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Tags murder cases , New Zealand cases , Scott Watson

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Old 27th November 2015, 08:10 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post


"There are also lessons for the public. With the pressure placed upon police to "find their man" it is no wonder that on occasion "blue vision" occurs.

"Blue vision" was coined by Dr Jarrod Gilbert and refers to the tendency of the police to sometimes work back from a pre-determined outcome rather than to work toward a theory from the evidence gathered."


This could apply to any number of cases where the Police have looked for evidence they thought would convict they suspect (or planted evidence if they couldn't find what they wanted), while intentionally ignoring (and sometime actively suppressing) exculpatory evidence.


Arthur Allan Thomas
Peter Ellis
Teina Pora
Mark Lundy

There is no doubt whatsoever for anyone who is willing to research this case, that the Police decided early on that Scott Watson did it, and then arranged arrange the evident to suit.
And quite possibly the case of Angelika Graswald; damn all evidence and police (and prosecutors) trying to fit facts to their view of what happened.
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Old 27th November 2015, 11:02 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And quite possibly the case of Angelika Graswald; damn all evidence and police (and prosecutors) trying to fit facts to their view of what happened.
Excuse me for asking, not being a mod or actually care how off-topic that is, but what the hell does that have to do with anything?

People are stupid and bigoted everywhere?

This is not news.
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Old 7th December 2015, 01:09 AM   #163
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I think Scott's chances of getting retrial may have taken a backwards step...


http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/pol...net-reshuffle/
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Old 7th December 2015, 01:20 AM   #164
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You'd really like to think whoever the Minister is wouldn't make a difference to the courts.

I don't think we've gone that far down the left-hand path, have we?
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Old 7th December 2015, 02:11 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You'd really like to think whoever the Minister is wouldn't make a difference to the courts.

I don't think we've gone that far down the left-hand path, have we?
Cleared of wrongdoing in the Oravida affair or not, Collins has a reputation for getting what she wants and squashing anyone who crosses her.

I consider her to be one of NZ's least trustworthy government ministers. She towed the Policed line over Watson and other cases as Justice minister, and I have no doubt whatsoever that as Police minister she would bring pressure to bear on Amy Adams to stonewall over Watson et al..

Just look at her appalling actions in regard to the Teina Pora case; she made things as difficult as she possibly could in that case, only acting when the evidence of Pora's innocence was so conclusive that she could not possibly keep ignoring it.
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Old 7th December 2015, 03:21 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Cleared of wrongdoing in the Oravida affair or not, Collins has a reputation for getting what she wants and squashing anyone who crosses her.

I consider her to be one of NZ's least trustworthy government ministers. She towed the Policed line over Watson and other cases as Justice minister, and I have no doubt whatsoever that as Police minister she would bring pressure to bear on Amy Adams to stonewall over Watson et al..

Just look at her appalling actions in regard to the Teina Pora case; she made things as difficult as she possibly could in that case, only acting when the evidence of Pora's innocence was so conclusive that she could not possibly keep ignoring it.
Her work on the Bain compensation is unethical and plain criminal. A concerted drive to expose Miss Piggy is required. She deserves emails her office must pretend she has read firing specific questions. New Zealanders should be appalled by this and National should be buried. David Seymour is my Mp and rang me back when I queried the Lundy debacle. Watson of course is toast with deputy dawn English stating categorically "the matter has been dealt with."
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Old 7th December 2015, 12:58 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Cleared of wrongdoing in the Oravida affair or not, Collins has a reputation for getting what she wants and squashing anyone who crosses her.
She does indeed, but I still have confidence the courts will not be affected by her or any other political appointment.

She can try, she can bully, but so far she hasn't managed to make a difference.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Her work on the Bain compensation is unethical and plain criminal.
And outside the jurisdiction of the courts. Anyway, Baino's guilty, so in that case I see her as doing something right.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
A concerted drive to expose Miss Piggy is required. She deserves emails her office must pretend she has read firing specific questions.
Emails? What are emails supposed to achieve?

