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Old 10th May 2019, 09:12 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The burden of proof falls equally on the status quo position.
The burden of proof falls nowhere on people who are inhumanly impossible to explain things to.

You can't claim burden of proof guest rights and need everything that's ever happened in the universe explained to you again in every conversation.

Rules of argumentative etiquette are for people who are capable of actual discourse, which isn't you.
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Old 10th May 2019, 09:19 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The burden of proof falls nowhere on people who are inhumanly impossible to explain things to.

You can't claim burden of proof guest rights and need everything that's ever happened in the universe explained to you again in every conversation.

Rules of argumentative etiquette are for people who are capable of actual discourse, which isn't you.
If presented with an alternative election system, are you capable of assessing if it is an improvement based on your existing metrics?
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Old 10th May 2019, 09:19 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The burden of proof falls nowhere on people who are inhumanly impossible to explain things to.

You can't claim burden of proof guest rights and need everything that's ever happened in the universe explained to you again in every conversation.

Rules of argumentative etiquette are for people who are capable of actual discourse, which isn't you.
And in today's episode of Short Attention Span Theater, Bob* asks, "Why is there air?"






*Not any Bob in particular, mind you, just some random guy named Bob, honest.
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Old 10th May 2019, 09:27 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If presented with an alternative election system, are you capable of assessing if it is an improvement based on your existing metrics?
Your mask is slipping there Bobby Boy.
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Old 10th May 2019, 09:28 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Your mask is slipping there Bobby Boy.
What are you talking about?
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Old 10th May 2019, 09:29 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What are you talking about?
Figure it out.
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Old 10th May 2019, 09:31 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Figure it out.
Burden of proof on the person making the claim.
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Old 10th May 2019, 11:08 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What I hat about most arguments about the electoral college is that the side in favor of the electoral college often argue for a principle (state's rights or rural vs Urban or something similar) rather than the electoral college itself.

So let's take that out of discussion. For sake of conversation, let's concede whatever principle you want is correct (whether it is federalism, or identity, or even if you want your candidates to win all the time). State whatever you want.

Why should the electoral college be the system we use to achieve that?
It is an anachronistic holdover from the the founders of COTUS, the little sates like Delaware and Rhode Island were thinking Georgia and Pennsylvania would overwhelm them in a direct vote.

No defense on my part
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Old 10th May 2019, 01:43 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Burden of proof on the person making the claim.
That response doesn't make sense. You didn't question whether he was correct, you questioned what it is he meant, and it's not proof that's required for that but clarification. And while I'm not interested in taking a position on whether he needs to clarify better or you need to understand better, the burden for communication in general rests upon both the speaker and the listener.
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Old 10th May 2019, 03:29 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That response doesn't make sense. You didn't question whether he was correct, you questioned what it is he meant, and it's not proof that's required for that but clarification. And while I'm not interested in taking a position on whether he needs to clarify better or you need to understand better, the burden for communication in general rests upon both the speaker and the listener.
Fair point. I'm hoping defense of the claim would help she'd light on what the claim even means.
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Old 10th May 2019, 04:10 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Fair point. I'm hoping defense of the claim would help she'd light on what the claim even means.
Seems unlikely. The way this usually goes, any light shed on the subject just get swallowed up by a growing black hole of incomprehension.
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Old 10th May 2019, 05:25 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Fair point. I'm hoping defense of the claim would help she'd light on what the claim even means.
No you aren't stop lying. You're just waiting for a claim to be made so you can go "Durr... durr... well then explain the claim" and again and again until we're explaining water is wet to you yet again.
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Old 10th May 2019, 05:30 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No you aren't stop lying. You're just waiting for a claim to be made so you can go "Durr... durr... well then explain the claim" and again and again until we're explaining water is wet to you yet again.
Then don't claim water is wet.
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Old 10th May 2019, 05:34 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then don't claim water is wet.
Mask is slipping again.

The act only works when it's believable Bob.
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:41 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Mask is slipping again.

The act only works when it's believable Bob.
If somebody explained x, they still have the burden of proof to prove x in the future.
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Old 10th May 2019, 07:07 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If we had Elizabeth Warren and I asked her questions about why her policies chose X instead of Y, she can articulate the answers.
How
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Old 10th May 2019, 08:00 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The key question is why the founders chose to include it.

