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Old 24th May 2019, 09:47 AM   #241
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Experience. Opinion.

Are you expecting that such a question can be analyzed objectively?
Generally, if we want to figure out if something is addressing a concern, we measure it.

Or we can just make it up and assert with no evidence that it accomplishes something
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Old 24th May 2019, 09:52 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I don't consider that better. Too complex. The rules of the game could change too often.

See, I don't feel I have to defend a system that has been working rather well for more than two centuries. If one wants to change that system, then it would be on them to make the case for it being a "better" or "fairer" system.
Two things

A) more complex? It is one function. It isn't tied to recording seats. Electors don't have to meet separately. Parties don't have to pick electors, there is no option for faithless electors. States don't have to determine how to dstribute electors. Where is the complication?

There only exists one function. It wouldnt change unless you chose to change it.

B) you don't know if it is working well, apparently. And no one can tell you what is a better system to you any more than they can convince you of what your favorite color is. Better is based on your values.
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Old 24th May 2019, 09:57 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I only care what xjx thinks with my post. If someone provided a different list of priorities, I would shape a different proposal to their preferences.
If this is the case, then we are fortunate that your none of your exceptional ideas will ever get worked into the Constitution.
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Old 24th May 2019, 09:59 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I do not think we should be meddling with something that has worked relatively well for so long without considering the ramifications of that meddling on the end goal: Representing the States will on who will govern the Union of States. And we certainly shouldn't be meddling simply because some people don't like the results of a particular election.
The problem is that it doesn't work all that well because of the WTA system in each state. In too many states, it means that the vote of the people is irrelevant.

I agree that the current weighting is about right for the reasons you gave. However, each state should allocate their EC votes proportionally instead of just giving them all to one candidate who may not even get an absolute majority of the votes in that state.
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Old 24th May 2019, 10:01 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The problem is that it doesn't work all that well because of the WTA system in each state. In too many states, it means that the vote of the people is irrelevant.

I agree that the current weighting is about right for the reasons you gave. However, each state should allocate their EC votes proportionally instead of just giving them all to one candidate who may not even get an absolute majority of the votes in that state.
What about if we use the best-fit-function proposal I just made? That way, it is weighted proportionally for states and provides for finer allocation.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 24th May 2019 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 24th May 2019, 10:21 AM   #246
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There are ways to undermine the EC, if we can't get rid of it.
One way to help both your preferred party and third parties, you can participate in vote-swapping programs: if your party is safe were you live but struggles in another district, you can offer to swap your vote with a third-party voter in said district.
This increases the chance of your side winning and boosts the profile of third party candidates.
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Old 24th May 2019, 10:25 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The problem is that it doesn't work all that well because of the WTA system in each state. In too many states, it means that the vote of the people is irrelevant.



I agree that the current weighting is about right for the reasons you gave. However, each state should allocate their EC votes proportionally instead of just giving them all to one candidate who may not even get an absolute majority of the votes in that state.


That should be up to each State to decide. I would not oppose a proportional distribution in Texas to better represent the will of all the people in Texas. But rather than proportional, maybe it would be better by congressional district? Like the 2 senate votes go to the overall winner and the rest are given to each districtís winner (one for each seat in the House).

No matter how you slice it, somebodyís votes arenít going to count. For example, South Texas is very Democrat. Everyone who votes Repub? Their votes are meaningless.
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:36 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
No matter how you slice it, somebodyís votes arenít going to count.
Yeah so how about we don't "slice it" and just count every vote?
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:45 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah so how about we don't "slice it" and just count every vote?


From my point of view, because it undermines the purpose of a union of independent States with their own rights and powers.

Also. We do count every vote. In a nation where the majority of people are Democrat leaning (Dems have won the ďpopular voteĒ the last four out of five elections, no?), the votes of Republicans and especially third parties donít count -just as they donít count in districts/counties that are Dem strongholds. You are just proposing to slice it in a different way.
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:49 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah so how about we don't "slice it" and just count every vote?
Even then, somebody's vote won't count.
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Old 24th May 2019, 12:08 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Even then, somebody's vote won't count.
How so?
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Old 24th May 2019, 12:10 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
From my point of view, because it undermines the purpose of a union of independent States with their own rights and powers.

Also. We do count every vote. In a nation where the majority of people are Democrat leaning (Dems have won the ďpopular voteĒ the last four out of five elections, no?), the votes of Republicans and especially third parties donít count -just as they donít count in districts/counties that are Dem strongholds. You are just proposing to slice it in a different way.
I guess I'm just of the opinion that we as a country should have lost our hard on for "States As These Autonomous Mini-Countries" right about the time half of them went to war to retain the right to own other people.

