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Old 10th January 2022, 08:22 AM   #1
Cainkane1
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Time for a man to hit a woman. Is it ever justified?

I unfortunantly kneed a girl in high school. I came close to hitting my now ex wife but I did not. When I was a kid in High school a older girl wanted my place in line waiting for the school bus to take us home and I kneed her causing a Charley Horse. I really hurt her and she was limping around trying to knock the crap out of me.

I was at a bar in a bad part of Atlanta Ga and a gay woman of size was drunk and while my band was playing this gay lady was trying to hit on a band members wife trying to hold her hand and kiss her. Her husband went to his wife's rescue and shoved the Gay woman down. The gay woman being real intoxicated challenged my co worker to a fight and they went outside and he tore her head off. Not literally but she was given a pretty good beat down.

While laying on the parking lot the gay woman looked up and said "your pretty tough with women aren't you? My band member said "Oh your a lady out here but you were a man in there"?

Were these two incidents justified? I didn't hit my now ex wife but I can completely understand why another man would.
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Old 10th January 2022, 08:42 AM   #2
Gord_in_Toronto
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I really think the answer to your question is "No". And you probably should not hit anyone. There are circumstances in which someone should be restrained from hitting to prevent further violence.

YMMV.
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Old 10th January 2022, 08:58 AM   #3
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It's OK if you're in the boxing ring with her. In fact, in that situation, I'd say you should, unless you want to end up on the canvas.
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Old 10th January 2022, 09:03 AM   #4
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The exact justifications to hit a man should suffice to hit a woman. On my personal scale, those justifications are exceedingly rare.
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Old 10th January 2022, 09:11 AM   #5
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I don't think it's about a man hitting a woman, so much as abusing far superior power, ie disproportionate response. The aggressive lesbian you describe, who was evidently sexually assaulting uninterested women, sounds like she was big enough to be treated as an equal. The issue becomes murkier when the man has 50 pounds of muscle on the woman. IMO, if you outgun your adversary dramatically, you are obligated to hold back.

My blushing bride once got mad at me about something or other when we were young, and let loose her inner Irish Catholic. I outweighed her by almost 80 aggressive lbs. Belted me in the face a couple times while I waited patiently for her to get it out of her system. Finally I stuck an open hand straight out at chest level to keep her out of striking range like in a Bugs Bunny cartoon. It was not a strike at all; if it was I would have broken her sternum, but it left small bruises in her cleavage area, about which I am frequently reminded.

Was I clean? I think so. Her take is to never ever "lay hands" on a woman, so I was abusive. She quite literally believes a man has to stand there and take whatever a woman dishes out.
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Old 10th January 2022, 09:14 AM   #6
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self defense only.
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Old 10th January 2022, 09:15 AM   #7
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I once lost it far enough to backhand a teenage girl in the mouth. She developed a fat lip and an urgent yearning for me to, no, not do it again, but to

I didn't. Damn me.
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Old 10th January 2022, 10:09 AM   #8
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Doesn't take much to trigger some people to hit a woman. It happens pretty regularly.

Despite all the things I've done in my time I never purposefully hit a woman. I was in an abusive relationship for about 2-3 years. You learn quick that even if you're the victim, to the police having a dick is the crime. The sad thing is I never called the cops on her because I didn't want her to get in trouble for the rest of her life.

Crazy times.
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Old 10th January 2022, 10:15 AM   #9
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It is just as OK for a man to hit a woman as it is for a woman to hit a man. Gender should not factor into the determination of acceptability, only circumstances.

The whole, "a man should never hit a woman" way of thinking is pure crap.
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Old 10th January 2022, 10:21 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
It is just as OK for a man to hit a woman as it is for a woman to hit a man. Gender should not factor into the determination of acceptability, only circumstances.

The whole, "a man should never hit a woman" way of thinking is pure crap.
Almost every time someone says something should "never" happen, it's ****.

