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Tags donald trump , lying charges , Trump controversies

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Old 7th May 2019, 06:18 AM   #1
IsThisTheLife
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Lies, Damned Lies, and Politicians

Can we just clear something up here? Do those that keep repeating that Trump "lies all the time" believe that most other politicians, not least HRC, don't lie? Or that they "don't lie as much"?

Mod InfoThese were split from the Mueller Report thread. They were just off topic enough to be moved out of there to here.
Posted By:kmortis

Last edited by kmortis; 8th May 2019 at 08:06 AM.
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Old 7th May 2019, 06:22 AM   #2
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Can we just clear something up here? Do those that keep repeating that Trump "lies all the time" believe that most other politicians, not least HRC, don't lie? Or that they "don't lie as much"?
Most politicians do not lie to the scale of Trump. over 10,000 in his two years of office is unprecedented!
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Old 7th May 2019, 06:23 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Can we just clear something up here? Do those that keep repeating that Trump "lies all the time" believe that most other politicians, not least HRC, don't lie? Or that they "don't lie as much"?
That you even need to ask this is pretty ridiculous. All humans lie. But there's a difference between people who lie to protect others or their feelings, those who lie in order to gain something, and those who lie reflexively until they can't even tell the difference between reality and their delusions anymore. Trump's in the latter category.

With politicians in general, you can trust them to lie in a predictable way. Not necessarily morally acceptable, but at least par for the course. But if Trump told me that the sky is blue, I'd have to go out and check.
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Old 7th May 2019, 06:24 AM   #4
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Can we just clear something up here? Do those that keep repeating that Trump "lies all the time" believe that most other politicians, not least HRC, don't lie? Or that they "don't lie as much"?
as a rule of thumb, they lie 2 to 4 orders of magnitude less.
I think it is clear that at Trump's level of dishonesty, it is not just a quantitative, but also a qualitative difference.
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Old 7th May 2019, 06:56 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Can we just clear something up here? Do those that keep repeating that Trump "lies all the time" believe that most other politicians, not least HRC, don't lie? Or that they "don't lie as much"?
Every human being lies on occasion. But let's be honest, (sorry, couldn't help myself) Trump lies more than all the other politicians combined. It's non-stop with Trump. I've NEVER EVER seen someone like Trump.

Trump is unique. He doesn't care one bit if what he says his true. If it makes sense to Trump, he will say it. Sometimes he must know what he is saying is false and other times he probably doesn't know one way or another. But the point is it doesn't matter to Trump. He'll accuse others of lying when in fact they're not. They are only contradicting some falsehood that he has spouted.

Trump doesn't like it when its pointed out that he's wrong. But instead of correcting his mistake he'll lie about those trying to set the record straight.

The question for you and the rest of America. Do you want a government that mostly is trying to tell the truth but occasionally doesn't? Or do you want one that is entirely based on disinformation as in George Orwell's doublespeak?

Does truth matter to you?
Do facts count?
Does integrity matter?
Are laws for the other guys?

I've never been more afraid of America's future. We have a President that is actively trying to destroy all the principles this country is based on and 30 percent of the country are waving flags and saying "keep it up Trump". Trump is already hinting about staying in office even if he loses. If he loses, he will not gracefully accept his loss.

There's a bad moon arising I'm afraid.
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Old 7th May 2019, 07:02 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I think it is clear that at Trump's level of dishonesty, it is not just a quantitative, but also a qualitative difference.
Related, but slightly different, is zero consistency in his proclamations.

Saying he was "100%" willing to talk to Mueller - until he wasn't.

Saying he would release his taxes if nominated - until he changed his mind.

Saying he would not object to Mueller testifying - until he objected.

And on and on. Unsettling enough in these matters. I think the situation will become grave in the event of a real crisis where his words and promises have zero weight with anyone.
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Old 7th May 2019, 07:35 AM   #7
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Related, but slightly different, is zero consistency in his proclamations.

Saying he was "100%" willing to talk to Mueller - until he wasn't.

Saying he would release his taxes if nominated - until he changed his mind.

Saying he would not object to Mueller testifying - until he objected.

And on and on. Unsettling enough in these matters. I think the situation will become grave in the event of a real crisis where his words and promises have zero weight with anyone.
It's worse than that.

Trump likes to be on record for every possible answer to any possible question - so that his mouthpieces and fans can use the buffet of statements to shield him from everything.

