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Old 12th June 2019, 10:05 AM   #241
kellyb
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
That has nothing to do with the private insurance people take out. Only how the government health care is funded.


Which still qualifies it as "Not single payer".

Oh, and by the way... keep in mind that in the article you mentioned it states:
In recent years, the growing economy and increased consumer demand for higher quality healthcare has created a significant amount of financial pressures on the system resulting in a cumulative deficit in the system...

So, in short:
- Its not a single payer system
- The parts that are government-funded seem to be running out of money
Actual professional health care wonks call S Korean health care "single-payer."

At some point you're just using a private definition of the phrase unique to you.

eta:
Health care is getting more expensive everywhere, so your additional point is irrelevant.
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Last edited by kellyb; 12th June 2019 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 12th June 2019, 10:14 AM   #242
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Quote:
Actually I wasn't thinking of the government signing off on procedures on an individual basis. My argument is that the government makes decisions that impact patients in a broad, overall way, that gives the patient absolutely no recourse.
Other than lack of demand (which should tell you something) there is nothing preventing the buying/selling of private insurance for drugs/treatments not covered under standard government plans.
However, you cannot (for example) create a publicly funded MRI clinic or PET scanner (regardless of the demand for it), because MRI treatments ARE covered (although subject to a waiting list.)
Quote:
Having coverage that overlaps with the standardized coverage, however, creates a whole host of issues so it’s generally best not to allow it.
What, issues like getting faster treatment? Yeah, that's horrible. Of course, you've already established that living with horrible pain is nothing more than "an annoyance" and that having a condition that can lead to strokes can be safely ignored. So thanks for that. Without you, I would have thought those were things to be avoided.

Other countries manage to have private health care that overlaps the public system, and their health care costs are 1) pretty much in line with ours, and 2) generally rank better in terms of wait times and outcomes.

Doesn't really sound to me like the 'issues' are insurmountable if other counties can do it.
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Old 12th June 2019, 10:19 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
However, you cannot (for example) create a publicly funded MRI clinic or PET scanner (regardless of the demand for it), because MRI treatments ARE covered (although subject to a waiting list.)
What's up with this?

https://www.bcliving.ca/mri-scans-wa...ate-mri-clinic
Quote:
Innes says he’s started to refer patients to the many private MRI scanning labs that have opened around the province. While this means a near-immediate appointment, it also means you have to shoulder the cost, and it’s no small amount; an MRI scan costs around $699 in Vancouver and about $875 in Victoria.


eta: http://www.canadadiagnostic.com/
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Last edited by kellyb; 12th June 2019 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 12th June 2019, 10:26 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Quote:
I am really amazed at how much people are willing to stretch reality to try to fit their own misguided views.

Who said: "You are not going to be able, in the long run, to have cost-effective, universal health care unless you change the system, unless you get rid of the insurance companies" Hint: His name rhymes with Sernie Banders.
The BILL doesn't say that, though.
You know who you remind me of?

I remember seeing a clip on a comedy show from a Trump supporter who lived on the U.S./Mexico border, and was going to lose his business because of Trump's wall. The interviewer reminds him: Trump said he was going to build a wall. Supporter claims "its just a metaphor".Interviewer: Here's Trump describing the wall. Supporter: Its just a figure of speech. They were SO determined to stick to supporting Trump regardless of whatever evidence was provided.

Only with you, its Sanders and 'single payer' health care.

Sanders: Private insurance should be eliminated
You: You will still be able to get private insurance
Sander's bill: You can't offer private insurance for things covered in the public system, and the public system will cover everything
You: You will still be able to get private insurance

You're really hanging on to your own little claims with every ounce of strength aren't you.

All sorts of experts point out that Sander's plan will eliminate private insurance for anything covered in the public plan.