That being said, there would have been no positive outcome for me to hit that woman, despite being hit repeatedly myself. First, the police would never believe that a 6 ft, 280 lbs man needed to clock a 5 ft 6 inch, 150 lbs woman in self-defense. I would have gone to jail, been prosecuted and spent more time. I was arrested as is and I was the one with the marks. I was acquitted because of a good defense team, but had I hit her I would have been guilty for sure. The only thing that got me acquitted were the pictures of her.
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Old 10th January 2022, 10:24 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Almost every time someone says something should "never" happen, it's ****.

That being said, there would have been no positive outcome for me to hit that woman, despite being hit repeatedly myself. First, the police would never believe that a 6 ft, 280 lbs man needed to clock a 5 ft 6 inch, 150 lbs woman in self-defense. I would have gone to jail, been prosecuted and spent more time. I was arrested as is and I was the one with the marks. I was acquitted because of a good defense team, but had I hit her I would have been guilty for sure. The only thing that got me acquitted were the pictures of her.
Yeah, no doubt you would have been judged harshly. Whether you were justified in defending yourself, or not. And that is the troubling part.
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Old 10th January 2022, 10:32 AM   #12
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I was once on a deli line in Lower Manhattan, near Spring and Lafayette Streets. This was back in the 1980s when it was still a rough neighborhood. A very burly and butch young woman came in and was asking one of the countermen a question. He didn't respond and I called to her, "He doesn't speak English." To my surprise she became incensed at me for 'butting in.'

When I went outside she was waiting for me. She snarled at me, "This ain't over, I hope you realize that." I noticed she literally had combat boots on. She looked pretty formidable and I had a hunch if she knocked me down she'd have stomped me. In fact, she might've said that, I don't remember. Anyway, to save face, I acted like the whole thing was ridiculous. "You think I'm going to fight you?" I rolled my eyes and laughed. "Give me a break." She sneered at me and said I wasn't going to fight her because I was "scared." She was right, of course, but I just laughed, shook my head and...casually walked away. I was going down in the subway and I was half afraid she was going to follow me. I don't think I let my breathe out until a train came in and I got on it!

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Old 10th January 2022, 10:33 AM   #13
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Quote:
Determining the rate of intimate partner violence (IPV) against males can be difficult, as men may be reluctant to report their abuse or seek help. Male victims of IPV may face socio-cultural issues such as judgement by male peers, fear of coming out as LGBTQ, or having their masculinity questioned. IPV against men is generally less recognized by society than IPV against women. For some men, admitting they are the victim of female perpetrated IPV could feel like admitting that they do not follow the established social role for men, and may be an admission they are unwilling, or unable, to make.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domest...ce_against_men
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Old 10th January 2022, 11:10 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
I unfortunantly kneed a girl in high school. I came close to hitting my now ex wife but I did not. When I was a kid in High school a older girl wanted my place in line waiting for the school bus to take us home and I kneed her causing a Charley Horse. I really hurt her and she was limping around trying to knock the crap out of me.

School is a special case, given that regular laws (against e.g. assault and battery) aren't usually applied there and students are forced into physically competitive situations. No, I don't mean PE class, I mean queues. Unlike for instance at the supermarket or even the DMV, queues in schools are not designed to enact any measure of fairness among the queued, but rather, solely for the convenience of whatever/whomever they're queueing for. Accordingly, line cutting is de facto allowed, and what's not allowed is line disputing. In any such dispute, should any adult staffer intervene, the one(s) who will be sent to the back of the line are invariably the one(s) who are not in line, even if that's the result of their having just been shoved out of it. Force is the only option against victimization. Any blame for the consequences should be laid to those who marched you into the arena and planned the games.
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Old 10th January 2022, 11:23 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
I once lost it far enough to backhand a teenage girl in the mouth. She developed a fat lip and an urgent yearning for me to, no, not do it again, but to

I didn't. Damn me.
Oddly, that girl's parents were an abusive couple. The mother was a great tall, thickset woman with decided views about everything. The father was a weedy, sullen, drunken little creep. He was capable of bullying his 10 year old son, but definitely was not up to defending himself against his wife, certainly not when sauced. Her mode of punishment was open-hand swings that staggered him, poor wretch. They'd have staggered a tougher customer. Lucky for him that women are so seldom trained in fistfighting.