James Madison explains:


In other words, the substitution of electors in place of a popular vote gave a boost to states (such as Madison's own) which held a large proportion of their residents in bondage.
James Madison is one of the founders. His motivations may not align with the motivations of the remaining founders whom agreed on including the EC in the constitution. Representing Mr. Madison’s opinion as the sole explanation for the EC is misleading. Not all historians agree that slavery was the driving force for the electoral college.
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Old 10th May 2019, 08:01 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
How
By speech or writing.

Welcome to the wonderful world of communication!
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Old 10th May 2019, 10:32 PM   #59
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Any system that would allow a directly elected leader to be voted to power when they had less actual votes cast for them than their opponent, is a flawed system. Most votes ought to win.... EVERY time.

But then, I think the whole US electoral system is a shamozzle, starting with the Senate. How can a system where a group of 700,000 people (0.2% of the population) is represented by 2% of the Senate, while another group of 40 million people (12% of the population) is also only represented by 2% of the Senate, call itself a Democracy.
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Old 11th May 2019, 12:37 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Any system that would allow a directly elected leader to be voted to power when they had less actual votes cast for them than their opponent, is a flawed system. Most votes ought to win.... EVERY time.

But then, I think the whole US electoral system is a shamozzle, starting with the Senate. How can a system where a group of 700,000 people (0.2% of the population) is represented by 2% of the Senate, while another group of 40 million people (12% of the population) is also only represented by 2% of the Senate, call itself a Democracy.
It is like the council of the EU.
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Old 11th May 2019, 02:05 AM   #61
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The EC could work by simply revising state laws, one at a time. You'd have to amend the Constitution to codify the needed changes on a national level.

Simply allow for proportional assignment of EC votes based on the statewide vote. The two states that currently do not have a winner take all system have chosen to do it by variations of CD and that is an improvement (because a state can be split) but it's still not in the spirit of the intentions of the Constitution.

The other problem is still insurmountable in that the smaller states will continue to be over-represented because of the cap on House members. This would require a constitution amendment, either removing that cap or setting a new one, or divorcing the EC vote from number of bodies in Congress and allowing fractions of votes for Vermont, Wyoming, etc...

They don't just hurt the biggest state with the inherent unfairness but actually hurt the fastest-growing-between-census-reapportionment states.
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Old 11th May 2019, 05:19 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
It is an anachronistic holdover from the the founders of COTUS, the little sates like Delaware and Rhode Island were thinking Georgia and Pennsylvania would overwhelm them in a direct vote.

No defense on my part
Now we have the whole country overwhelmed by the citizens of a few swing counties in Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida.

I lived in one of those swing counties in Florida for a couple of years. None of my neighbors had any business making important decisions for anyone, let alone the free world.
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Old 11th May 2019, 06:08 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What I hat about most arguments about the electoral college is that the side in favor of the electoral college often argue for a principle (state's rights or rural vs Urban or something similar) rather than the electoral college itself.

So let's take that out of discussion. For sake of conversation, let's concede whatever principle you want is correct (whether it is federalism, or identity, or even if you want your candidates to win all the time). State whatever you want.

Why should the electoral college be the system we use to achieve that?
I won't necessarily defend it, but I can certainly understand its purpose. I've noticed that the metropolitan voters in countries like Australia and Canada have permanently skewed the appointment of law-making in favour of "progressivism" over recent decades.

I've been visiting Australia periodically since 1984, mostly Melbourne and Brisbane. The last time was 2015 and I had a couple of slighty bizarre encounters with local authority employees in both cities. Both were female, the one in Melbourne was some kind of civilian 'warden' on the tram system, the second (actually in Toowoomba) simply a school loading time 'lollipop lady'.

I guess I'll have to elaborate; 11 AM on a lovely bright Winter's day in South Yarra, Melbourne, minding my own business in one of the many lovely, open green spaces in central Melbourne, deciding if I'd get a tram or walk up to Toorak. BUT ... I was smoking a filterless roll-up (to avoid littering) and I guess smoking in public now marks you out as a wong'un straight away.The 'tram warden' appeared out of nowhere - I turned around to find her literally in my face, and the first words out of her mouth were; "been drinking have we?". I quite literally thought "what the ****?" but almost instantly glommed what was happening, got pissed off, simply said "no" and turned my back on her.