Exposing her as a crook has been tried and failed.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
New Zealanders should be appalled by this and National should be buried.
As you might have noticed, Key's poll results haven't moved. Very, very few people even think about any of these cases, far fewer care, infinitely fewer would have their vote swayed by them.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
David Seymour is my Mp and rang me back when I queried the Lundy debacle.
Seymour is a vulture after any scraps he can find.

But good luck with ACT. If anything, I'd rate them much worse than National. Charter schools alone have damned them for all time.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Watson of course is toast with deputy dawn English stating categorically "the matter has been dealt with."
Do you really think Catholic Bill has any influence on the court system?

I'm very sure he does not.
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Old 8th December 2015, 02:54 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Baino's guilty, so in that case I see her as doing something right.
Bain is one case that I am really not sure about.

I have posted my response in the David Nain thread so as not to derail this one


http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post10921983
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Old 8th December 2015, 09:47 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Bain is one case that I am really not sure about.

I have posted my response in the David Nain thread so as not to derail this one


http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post10921983
I am reading Trial by trickery but have read Trial by ambush. Both books are impossible to write if defending a guilty man is the aim.

I am a little surprised in our disgracefully insipid and obsequious country Keith Hunter got away with writing facts.
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Old 23rd January 2016, 04:22 AM   #170
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Atheist, don't have a heart attack

Publisher Ian Wishart says a new book will finally solve the infamous Marlborough Sounds murder case.

Wishart will next week publish the book, Elementary -- The Explosive File on Scott Watson and the Disappearance of Ben and Olivia. The book looks at the disappearance of Ben Smart, 21, and Olivia Hope, 17, in the Marlborough Sounds on New Year's Day, 1998.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11578710
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Old 23rd January 2016, 11:49 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Atheist, don't have a heart attack

[i]Publisher Ian Wishart says a new book will finally solve the infamous Marlborough Sounds murder case.
Yes, I saw that.

While I consider him to be a lower form of life than a gonorrhea bacteria, I can only admire his ability to garner publicity.

How many front-page stories have you seen in the past year on the subject of a NZ book being released?

I'm sure Ian will be as accurate as always.
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Old 23rd January 2016, 11:50 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'm sure Ian will be as accurate as always.
Maybe he could get Nigel Latta to do the illustrations. It's pretty standard for fairy tale books to have them.
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Old 23rd January 2016, 11:58 PM   #173
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My guess is he will unearth a drug connection. It is difficult to imagine an alternative. A very close likeness to the ketch was seen in Port douglas soon after by a witness I consider very good, who unfortunately had no camera. No smart phones then.
I imagine they were drugged and woke to find themselves at sea. Or maybe just Olivia Hope woke.
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Old 24th January 2016, 02:35 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Hard Cheese View Post
Maybe he could get Nigel Latta to do the illustrations. It's pretty standard for fairy tale books to have them.
Haha! Outstanding.
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Old 27th January 2016, 10:57 AM   #175
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So, as nobody waits with bated breath the release of Ian Wishart's nonsense, a different "theory" has emerged: they weren't killed and Olivia was alive five days afterwards!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11580510

I fail to see how these people think they're helping Watson by coming up with ideas that are outright idiotic.
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Old 27th January 2016, 11:33 AM   #176
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The problem remains that the ketch was seen everywhere for days after. I don't get it, surely you get outta town asap. One conclusion might be there were two ketches, one that was seen leaving at 6 30am from Endeavour inlet and heading straight for Australia with the couple, dead or alive, and another that corresponded to the multiple sightings.
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Old 27th January 2016, 12:24 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The problem remains that the ketch was seen everywhere for days after. I don't get it, surely you get outta town asap. One conclusion might be there were two ketches, one that was seen leaving at 6 30am from Endeavour inlet and heading straight for Australia with the couple, dead or alive, and another that corresponded to the multiple sightings.

That is a pretty unlikely scenario. The descriptions of the ketch are pretty consistent across the board

The ketch was remarked on as being very unusual in it layout. There was a witness (a boat builder/designer) who was able to describe specific details such as the types of ropes and fittings it had in the rigging. That is not the sort of detail that you would get from a cursory glance.