Trump takes it as a failed opportunity not to lie and exaggerate.
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Old 7th May 2019, 07:55 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
it is not just a quantitative, but also a qualitative difference.


Another part of that is that he lies about things that are just painfully obvious lies. "The biggest inauguration crowd in history", when we can all see the photos right in front of us. "I never said that", when we have him on video saying exactly that. It's literally, "Who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes?"

It's one thing to lie about some obscure aspect of a proposed law or policy that most people don't really understand all that well to begin with, but lying about what's right in front of us is completely different.
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Old 7th May 2019, 08:27 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Every human being lies on occasion. But let's be honest, (sorry, couldn't help myself) Trump lies more than all the other politicians combined. It's non-stop with Trump. I've NEVER EVER seen someone like Trump.
Err... while this is obvious hyperbole, I think it may be worth repeating again that far too many of the GOP's politicians are taking cues from Trump and lying much more and much more brazenly than they used to be.
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:37 AM   #10
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Err... while this is obvious hyperbole, I think it may be worth repeating again that far too many of the GOP's politicians are taking cues from Trump and lying much more and much more brazenly than they used to be.
I'm not sure it is. Trump seems to lie hourly. Whereas most people, even politicians rarely lie. I believe the vast majority use to actually care about integrity and don't tell lies flippantly. But I'm afraid you're right and that Trump has had a terrible effect on what people think is right and wrong.

As a former Christian I remember this verse.

There are six things that the LORD strongly dislikes, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

— Proverbs 6:16–19
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:56 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I've never been more afraid of America's future. We have a President that is actively trying to destroy all the principles this country is based on and 30 percent of the country are waving flags and saying "keep it up Trump". Trump is already hinting about staying in office even if he loses. If he loses, he will not gracefully accept his loss.

There's a bad moon arising I'm afraid.
Same feeling here. I get increasingly concerned about what happens next year (!) if/when he's behind in the polls, and decides to do something desperate. Of course, there's a chance he could be out by then, either by his own decision ("Presidenting is hard!"), medical reasons, or political ousting. I think the last possibility is the least likely, this close to the next election.

I even get uneasy if he hasn't Tweeted anything by his regular time in the morning, like today. Someone must be making him actually work.
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Old 7th May 2019, 01:42 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Can we just clear something up here? Do those that keep repeating that Trump "lies all the time" believe that most other politicians, not least HRC, don't lie? Or that they "don't lie as much"?

George Washington was the President who could not tell a lie.

Richard Nixon was the President who could not tell the truth.

Donald Trump is the President who cannot tell the difference!
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Old 7th May 2019, 01:44 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That you even need to ask this is pretty ridiculous. All humans lie. But there's a difference between people who lie to protect others or their feelings, those who lie in order to gain something, and those who lie reflexively until they can't even tell the difference between reality and their delusions anymore. Trump's in the latter category.

With politicians in general, you can trust them to lie in a predictable way. Not necessarily morally acceptable, but at least par for the course. But if Trump told me that the sky is blue, I'd have to go out and check.
Exactly. Even Goebbels knew what truth was.

I am not sure that Trump does. In fact, given how hurt he seems when people point out verifiable facts, I'd be more surprised if someone told me that Trump was able to separate truth and his lies
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Old 7th May 2019, 03:34 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That you even need to ask this is pretty ridiculous. ...
I know right. I don't quite grasp this kind of false equivalence denial.
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Old 7th May 2019, 04:46 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That you even need to ask this is pretty ridiculous.
I wish a trumpkin would some day give me an honest answer as to why they "debate" this way. It's mind-boggling.
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Old 7th May 2019, 05:22 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
I wish a trumpkin would some day give me an honest answer as to why they "debate" this way. It's mind-boggling.
More mind-numbing, if you ask me.
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Old 7th May 2019, 05:56 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not sure it is. Trump seems to lie hourly. Whereas most people, even politicians rarely lie. I believe the vast majority use to actually care about integrity and don't tell lies flippantly. But I'm afraid you're right and that Trump has had a terrible effect on what people think is right and wrong.

As a former Christian I remember this verse.

There are six things that the LORD strongly dislikes, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

— Proverbs 6:16–19
you a Muslim now? or Hindu?
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Old 7th May 2019, 06:24 PM   #18
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A golden oldie.