The lollipop lady, well I won't bore you with the details but I'd apparently failed to adhere to the letter of implicit 'rules and regulations' (not actual law) dictating that I must be escorted across a (residential) street by her and she chose to scold me as if I was an errant child. WTF? again.

ETA >> the point of all this is that I think Australia is being ruined by ******* liberals and progressives and could well have used something like the US electoral college to prevent the ideologues responsible gaining so much administrative power.

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Old 11th May 2019, 06:32 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Any system that would allow a directly elected leader to be voted to power when they had less actual votes cast for them than their opponent, is a flawed system. Most votes ought to win.... EVERY time.

But then, I think the whole US electoral system is a shamozzle, starting with the Senate. How can a system where a group of 700,000 people (0.2% of the population) is represented by 2% of the Senate, while another group of 40 million people (12% of the population) is also only represented by 2% of the Senate, call itself a Democracy.
If only the likes of you could have consisted the Founding Fathers instead of those foolish old white men, eh?
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Old 11th May 2019, 06:33 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
I won't necessarily defend it, but I can certainly understand its purpose. I've noticed that the metropolitan voters in countries like Australia and Canada have permanently skewed the appointment of law-making in favour of "progressivism" over recent decades.

I've been visiting Australia periodically since 1984, mostly Melbourne and Brisbane. The last time was 2015 and I had a couple of slighty bizarre encounters with local authority employees in both cities. Both were female, the one in Melbourne was some kind of civilian 'warden' on the tram system, the second (actually in Toowoomba) simply a school loading time 'lollipop lady'.

I guess I'll have to elaborate; 11 AM on a lovely bright Winter's day in South Yarra, Melbourne, minding my own business in one of the many lovely, open green spaces in central Melbourne, deciding if I'd get a tram or walk up to Toorak. BUT ... I was smoking a filterless roll-up (to avoid littering) and I guess smoking in public now marks you out as a wong'un straight away.The 'tram warden' appeared out of nowhere - I turned around to find her literally in my face, and the first words out of her mouth were; "been drinking have we?". I quite literally thought "what the ****?" but almost instantly glommed what was happening, got pissed off, simply said "no" and turned my back on her.

The lollipop lady, well I won't bore you with the details but I'd apparently failed to adhere to the letter of implicit 'rules and regulations' (not actual law) dictating that I must be escorted across a (residential) street by her and she chose to scold me as if I was an errant child. WTF? again.

ETA >> the point of all this is that I think Australia is being ruined by ******* liberals and progressives and could well have used something like the US electoral college to prevent the ideologues responsible gaining so much administrative power.
You are falling into the same trap I pointed out in my OP.

You are not defending it. You are defending a concept based on a value about the distribution of voting power. If we concede that, defend the electoral college against alternatives to accomplish that.


And the purpose of the electoral college was to address the problem of not permitting a third of the southern population to vote.
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Old 11th May 2019, 06:48 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
By speech or writing.

Welcome to the wonderful world of communication!

Why
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Old 11th May 2019, 06:50 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You are falling into the same trap I pointed out in my OP.

You are not defending it. You are defending a concept based on a value about the distribution of voting power. If we concede that, defend the electoral college against alternatives to accomplish that.


And the purpose of the electoral college was to address the problem of not permitting a third of the southern population to vote.
I'll be frank - I believe 'liberal democracy', the simplistic 'ideal' of "one man/woman, one vote" cannot work and never will, that all societies which try to implement it are doomed to self-destruct by a process of decay and will collapse within a few generations.

I sometimes actually wonder if the only stable societal and administraive system, and the nearest to a 'natural state', is a feudal or caste one, where people who don't know their place are put in them. I'm only half joking
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Old 11th May 2019, 06:53 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
I'll be frank - I believe 'liberal democracy', the simplistic 'ideal' of "one man/woman, one vote" cannot work and never will, that all societies which try to implement it are doomed to self-destruct by a process of decay and will collapse within a few generations.

