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Old Today, 03:52 AM   #3001
Jack by the hedge
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I assumed the diving platform was underwater. If it was literally brought out of the water, it doesn't change the IMPORTANT fact, it was thrown back onto the seabed (or so claims Stenström) . It was never made available for examination. It was enough that he just looked at it and claims he measured it but I suspect it was measured 'by eye' as I doubt he had a tape measure hanging around his neck.
So you're just making crap up and casting baseless aspersions. You imagine divers operate from some sort of weird underwater platform just so you can pretend to yourself you weren't wrong and they didn't recover material to the surface. You want to spin a tale that the divers brought the bolt all the way up to the surface, just to glance at it, say "meh, about 78mm" and lob it overboard.

That's your smoking gun, is it? That fantasy?

PS Regarding your repeated "so claims Stenström", can you quote his actual words from a primary source rather than a CT site?

Last edited by Jack by the hedge; Today at 03:53 AM.
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Old Today, 03:55 AM   #3002
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The front 'luxury' cabins were occupied by a retired sea captain and his wife, the Voronin family, Captain Piht and various members of the Stockholm Police ST Department. Also in adjacent cabins were the chief engineer and chief medical officer. All presumed dead, after initially being listed as survivors, with only the Voronin family and an old sea captain as survivors. Divers were sent to retrieve various items from those cabins, including an attaché case from Piht's cabin, but had the name tag 'Voronin', so either he was sharing the same cabin - and this is common on these ferries - or the police mixed up Voronin's cabin with his. The fact they had to break down the door tells you they were looking for something specific, and although it was the Rockwater divers, it did not seem to be on their survey remit, but you can see all these side searches on the Rockwater tape.

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As the JAIC deals with none of this, it must be a police matter, who as you know, don't have a requirement to explain anything to the public.


Aside: and you thought Jutta Rabe's character in Baltic Storm with an attaché case strapped to his wrist was a corny bad B-list spy movie plot, but actually, it is based on fact.

Your analysis of this matter is so far off base it's laughable.

You're claiming the divers were "sent to retrieve certain items from those cabins, including an attaché case.....". But the transcript simply doesn't necessarily support that interpretation - in fact it tends not to do so. The transcript suggests merely that they were looking round the cabin, were trying to identify which passengers were linked to which cabin, and came across an attaché case, which they decided to retrieve.

And where does this crap about the attaché case being "strapped to (someone's) wrist" come from? Your credibility is less than zero at this point.
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Old Today, 04:17 AM   #3003
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
But you claimed that nuclear waste dissolved the hinges. Osmium is not nuclear waste. It is a rare earth element. I guess I can add chemist to my list of doctorates not held.

Besides, Osmium is not going to dissolve any hinges. You are simply chucking it in in the hopes nobody heard of it before. A forlorn hope. Even if we had not, a quick google reveals the abject ignorance.

In any event, Osmium is the last metal in the Lathanide series. It is a rare earth element. It has no known reactive properties.. Not least melting a ship via bow doors.

I have no idea why you chucked that in. Go ahead, tell us all how Osmium melted the bow doors via fusion reaction or whatever the next mad claim is. Because we know that is not possible.
Heh, did you think Osmium was going to leap out of a lorry singing, 'I'll be your long-haired lover from Liverpool'...?


I am going now.

(Sorry about the ear worm.)
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Old Today, 04:19 AM   #3004
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
How exactly do you know this?

Can you quote us transcript, or link us to a recording, of Dave the diver replying to instructions which we do not hear?
That is the standard protocol.
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Old Today, 04:20 AM   #3005
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why would you think a diving support ship tasked with the recovery and inspection of specific parts wouldn't have the facilities or personnel capable of inspecting and measuring the items recovered?

Why do you think only one man was involved?
Stenström is shorthand for the whole team.
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Old Today, 04:24 AM   #3006
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is the standard protocol.

UHMMMMMMM what's that now?!

