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Old 28th November 2021, 01:41 PM   #3801
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Oh certainly,ease and over perception is what got people hooked in the first place. However, were anyone actually prescribed an overdose amount that would have been prosecutable.

While the manufacturers bare a lot of the responsibility by pushing Oxycontin as safe. Then the doctors who should have known no opioid is (even semi-synthetic) entirely safe and didn't allow patients to make an informed choice. After that the street dealers feeding the frenzy and even throwing some fentanyl into the mix. Finally the patient, probably with the least direct knowledge of the pharmacology and dosing but with the most direct impact of action.
It's my understanding that there were a fair number of doctors who made a business of unnecessary prescriptions. Perhaps not overdose amounts, but scandalous over-prescribing nonetheless. There have also been reports of clinics that diverted prescription meds to the street. I can't remember what locations now, but I seem to read that there were ridiculously disproportionate prescriptions made in some specific places, quite obviously not legit. But at least some of what we know, though, is precisely because their illegal activity was caught. Reports of doctors selling prescriptions, and the like. But this is a minority of doctors, and terrible as the whole affair is, it is not about the validity of medicine or the proper practice of it, any more than the presence of rapists among the population makes all men rapists.
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Old 28th November 2021, 02:07 PM   #3802
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
It's my understanding that there were a fair number of doctors who made a business of unnecessary prescriptions. Perhaps not overdose amounts, but scandalous over-prescribing nonetheless.
Yep, my understanding as well, both the easy with which prescribing them and the over-prescribing, as I mentioned.

In some cases even helping the illicit resale of the extraneous amounts.


While addiction crisis raged, many surgeons overprescribed opioids, analysis shows
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Old 2nd December 2021, 06:11 PM   #3803
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Reports of doctors selling prescriptions, and the like. But this is a minority of doctors, and terrible as the whole affair is, it is not about the validity of medicine or the proper practice of it, any more than the presence of rapists among the population makes all men rapists.
It is a culture, they are taught at school to use pharmaceutic products. If the rape would be an accepted culture most man would do it.
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Old 2nd December 2021, 06:32 PM   #3804
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
It is a culture, they are taught at school to use pharmaceutic products. If the rape would be an accepted culture most man would do it.
Wow. That says a lot more than you think. Jesus.
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Old 2nd December 2021, 08:11 PM   #3805
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
It is a culture, they are taught at school to use pharmaceutic products. If the rape would be an accepted culture most man would do it.
Yikes. "Taught to use pharmaceutics," though it may be true, is absolutely, completely, utterly and obviously NOT THE SAME as "selling prescriptions," which is the illegal action I was addressing. If that is the level of your perception, it's no wonder the world confuses you so.

As to the second half, I disagree, for several reasons, some of which ought to be obvious even to those for whom the obvious is exotic. For one thing, more than half the people in the world are women, and though much to our detriment men hold unequal power, that only goes so far. And in addition, some men, even in a rotten culture, actually like women. But even if I were wrong, all you've said really is that if the world were different the world would be different. That's saying nothing at all. It isn't until it is.
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Old 3rd December 2021, 12:26 AM   #3806
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
It is a culture, they are taught at school to use pharmaceutic products. If the rape would be an accepted culture most man would do it.
Well, my kids are all growed up. They would deck anyone suggesting such nonsense.

Why are you suggesting such nonsense? I can only assume you lack experience of such.
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Old 3rd December 2021, 07:39 AM   #3807
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Well, my kids are all growed up. They would deck anyone suggesting such nonsense.

Why are you suggesting such nonsense? I can only assume you lack experience of such.
Given the thing in question one certainly hopes so, but wishful thinking is not off the table.
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Old 3rd December 2021, 10:18 AM   #3808
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I think Gaetan has just made an inadvertent confession to something he really doesn't need to be confessing.
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Old 4th December 2021, 06:41 AM   #3809
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Yikes. "Taught to use pharmaceutics," though it may be true, is absolutely, completely, utterly and obviously NOT THE SAME as "selling prescriptions,"
In practice it is the same thing
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Old 4th December 2021, 07:14 AM   #3810
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In practice it is the same thing
No it is not, as reality is what is "In practice", and the reality is Doctors do not sell anything but their services. One of their services is to prescribe medication(s) or suggest over the counter treatments. Whether you fill that prescription, get that over the counter treatment or not is entirely up to you.