I sometimes actually wonder if the only stable societal and administraive system, and the nearest to a 'natural state', is a feudal or caste one, where people who don't know their place are put in them. I'm only half joking
You are discussing concepts again. As I mentioned in the first post, I'm willing to concede any concept or value. Having conceded that, I want to hear specific systems and how to rank them.
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Old 11th May 2019, 07:07 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You are discussing concepts again. As I mentioned in the first post, I'm willing to concede any concept or value. Having conceded that, I want to hear specific systems and how to rank them.
Fuedal and caste systems are "specific". The former consisted Western European government for a millennium until c.1550, the latter still effectively forms the basis of government of the Indian sub-continent and has done for several millennia.

If you're asking for a specific method of weighting a democratic voting system, why? What's wrong the one you have (in the US)? Just because it didn't get HRC into office it should be replaced? I'm sure this forum won't be hosting drawn-out critiques and discussions about it once a Democrat is back in the WH.
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Old 11th May 2019, 07:23 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Why
Because it bothers you and it makes me happy when you suffer.
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Old 11th May 2019, 08:30 AM   #71
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There are plenty of reasons for retaining the Electoral College:

1. Remember the Florida recount? Multiply that by 50 in the event of a close popular vote.

2. It limits the effect of any skullduggery that a corrupt party organization in one state can do. Let the Democrats resurrect everybody from the graves in Illinois on election day a la the Night King; it will not impact the EC vote one iota.

3. It gives liberals something to bitch about that they are never going to change, even with their popular vote interstate compact.
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Old 11th May 2019, 08:51 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Now we have the whole country overwhelmed by the citizens of a few swing counties in Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida.

I lived in one of those swing counties in Florida for a couple of years. None of my neighbors had any business making important decisions for anyone, let alone the free world.
Swing districts only matter on issues that are extremely divisive or controversial. And they play out exactly as one would expect on issues that are divisive and controversial. One faction achieves "victory" by a narrow and contentious margin, vast swaths of the electorate are dissatisfied with the results, and nobody is inclined to concede or compromise on anything.

The presidency is actually a good example of how to handle this kind of scenario. It's not permanent. Nobody likes the outcome? Fine, we're going to try again in four years anyway. And in eight years we'll undo it and try again regardless.

I wish all legislation were handled with the same attitude. If you have to wait for the perfect storm of like-minded legislators to gain majority and pass your bill, and even then it's a grinding political battle and half the country hates the result? Maybe you shouldn't plan on having that legislation persist any longer than your factional coalition does.

Anyway, I think there's something to be said for any system of government that does not privilege your vote over the votes of people that you believe have no business voting. That's just the Führerprinzip writ small. I'm glad that in this country, at least, it's still small enough to be easily suppressed at the polls.
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Old 11th May 2019, 09:21 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Fuedal and caste systems are "specific". The former consisted Western European government for a millennium until c.1550, the latter still effectively forms the basis of government of the Indian sub-continent and has done for several millennia.

If you're asking for a specific method of weighting a democratic voting system, why? What's wrong the one you have (in the US)? Just because it didn't get HRC into office it should be replaced? I'm sure this forum won't be hosting drawn-out critiques and discussions about it once a Democrat is back in the WH.
Did you actually read the OP? The reason why is there. If you have further questions, I will gladly answer them.
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Old 11th May 2019, 10:13 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
I won't necessarily defend it, but I can certainly understand its purpose. I've noticed that the metropolitan voters in countries like Australia and Canada have permanently skewed the appointment of law-making in favour of "progressivism" over recent decades.

I've been visiting Australia periodically since 1984, mostly Melbourne and Brisbane. The last time was 2015 and I had a couple of slighty bizarre encounters with local authority employees in both cities. Both were female, the one in Melbourne was some kind of civilian 'warden' on the tram system, the second (actually in Toowoomba) simply a school loading time 'lollipop lady'.

I guess I'll have to elaborate; 11 AM on a lovely bright Winter's day in South Yarra, Melbourne, minding my own business in one of the many lovely, open green spaces in central Melbourne, deciding if I'd get a tram or walk up to Toorak. BUT ... I was smoking a filterless roll-up (to avoid littering) and I guess smoking in public now marks you out as a wong'un straight away.The 'tram warden' appeared out of nowhere - I turned around to find her literally in my face, and the first words out of her mouth were; "been drinking have we?". I quite literally thought "what the ****?" but almost instantly glommed what was happening, got pissed off, simply said "no" and turned my back on her.