As the washington post states:
...Section 107 looks like a loophole for single-payer supporters to claim that private insurance is not being eliminated, even as the main sponsor says he wants to put health insurance companies out of the business. There is virtually nothing left on the table but a few crumbs. Harris called it “supplemental insurance,” which sounds a lot like Medigap policies, but the reality is likely far different than that. Given the back-and-forth between Harris and Tapper, we can’t quite award Pinocchios. But her language is slippery. She could more forthrightly admit that the health plan she supports envisions virtually no role for the private insurance now used by nearly 220 million Americans.
(Note: this was a 'fact check' by the Washington post over an interview with Harris, who also supports Single payer.
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Old 12th June 2019, 10:51 AM   #245
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What's up with this?

https://www.bcliving.ca/mri-scans-wa...ate-mri-clinic

Innes says he’s started to refer patients to the many private MRI scanning labs that have opened around the province.
I have to admit, I wasn't aware that BC was offering private MRI service.

Let me see if I can address your confusion:

I have simplified my description of the Canadian health care system. Technically we do not have one health care system, we have 10 health care systems (one for each province), and a federal government that sets standards that each province has to follow, as well as provides partial funding (with the province paying for the rest out of its own tax base.)

This means that you can actually get variations in what is covered and how health care is run between different parts of the country. Sometimes the federal government will step in and say "No, you can't allow private fees for that", other times they will let it pass. But for argument's sake, its easier to just talk about "Canada's health care" rather than referring to individual provinces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Health_Act

My province (Ontario) does not allow privately funded MRI clinics... However, the adjacent province (Quebec) DOES allow private clinics. But, there are also some services where everything is still government funded, in all provinces.

As I have stated, I was unaware that the province of BC started to allow private MRI clinics, but it may just be a temporary situation. It appears that they are only going to be allowed to operate temporarily.

From: https://vancouversun.com/news/local-...ars-wait-lists
Extra billing by doctors for medically necessary treatments is set to end Oct. 1 when the Medicare Protection Act comes into effect, with the notable exception of MRI imaging. Private clinics can continue to bill patients for those diagnostic services until April 1, 2019, to help clear lengthy wait lists for the procedure.

To add to the confusion: A few years ago, the government was sued over long wait times and its refusal to allow private insurance. The case made it to the supreme court, who agreed.... Access to wait lists is not the same as access to health care, and the government's refusal to allow private insurance was considered 'cruel/unfair' under the law. However, the ruling only applied to Quebec.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaoulli_v_Quebec_(AG)
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Old 12th June 2019, 11:24 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
However, you cannot (for example) create a publicly funded MRI clinic or PET scanner (regardless of the demand for it), because MRI treatments ARE covered (although subject to a
I don’t understand what are saying. Provinces can create a publicity funded MRI clinic any time they want and there are MRI services available both from private clinics and non-profit clinics as well.
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
What, issues like getting faster treatment?
The issues with private insurance overlapping with public insurance involves things like free riders, self selection and private insurance collecting premiums but then shifting costs back onto the public system when the customers start to cost money.

You see to be confusing insurance providers with multi-tiered care, which is in itself a complex issue. Paying for “faster service” may not change wait times at all, it may just be making someone else wait longer even if they have the greater need.
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Old 12th June 2019, 11:56 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
I don’t understand what are saying. Provinces can create a publicity funded MRI clinic any time they want...
Yes they can. But if its not the government's priority to create a new MRI clinic (or to open up more hospital space, or whatever) then people in that province are stuck with whatever the government has decided to fund.

If its not enough to cover the demand and you can't convince the MP that it should be priority? Too bad, so sad. You're screwed. Someone in the government made a decision, it wasn't you, but it affects your health.

And you can't decide "I'll build and license my own MRI machine for anyone who is in severe pain and is willing to pay an extra fee" because that would go against the rules.

Quote:
and there are MRI services available both from private clinics and non-profit clinics as well.
Even if they are private or non-profit clinics, fees are still paid for by the government (at least in most cases... yes there are exceptions, as another poster pointed out with B.C.) but those ARE exceptions. And if you can't charge extra (over above the fee schedule), you may not find it economical to open up a private clinic.