Again, I routinely do not fill prescriptions for pain medication. Also I have a prescription for folic acid (vitamin B9) that I do fill but I don't take them all. The reason that needs to be a prescription is because of the dosage involved. It can lead to polycythemia (over production of red blood cells). I coordinate with my doctor on how and when I take them and blood test have demonstrated that my dosing recommendations (on this matter) are correct.
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Old 4th December 2021, 07:58 AM   #3811
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In practice it is the same thing
No, it is not. Prescribing a thing is not the same as selling it, and this would be the case even if you were right in your condemnation of the prescription. The system is set up exactly so that such ambiguity does not occur, and so that doctors will not profit from the medicines they prescribe, which is why incidents such as selling prescriptions for opiates makes the news: because it's illegal and unethical.

Once again, you scuttle your own argument with hyperbolic error. and chronic misunderstanding.
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Old 4th December 2021, 10:20 AM   #3812
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In practice it is the same thing
Please explain how it works. Let's say my doctor prescribes Ozempic. How does she get paid from Novo Nordisk? Do they send her a check, pay her cash money? Or does the money come from the Pharmacy? Or perhaps my insurance cuts her a check for prescribing anything?

Here is the problem, you deal with so many snake oil peddlers that you pay those charlatans directly because they sell what they prescribe. Real medicine doesn't work that way. My doctor doesn't get paid for what she makes me take, but for me staying (relatively) healthy and above ground.
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Old 4th December 2021, 10:37 AM   #3813
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The arguments here always remind me of my stepson when he was a kid. He picked up many political ideas with which I tend to agree, and many enmities with which I tend to agree, but in his immature way, he took it too far, characterizing his enemies as storm troopers, baby abusers, and so forth. Making accusations that can be easily and truthfully denied short-circuits an argument before it begins. Whatever good idea you might have had is a collateral casualty. It's a losing strategy. He was a kid. He grew up. Some do. Some, clearly, don't.
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Old 4th December 2021, 10:52 AM   #3814
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I sell that the world should free of money but i have no money for that. Selling a product or a service doesn't necessarily implies money on it.

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Old 4th December 2021, 12:29 PM   #3815
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I sell that the world should free of money but i have no money for that. Selling a product or a service doesn't necessarily implies money on it.
If I am parsing this correctly you are talking about advertising, advocating or promoting as being the use of the word 'sell' here.

That being the case then 'selling' and even 'buying' aren't inherently tied to an exchange of money in your use of lexicon. This obliterates your objection to Doctors prescribing medications as that objection was tied specifically to the use of money. Now you seem to claim that your use of the word 'sell' in that objection does not involve the use or exchange of money.

Further, even in your 'free' world people will still be 'selling' their labor for the goods (like food, medications and housing) and services they need. Just as they do today. However, those they 'sell' that labor to will have no responsibility to provide anything for them to actually 'buy' with said labor.


You don't 'sell' that the world should free of money, not even to yourself.
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Old 4th December 2021, 03:03 PM   #3816
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I sell that the world should free of money but i have no money for that. Selling a product or a service doesn't necessarily implies money on it.
Somewhere in that statement, along with the customary grammatical confusion, is a problem of making any sense at all, as it appears you are saying that making transactions for money does not use money. I suspect you are trying to say something else, but if so, I am afraid it has not yet happened.
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Old 5th December 2021, 05:12 PM   #3817
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Doctors are employees of pharmas, employes doesn't necessarily get a reward, they are paid by their clients or the store owners.
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Old 5th December 2021, 05:25 PM   #3818
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No they aren't. The Doctors are the employees of the hospitals, or alternatively in the UK the state or themselves.
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Old 5th December 2021, 09:30 PM   #3819
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Doctors are employees of pharmas, employes doesn't necessarily get a reward, they are paid by their clients or the store owners.
Nonsense. False.
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Old 5th December 2021, 10:19 PM   #3820
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
No they aren't. The Doctors are the employees of the hospitals, or alternatively in the UK the state or themselves.
Mostly, your GP in this neck of the woods is self employed. And damned good at what they do. Some decades ago, I suffered from actual clinical depression. When I talked to the doc, he did indeed suggest drugs. I suggested right back that I really did not want those. What was his response? He actually said "I am glad to hear that. Too many people seek refuge in a pill." He went on to explain how it is patients demand the drugs and are really junkies in fake clothing looking for the next hit. He then proceeded to hurl me at a therapist who got me out of whatever funk I was in. No drugs involved That therapist subsequently commended a therapist for my kid at the time (now 19)? Mine recommended his, As a result neither of us is on drugs ever. Nor in any sort of therapy either.