You needn't think I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks. The tracks never reached our village.
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Old 10th January 2022, 11:46 AM   #16
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How is this even a question?
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Old 10th January 2022, 12:22 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How is this even a question?
Beats me. No . . . wait.
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Old 10th January 2022, 12:26 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How is this even a question?
Hi! You seem you trying to make sense of a Cainkan1 thread. Can I help you?

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Old 10th January 2022, 12:30 PM   #19
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If she's asking for it! Although i guess very few women find it enjoyable to be punched in the face or gut... Most people with masochistic tendencies just want to be roughly manhandled, spanked or at worst slapped. In fact, no matter how desperate they are, you probably shouldn't humor someone who wants you to really beat them up. Sometimes people just take things too far.
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Old 10th January 2022, 12:36 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How is this even a question?

It began with an auxiliary verb and ended with a question mark.
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Old 10th January 2022, 12:52 PM   #21
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I often think these sort of question get asked by people who didn't have sisters growing up...
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Old 10th January 2022, 01:00 PM   #22
plague311
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
If she's asking for it! Although i guess very few women find it enjoyable to be punched in the face or gut... Most people with masochistic tendencies just want to be roughly manhandled, spanked or at worst slapped. In fact, no matter how desperate they are, you probably shouldn't humor someone who wants you to really beat them up. Sometimes people just take things too far.
Quote:
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Hey, you remember that guy? The one who pretended to be a supervillain so he could get beaten up? What was his name..? Captain Carnage.

....

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What ever happened to him?

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Well, he pulled it on Rorschach, and Rorschach dropped him down an elevator shaft.

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Old 10th January 2022, 01:22 PM   #23
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As a scrappy youngster I was annoyed to find out about this rule as it meant I couldn’t in good conscience hit boys, knowing they weren’t allowed to hit back.

The point of the rule it seems to me, is mainly to help keep a lid on hot headed young guys before they have reached ‘ability to think things through’ levels of maturity, with the assumption that two boys scrapping is a self-leveling situation. Similar to the old ‘don’t hit a guy with glasses’ back when breaking someone’s glasses was a truly disproportionate amount of damage.

I agree with those in the thread that generally nobody needs to get hit at all, in extreme situations obviously you do whatever you need to do, and if anyone substantially weaker than you won’t let you opt out of a fight (and isn’t actually trying to shiv you) in an ideal world it ought to be acceptable to participate if you just keep it proportional.

Or like, non-competitive coed sports type fighting, if you just do it like if you were arm wrestling someone you massively outclassed, you can let them see what they’ve got without either letting them win or smashing their hand into the table.
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Old 10th January 2022, 01:35 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I was once on a deli line in Lower Manhattan, near Spring and Lafayette Streets. This was back in the 1980s when it was still a rough neighborhood. A very burly and butch young woman came in and was asking one of the countermen a question. He didn't respond and I called to her, "He doesn't speak English." To my surprise she became incensed at me for 'butting in.'...When I went outside she was waiting for me. She snarled at me, "This ain't over, I hope you realize that."...
Curious, I looked up the intersection on Google Streetview. It jogged my memory. It wasn't a deli it was a coffee shop. Closed now, the storefront with the dark awnings. The entrance was right on the corner. I remembered, 'Butch' became so loud and belligerent -- all because I volunteered, "He doesn't speak English," she said, I had "no right" to get in her business, that I was a "real *******" and would I like her to "mess me up?" -- that the manager asked her to leave.' Other patrons were laughing at her.

She was with two slender girls, very fem and blank-eyed (I think they were all drug users). One of the girls was getting into a car at the curb with New Jersey plates. Butch was standing where I inserted a black circle. The entrance to the subway was up the facing street, past the silver SUV.