And "My vote didn't matter" and "My vote literally didn't count" aren't the same thing.

If your candidate only gets 10% of the vote and doesn't win that doesn't mean your vote didn't count, it just means you didn't win.

If you vote as a block of 100 voters, and 60% of those voters voted for Candidate A and 40% voted for Candidate B so Candidate B gets all 100 votes, then your vote literally doesn't count.
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Old 24th May 2019, 12:21 PM   #253
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The most common type of defense I've heard for the Electoral College is something along the lines of "Well... it's the way we've been doing it for all these years. Trying to change it would be too much work"
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Old 24th May 2019, 12:29 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I guess I'm just of the opinion that we as a country should have lost our hard on for "States As These Autonomous Mini-Countries" right about the time half of them went to war to retain the right to own other people.



And "My vote didn't matter" and "My vote literally didn't count" aren't the same thing.



If your candidate only gets 10% of the vote and doesn't win that doesn't mean your vote didn't count, it just means you didn't win.



If you vote as a block of 100 voters, and 60% of those voters voted for Candidate A and 40% voted for Candidate B so Candidate B gets all 100 votes, then your vote literally doesn't count.

We count all votes; all votes count. We just count them on a state by state basis for the Presidential election. Win Texas, the prize is 38 EVs. Trump got 52% of the vote, Clinton 43%. Trump wins Texas and gets the EVs. So, as you point out, you canít say that the votes that went to Clinton didnít count, she just lost.

Clinton had 48%, Trump had 42%; therefore, Trump wins is a misleading way to put it. That isnít the game we are playing.
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Old 24th May 2019, 12:30 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
The most common type of defense I've heard for the Electoral College is something along the lines of "Well... it's the way we've been doing it for all these years. Trying to change it would be too much work"
"... Without enough clear benefit."
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Old 24th May 2019, 12:33 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
We count all votes; all votes count. We just count them on a state by state basis for the Presidential election. Win Texas, the prize is 38 EVs. Trump got 52% of the vote, Clinton 43%. Trump wins Texas and gets the EVs. So, as you point out, you canít say that the votes that went to Clinton didnít count, she just lost.

Clinton had 48%, Trump had 42%; therefore, Trump wins is a misleading way to put it. That isnít the game we are playing.
I disagree. "Clustering" votes makes it inherently unfair.

If 100 people voted for Hillary and 90 voted for Trump it shouldn't matter how many people voted for Trump in this State and how many voted for Hillary in that State and how many votes Hillary lost to Sanders in this other State and so forth and so on.

Again at the end of the day more voting members of the American populace wanted Hillary to be President then Trump, but Trump is the President. You can't make that 'fair' no matter how you twist it.
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Old 24th May 2019, 01:01 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
That should be up to each State to decide.
Then most states would retain WTA since that maximizes their influence in the POTUS election but disenfranchises lots of voters.

If all states had to allocate the EC votes proportionally then a state like California wouldn't have to worry that if they went proportional then their influence could be swamped if Texas retained WTA.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I would not oppose a proportional distribution in Texas to better represent the will of all the people in Texas. But rather than proportional, maybe it would be better by congressional district? Like the 2 senate votes go to the overall winner and the rest are given to each districtís winner (one for each seat in the House).
That is marginally better than WTA but the results would still be heavily skewed. In the 2016 election, it would have given Trump 27 EC votes and Clinton 11 EC votes which is way out of proportion to the percentages they received.

Why not just statewide proportional? Under the Webster/Sainte-LaguŽ method of distributing the votes, Trump would have gotten 20 EC votes, Clinton 17 EC votes and Johnson 1 EC vote. Can you think of a fairer distribution than that?
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Old 24th May 2019, 02:27 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I disagree. "Clustering" votes makes it inherently unfair.
That depends on what the end goal is. If the goal is to give States a seat at the national table, which is what the Constitution is set up to do, then clustering votes by State is the only fair thing to do.

Quote:
If 100 people voted for Hillary and 90 voted for Trump it shouldn't matter how many people voted for Trump in this State and how many voted for Hillary in that State and how many votes Hillary lost to Sanders in this other State and so forth and so on.
But it does matter because that's the way our Federal system is set up. I don't see the benefit in removing the "seats at the table" of the smaller States.

Think of it in terms of that "National Popular Vote Compact," thing. In my opinion, it's basically the State legislature saying, "It doesn't matter what the citizens of our State vote, we are giving all our votes to the popular vote winner." So let's say California votes 60% Dem, the Dem would have won the electoral vote under the old system, but the Repub wins the popular vote. Do you think giving all of CA's EV's to to the Repub represents the interests of Californians?