Gaetans claims are clearly a load as anyone with the remotest experience would know. Hell, since then I have operated as a therapist myself. I know what Gaetan is. It is oddly common.
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Old 5th December 2021, 11:20 PM   #3821
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In my recent experience physical therapists also generally try as hard as they can to avoid drugs - it's pretty much the point of physical therapy to find ways for people having physical problems to escape the need for drugs by fixing the problems. Physical therapy is one of the things doctors actually prescribe. They don't just say "you ought to go to so and so." Physical therapy is a prescription item (insured in many cases).

This is, of course, 100 percent contrary to the assertions of Gaetan. Even if at other times doctors prescribe drugs, when physical therapy is prescribed, it is entirely contrary. It is an anti-pharmaceutical action.
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Old 6th December 2021, 07:12 AM   #3822
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Doctors are employees of pharmas, employes doesn't necessarily get a reward, they are paid by their clients or the store owners.

Well, if "they are paid by their clients or the store owners" then they do "necessarily get a reward", said payment.


Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
No they aren't. The Doctors are the employees of the hospitals, or alternatively in the UK the state or themselves.
As noted by abaddon, they can have their own practices. Also they can band together and form a medical group to localize various services and share common resources. While some private practice doctors generally had admitting privileges at local hospitals that is outdated now.

Hospital Admitting Privileges: Do They Matter?

Heck, even my dentist is part of a dental group and has been for decades.


What Are the Different Types of Medical Practices?

You will find that depending on the type of practice a doctor can be an employee, a contractual partner or the owner/operator.
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Old 6th December 2021, 07:23 AM   #3823
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Mostly, your GP in this neck of the woods is self employed. And damned good at what they do. Some decades ago, I suffered from actual clinical depression. When I talked to the doc, he did indeed suggest drugs. I suggested right back that I really did not want those. What was his response? He actually said "I am glad to hear that. Too many people seek refuge in a pill." He went on to explain how it is patients demand the drugs and are really junkies in fake clothing looking for the next hit. He then proceeded to hurl me at a therapist who got me out of whatever funk I was in. No drugs involved That therapist subsequently commended a therapist for my kid at the time (now 19)? Mine recommended his, As a result neither of us is on drugs ever. Nor in any sort of therapy either.

Gaetans claims are clearly a load as anyone with the remotest experience would know. Hell, since then I have operated as a therapist myself. I know what Gaetan is. It is oddly common.
Exactly, while the doctor is the expert you are the one with the responsibility to make medical decisions. The doctrine is known as informed consent and you're the one that has to grant said consent. I've never had a medical professional that wasn't more than willing to work with me to obtain the type of treatment where I would grant such consent.

ETHICS; Informed Consent
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Old 6th December 2021, 07:37 AM   #3824
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
In my recent experience physical therapists also generally try as hard as they can to avoid drugs - it's pretty much the point of physical therapy to find ways for people having physical problems to escape the need for drugs by fixing the problems. Physical therapy is one of the things doctors actually prescribe. They don't just say "you ought to go to so and so." Physical therapy is a prescription item (insured in many cases).