Later when I told the guys about this, one said, "Man you shoulda lit her up. What were you afraid of her?" I answered, "Yes!" and the guys cracked up.
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Old 10th January 2022, 01:38 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
It is just as OK for a man to hit a woman as it is for a woman to hit a man. Gender should not factor into the determination of acceptability, only circumstances.

The whole, "a man should never hit a woman" way of thinking is pure crap.
I've hit a few women as an older teen. It was simply out of frustration and a history of being bullied. I'm not a big guy. But when the response is going to be disproportionate, like men who go into a rage and start throwing punches in bunches at women, I call that unjustified.

Hitting is so instinctive I think a better way to handle frustration is to grapple, but that takes some training and discipline to be able to perform under pressure. Today I'd rather grapple than strike with blunt force and potentially permanently damage someone (or myself!).
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Old 10th January 2022, 01:52 PM   #26
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Basically only if they are physically assaulting you or have a weapon and indicate an intent to use it on you. Now, there are some circumstances where this might have to go out the window--a particularly big woman against a particularly small man or in the case of multiple potential attackers the man might be justified in trying to get the first punch in.

I'll admit this is somewhat easy for me--I am a big enough man that the odds of me having trouble with a non-MMA female are small.
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Old 10th January 2022, 02:18 PM   #27
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The only times you should hit another human being is in a sporting event where hitting is part of the event, or as a use of force to defend yourself or another from physical harm. Gender really shouldn't matter. Big differences in size and mass probably should matter as a consideration of how much force you need to apply to reasonably stop the other person.

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Old 10th January 2022, 02:41 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Cat Not Included View Post
The only times you should hit another human being is in a sporting event where hitting is part of the event, or as a use of force to defend yourself or another from physical harm. Gender really shouldn't matter. Big differences in size and mass probably should matter as a consideration of how much force you need to apply to reasonably stop the other person.
I dunno about this business of precision-calibrating your punches to your violent attacker's apparent toughness, in a self-defense situation. If you're forced to fight against your will, you should fight dirty, go all-out, and try to end it decisively in your favor as quick as you possibly can. Violent attackers are not entitled to your restraint. You owe it to yourself to not hold back.
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Old 10th January 2022, 03:04 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you're forced to fight against your will, you should fight dirty, go all-out, and try to end it decisively in your favor as quick as you possibly can. Violent attackers are not entitled to your restraint. You owe it to yourself to not hold back.
And if you have a gun...
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Old 10th January 2022, 03:24 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I dunno about this business of precision-calibrating your punches to your violent attacker's apparent toughness, in a self-defense situation. If you're forced to fight against your will, you should fight dirty, go all-out, and try to end it decisively in your favor as quick as you possibly can. Violent attackers are not entitled to your restraint. You owe it to yourself to not hold back.
I'm surprised at how much I'm troubled by this conversation, it just goes to show that childhood conditioning can be quite compelling.

I've had a woman smash a beer jug over my head (from behind) no one knows why she did it, I was sitting at a long table in a beer garden, with all my colleagues, listening to the briefing the State Manager was giving us... (he called the meeting)

I've been cold-cocked (AKA King-hit, sucker-punched, coward punched) by a woman in a different bar because she thought I was hassling my good friend who had taken me there (again there were a group of us, no idea what she was responding to, and he was appalled by what she'd done.) (and yes, she knocked me out with a single punch)

And I've been attacked by a women during a bar fight. She went directly for my eyes, and her fingernails would have been very effective weapons if she'd succeeded.

No wonder that I'm uneasy in places that serve alcohol...



Despite all of that, I've never punched a woman, and have only ever injured women during training and when they caught me by surprise. (Sometimes, even a parry can quite seriously hurt someone, depending on how committed they are to their attack.)

My instinct is that my conditioning is so severe, it will probably be too late if I ever get to the point of needing to punch a woman. (i.e. I'm pretty sure that I would be too slow and fail to defend myself)
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Old 10th January 2022, 04:03 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How is this even a question?
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Originally Posted by Athyrio View Post
It began with an auxiliary verb and ended with a question mark.
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Heh, heh, heh... Ok, that's funny.