The chances of the there being two such unusual ketches at Furneaux on the same day is slim. There would have been witnesses who saw them both and that would make it even more difficult for the prosecution to claim (in fact, flat out lie) that there was no ketch at all.
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Old 27th January 2016, 01:37 PM   #178
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Warwick Jenness agrees with the idea of a drug connection.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11580721


This would seem to fit in with what a yachtie friend of mine told me, that the US DEA seized a 40ft ketch with a similar description in Montevideo (Uruguay) in 2005
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Old 27th January 2016, 01:38 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
That is a pretty unlikely scenario. The descriptions of the ketch are pretty consistent across the board

The ketch was remarked on as being very unusual in it layout. There was a witness (a boat builder/designer) who was able to describe specific details such as the types of ropes and fittings it had in the rigging. That is not the sort of detail that you would get from a cursory glance.

The chances of the there being two such unusual ketches at Furneaux on the same day is slim. There would have been witnesses who saw them both and that would make it even more difficult for the prosecution to claim (in fact, flat out lie) that there was no ketch at all.
I have no doubt at all thy disappeared on a ketch, but am asking what allowed the owners to brazenly stay in the area. I flat out cannot believe Olivia Hope was seen 5 days later unless she was drugged. Is that the suggestion?
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Old 27th January 2016, 02:08 PM   #180
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Great. Another Wishart book

I can't wait

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Old 27th January 2016, 02:28 PM   #181
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With public interest warming up in the case, it might be a good idea to give latecomers, lurkers and people not already familiar with the "Sounds Murders" a quick recap of the story and the flaws in the prosecution's case

This article does a fair job of that....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7412...f-Scott-Watson
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Old 27th January 2016, 02:42 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
With public interest warming up in the case, it might be a good idea to give latecomers, lurkers and people not already familiar with the "Sounds Murders" a quick recap of the story and the flaws in the prosecution's case

This article does a fair job of that....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7412...f-Scott-Watson
Public interest should warm up in Rob Pope and the execrable QC Kirsty MacDonald. Blood on hands everywhere. Ironically the Lundy case may topple first, I wonder what it will take to make New Zealanders mildly angry at these wicked hoaxes. Ewan MacDonald, you got very lucky young man.....
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Old 27th January 2016, 03:03 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Great. Another Wishart book

I can't wait

[off topic aside]

I'm no fan of Ian Wishart, AFAIC he is a complete asshat. However, I'll give him his due on two counts...

1. He's like a pitbull, when he gets his teeth into what he thinks is a good story, he doesn't let go.

2. The Paradise Conspiracy was a damned good book. It explained the intricacies of the "Magnum Transaction"(a key part of the Winebox Inquiry) better than any other source I have found.

The Paradise Conspiracy was his best work... unfortunately, its been all downhill since then.
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Old 27th January 2016, 07:10 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
[off topic aside]

I'm no fan of Ian Wishart, AFAIC he is a complete asshat. However, I'll give him his due on two counts...

1. He's like a pitbull, when he gets his teeth into what he thinks is a good story, he doesn't let go.

2. The Paradise Conspiracy was a damned good book. It explained the intricacies of the "Magnum Transaction"(a key part of the Winebox Inquiry) better than any other source I have found.

The Paradise Conspiracy was his best work... unfortunately, its been all downhill since then.
Gerald Hope has read most of the book. It appears Wishart has proved Watson did it. This is an interesting development because it should be the best effort available to square that circle. The downside is we will have to read it which means aiding and abetting his lifestyle.
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Old 28th January 2016, 12:55 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The downside is we will have to read it which means aiding and abetting his lifestyle.
Not if it were my own brother in jail would I give that slimy little maggot a cent.

Anyway, the Herald and media have chewed it over. Wishart proves that Watson did it, but with an accomplice and differently to how the pigs called it.

Snore...
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Old 28th January 2016, 01:30 PM   #186
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"The book describes the account of Matthew Stevens, who was eight years old in 1998. His story includes a detailed description of what he believed was Watson's ketch, Blade, in Queen Charlotte Sound after Ben and Olivia's disappearance and two men aboard:"

He's basing this "accomplice" conclusion on a detailed description from a 20 year old memory of a person when he was only 8 years old. Really? Can any of you accurately describe something that you saw for a few seconds, only once, when you were 8 years old?