This is, of course, 100 percent contrary to the assertions of Gaetan. Even if at other times doctors prescribe drugs, when physical therapy is prescribed, it is entirely contrary. It is an anti-pharmaceutical action.
Some years ago I fell off a ladder at work and fractured my right heel. I was on disability for 3 months. I took no pain medications and did my own physical therapy to be sure that I could return to work as soon as the covered period was over.

I also did most of the sheetrock compound sanding that was left after reinsulating all exterior walls before. I had a rolling stool that was under my right knee as a rolling peg leg. It kept me mobile around the house and prevented my right hip muscles from weakening.
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Old 6th December 2021, 09:23 AM   #3825
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I sell that the world should free of money but i have no money for that. Selling a product or a service doesn't necessarily implies money on it.
But you use the term selling to imply a profit motive, and thus further muddy the water. It's dishonest. So doctors "sell" prescriptions but don't profit from it. Your preferred "medical providers" on the other hand do sell FOR MONEY the crap they are "prescribing."

It's dishonest, and hypocritical.
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Old 6th December 2021, 09:58 AM   #3826
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
But you use the term selling to imply a profit motive, and thus further muddy the water. It's dishonest. So doctors "sell" prescriptions but don't profit from it. Your preferred "medical providers" on the other hand do sell FOR MONEY the crap they are "prescribing."

It's dishonest, and hypocritical.
In the circumstances that characterization might be needlessly polite, but...

all you have to do is redefine things. Money is not money except when it's money. Selling is not selling except when it is. Pharma is whatever I don't like. The worst doctor in the world is all doctors by insinuation. And voila! Truth comes up all green and juicy, like asparagus from a bed of manure.
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Old 6th December 2021, 02:29 PM   #3827
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
In the circumstances that characterization might be needlessly polite, but...

all you have to do is redefine things. Money is not money except when it's money. Selling is not selling except when it is. Pharma is whatever I don't like. The worst doctor in the world is all doctors by insinuation. And voila! Truth comes up all green and juicy, like asparagus from a bed of manure.
Well, I'm limited by the Members Agreement, but his history of redefining words and not telling us is one thing. But when he redefines them, doesn't mention them, only to imply the original meaning then comes out and say "no, I'm using them in a unique way and it's your fault for not catching my meaning" when he meant "selling" to imply money, is just dishonest.
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Old 6th December 2021, 03:05 PM   #3828
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Well, I'm limited by the Members Agreement, but his history of redefining words and not telling us is one thing. But when he redefines them, doesn't mention them, only to imply the original meaning then comes out and say "no, I'm using them in a unique way and it's your fault for not catching my meaning" when he meant "selling" to imply money, is just dishonest.
Well, yes, as I said, "dishonest" might be needlessly polite as long as, in accordance with rules, it refers to the action and not the person doing it. Though we can note when something quacks and waddles, we cannot necessarily call it a duck.
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Old 8th December 2021, 08:55 AM   #3829
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Well, yes, as I said, "dishonest" might be needlessly polite as long as, in accordance with rules, it refers to the action and not the person doing it. Though we can note when something quacks and waddles, we cannot necessarily call it a duck.
I think I was referring to his actions and not to the person. If I were to permit myself permission to play a doctor on the internet, I would say his private war against sleep aides is very telling. Lack of sleep can lead to all sorts of bad choices and the fact he fell into the grips of people selling him pseudo cures, that clearly aren't working, only compounds the problems.

If I permit myself to go a yard further, I would submit that his insomnia is causing other issues as well. His understanding of employment is clearly entry level, probably because his insomnia impacts his ability to advance. But he is under the grasp of some ********* peddler who is not helping him sleep and the circle is complete.

Just for a month, Gaetan, take the sleep medicine prescribed by someone with a MD in their title, and issues by someone working at a pharmacy. If it doesn't work, you can go back to the stuff that isn't working now. It's not going to kill you, pinky promise. Start in January, please. New Years resolution, for a month. If it works, and it will, go for February.
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Old 11th December 2021, 08:59 AM   #3830
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What do you say, i never took sleeping pills, it gives cancer. There is about 10 natural plants you can take to sleep without side effect.
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Old 11th December 2021, 12:33 PM   #3831
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What do you say, i never took sleeping pills, it gives cancer.
Prove that sleeping pills cause cancer. You can't.