Quote:
Again at the end of the day more voting members of the American populace wanted Hillary to be President then Trump, but Trump is the President. You can't make that 'fair' no matter how you twist it.
It's the rules of the game, so how can it be unfair? You just want to play a different game.
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Old 25th May 2019, 01:13 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again at the end of the day more voting members of the American populace wanted Hillary to be President then Trump, but Trump is the President. You can't make that 'fair' no matter how you twist it.
There was no run-off election so we don't know who should have won.
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Old 25th May 2019, 05:08 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
But it does matter because that's the way our Federal system is set up. I don't see the benefit in removing the "seats at the table" of the smaller States.
Smaller states are already ignored under the EC. Along with larger and mid-sized states. The only states that matter in the EC are states with a wishy-washy population, the so-called "Battleground States". Republicans in Vermont and California, as well as Democrats in Montana and Texas might as well not exist as far as the electoral college is concerned.

Quote:
Think of it in terms of that "National Popular Vote Compact," thing. In my opinion, it's basically the State legislature saying, "It doesn't matter what the citizens of our State vote, we are giving all our votes to the popular vote winner." So let's say California votes 60% Dem, the Dem would have won the electoral vote under the old system, but the Repub wins the popular vote. Do you think giving all of CA's EV's to to the Repub represents the interests of Californians?
The whole point of the NPVC is that it is no longer the states' votes for President. It is a national vote for President, with some legal argy-bargy to bypass the onerous Constitutional Amendment requirements.

Quote:
It's the rules of the game, so how can it be unfair? You just want to play a different game.
The fact that "it's the rules" does not in and of itself mean the rules are any good. The Electoral Vote scheme is really based on the fact that the United States is a physically large country, and it times a long time to travel from one end to the other on horseback. That's why we vote on Tuesdays. It takes a day to travel by horse to the polling station, and you can't travel on a Sunday. We only really go along with it out of inertia more than anything else.

Here are three good reasons to ditch the EV.

1 - It ignores voters in heavily red or blue states. Large state or small, Democrat or Republican, it doesn't matter, they get ignored in the Presidential race. The campaign staff on both sides just chalk up the EV totals of those states, and focus on trying to get an assortment of battleground states to get them to 270.

2 - It has given us two presidents who lost the popular votes in the last five elections, and it is only going to get worse. Because the game only depends on being first past the post in the right collection of battleground states, elections can come down to a handful of votes in a handful of states. With big data, micro-targeting ads, and powerful optimization algorithms, that gets easier and easier to accomplish. Of course, the other guy is doing the same thing, leading to a conflict, not of ideas or the popular will, but of PR firm computer programs. Imagine a system where the EV winner and the PV winner are different 50% of the time, and the margins of victory in the battleground states are measured in the tens. Where 9 out of ten Americans never sees a Presidential ad, and the tenth person is inundated by them. It will be a system where everyone votes for the President, the Popular Vote winner is determined, and then someone flips a coin to determine who will actually become President. That is the future we are heading towards.

3 - It warps policy. Because winning the Presidency is not about national sentiment, but about winning a majority of voters in the right states, political groups in those states have a greatly magnified influence on policy. In 2012, Obama did not push for doing something about global warming, because he didn't want to upset coal miners in Pennsylvania. Our policy towards Cuba for decades was based on Cuban refugees in Florida, even though we as a country were perfectly happy to normalize relations with China. And if we include the influence of early primary states, we have Iowa corn growers and Ethanol.
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Old 25th May 2019, 05:21 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It's the rules of the game, so how can it be unfair? You just want to play a different game.
Oh save the "Don't hate the player, hate the game" crap.

What kind of nonsense is this even? It can't be wrong if it's "the system?"

Systems can be unfair. Systems can be broken. Stop acting like just going "That's the system" is some kind of mic drop.
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Old 25th May 2019, 06:50 AM   #262
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It feels like in the week that this has been up, I have came up with two ideas on pro-state vote weighting. I seem to have matched the intellectual output that side has made in 200 years.

Frankly, where is the writing, analyses, and calculations on it? The lack of curiosity and innovation is shocking.
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Old 25th May 2019, 07:01 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It feels like in the week that this has been up, I have came up with two ideas on pro-state vote weighting. I seem to have matched the intellectual output that side has made in 200 years.

Frankly, where is the writing, analyses, and calculations on it? The lack of curiosity and innovation is shocking.
Appeal to incredulity.
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Old 25th May 2019, 07:24 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Appeal to incredulity.
No. That is a logical fallacy when making an argument in support of a claim. But I'm not making a claim. Im literally communicating my incredulity at the lack of philosophical and technical research coming from the state weighting side.

