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Tags murder cases , New Zealand cases , Scott Watson

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Old 25th September 2016, 02:18 AM   #201
Samson
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The subject won't go away, with TV One scheduled to run a doco next Sunday.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11716201

I might have to watch that one.
Yeah, with Chris Gallavin. He gets everything wrong except screwing taxpayer for a lazy million.
He said Pora was owed 6 to 10 million after being put up in a hotel for 20 years, and Watson is a miscarriage of justice. Crap and crap.
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Old 25th September 2016, 02:28 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
He said Pora was owed 6 to 10 million after being put up in a hotel for 20 years,...
I have to confess I find the disconnect between your attitudes toward Teina Pora and Oscar Pistorius hysterically funny.
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Old 25th September 2016, 02:37 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I have to confess I find the disconnect between your attitudes toward Teina Pora and Oscar Pistorius hysterically funny.
Frustration with Lundy being vented. 5 law schools vomiting graduates and not a peep about the greatest MOJ in NZ history, but Pora becomes a hard done by folk hero. Tim McKinnel was employed by Lundy and did the bare minimum, nothing without being paid, yet crawled for that miscreant.
Gallavin is just plain wrong and being well paid accordingly.
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Old 25th September 2016, 02:44 AM   #204
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Watson was torn to shreds in IW's books, it's a pity the clever dicks won't read them. I was reluctant to because he is so wrong on evolution and religion. I have learned a lesson, take everything at well intentioned face value and assess accordingly. Have you read the arresting interview with Scott Watson? He gets totalled. I am in no way surprised he refused to testify at trial. Note that Thomas Tamihere Bain and Lundy did, until they found it doesn't get through the lies the wily prosecutors have poisoned the juries with.
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Old 25th September 2016, 12:53 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Watson was torn to shreds in IW's books,...
Ian Watson is a known liar and conspiracist. I wouldn't read a word he's written and sure as hell would not pay the slimy little git. He'd be our very own Alex Jones if as many Kiwis were as bonkers as Yanks are.
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Old 25th September 2016, 01:56 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Ian Watson is a known liar and conspiracist. I wouldn't read a word he's written and sure as hell would not pay the slimy little git. He'd be our very own Alex Jones if as many Kiwis were as bonkers as Yanks are.
Ian Wishart.
There you go down the rabbit hole.
Wishart goes straight to crime scenes and first witness statements, then uses plain logic to analyse Watson and Tamihere. He is unassailable in these cases.
Gallivan is a fraud.

The important point is Wishart gets Hope and Smart onto a boat with low rails at about 5 am. They are never seen again.
He shows how Tamihere's story is unassailable similarly, he gets him to a car with camping gear and other possessions in the back, onto the road and giving tiki tours for tourists in exchange for basic accommodation for a couple of days, then off to Auckland in the car to abandon, and pawn the goods at Harmony House.
Did that high IQ Maori leave a dead body whose name was registered with LTSA near Whangamata in that scenario?
Polling on kiwiblog shows 80% believers, yet we call Wishart a knave?
You seriously disappoint me Atheist.
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Old 25th September 2016, 10:12 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Ian Wishart.
...
Gallivan is a fraud.
I know nothing about Gallivan, so whatever he's said or written is immaterial.

Wishart might even be right, but I don't care - he's a moron CTist. Nobody outside his coterie of like-minded morons reads anything he says - apart from you, it seems.
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Old 26th September 2016, 03:04 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I know nothing about Gallivan, so whatever he's said or written is immaterial.

Wishart might even be right, but I don't care - he's a moron CTist. Nobody outside his coterie of like-minded morons reads anything he says - apart from you, it seems.
Atheist, you are far better than this. You are literate, well read and sane.
Why resort to this diatribe?
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Old 26th September 2016, 03:25 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Atheist, you are far better than this. You are literate, well read and sane.
Why resort to this diatribe?
Probably because Wisharts and opportunistic idiot.

Look at dirty politics.

Published by one of the greens biggest donors.

Just to coincide with our fat German friends moment of truth

Which turned out to be fizzle

He is a leech. Not a journalist
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Old 26th September 2016, 04:04 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Probably because Wisharts and opportunistic idiot.

Look at dirty politics.

Published by one of the greens biggest donors.

Just to coincide with our fat German friends moment of truth

Which turned out to be fizzle

He is a leech. Not a journalist
I think you are confusing Wishart with Nikki Hagar, Cullen.
The mistake made all the time is to not examine the source material.
It is impossible to read the following books carefully without concluding the authors are correct in their findings.
I list them.

1. The Final Chapter by Chris Birt.
The conclusion is that Len Demler forged his wife's signature, Jeanette discovered this on visiting the family lawyer, called Len to confront him, so he came to the house to which he had open access, as father and neighbour, shot Harvey in the back of the head, then bludgeoned Jeanette breaking her skull, reloaded the one bullet 22, and shot her in the head. With Norma, who later got plenty of money, dumped the bodys in the Waikato river, to which there was direct access. Norma fed the baby.
2. Missing Pieces by Ian Wishart.
The conclusion is that Huia George Foley gathered the kids and the car, took them near Whangamata and killed Hoglin by stabbing, left him after failing to saw his head off with a knife. Heidi's fate unknown. Foley abandoned the car where Tamihere found it, the rest follows.
3. Trial by Ambush by Joe Karam.
This catalogues how the police failed to discover that Robin Bain was violating Laniet like others, and was confronted one dismal sunday night. Laniet and her mother raided a cash machine, and went to bed after the row. Robin stayed up drinking coffee and keeping the fire burning. When David left the house for his paper round, Robin put on the white stage gloves, took David's semi auto 22 and shot the family as efficiently as an experienced gunman could. Stephen fought back, Robin's hands became bloodied, but he managed to kill him.
With 4 dead bodies, and repenting at leisure, Robin turned on the computer when actions must precede words, typed "You are the only one who deserved to stay" then shot himself.
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Old 26th September 2016, 11:35 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Ian Watson is a known liar and conspiracist. I wouldn't read a word he's written and sure as hell would not pay the slimy little git.
Hello Michael, nice(not) to meet you.
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Old 30th September 2016, 12:14 AM   #212
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For Kiwis on this forum, there will be a two-hour documentary on the Scott Watson case on TV1 at 8:30 pm Sunday night

As for Ian Wishart, the guy is an opportunist asshat to whom I would not give the time of day.

