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Old 26th November 2021, 06:08 PM   #81
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No grounding of the F35. I think they know that happened already.
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Old 26th November 2021, 07:17 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
No grounding of the F35. I think they know that happened already.
I haven't followed the story .. what are the leading contenders?
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Old 26th November 2021, 09:14 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I'll wait for the official investigation and report. (For reasons which I've already set out.)
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
(And I note that the original report* is in The Sun. Hardly a bastion of responsible/scrupulous journalism. So yeah, I'll wait.
Regardless of the source, there's a bit of a believability problem with the contents of that story, too. It says the pilot tried to abort but "ran out of runway", meaning the plane would go off the edge of the ship on momentum alone anyway. That means the pilot detected the problem after starting to move forward. But the way that would have worked, with rain covers as the cause, would be that they restricted airflow into the engine and thus suppressed thrust, and that's something that would have been detected while the plane was sitting still, running its engine up before attempting to take off. Are we really to think they they not only left the covers on, but also either didn't run up the engine before going, or did it but didn't pay attention to its results?
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Old 27th November 2021, 04:32 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Regardless of the source, there's a bit of a believability problem with the contents of that story, too. It says the pilot tried to abort but "ran out of runway", meaning the plane would go off the edge of the ship on momentum alone anyway. That means the pilot detected the problem after starting to move forward. But the way that would have worked, with rain covers as the cause, would be that they restricted airflow into the engine and thus suppressed thrust, and that's something that would have been detected while the plane was sitting still, running its engine up before attempting to take off. Are we really to think they they not only left the covers on, but also either didn't run up the engine before going, or did it but didn't pay attention to its results?

Exactly.

As the engine spooled up prior to the STO manoeuvre, the flight computer would have noticed that the thrust and EPR were significantly different from their expected values. At the very least, it would have generated an immediate warning to the pilot well before any attempt was made to get airborne. At most, it would have auto-aborted any attempt at lift-off altogether.

Certain sections of the media abhor a vacuum of information/evolution of a story, and as a result will be rather..... over-keen to fill that void with something, anything. And the Sun article may well be nothing more than this phenomenon in action.
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Old 27th November 2021, 07:12 AM   #85
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News update:

Quote:
Earlier, media reports had mentioned how the U.K. Ministry of Defence approached the U.S. for assistance since it has salvage equipment located in Spain, closest to the scene of the incident.

The report, quoting unnamed sources, said the U.K. hopes that the Towed Pinger Locator 25 (TPL-25) owned by the U.S. can help trace the jet's emergency beacon. The jet can then be brought to the surface using a combination of remote-controlled undersea vehicles and inflatable bags.

After recovery, the F-35B will likely be loaded onboard a salvage vessel and brought to the shore, perhaps to Cyprus, which houses a major RAF airbase.

Meanwhile, there are reports that Italy is also assisting with the mission. Two days ago, an Italian F35 jet made a vertical landing on HMS Queen Elizabeth. This is also the first time that three nations have flown jets from the same aircraft carrier.
IBT
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Old 27th November 2021, 07:24 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
News update:

IBT

You're really trawling the internet for stories about this, aren't you?

In any case, the pure-clickbait second half of the headline - "...Amid Worries Russia May Snatch It" is 1) total bollocks and 2) not in any way whatsoever supported by anything within the article itself (probably because.... it's total bollocks). On the contrary, the article actually quotes a hugely reliable source saying explicitly that they've got no concerns whatsoever on this front.


You really ought to read these sorts of articles more carefully.
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Old 27th November 2021, 07:27 AM   #87
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And the addition of the US salvage vessel to the recovery operation is utterly un-newsworthy: it's nothing more (or less) than a combination of logistics, the relative locations of suitable recovery vessels, the depth of the wreckage and the nature of the item to be recovered (ie the aircraft).
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Old 27th November 2021, 09:19 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
You're really trawling the internet for stories about this, aren't you?

In any case, the pure-clickbait second half of the headline - "...Amid Worries Russia May Snatch It" is 1) total bollocks and 2) not in any way whatsoever supported by anything within the article itself (probably because.... it's total bollocks). On the contrary, the article actually quotes a hugely reliable source saying explicitly that they've got no concerns whatsoever on this front.


