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Ooh, is this a thread for rank speculation? Here's mine: there's been sufficient evidence to convict Trump since long before the probe began, but there wasn't any point in moving on it because Pence would just pardon him. That would be a travesty of justice by itself, but more importantly it would conceal the extent of the rot. Now with Cohen flipping, there's finally enough evidence to drag Pence down too, and no way in hell is President Pelosi going to help them cover anything up.
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:21 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Ooh, is this a thread for rank speculation? Here's mine: there's been sufficient evidence to convict Trump since long before the probe began, but there wasn't any point in moving on it because Pence would just pardon him. That would be a travesty of justice by itself, but more importantly it would conceal the extent of the rot. Now with Cohen flipping, there's finally enough evidence to drag Pence down too, and no way in hell is President Pelosi going to help them cover anything up.
Is there a way Pelosi could actually become president out of this?

I do recognize that Trump is almost certainly guilty (as sure as you can be), and under normal circumstances would be impeached and removed from office. I also recognize (with almost as much certainty) that Pence is also guilty of various crimes.

But, would the 2 of them be removed simultaneously? Or would Trump get impeached, Pence becomes president, then he appoints his own VP right before he himself gets impeached (and that VP becomes the new president).
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:34 AM   #6
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Is there a way Pelosi could actually become president out of this?

I do recognize that Trump is almost certainly guilty (as sure as you can be), and under normal circumstances would be impeached and removed from office. I also recognize (with almost as much certainty) that Pence is also guilty of various crimes.

But, would the 2 of them be removed simultaneously? Or would Trump get impeached, Pence becomes president, then he appoints his own VP right before he himself gets impeached (and that VP becomes the new president).
Manfort picked Pence, which implicates him in the conspiracy. Trump goes, he goes.
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:35 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Some Republicans claiming that President Obama wasn't really a citizen thought that the 2008 election would be reversed and McCain would become President. That's not how it works.
Problemwith that theory: Obama IS a citizen and proved it. Therefore the election was legitimate.

Trump subverting the election via conspiracy with the Russians makes 2016 invalid on the grounds of fraud.
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:38 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Is there a way Pelosi could actually become president out of this?

I do recognize that Trump is almost certainly guilty (as sure as you can be), and under normal circumstances would be impeached and removed from office. I also recognize (with almost as much certainty) that Pence is also guilty of various crimes.

But, would the 2 of them be removed simultaneously? Or would Trump get impeached, Pence becomes president, then he appoints his own VP right before he himself gets impeached (and that VP becomes the new president).
My own speculation is that if there is irrefutable evidence of Pence's participation in criminal activity, then Pence could be impeached or pushed to resign first. Unlike Trump, Pence may have shame and doesn't have the unthinking support of 1/3 of the country, so that's plausible. Then, Trump would be unable to have a new VP confirmed because it would require I believe a majority of both houses. If Trump is removed following that, Pelosi would step into the role.

Alternatively, If Trump is removed first and Pence attempts to name a new VP, that person also would need to be confirmed, and if evidence of severe wrongdoing by Pence is made clear in advance of confirmation, He may look too guilty to get to appoint the new President.

My own blind speculation is that Pence IS culpable and the reason Mueller is taking so long is that he thinks it would be a miscarriage of justice to allow Pence or someone he appoints to run the country after this, so evidence presented must clearly include Pence and be released in an actionable way.
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:40 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Manfort picked Pence, which implicates him in the conspiracy. Trump goes, he goes.
I think Pence is almost certainly complicit, but being picked by Manafort does not prove it. Not everything Manafort did was necessary directly about empowering Russia. Choosing Pence was likely indirectly following the plan by simply making Trump more electable by including an old school Christian on the ticket.
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:50 AM   #10
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Meh, it all depends on what happened and what was said at those meetings. A presidential candidate would be remiss in their duties if they did not have some contact with important foreign nations prior to the taking office.
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:55 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Donald J Trump is guilty of Treason
Even if what you said was true, none of that qualifies as treason.

Quote:
conspiracy with a foreign power, and subverting the 2016 election.
Wouldn't happen to have the US Code sections that make either of those actions a crime?

Quote:
The "election" is therefore invalid.

Hillary Clinton is our rightful President.
If the election is invalid, it's invalid for her as well.
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Old 18th January 2019, 12:09 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Meh, it all depends on what happened and what was said at those meetings. A presidential candidate would be remiss in their duties if they did not have some contact with important foreign nations prior to the taking office.
I'm not sure if that's necessarily true about a presidential candidate. A president-elect, though, quite rightly starts talking to his foreign counterparts before he takes office. I think you'll find that every modern president-elect, from Obama on back, has met with the Russians before taking office.
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Old 18th January 2019, 12:18 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Quote:
Donald J Trump is guilty of Treason
Even if what you said was true, none of that qualifies as treason.
Yes, by the letter of the law, Trump wouldn't be guilty of "treason", because that charge specifically refers to actions during war time.