(103 lies. How quaint.)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1A83F907-19A1-4409-AB24-E7E39E7033FC.jpg (19.7 KB, 315 views)
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Old 7th May 2019, 08:00 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
you a Muslim now? or Hindu?


No. I don't believe in ANYTHING supernatural. That would require evidence which no religion seems to be able to present.

But I do think some tenets of the judeo Christian ethics are worthwhile even though other religions do hold some of those values.

I find it strange somehow that Christians can and do continue to support Trump. I have never seen a human being ignore its teachings and rules so wilfully. I quoted that passage because Trump is emblematic of things their lord hates.

a lying tongue, CHECK
a heart that devises wicked plans, CHECK
feet that make haste to run to evil, CHECK
a false witness who breathes out lies, CHECK and DOUBLE CHECK
and one who sows discord among brothers TRIPLE CHECK

In my mind Trump is the least Christian person I've ever encountered. He doesn't love his brother. He doesn't treat others as he would want to be treated. His idea of the golden rule is to do to others and take their gold. He committed adultery on ALL of his wives.

And the truth is merely toilet paper he uses to wipe his ass. The man is sickening.
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Old 8th May 2019, 08:50 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I know right. I don't quite grasp this kind of false equivalence denial.


It's simple. Trump is the Conspiracy Theory President. He's been spouting and supporting conspiracy theories for years now, even to the extent of appearing on InfoWars. The Trump supporters we're arguing with now would have been the Truthers we were arguing with 10 years ago if they'd been around then. So it's no surprise they use the same sorts of talking points that were used then.

Seriously, what's the fundamental difference between someone asking us, "So, do you believe everything the government tells you?", and asking us, "So, do you believe everything Hillary Clinton tells you?"?

They're both fundamentally false dichotomies that ignore any semblance of nuance or context, and they're both standard go-to lines for Trumpers/Truthers.
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Old 8th May 2019, 09:19 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
A golden oldie.

(103 lies. How quaint.)
Ahh! But a lie that a Democrat tells, is automatically worth 100 lies that a Republican tells.

It's only bad when a Democrat does it!
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Old 8th May 2019, 09:46 AM   #22
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The OP was probably the hit-and-run work of a Russian troll farm.

Nothing is real. Nothing to get hung about. Strawberry fields...until they won't grow anymore.
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Old 8th May 2019, 02:02 PM   #23
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IsThisTheLife that was a real softball question, to be real.
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Old 8th May 2019, 02:31 PM   #24
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Quote:
Wowza. The things you see on the Internet. On a skeptics board no less.
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Old 8th May 2019, 03:39 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Most politicians do not lie to the scale of Trump. over 10,000 in his two years of office is unprecedented!
THIS!!!!! If trumpfs mouth is open a lie is tumbling out. This includes his flunkies and Fakes News!
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Old 8th May 2019, 03:54 PM   #26
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Donald Trump believes lying is part of his brilliance.

I believe his lies are ruinous.

I believe people that don't care he lies are complicit in the current ruinous situation.
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Old 8th May 2019, 11:39 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Donald Trump believes lying is part of his brilliance.

I believe his lies are ruinous.

I believe people that don't care he lies are complicit in the current ruinous situation.
It's corrosive. He lies so often and about so many different things, that nobody seems to care anymore (if they ever cared in the first place). Most of them (many anyway) would have been highly embarrassing to any previous president of either party, when called out. All the golf tournaments he claims to have won? Whatever, it's just Trump being Trump. He doesn't have to explain or justify it. No shame when they are pointed out as false.

And so we have a president where nothing he says can be taken at face value.
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Old 8th May 2019, 11:56 PM   #28
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The fact that Trump is a compulsive lair is that he even lies about things that he doesn't have too. He actually lies about things that would show him in a good light because he has to be seen in an even better light, but then the lie depletes the good that he did. He also lies about things that are important. When you look at a lot of the lies of other politicians, they really don't lie about things that are really important. Trump just doesn't care, he just says whatever he thinks will make him sound good at a any given moment regardless of the truth.