You really ought to read these sorts of articles more carefully.
I'd be more concerned about SPECTER snatching it out from under their very noses.
They're pretty well known for their underwater operations, you know.
And I think we can clearly rest assured that MI-6 and the CIA have their best people on the job, even now.
As long as the double oh fellow doesn't fall into bed with the beautiful Italian agent, who is in fact, working for SPECTER...

I'm sorry, is this a real thing that's going on right now?
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Old 27th November 2021, 10:48 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I'd be more concerned about SPECTER snatching it out from under their very noses.
They're pretty well known for their underwater operations, you know.
And I think we can clearly rest assured that MI-6 and the CIA have their best people on the job, even now.
As long as the double oh fellow doesn't fall into bed with the beautiful Italian agent, who is in fact, working for SPECTER...

I'm sorry, is this a real thing that's going on right now?
They'll get the jet back but then discover Spectre has nicked the Automatic Targeting Attack Communicator as usual and they'll demand one million dollars for its return.
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Old 27th November 2021, 01:41 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
They'll get the jet back but then discover Spectre has nicked the Automatic Targeting Attack Communicator as usual and they'll demand one million dollars for its return.

I expect a tightly-choreographed battle between opposing groups of scuba divers over and around the wreck of the aircraft, backed by an insistent orchestral score. And I expect the SPECTRE frogmen to be wearing wetsuits of a totally different colour to those of our brave allied frogmen, so that everyone can immediately tell the goodies from the baddies.
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Old 27th November 2021, 01:46 PM   #91
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* paging Karl Stromberg *
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Old 27th November 2021, 01:59 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I expect a tightly-choreographed battle between opposing groups of scuba divers over and around the wreck of the aircraft, backed by an insistent orchestral score. And I expect the SPECTRE frogmen to be wearing wetsuits of a totally different colour to those of our brave allied frogmen, so that everyone can immediately tell the goodies from the baddies.
With the hero wearing a different colour to the others of course.
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Old 27th November 2021, 05:23 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I expect a tightly-choreographed battle between opposing groups of scuba divers over and around the wreck of the aircraft, backed by an insistent orchestral score. And I expect the SPECTRE frogmen to be wearing wetsuits of a totally different colour to those of our brave allied frogmen, so that everyone can immediately tell the goodies from the baddies.
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
With the hero wearing a different colour to the others of course.
And disco music. No scuba battles allowed without disco music.
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Old 29th November 2021, 03:28 PM   #94
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Video: Moment British F35 stealth jet crashed into Mediterranean

Watch it here, complete with plastic cover after it.


https://news.sky.com/video/video-mom...anean-12482614

SKY NEWS
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Old 29th November 2021, 03:50 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Video: Moment British F35 stealth jet crashed into Mediterranean

Watch it here, complete with plastic cover after it.


https://news.sky.com/video/video-mom...anean-12482614

SKY NEWS

If this actually was down the failure to remove an engine cover, then

1) the pilot would/should have noticed this even before he started rolling, on account of improper thrust and EPR readings - so it's hard to understand how/why he ever even took his foot off the wheel brakes in that scenario. And in addition, the aircraft's sophisticated monitoring systems would have spotted the problem and would have sounded alarms.

2) The suggestion is that the cover in question was an intake cover (an exhaust cover would have quickly blown clean off with the power of the exhaust in any case), and that this intake cover was sucked into the engine. And then there's also alleged sightings of this intake cover falling out of the sky and floating around on the ocean surface.

But a plastic intake cover that had been sucked into an engine working at very high thrust.... would have been chewed up (and melted, had it gone through the combustion chamber) very significantly - and any of it that even made it out through the exhaust would have been shredded up. It's a functional impossibility that a plastic intake cover sucked into/through a modern turbofan jet engine would simply pass through it essentially undamaged.

(Not to mention the fact that had this cover indeed been ingested by the engine had passed through the fan channel (rather than the combustion route), and had come out through the exhaust in more-or-less one intact piece.... this would imply that it hadn't hindered the engine's performance to any significant degree. Go figure.)
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Old 29th November 2021, 04:03 PM   #96
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It's more than likely part of the ejector seat mechanism.
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Old 29th November 2021, 04:41 PM   #97
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It's hard to believe it would be a "remove before flying" item that caused this. Not unless both pilot and crew were ignoring basic checklist items. Which is hard to believe.
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Old 29th November 2021, 04:43 PM   #98
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I'm liking the Buccaneer portion of this thread more than the lost F35 portion, if I'm honest.
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Old 29th November 2021, 04:55 PM   #99
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A couple of light colored objects can be seen after the ejection. I expect they are associated with the ejection. Inlet covers would be red.
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Old 29th November 2021, 05:10 PM   #100
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Wait... some things are seen fluttering down after the plane's already gone, meaning they were above the plane, and somebody's claiming that would be the "remove before flight" covers?... because of course we all know those would have been launched upward from the plane, not either stayed with it or fallen off...?