In the Marlborough Sounds. there are literally tens of dozens of boats of all sizes and descriptions pottering around over the Christmas/New-Year period. At the time of the supposed sighting, the Blade was painted white, the most common colour for boats and yachts..Furthermore. the Blade is a single-masted 26 foot yacht (a sloop), which is THE most common single design of yacht on the sea. I'll bet I could take you one a one day speedboat tour of the Sounds and point out a couple of dozen yachts that would match the Blade's description.
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Old 28th January 2016, 01:45 PM   #187
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I find this curious, a confession the day after the murders

After Watson was convicted, Mr Stringer said, he and his wife were at a dinner with Keating, who laid out what he claimed was a confession made by Watson on New Year's Day 1998.

"[Keating] told me that Scott Watson had told him what he did."

Mr Stringer said he was told how Watson attacked Smart and "stabbed him to death", then "stabbed her [Olivia] to death".

"He wrapped them in sails and spare chain and took them out to where they would never be found and dropped them off," he claimed.

Mr Stringer said he knew Keating well and trusted him.


Confess in haste repent at leisure??
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Old 28th January 2016, 04:41 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I find this curious, a confession the day after the murders

After Watson was convicted, Mr Stringer said, he and his wife were at a dinner with Keating, who laid out what he claimed was a confession made by Watson on New Year's Day 1998.

"[Keating] told me that Scott Watson had told him what he did."

Mr Stringer said he was told how Watson attacked Smart and "stabbed him to death", then "stabbed her [Olivia] to death".

"He wrapped them in sails and spare chain and took them out to where they would never be found and dropped them off," he claimed.

Mr Stringer said he knew Keating well and trusted him.
Seems dubious to me. If he had stabbed them both to death, there would be some trace of blood somewhere on the boat, it's difficult stuff to get rid of.
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Old 28th January 2016, 06:02 PM   #189
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Ah, the old confession without corroboration trick, eh, chief?

How'd that work out last time?
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Old 28th January 2016, 06:47 PM   #190
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I'm about to help pay his rent. I see no choice.
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Old 28th January 2016, 07:17 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I'm about to help pay his rent. I see no choice.

Here is a more in depth look at the book. I am shaking my head here.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crim...rts-elementary
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Old 28th January 2016, 07:20 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I'm about to help pay his rent. I see no choice.
After you've done the deed, put it up on Mega. Double Whammy pay back.
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Old 28th January 2016, 07:49 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Annella View Post
Here is a more in depth look at the book. I am shaking my head here.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crim...rts-elementary
Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
After you've done the deed, put it up on Mega. Double Whammy pay back.
I would but bought hard copy. $38. Still learning that ebook game, but probably less than $20 that way.
An interesting project because politicians judges juries police and Gerald will all love it. If it can be simply debunked game on.
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Old 29th January 2016, 11:28 AM   #194
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Whitcoulls (a NZ book retailer) have pulled Wishart's book from their shelves after they were threatened with legal action.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11581823
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Old 29th January 2016, 01:42 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Whitcoulls (a NZ book retailer) have pulled Wishart's book from their shelves after they were threatened with legal action.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11581823
Maybe I read too much into it, but surely this will encourage people to dissect the evidence. This could be a game changer like Making a Murderer. Sir Peter Jackson? What do you think about justice in your backyard?

I got my copy from Whitcoulls just before they pulled it. Already I see the debate starts on freedom of speech in our country, and suggested this could never happen in America. Amanda Knox book, true story, was banned in Great Britain from the get go. I assume it is available now.
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Old 30th January 2016, 04:05 PM   #196
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I have read the book, and Wishart resolves various issues that leave the defence team some serious homework.
Indeed the ketch sighted by Ted Walsh looks like the Alliance, located where Keith Hunter places the mystery ketch, and sightings of people on board such as a blonde girl are consistent with the family involved and their movements.

Wishart has Watson returning to his boat before midnight, and putting on the jersey he was photographed at the supermarket with. This is consistent with Evidence at the bar.