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Old 10th January 2022, 04:06 PM   #32
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What if it's an alien and you don't know if it's a man or a woman?
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Old 10th January 2022, 04:10 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Cat Not Included View Post
The only times you should hit another human being is in a sporting event where hitting is part of the event, or as a use of force to defend yourself or another from physical harm. Gender really shouldn't matter. Big differences in size and mass probably should matter as a consideration of how much force you need to apply to reasonably stop the other person.
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IMO, this is the best answer yet, except if I can, I'd run the other way.

Being called a coward would be the least of my problems, but of course, being dead would definitely alleviate the need to care about any of that.

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Old 10th January 2022, 04:13 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
What if it's an alien and you don't know if it's a man or a woman?
That's for the alien autopsy to determine.
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Old 10th January 2022, 04:29 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Cat Not Included View Post
....Big differences in size and mass probably should matter as a consideration of how much force you need to apply to reasonably stop the other person.
This should be the main consideration of whether you should hit them at all..
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Old 10th January 2022, 04:41 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Cat Not Included View Post
The only times you should hit another human being is in a sporting event where hitting is part of the event, or as a use of force to defend yourself or another from physical harm. Gender really shouldn't matter. Big differences in size and mass probably should matter as a consideration of how much force you need to apply to reasonably stop the other person.
I basically agree with this, but my personal circumstances give me pause. I'm a big guy. Over 6 foot and around 300 lbs. If you come at me in a physical confrontation, then you have already in some way made a judegement about relative size and mass, and decided to go for it. I'm not sure why I have to start thinking about it.

Simply put, I'm largely a pacifist, but if you decide to start attacking me, I'm not going to do some complex arithimatic, I'm just gonna hit you, then proably sit on you. Your fight - your problem.

Size/mass is not always a decent measure anyway. I know plenty of people a lot smaller and lighter than me who could comprehensively kick my ass and not break sweat.
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Old 10th January 2022, 04:59 PM   #37
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I have only had 3 Vilolent encounters with Women where there was physical Violence all directed at me, once My the Girl Friend fired at me with a Double barreled shot gun loaded with Double 00 buck. I RAN.
Second time my Girl Friend Tried to run me down with a Lincoln Continental. Third Time, I was hit over the head by a Busty German Blond exchange student, after I told her no when she said party.
I can see Why a Man might have too defend himself but I prefer to run, it probably healthiest in the long run.

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Old 10th January 2022, 05:35 PM   #38
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Examples where it is acceptable are rare, but they exist.

One of my former next door neighbours was a strong swimmer and a part time lifeguard. One day when he was off duty and walking along the local beach, he saw a young woman in distress about 100 ft off the shore. He swam out to help her, but when he put his arm around her from behind to bring her back to shore, she went full panic mode and started flailing her arms and elbowing him in the face and head. Fearing her actions might get them both drowned, he let her go, turned her around and executed a roundhouse punch that Sugar Ray Leonard would have be proud of. Contacted her flush on the jaw and knocked her out cold.

Then he proceeded to drag her to shore and save her life.

I would count that as acceptable!
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Old 10th January 2022, 06:51 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Examples where it is acceptable are rare, but they exist.

One of my former next door neighbours was a strong swimmer and a part time lifeguard. One day when he was off duty and walking along the local beach, he saw a young woman in distress about 100 ft off the shore. He swam out to help her, but when he put his arm around her from behind to bring her back to shore, she went full panic mode and started flailing her arms and elbowing him in the face and head. Fearing her actions might get them both drowned, he let her go, turned her around and executed a roundhouse punch that Sugar Ray Leonard would have be proud of. Contacted her flush on the jaw and knocked her out cold.

Then he proceeded to drag her to shore and save her life.

I would count that as acceptable!
So far then, one example.
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Old 10th January 2022, 07:30 PM   #40
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Inasmuch as anyone is justified in hitting anyone, I don't see why discrimination on the basis of sex (or anything else) is appropriate.
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