I think people are using Treason in a more broad way, to refer to any sort of traitorous acts.

Quote:
Quote:
conspiracy with a foreign power, and subverting the 2016 election.
Wouldn't happen to have the US Code sections that make either of those actions a crime?
Well, off the top of my head, you have the Logan act, which makes it illegal for private citizens to negotiate with foreign countries that the U.S. has a dispute with. (And Trump making a deal with the Russians, like "I'll remove sanctions if I get elected" would qualify.)

Russia's work to get Trump elected would be considered an illegal campaign contribution, and the coordination of Trump's campaign with the Russians would be considered conspiracy.

Hacking into Democratic servers would have been considered computer tresspass under the computer fraud and abuse act. Since the Trump campaign was likely aware of such hacking attempts they would be considered co-conspirators.

And that's not including all of the secondary crimes... such as obstruction of justice and perjury that Trump and his minions have been engaging in to cover up the above crimes.
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Old 18th January 2019, 12:31 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Cohen's statement about acting with the knowledge and direction of Despot Donald Trump means far far more than just the things Cohen did. it establishes precedent.

Now go back and re-read the reporting from the early days of the Mueller probe on Manafort's emails saying the campaign needed to send someone "low" to the Russians so as to not "send a signal".

Also Papadopolous' statements that Trump was well aware of and encouraged his conspiring with the Russians.

Donald J Trump is guilty of Treason, conspiracy with a foreign power, and subverting the 2016 election. The "election" is therefore invalid.

Hillary Clinton is our rightful President.
Sorry, but that is not right ...

If Trump is tossed, then Pence will become the president.

And if Pence is tossed, then Pelosi will become the president.

The order of succession is spelled out in the US Constitution.
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Old 18th January 2019, 12:35 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Sorry, but that is not right ...

If Trump is tossed, then Pence will become the president.

And if Pence is tossed, then Pelosi will become the president.

The order of succession is spelled out in the US Constitution.
Naah!

If it is uncovered that Trump used illegal means to become President, a Time Vortex will open up and transport us all back to November 2016.

Oh, yes, the science totally checks out.
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Old 18th January 2019, 12:36 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Problemwith that theory: Obama IS a citizen and proved it. Therefore the election was legitimate.

Trump subverting the election via conspiracy with the Russians makes 2016 invalid on the grounds of fraud.


My point was that, IF they had been correct about him not being a citizen, it would not have reversed the outcome of the election. As Crossbow said, it would have resulted in President Biden, not President McCain, and the same thing would apply now.
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Old 18th January 2019, 12:39 PM   #17
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"we got him" ?

not

"the truth has been found" ?

This is the cornerstone of the police, courts and lawyers.

Always out to GET something or someone ... no concern about finding the truth

(I done care about the Trump issue itself BTW .. just the subject I mentioned.)

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Old 18th January 2019, 12:45 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Sorry, but that is not right ...

If Trump is tossed, then Pence will become the president.

And if Pence is tossed, then Pelosi will become the president.

The order of succession is spelled out in the US Constitution.
Not if Pence nominates a VP in the interim. Congress would have to approve of his choice with a simple majority though.
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Old 18th January 2019, 12:47 PM   #19
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I'll believe we got him when I hear on the news that he's in custody. Heh.
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Old 18th January 2019, 12:50 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'll believe we got him when I hear on the news that he's in custody. Heh.
I'll believe we got him when a Navy SEAL lies down next to the body to confirm height. That's the traditional milestone for using this phrase, I think.
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Old 18th January 2019, 12:56 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Not if Pence nominates a VP in the interim. Congress would have to approve of his choice with a simple majority though.
That is very true and this detail is spelled out in the Constitution as well.

However, if as was suggested by 'ChristianProgressive' that somehow the 2016 election was fraudulent, then it would be quite unlikely that the Congress would confirm any VP choice that would be made by Pence.
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On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
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Old 18th January 2019, 01:23 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Not if Pence nominates a VP in the interim. Congress would have to approve of his choice with a simple majority though.
And that will probably be the fastest confirmation of anyone ever in the U.S. senate.

McConnell: "What's your name?"

Republican VP Candidate: "I'm the devil!"

Republican party: "Nomination approved!"
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Old 18th January 2019, 01:30 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Sorry, but that is not right ...

If Trump is tossed, then Pence will become the president.

And if Pence is tossed, then Pelosi will become the president.

The order of succession is spelled out in the US Constitution.
Wouldn't it be cool if Pelosi as President abdicates to Hillary Clinton, and she finally takes her rightful place in the Oval Office? I'd feel like we're back in the right universe, not the "Mirror, Mirror" one.