And he is encouraged and has this behaviour reinforced by people who are quite happy to believe and eat up whatever fake reality he creates for them to live in.
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Old 10th May 2019, 12:32 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Wowza. The things you see on the Internet. On a skeptics board no less.
You take issue with facts?
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Old 11th May 2019, 01:17 AM   #30
Aridas
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
You take issue with facts?
In this case, I actually find the number for Obama unconvincing. Politifact, for example, has 80 statements of Obama's that are False or Pants on Fire. That's a few more than... 17. Percentage-wise, Obama was fairly honest, of course. In statements that were found to be worth fact-checking by Politifact, only 24% were mostly false or worse. Trump, of course, has 70% of the checked statements as mostly false or worse.
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Old 11th May 2019, 09:29 AM   #31
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Trump is like a Jewish terrorist to my mind who is about to provoke war. He reminds me so much of the YouTube impersonation of a diplomat by Barry Humphries as Sir Les Patterson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v67JB7kPVWk
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Old 11th May 2019, 05:25 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Wowza. The things you see on the Internet. On a skeptics board no less.
New York Times: Trump's Lies vs. Obama's
Quote:
After we published a list of President Trump’s lies this summer, we heard a common response from his supporters. They said, in effect: Yes, but if you made a similar list for previous presidents, it would be just as bad.

We’ve set out to make that list. Here, you will find our attempt at a comprehensive catalog of the falsehoods that Barack Obama told while he was president. (We also discuss George W. Bush below, although the lack of real-time fact-checking during his presidency made a comprehensive list impossible.)

We applied the same conservative standard to Obama and Trump, counting only demonstrably and substantially false statements.
Perhaps you think they were too conservative? Well...

Quote:
If we had used a less strict standard, Trump would look even worse by comparison. He makes misleading statements and mild exaggerations – about economic statistics, his political opponents and many other subjects – far more often than Obama. We left out any statement that could be plausibly defended even if many people would disagree with the president's interpretation. We also left out modest quantitative errors, such as Trump's frequent imprecision with numbers.
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Old 11th May 2019, 05:54 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
New York Times: Trump's Lies vs. Obama's

Perhaps you think they were too conservative? Well...
For the fun of it... I'll add that Pants on Fire at Polifact was 1% for Obama and 15% for Trump. Numerically, it was well over an order of magnitude greater for Trump.
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Last edited by Aridas; 11th May 2019 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 11th May 2019, 06:55 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Can we just clear something up here? Do those that keep repeating that Trump "lies all the time" believe that most other politicians, not least HRC, don't lie? Or that they "don't lie as much"?
So. Have we cleared that up for you?

Remember: The most efficient way to get skeptics to STFU is to present evidence. If you have evidence that PDJT does not lie at least 10 times as much as previous US politicians, please present it.
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Old 11th May 2019, 07:21 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
New York Times: Trump's Lies vs. Obama's

Perhaps you think they were too conservative? Well...
I can't believe people really need this spelled out to recognize Trump is a pathologic liar as opposed to a politician that lies.
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Old 11th May 2019, 08:56 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I can't believe people really need this spelled out to recognize Trump is a pathologic liar as opposed to a politician that lies.
They know it already, they are just obfuscating just like they do with every other negative about Trump.
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Old 11th May 2019, 08:56 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I can't believe people really need this spelled out to recognize Trump is a pathologic liar as opposed to a politician that lies.
I was particularly taken by his my buildings are the tallest, nonsense.

(Apparently there would be gaps in the floor numbering schemes in Trump buildings so that floor numbers would be higher than the norm for buildings that size)
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Old 11th May 2019, 08:59 PM   #38
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More info:
Quote:
In real life, Trump Tower could not be elongated. But Trump Arithmetic found a way.

Though the tower was built with 58 floors, Mr. Trump later explained to The New York Times that because there was a soaring pink marble atrium and 19 commercial floors at the bottom, he could see no good reason not to list the first residential floor as the 30th floor. The pinnacle became the 68th — the height that appears in marketing materials, online search results and news articles to this day.
Link

The rest of the article is quite funny too.
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Old 11th May 2019, 09:44 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
I was particularly taken by his my buildings are the tallest, nonsense.

(Apparently there would be gaps in the floor numbering schemes in Trump buildings so that floor numbers would be higher than the norm for buildings that size)
Hey if they can leave the 13th floor out, let's just leave out all the teens.
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Old 11th May 2019, 09:46 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
More info:


Link

The rest of the article is quite funny too.
I should have known my silly speculating couldn't top Trump's clever rationalizing.
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