Quote:
Quote:
What, issues like getting faster treatment?
The issues with private insurance overlapping with public insurance involves things like free riders, self selection and private insurance collecting premiums but then shifting costs back onto the public system when the customers start to cost money.
Yet places like the U.K. generally score better than Canada in health care rankings, yet have roughly the same cost, and allow private insurance. Strange... how come all your 'issues' don't seem to be affecting them?

Quote:
You see to be confusing insurance providers with multi-tiered care, which is in itself a complex issue. Paying for “faster service” may not change wait times at all, it may just be making someone else wait longer even if they have the greater need.
Actually there are several benefits to multi-tiered care with regards to wait times:
- The extra money can help bring in additional resources into the system
- Unused capacity in the private system can sometimes be utilized by the public system, subject to availability
- It provides a clearer indication of priorities for the public and patients
- A private system can respond faster (compared to the government, were decisions often have to go through lengthy political debates, federal budgetary concerns, etc.)

In the last set of rankings by the Commonwealth fund (a group pushing for universal health care in the U.S.):
- the united states ranked last out of 11 (no big surprise there)
- Canada (with its single payer system) ranked 9th. And we also feel behind the U.S. in at least one measure
- The U.K. ranks #1
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/cha...mance-rankings
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Old 12th June 2019, 12:08 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
We can now say skeptics are more delusional than young earth creationists. At least creationists don't understand what the world was like thousands years ago. Skeptics, on the other hand, don't understand the world how it exists now.
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:08 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
It was not my intent to be offensive.
Yes it was.

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Which I managed to do, whether you'll admit it or not.
No you didn't

Last edited by Baylor; 12th June 2019 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:11 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
That's literally what I said, yet you twist it into some odd comment about demographics of a TAM meeting.

Try staying on topic, bro.

Oh, and I'll add: The demographic make up of a TAM meeting is not under any individual attendee's control, so by what "logic" do you conclude this makes that attendee into "racist trash"?

Of course, you then deflect to how you're not offended by what I say....Not even bothering to try defend your indefensible position after I've pointed out how wrong you are, huh? LOL!
Posting style is nothing new we've seen this a million times. Just another boomer bitchfit.
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:39 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Yes it was.



No you didn't
LOL! Believe whatever you want to believe.
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Old 12th June 2019, 03:40 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Posting style is nothing new we've seen this a million times. Just another boomer bitchfit.
...and yet you still can't respond to what I've brought up. Deflection. Deflection. Deflection.

Oh, and I'm not a boomer. Yet another assumption you make and are wrong about.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:01 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
LOL! Believe whatever you want to believe.
Very boomer of you.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:06 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Having gotten to know people of Europe through my time on the Internet, I can honestly say I'm very happy they're not breeding.
There's part of your problem. How does one get to "know" people through the internet? How do you know if you're not seeing mostly a particular subset of a society? Or not getting a slanted view through selective engagement?

Get out into the real world. Or at least expand your intellectual horizons. Don't be an isolationist shut-in, carrying on like the prototypical "ugly American" chanting, "America, ****** yeah!"
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:06 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Cultural diversity is lower in these countries because they are less prone to racism which builds artificial walls between segments of their population. Without racist walls segregating the population into subgroups, culture within the country evolves homogeneously and the result is lower diversity and less conflict.

IOW all you are telling us is “interracial” conflict and mistrust which limits countries ability to function as one society is directly correlated to how racist a country is, which should not be a startling revelation.
That was the genetic fractionalization index, not cultural diversity. And those countries have cultural walls too. No matter how much childless Europeans open their arms to immigrants, immigrants want nothing to do with childless Europeans.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:08 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
There's part of your problem. How does one get to "know" people through the internet? How do you know if you're not seeing mostly a particular subset of a society? Or not getting a slanted view through selective engagement?