That has to be a leg-pull. Nobody capable of using a language could possibly be that stupid.
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Old 29th November 2021, 08:58 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Side note: I bet neither the Daily Mail nor Vixen knows who HMS Queen Elizabeth is named for, and why (without Googling it, obviously).......
Should have named it Warspite*.


*And yes, I know they're using that name for a new SSBN.
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Old Yesterday, 01:09 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Wait... some things are seen fluttering down after the plane's already gone, meaning they were above the plane, and somebody's claiming that would be the "remove before flight" covers?... because of course we all know those would have been launched upward from the plane, not either stayed with it or fallen off...?

That has to be a leg-pull. Nobody capable of using a language could possibly be that stupid.
It is an interesting video, as you can visibly see the jet slowing down, as it tries to climb the ramp.
Whatever it was, that was the cause, there was a serious lack of engine power/thrust at that particular moment.
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Old Yesterday, 01:17 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Side note: I bet neither the Daily Mail nor Vixen knows who HMS Queen Elizabeth is named for, and why (without Googling it, obviously).......
The winner of the second series of Ru Paul's Drag Rage UK ?


edited to add.....

Have Googled the answer - how interesting.

Last edited by The Don; Yesterday at 01:19 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 01:35 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The winner of the second series of Ru Paul's Drag Rage UK ?


edited to add.....

Have Googled the answer - how interesting.
It carries the badge of the last HMS Queen Elizabeth which was named for Elizabeth the 1st so it was obvious really.
If it was named after a different queen it would be carrying a different badge and wouldn't be entitled to bear any of the honours of the previous ship.
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Old Yesterday, 04:35 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
* paging Karl Stromberg *
Or the villian in "For Your Eyes Only"....
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Old Yesterday, 05:10 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Or the villian in "For Your Eyes Only"....
Ummm...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Stromberg
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Old Yesterday, 08:37 PM   #107
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So far it appears the aircraft is not so much "up for grabs" as "down for crabs."
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Old Today, 12:08 AM   #108
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Jet Found

Latest update: the F-35 jet that ejected into the sea off the runway has been found.

Quote:
The F-35 fighter jet that plunged into the sea has been found - but a cautious approach will be taken over its recovery as Russia is likely to be watching, a top security adviser has revealed.

<snip>

Sir Stephen Lovegrove, National Security Adviser, was asked for an update on the recovery operation by the Commons Defence Committee on Tuesday.

He said: "The pilot was recovered safely and is still undergoing medical checks. We are hopeful that he will be absolutely fine. It would be premature of me to comment on the reasons for the accident.

"The recovery of the flight data recorder and the wreckage are really vital for an accurate investigation to determine the causes of the crash. Clearly the swift recovery of the aircraft is what we would like to do and we are working closely with allies on the mechanics of that. We haven't got the plane up yet.

"We are aware of Russian undersea capabilities, and you are quite right to identify them as being state of the art.

"The kinds of precautions and operations that we are undertaking at the moment are designed at least in part to ensure that the technology of the F-35 remains as confidential as you would like it to be.

"Those security aspects are very much at the top of our mind.

"My understanding is that the experts know where the aircraft is."
DAILY TELEGRAPH


Some might ask why it took so long to locate the aeroplane, and the answer is that this type of jet carries on 'flying' even once in the water and is believed to have travelled as far as up to four miles, with some of the water in the area been particularly deep. So, a few Royal Navy ships have been patrolling the identified likely region to deter other 'interested parties'.

In addition, the plane's satellite location beacon has deliberately not been activated, to avoid attracting attention to it from rival nations.


Graphics ibid.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1637345588055.jpg (25.9 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg 1637345551461.jpg (35.1 KB, 0 views)
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Old Today, 04:11 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Latest update: the F-35 jet that ejected into the sea off the runway has been found.