And I have never taken sleeping pills because I simply have no need of them.

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
There is about 10 natural plants you can take to sleep without side effect.
Name them.
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Old 11th December 2021, 04:55 PM   #3832
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Prove that sleeping pills cause cancer. You can't.

And I have never taken sleeping pills because I simply have no need of them.

Name them.
That's something you can do yourself by typing few words in a research on internet.
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Old 11th December 2021, 07:56 PM   #3833
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So you can't back up your claim? Typical.
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Old 11th December 2021, 10:07 PM   #3834
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Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
So you can't back up your claim? Typical.
In the evening: valerian, eschscholtzia, chamomile, marjoram, hops, linden, lavender, poppy

In the morning: ginger, blackcurrant leaf, cinnamon, rosehip, cloves
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Old 11th December 2021, 11:31 PM   #3835
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That is, of course, making one claim but not backing it up.

A nice cup of herb tea in the evening is likely a good idea, but it hardly proves that sleeping pills cause cancer.

I do like a couple of the suggestions, hops and poppies. A nice India Pale Ale and a snort of opium and sweet dreams, baby. Just kidding. Ginger is better for you than ale, opium or sleeping pills, because it's not only good for you but tasty too. But it still doesn't prove that sleeping pills cause cancer.
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Old 12th December 2021, 12:39 AM   #3836
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In the evening: valerian, eschscholtzia, chamomile, marjoram, hops, linden, lavender, poppy

In the morning: ginger, blackcurrant leaf, cinnamon, rosehip, cloves
What fun.

valerian - side effect is...insomnia
eschscholtzia - heroin
chamomile - Causes miscarriages
marjoram - Inhibits blood clotting
hops - causes skin lesions and will kill your dog.
linden - causes heart damage
lavender - appears to have no effect
poppy- and you are back to heroin

"In the morning"? Why would you take a drug to make you sleepy in the morning?

ginger - possible heart damage, interacts with other drugs
blackcurrant leaf - Bunch of Vit C and that's it. Eat an orange.
cinnamon - No known medical application. Plenty of claims though.
rosehip - possibly may aid rheumatoid arthritis...maybe. nothing to do with sleeping.
cloves - OK that is just a stupid idea. I have used Clove oil in the past for toothache and it is really effective in that role. But it didn't send me to sleep.

So your list of "natural" sleep remedies either don't work or cause side effects right up to death. But death is natural, is it not? You must die in order to meet baby jebus, right?
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Old 12th December 2021, 08:20 AM   #3837
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What do you say, i never took sleeping pills, it gives cancer. There is about 10 natural plants you can take to sleep without side effect.

ETA: As far as I recall no direct causal link to cancer has ever been established. Only an association to an increased cancer risk. Also the one study you cited were risks associated with simply being prescribed sleeping pills not with actually taking any. So if you have ever even been just prescribed sleeping pills, then you already fall into that higher risk category. Again, do, please, try to remember that.

Anything that has effects has side effects. What is the cancer incident rate for people who habitually use those "10 natural plants"?

ETA: What are the cancer risks associated with using any or all of those "10 natural plants" compared to taking sleeping pills and not taking, or even being prescribed sleeping pills?
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Last edited by The Man; 12th December 2021 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 12th December 2021, 08:56 AM   #3838
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You can eat a carrot you'll find side effect but if you take sleeping pills it won't take long before you have a cancer. You can add these two plants: St. John's wort, passionflower

Last edited by Gaetan; 12th December 2021 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 12th December 2021, 09:37 AM   #3839
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You can eat a carrot you'll find side effect but if you take sleeping pills it won't take long before you have a cancer. You can add these two plants: St. John's wort, passionflower
How long? Numbers, please.

If you take any medications other than herbal nostrums, be careful with that St. John's wort, as its list of drug interactions is dauntingly long.
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Old 12th December 2021, 04:23 PM   #3840
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Provide the studies that show sleeping pills cause cancer. Don't tell us to look, you've made the claim you back it up. That's how it works in the real world Gaetan.
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