I have no claim to make. I have no opinion on how votes should be tallied.
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Old 25th May 2019, 07:28 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It feels like in the week that this has been up, I have came up with two ideas on pro-state vote weighting. I seem to have matched the intellectual output that side has made in 200 years.

Frankly, where is the writing, analyses, and calculations on it? The lack of curiosity and innovation is shocking.
There's plenty of that Bob, there's just none of your usual "Pretend concepts can't be explained while demanding they be explained past the point of sanity" trolling.

What is going on is what happens when adult humans have a discussion. Give it a try sometime.
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Old 25th May 2019, 07:36 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There's plenty of that Bob, there's just none of your usual "Pretend concepts can't be explained while demanding they be explained past the point of sanity" trolling.

What is going on is what happens when adult humans have a discussion. Give it a try sometime.
Plenty of that? Do you know of a paper that has developed a way to measure different vote weighting methods?
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Old 25th May 2019, 07:39 AM   #267
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"Philosophical research."

You're claiming that it's incredible that there hasn't been more research. But so far your only support for that claim is the claim itself.
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Old 25th May 2019, 07:50 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Philosophical research."

You're claiming that it's incredible that there hasn't been more research. But so far your only support for that claim is the claim itself.
I'm not claiming anything beyond my own emotional state. I'm expressing my sense of incredulity. No one has any obligation to feel the same way.
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Old 25th May 2019, 11:29 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm not claiming anything beyond my own emotional state. I'm expressing my sense of incredulity. No one has any obligation to feel the same way.
Oh will you sod off with that nonsense. Stop it with the whole "I don't have to make sense because I'm not 'claiming' anything" routine.

If you're in a discussion you have a point. If you have a point your point needs to... ya know have a point.

This whole stupid persona you have where you think just pretending you don't have any convictions about anything gets you a total intellectual out grow old the first time you ruined a thread with it.
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Old 25th May 2019, 12:28 PM   #270
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh will you sod off with that nonsense. Stop it with the whole "I don't have to make sense because I'm not 'claiming' anything" routine.

If you're in a discussion you have a point. If you have a point your point needs to... ya know have a point.

This whole stupid persona you have where you think just pretending you don't have any convictions about anything gets you a total intellectual out grow old the first time you ruined a thread with it.
I don't have a position. I have questions. That is why I made the thread
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Old 25th May 2019, 03:57 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't have a position. I have questions. That is why I made the thread
That's always your position.
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Old 25th May 2019, 04:06 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
That's always your position.
It's a pose.

Bob actually has a position here.
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Old 25th May 2019, 04:09 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's a pose.

Bob actually has a position here.
I do not. I really don't know if votes should be weighted by states or not, and if they are weighted, how they should be weighted.
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Old 25th May 2019, 04:09 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't have a position. I have questions. That is why I made the thread
Of course you do. It's the same position you always have "Nobody else's position is good enough for me, so if I say I don't have one I win." It's old and stale.

Grow up, Bob. In case you aren't catching on people aren't buying it anymore and are capable of having actual adult discussions and debate and disagreements around you.
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Old 25th May 2019, 04:14 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Of course you do. It's the same position you always have "Nobody else's position is good enough for me, so if I say I don't have one I win." It's old and stale.

Grow up, Bob. In case you aren't catching on people aren't buying it anymore and are capable of having actual adult discussions and debate and disagreements around you.
Which is not having a position.

Do you think I secretly have strongly held positions on all these issues and simply don't bring them up?
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Old 25th May 2019, 04:18 PM   #276
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Okay so back on topic.

So what's the benefit of "states" at this point that's not just "Well we've always done it that way" non-answers?

And remember there's a difference between allowing the states to have minor variations on things within their own borders and allowing states as entities separate from the citizens in them pass laws that other states have to follow.
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- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
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Old 25th May 2019, 04:20 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay so back on topic.

So what's the benefit of "states" at this point that's not just "Well we've always done it that way" non-answers?

And remember there's a difference between allowing the states to have minor variations on things within their own borders and allowing states as entities separate from the citizens in them pass laws that other states have to follow.
Do you think this is an argument they haven't heard before?
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Old 25th May 2019, 04:23 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I do not. I really don't know if votes should be weighted by states or not, and if they are weighted, how they should be weighted.
And yet here we are, in a thread you started. Unless you can delete the thread, you have a position.
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Old 25th May 2019, 04:24 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And yet here we are, in a thread you started. Unless you can delete the thread, you have a position.
I'm asking questions to get the data to maybe eventually have a position.
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Old 25th May 2019, 04:31 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm asking questions to get the data to maybe eventually have a position.
"Maybe eventually."

And you wonder why nobody gives a **** about your homework assignments.
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