DAILY TELEGRAPH


Some might ask why it took so long to locate the aeroplane, and the answer is that this type of jet carries on 'flying' even once in the water and is believed to have travelled as far as up to four miles, with some of the water in the area been particularly deep. So, a few Royal Navy ships have been patrolling the identified likely region to deter other 'interested parties'.

In addition, the plane's satellite location beacon has deliberately not been activated, to avoid attracting attention to it from rival nations.


Graphics ibid.

Nothing in that article mentions anything at all about how long it took to locate the aircraft. Where have you got that from? An "assumption" on your part?

All it says is that the aircraft hasn't been recovered yet. Which is a totally separate matter.

And it's not just "this type of jet" which will move horizontally under water LOL. Every single fixed-wing aircraft - even a glider - will do the same. It's to do with fluid dynamics and the Bernoulli effect. But you wouldn't know about any of that of course, would you?
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Old Today, 04:23 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
... And it's not just "this type of jet" which will move horizontally under water LOL. Every single fixed-wing aircraft - even a glider - will do the same.
Is that necessarily true of new generation fighters though? I thought newer* designs tended to be unstable, which is a side effect of making them highly manoeuvrable but means relying on fly by wire computer systems to help keep the aircraft under control. So I could well believe that such types would not glide for miles underwater but rather tumble and sink closer to where they entered the water.

*But I may be a decade or two out of date on what's "new".
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Old Today, 04:41 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Nothing in that article mentions anything at all about how long it took to locate the aircraft. Where have you got that from? An "assumption" on your part?

All it says is that the aircraft hasn't been recovered yet. Which is a totally separate matter.

And it's not just "this type of jet" which will move horizontally under water LOL. Every single fixed-wing aircraft - even a glider - will do the same. It's to do with fluid dynamics and the Bernoulli effect. But you wouldn't know about any of that of course, would you?
From an earlier article:

Quote:
Why is there such a large search area?

The aircraft went down in around 1.24 miles of water so it is likely the search area on the sea bed will be a circle of about 4 miles diameter

A plane will ‘fly’ underwater in a similar way to being in air, so the jet would have travelled a significant distance after crashing.
TELEGRAPH


Because the plane never seemed to take off but just tumbled into the water, some people assumed that should be where it would be found.
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Old Today, 04:52 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
From an earlier article:

TELEGRAPH


Because the plane never seemed to take off but just tumbled into the water, some people assumed that should be where it would be found.

No. You stated that the "latest update" was that the aircraft had been found.

I pointed out that nothing in that article either stated or implied that the aircraft had only recently been found.

And you then replied to me with the above..... which again, says nothing at all about how long it actually took the allies to locate the aircraft.

I already told you I fully understand the way fixed-wing aircraft (not merely "this type of jet" LOL) plane horizontally through water.
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Old Today, 05:01 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Is that necessarily true of new generation fighters though? I thought newer* designs tended to be unstable, which is a side effect of making them highly manoeuvrable but means relying on fly by wire computer systems to help keep the aircraft under control. So I could well believe that such types would not glide for miles underwater but rather tumble and sink closer to where they entered the water.

*But I may be a decade or two out of date on what's "new".

Ah no, even stealth and/or fly-by-wire aircraft have wings which are still aerodynamically shaped so as to produce lift. And therefore even this sort of aircraft whose mass is pulling it down through a column of water will - owing to Bernoulli working in effect in the "opposite" direction* - pull the aircraft forward.

The issue with these sorts of aircraft is that they're inherently unstable, and must therefore rely on constant automated micro-adjustments of the control surfaces in order to maintain controlled flight in accordance with the pilot's inputs and wishes. These aircraft would still generate aerodynamic lift if the fine controls failed - it's just that the aircraft would be uncontrollable and unstable, and would ultimately hit the ground.

So one of these aircraft, when tipped into the ocean, will still generate a horizontal moment - it's just that this moment won't be either straight-line or predictable.


* Just as, for example, magnets plus rotational movement creates electricity (electricity generator), while electricity plus magnets creates rotational movement (electric motor).
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Old Today, 05:11 AM   #114
Jack by the hedge
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Well that was rather what I imagined; while a conventional aircraft might settle into a stable underwater glide and end up multiple miles away, these types might be more likely to tumble, if not quite like slow motion falling leaves then at least changing direction from time to time, and their "random walk" would leave them closer to the point of entry.
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