Get out into the real world. Or at least expand your intellectual horizons. Don't be an isolationist shut-in, carrying on like the prototypical "ugly American" chanting, "America, ****** yeah!"
Yet I haven't disclosed my other experiences, nor have I ever chanted what you're claiming I did.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:11 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Pointing out that your "logic" is faulty when you accuse those attending TAM as being "racist trash" is a bit more than "Internet acronyms".
!
They are racist trash because even in their free time they choose to be around other white people. 90's Internet acronyms or quotation marks don't disprove that.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:12 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post

Oh, and how could I ever forget the fact that I pointed out your ignorance when you told us how you judge an entire continent of people based on Internet interactions?

That was probably my favorite example of your inanity. LOL!
That really was not worth the edit.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:12 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Yet I haven't disclosed my other experiences, nor have I ever chanted what you're claiming I did.
Ah, but it's absolutely telling that this is the one you chose to share with and base your advertised conclusion on:

Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Having gotten to know people of Europe through my time on the Internet, I can honestly say I'm very happy they're not breeding.
Looks like you're beginning to regret posting something so stupid. Hee Hee!
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:13 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
They are racist trash because even in their free time they choose to be around other white people. 90's Internet acronyms or quotation marks don't disprove that.
They "chose" who else will attend???

Fascinating. LOL!

Keep digging that hole, brother!
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:13 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Ah, but it's absolutely telling that this is the one you chose to share with and base your advertised conclusion on:


Looks like you're beginning to regret posting something so stupid. Hee Hee!
Yawn
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:14 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
That really was not worth the edit.
And yet you deemed it worthy of a response. Make up your mind.

An empty response, mind you. Maybe one day you'll begin an actual discussion of the topic. LOL!
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:14 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
They "chose" who else will attend???

Fascinating. LOL!

Keep digging that hole, brother!
They are white people choosing to be around other white people.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:17 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
They are white people choosing to be around other white people.
No, they are white people choosing to attend the TAM. Who else attends is not part of their choice.

Try thinking about this for a change. It's not difficult, I promise!
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:18 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
No, they are white people choosing to attend the TAM. Who else attends is not part of their choice.

Try thinking about this for a change. It's not difficult, I promise!
They are white people who want to be with other whites. That's racist trash.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:20 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Given the blinders you have on, I'm sure you've only seen what you wanted to see. Also, I'm sure the feeling is mutual. Please don't breed.
I just realized the upside of incels - they're going to have a hard time making white babies. Except there are apparently many Russian hotties anxious to meet them.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:22 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
They are white people who want to be with other whites. That's racist trash.
Oh, so you can't let go of your erroneous assumption (their desire to attend a meeting, which is completely independent of the ethnic diversity of others at the meeting), even when I point it out to you.

That's the very definition of being indoctrinated.

I wouldn't even bother responding to such ignorance were it not for the fact that I am both amused and fascinated by it.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:25 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Oh, so you can't let go of your erroneous assumption (their desire to attend a meeting, which is completely independent of the ethnic diversity of others at the meeting), even when I point it out to you.

That's the very definition of being indoctrinated.

I wouldn't even bother responding to such ignorance were it not for the fact that I am both amused and fascinated by it.
You can't grasp the fact that skeptic meetings are overwhelmingly white and that in itself is form of white supremacy.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:31 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You can't grasp the fact that skeptic meetings are overwhelmingly white and that in itself is form of white supremacy.
Repeat it 50 more times and it will still be wrong. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what racism and white supremacy even is:

Engineering a meeting so that it will be mostly white is racist.

Having a meeting that for various correlated reasons (of which I can merely speculate: Differing cultural interests and having the financial means to travel are two that occur immediately) winds up overwhelmingly white is......well, it's simply having a meeting. It's not racist.

Try reading a dictionary or something. That's all the help I have to offer you.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:32 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You can't grasp the fact that skeptic meetings are overwhelmingly white and that in itself is form of white supremacy.
Oh, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that the meetings are overwhelmingly white.

It's your conclusion that's laughably wrong.

Just wanted to spell that out since you're having so much trouble with this.