(eta)
Even better, Pelosi picks Hillary as VP, Pelosi resigns, and Hillary takes the throne.
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Old 18th January 2019, 01:31 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Problemwith that theory: Obama IS a citizen and proved it. Therefore the election was legitimate.
Citizenship was never the putative problem. It was about where certain loonies say he was born.
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Old 18th January 2019, 01:32 PM   #25
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
"we got him" ?
not
"the truth has been found" ?

This is the cornerstone of the police, courts and lawyers.

Always out to GET something or someone ... no concern about finding the truth
True, in general we (as a society, and the justice system) should be interested in finding the truth, facts, etc. rather than trying to "get" someone.

However, in this case there is a substantial amount of evidence that Trump is guilty of a whole range of infractions (from things that are legal but are questionable in a moral sense... his racism, revealing state secrets, etc., all the way to things like election violations.) When the preponderance of evidence already points to someone's guilt, its natural for people to instead target an individual person rather than talking about "the truth" in a general way.
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Old 18th January 2019, 01:33 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
However, if as was suggested by 'ChristianProgressive' that somehow the 2016 election was fraudulent, then it would be quite unlikely that the Congress would confirm any VP choice that would be made by Pence.
How cute! You think that the republicans in the senate might actually have some integrity.
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Old 18th January 2019, 01:37 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Cohen's statement about acting with the knowledge and direction of Despot Donald Trump means far far more than just the things Cohen did. it establishes precedent.

Now go back and re-read the reporting from the early days of the Mueller probe on Manafort's emails saying the campaign needed to send someone "low" to the Russians so as to not "send a signal".

Also Papadopolous' statements that Trump was well aware of and encouraged his conspiring with the Russians.

Donald J Trump is guilty of Treason, conspiracy with a foreign power, and subverting the 2016 election. The "election" is therefore invalid.

Hillary Clinton is our rightful President.
While I an relate to your dislike of Trump, I think your interpretation of events is a little naive.

Hans
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Old 18th January 2019, 01:37 PM   #28
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I don't think it can be demonstrated that the election was fraudulent. For one thing, there are 51 different elections, run by different people. For another, the result was well within the statistical probability forecast despite idiotic reports that HRC had a 99 percent chance of winning.

Fraud would be hacking voting machines or stuffing ballot boxes. I don't think it covers idiots believing what bots post on social media.

And, as others have pointed out, the remedy for a fraudulent election is not to install the losing candidate.
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Old 18th January 2019, 01:39 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Wouldn't it be cool if Pelosi as President abdicates to Hillary Clinton, and she finally takes her rightful place in the Oval Office? I'd feel like we're back in the right universe, not the "Mirror, Mirror" one.
Well, before abdicating, Pelosi would have all Republican Senators neutered by Executive Order.
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Old 18th January 2019, 01:42 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
And that will probably be the fastest confirmation of anyone ever in the U.S. senate.

McConnell: "What's your name?"

Republican VP Candidate: "I'm the devil!"

Republican party: "Nomination approved!"
The VP needs to be confirmed by both houses.
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Old 18th January 2019, 01:51 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
And that will probably be the fastest confirmation of anyone ever in the U.S. senate.

McConnell: "What's your name?"

Republican VP Candidate: "I'm the devil!"

Republican party: "Nomination approved!"
For a VP, unlike for executive officers or judges, a majority of both Senate and House of Representatives is required.They won't be able to ram it through like they did with Cavanaugh.
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Old 18th January 2019, 01:51 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
How cute! You think that the republicans in the senate might actually have some integrity.
I don't think the Republicans in Congress have any more integrity than the Democrats. Which is to say, not much at all, often less than is necessary, sometimes more than we like to think, and just as often as not it's the other way around.
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Old 18th January 2019, 01:53 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
For a VP, unlike for executive officers or judges, a majority of both Senate and House of Representatives is required.They won't be able to ram it through like they did with Cavanaugh.
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
The VP needs to be confirmed by both houses.
I stand corrected.
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Old 18th January 2019, 01:55 PM   #34
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Trump is a traitor and deserves the traitor’s fate.
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Old 18th January 2019, 02:22 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Well, before abdicating, Pelosi would have all Republican Senators neutered by Executive Order.
Wouldn't that be redundant?
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Old 18th January 2019, 02:30 PM   #36
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Wouldn't that be redundant?
Some things need to be made official.
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Old 18th January 2019, 02:31 PM   #37
dasmiller
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Some things need to be made official.
Fair point. Carry on.
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Old 18th January 2019, 02:42 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Well, before abdicating, Pelosi would have all Republican Senators neutered by Executive Order.
Literally?
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Old 18th January 2019, 02:43 PM   #39
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So, the house votes to impeach.(Impeach means "to investigate") But doesn't the Senate get in on the Guilty! vote?
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Old 18th January 2019, 02:59 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
So, the house votes to impeach.(Impeach means "to investigate") But doesn't the Senate get in on the Guilty! vote?
Yes.
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