What is it precisely that you're claiming to be "standard protocol"?
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Old Today, 04:27 AM   #3007
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is the standard protocol.
Is that from your extensive knowledge of diving protocol which earlier brought us underwater diving platforms?

I'll take it as a "No, I can't give you any evidence whatsoever there was another controller talking in the diver's other ear, and I'm not even going to link to the source which gave me the idea".
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Old Today, 04:28 AM   #3008
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Well you recently used him as one, linking to his website for information on something. So do you consider him to be a credible source? (This is Heiwa, in case you forgot)
If he is giving straightforward factual information and as based on his naval architecture qualification it's fine. Interpretations of who was behind the sinking is more to do with subjectivity.

Take football, for example, we can all agree that someone like, say, Ian Wright, is extremely knowledgeable about football and we can use him as a source but that doesn't mean we necessarily support Arsenal FC, and that bit we can disregard - or agree - as that is borne of subjective opinion.
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Old Today, 04:30 AM   #3009
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
So you're just making crap up and casting baseless aspersions. You imagine divers operate from some sort of weird underwater platform just so you can pretend to yourself you weren't wrong and they didn't recover material to the surface. You want to spin a tale that the divers brought the bolt all the way up to the surface, just to glance at it, say "meh, about 78mm" and lob it overboard.

That's your smoking gun, is it? That fantasy?

PS Regarding your repeated "so claims Stenström", can you quote his actual words from a primary source rather than a CT site?
I have no idea whether or not the thing was brought up to the surface. What I do know is that it was never brought back to land to be examined. That is the salient point. Who cares if Stenström placed it on some sundry boat, leant back or had a cup of tea. What is important is that it was lobbed back onto the seabed.
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Old Today, 04:33 AM   #3010
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Stenström is shorthand for the whole team.
Oh, really? So when you said;

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
... it was examined by Stenstrom at the diving site [...] IOW only one person examined the bolt.
... you actually meant "the whole team" examined the bolt.
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Old Today, 04:33 AM   #3011
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
UHMMMMMMM what's that now?!

What is it precisely that you're claiming to be "standard protocol"?
Having one earpiece for one set of instructions and the other for another - enabling two people to issue orders or comments, from their remote positions.
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Old Today, 04:35 AM   #3012
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Oh, really? So when you said;



... you actually meant "the whole team" examined the bolt.
Either himself or someone on the team which he headed.
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Old Today, 04:37 AM   #3013
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I have no idea whether or not the thing was brought up to the surface.
More than one source says it was, both already quoted by you, so claiming not to know is hilariously inconsistent compared with the stuff you insist is true on much flimsier grounds.

Quote:
What I do know is that it was never brought back to land to be examined. That is the salient point. Who cares if Stenström placed it on some sundry boat, leant back or had a cup of tea. What is important is that it was lobbed back onto the seabed.
Perhaps you would like to explain to us what exactly is salient about that point. What further examination would you propose giving the bolt if you had it in your hand right now?
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Old Today, 04:39 AM   #3014
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If he is giving straightforward factual information and as based on his naval architecture qualification it's fine. Interpretations of who was behind the sinking is more to do with subjectivity.

Take football, for example, we can all agree that someone like, say, Ian Wright, is extremely knowledgeable about football and we can use him as a source but that doesn't mean we necessarily support Arsenal FC, and that bit we can disregard - or agree - as that is borne of subjective opinion.
But what if Ian Wright, in his analysis on MOTD started talking about how teams had 13 players, or that the goalkeeper could carry the ball from his penalty area to the opposition one? Or that a goal counted as 5 points and hitting the bar counted as one? Would we still count him as a reliable source on football?
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Old Today, 04:40 AM   #3015
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I never, ever disputed that the bolt was eventually thrown back into the sea. The nearest I ever came to saying anything like that is to point out that one of the sources you quoted says the bolt was left on the dive support vessel rather than helicoptered away.

What I dispute is your baseless claim that it was at best cursorily examined and your later frankly bizarre claim that it was not brought to the surface to be examined.
We don't know that it was thrown back in to the sea. Vixen's own source says it was left on the ship.
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