Good Luck!
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:34 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Actual professional health care wonks call S Korean health care "single-payer."
I wonder if this is a confounding factor:

People have the wrong idea about the 3 most popular procedures in South Korea, the plastic surgery capital of the world

Technically, that's health care, so some of the private spending could be on uncovered procedures.

A friend of mine (American) was hospitalized in Korea for something (this would have been in the late '80s/early '90s) and they didn't provide food. Everyone supposedly made their own arrangements for meals. He would have had crappy insurance, if any, having been lured to teach English by an unscrupulous school.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:35 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Repeat it 50 more times and it will still be wrong. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what racism and white supremacy even is:

Engineering a meeting so that it will be mostly white is racist.

Having a meeting that for various correlated reasons (of which I can merely speculate: Differing cultural interests and having the financial means to travel are two that occur immediately) winds up overwhelmingly white is......well, it's simply having a meeting. It's not racist.

Try reading a dictionary or something. That's all the help I have to offer you.
You are defending white supremacy. White people who choose to be around other white people is white supremacy. There are plenty of people of color who live around South Point. No white (supremacist) person reached out to them and offered them to attend to make the meeting more diverse. It's because skeptics prefer the meeting to be white.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:43 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Oh, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that the meetings are overwhelmingly white.

It's your conclusion that's laughably wrong.

Just wanted to spell that out since you're having so much trouble with this.

Good Luck!
Skeptic meetings are white. Not by accident but by design. There was zero attempt to make it more diverse. Just because you are (seemingly) unaware of the tactics white supremacists use to carve out white spaces doesn't mean they don't do it. You are (seemingly) aware that you are defending these white supremacists tactics.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:49 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Skeptic meetings are white. Not by accident but by design. There was zero attempt to make it more diverse. Just because you are (seemingly) unaware of the tactics white supremacists use to carve out white spaces doesn't mean they don't do it. You are (seemingly) aware that you are defending these white supremacists tactics.
This is an incorrect statement. All of it. Amusing and sad at the same time. Especially as you outed yourself as a racist bigot some time ago (white childess Europeans). You seem to be projecting.
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Old 12th June 2019, 05:25 PM   #275
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The idea that a group/gathering/whatever is 'racist' just due to it's demographics is laughable.

I belong to a couple clubs and organizations that appear to be purely or overwhelmingly white. If it is to be believed by un-skeptical people, that would mean that they are 'white supremacist' clubs. And nothing is farther from the truth.

Let us compare two cities: Spokane, Wa and Seattle, Wa.

As we can see, Spokane has a much, much higher percentage of whites over Seattle. Thanks to a certain poster, we can know that Spokane is a hotbed of White Supremacy!
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:17 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
They are white people choosing to be around other white people.
It is a bit of a stretch to suggest that it is the whiteness of those other people that powers the choice. Do you have any actual evidence that these white people would not choose to associate with others who share their interests if they were not white?

Associating with people is not, by itself, a racist act. Avoiding association with people is.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:15 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
However bad you think it is, it cannot possibly be worse than what has actually happened since 2016.
Yes, it could be if Bernie Sanders types are even in control of the White House. Trump is better than Hillary Clinton too.
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Old 12th June 2019, 11:15 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Yes, it could be if Bernie Sanders types are even in control of the White House. Trump is better than Hillary Clinton too.
Better how? And don't get me wrong, I thought HRC was the wrong candidate for the Dems at the wrong time but she was still immeasurably a better pick for President than Trump in terms of policies, experience, intelligence and being articulate.
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Old 13th June 2019, 08:51 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Yes it was.



No you didn't
I forgot the level of rational discussion in this sub-forum
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Old 13th June 2019, 09:19 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Skeptic meetings are white. Not by accident but by design. There was zero attempt to make it more diverse. Just because you are (seemingly) unaware of the tactics white supremacists use to carve out white spaces doesn't mean they don't do it. You are (seemingly) aware that you are defending these white supremacists tactics.
So what is your evidence that Skeptic meetings are racist meetings?
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