The Eerie Bay evidence is effectively demolished from transcripts.

However, we are now compelled to believe he had one or two willing accomplices at short notice to get the bodies off the boat to an on land burial location.

As they say, just wow.

The interesting thing is that the police work remains a disaster, and the explanation to the people disgracefully inadequate. We go from there was no ketch in the inlet, to there was no ketch rafted to the boats that Wallace dropped them to. Why do the police not clarify this, and allow 60% of New Zealanders to be hoodwinked, if this is all so?
I provisionally withdraw criticism of the courts and QC's, but remain astounded that the police care so little about their reputation that they would not have done this work themselves.

If Watson is guilty, he will have been sustaining his claims of innocence with the support of public opinion. It will also fully explain why he refuses to meet Gerald Hope.
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Old 30th January 2016, 05:35 PM   #197
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It still leaves a lot of unresolved issues.

1. Wishhart does not explain the disparity in descriptions between the scruffy, long haired "Mystery Man' with several days beard growth. and the photos of Watson taken on the Mina Cornelia at about 9.30pm. The photo clearly shows Watson with short cropped hair and clean shaven. Bar manager Roz McNeilly, who served the "mystery man" at the lodge on New Year's Eve, changed her trial evidence and signed an affidavit saying the man she served was not Watson, after seeing the above-mentioned photo of Watson.

2. Wishart does not explain the testimony of the water taxi driver that he dropped off Ben, Olivia AND the Mystery Man on a boat that had a high freeboard (the distance between the water and the deck). Blade had a very low freeboard. Even if I could accept that Guy Wallace could have mistaken Blade for a bigger boat with an additional mast and round portholes and intricate rigging and ropework (which I don't), I cannot accept that he would be mistaken about the deck height of the boat. Blade's freeboard is less than a metre. It would have been a simple matter to "step over" onto the sloop but Wallace testified that he had to help them climb up onto the deck by having them reach up a grab a the rail. That sounds like over 2M of freeboard to me.

3. The two-trip theory makes no sense. If Guy Wallace took Watson over on one trip (which the Crown accepts) the who took him over on the other trip? Who brought him back between trips? There were a few water taxi drivers operating at Endeavour Inlet that night but not so many that the police could not have identified and interviewed all of them. Why has one not come forward?

4. If the Alliance owners were the mystery ketch and they were just a family group, why did they not come forward and eliminate themselves. I haven't seen any photos of Alliance... does it match the description of the mystery ketch?


What Wishart wants us all to believe, is that Watson, on the spur of the moment and without a motive, murdered two people in colde blood the middle of the night, and then found one or two accomplices at short notice, in the early hours of the morning of New Years Day, to assist him in cleaning up the crime scene and disposing of the bodies.

Is he serious?
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Last edited by smartcooky; 30th January 2016 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 30th January 2016, 06:42 PM   #198
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Wishart addresses all the objections you make to be fair.

It may be best to start again with the evidence and transcripts and see where it all leads. I will be interested to see reviews and so on. The book is about US$ 8.3 on Amazon, and worth skimming, he repeats a lot of stuff.

The hair issue is really strange, and I can't help with that. Watson had short straight dark hair, not medium length (to the shoulder) wavy hair.
You can bet Keith Hunter will try to answer everything, as will others. It will be interesting, and as I say, how in hell do you get help with two dead bodies at short notice?
More questions for sure.
Thank goodness the Lundy case is straightforward.
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Old 4th May 2016, 02:13 AM   #199
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After reading the initial statements and interviews there is no doubt at all Olivia and Ben boarded Blade with Watson about 3 30am on new years day. Anyone can challenge this but it is pointless.

Watson made a statement on 12th January.

I suppose I got to Erie Bay about half past 9-10 o'clock on New Year's day.
I went to see "Zappa" the caretaker <snip>
I was there for 3 days moored up at the wharf. I didn't go anywhere.

What happened to Ben and Olivia?
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Old 24th September 2016, 06:12 PM   #200
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The subject won't go away, with TV One scheduled to run a doco next Sunday.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11716201

I might have to watch that one.
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