The lollipop lady, well I won't bore you with the details but I'd apparently failed to adhere to the letter of implicit 'rules and regulations' (not actual law) dictating that I must be escorted across a (residential) street by her and she chose to scold me as if I was an errant child. WTF? again.

ETA >> the point of all this is that I think Australia is being ruined by ******* liberals and progressives and could well have used something like the US electoral college to prevent the ideologues responsible gaining so much administrative power.
But at least you are alive to talk about it. If you were an Australian who broke the unwritten laws of living in the US you might be just shot dead by a local LEO.

I have previously argued for all states having to aportion EC votes proportionately.
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Old 11th May 2019, 02:58 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Now we have the whole country overwhelmed by the citizens of a few swing counties in Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida.

I lived in one of those swing counties in Florida for a couple of years. None of my neighbors had any business making important decisions for anyone, let alone the free world.
Panhandle?
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Old 11th May 2019, 03:00 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
ETA >> the point of all this is that I think Australia is being ruined by ******* liberals and progressives and could well have used something like the US electoral college to prevent the ideologues responsible gaining so much administrative power.
"Ruined" depends on your perspective.

I guess if you are a white, privileged, well-to-do member of Australian Society, you could well regard the fact that the common rabble now get safe and fair working conditions, social security, universal medical care, a good and efficient Police force, has "ruined" the country.

If you are a member of the common rabble ... not so much.
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Old 11th May 2019, 03:04 PM   #77
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
I won't necessarily defend it, but I can certainly understand its purpose. I've noticed that the metropolitan voters in countries like Australia and Canada have permanently skewed the appointment of law-making in favour of "progressivism" over recent decades.

I've been visiting Australia periodically since 1984, mostly Melbourne and Brisbane. The last time was 2015 and I had a couple of slighty bizarre encounters with local authority employees in both cities. Both were female, the one in Melbourne was some kind of civilian 'warden' on the tram system, the second (actually in Toowoomba) simply a school loading time 'lollipop lady'.

I guess I'll have to elaborate; 11 AM on a lovely bright Winter's day in South Yarra, Melbourne, minding my own business in one of the many lovely, open green spaces in central Melbourne, deciding if I'd get a tram or walk up to Toorak. BUT ... I was smoking a filterless roll-up (to avoid littering) and I guess smoking in public now marks you out as a wong'un straight away.The 'tram warden' appeared out of nowhere - I turned around to find her literally in my face, and the first words out of her mouth were; "been drinking have we?". I quite literally thought "what the ****?" but almost instantly glommed what was happening, got pissed off, simply said "no" and turned my back on her.

The lollipop lady, well I won't bore you with the details but I'd apparently failed to adhere to the letter of implicit 'rules and regulations' (not actual law) dictating that I must be escorted across a (residential) street by her and she chose to scold me as if I was an errant child. WTF? again.

ETA >> the point of all this is that I think Australia is being ruined by ******* liberals and progressives and could well have used something like the US electoral college to prevent the ideologues responsible gaining so much administrative power.
So your encounter with two women, whose politics you are completely ignorant of, chiding you is somehow evidence of Australia being "ruined by ******* liberals and progressives"?
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Old 11th May 2019, 03:33 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
There are plenty of reasons for retaining the Electoral College:

1. Remember the Florida recount? Multiply that by 50 in the event of a close popular vote.

2. It limits the effect of any skullduggery that a corrupt party organization in one state can do. Let the Democrats resurrect everybody from the graves in Illinois on election day a la the Night King; it will not impact the EC vote one iota.

3. It gives liberals something to bitch about that they are never going to change, even with their popular vote interstate compact.
This is quite obviously not accurate.
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Old 11th May 2019, 03:35 PM   #79
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Quote:
Can someone defend the actual electoral college?
No.
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:00 PM   #80
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We all get that the side the benefits from the EC is going to see nothing wrong with it and the side that doesn't isn't. We can just assume that and move forward.

The question is if it's fair or not.
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