I don't believe the conclusions he has come to in his book on the Watson case. In order to believe that Watson is guilty, you have to also believe that a whole bunch of eye-witnesses including the bar staff at Furnaux Lodge, the highly experienced water taxi driver Guy Wallace, and all the people who were with Watson on the Mina Cornelia are all lying or mistaken.

Originally Posted by Samson
"The important point is Wishart gets Hope and Smart onto a boat with low rails at about 5 am. They are never seen again."
Well that would not put them on the Blade.

The Blade had high rails with a low freeboard. The Mystery ketch was reported by Guy Wallace as having a high freeboard with low rails.
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Old 30th September 2016, 12:22 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
For Kiwis on this forum, there will be a two-hour documentary on the Scott Watson case on TV1 at 8:30 pm Sunday night

As for Ian Wishart, the guy is an opportunist asshat to whom I would not give the time of day.

I don't believe the conclusions he has come to in his book on the Watson case. In order to believe that Watson is guilty, you have to also believe that a whole bunch of eye-witnesses including the bar staff at Furnaux Lodge, the highly experienced water taxi driver Guy Wallace, and all the people who were with Watson on the Mina Cornelia are all lying or mistaken.



Well that would not put them on the Blade.

The Blade had high rails with a low freeboard. The Mystery ketch was reported by Guy Wallace as having a high freeboard with low rails.
I guess I will have to get the ebook Elementary 2 and post some stuff.
The initial witness statements are pretty compelling, as is the arest interview. I am sorry for a few people like Keith Hunter who have invested in this case, but that is the way I see it.
Wishart is sound on Watson and Tamihere regardless of his meagre fan club.
The secret witness though can expect a perjury prosecution taken by Arthur Taylor following the expected conviction of double killer witness C who ably assisted that criminal John Hughes to destroy Tamihere and his family, after destroying Artrhur Thomas and his family.
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Old 30th September 2016, 04:22 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Atheist, you are far better than this. You are literate, well read and sane.
Why resort to this diatribe?
What diatribe? Wishart has proven time and time again he's a liar and conspiracist. He is a nothing outside of conspiracist circles and I would immediately discount anything he says.

If he's ever right, it's simple stopped clock syndrome. He isn't capable of logic or reaching a reasonable conclusion.

What I'm better than is Ian Wishart. He actually came to a forum I was at once upon a time.

He is a sleazy little bottom-feeding scumbag. Christ, I'd rather go nightclubbing with Nigel Latta (whom I utterly detest) than spend 30 seconds with Wishart.

Originally Posted by acementhead View Post
Hello Michael, nice(not) to meet you.
What?

If you're using some kind of code, it went right by me. Are you another Wishart fan? I hope you buy his books - the bloke's a bit down on his money these days. Lost a few bob on Helen Clark, so I hear.
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Old 30th September 2016, 04:54 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
What diatribe? Wishart has proven time and time again he's a liar and conspiracist. He is a nothing outside of conspiracist circles and I would immediately discount anything he says.

If he's ever right, it's simple stopped clock syndrome. He isn't capable of logic or reaching a reasonable conclusion.

What I'm better than is Ian Wishart. He actually came to a forum I was at once upon a time.

He is a sleazy little bottom-feeding scumbag. Christ, I'd rather go nightclubbing with Nigel Latta (whom I utterly detest) than spend 30 seconds with Wishart.

He's tootin' his own horn in the comment section of amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-r...SIN=B01ASUG3WK

Look how I bested that nobody Keith Hunter!

And Elementary 2.0:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...der_B01F0R5SJK

shows mystery ketch
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Old 30th September 2016, 07:10 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
He's tootin' his own horn in the comment section of amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-r...SIN=B01ASUG3WK

Look how I bested that nobody Keith Hunter!

And Elementary 2.0:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...der_B01F0R5SJK

shows mystery ketch
I can't see why there is a wilful disregard for Wishart on this thread, I don't believe a word of Intelligent Design, but that is irrelevant. I have read all the initial WSes in both books, and these are what should be discussed. Wishart is the messenger, so why shoot him?
I try to read everything to unravel these cases, and no service is done to the primary outstanding Lundy and Tamihere hoaxes while refusing to examine evidence in Watson.
I wish he was innocent for his dad's sake, but history should be correctly recorded. That is how we learn.
Disappointing to say the least.

ETA I am half way through the Teina Pora book, and I must say God Help New Zealand if Amy Adams becomes prime minister. She is a liar of the first order, along with Collins and Key in their public statements saying the system is working. It is not, it is a total disaster. They are lucky, no one who supports them cares. I find myself hoping their kids get arrested as innocents. Nothing less will move these Madames Defarge.

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Old 30th September 2016, 07:23 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I can't see why there is a wilful disregard for Wishart on this thread, I don't believe a word of Intelligent Design, but that is irrelevant. I have read all the initial WSes in both books, and these are what should be discussed. Wishart is the messenger, so why shoot him?
I try to read everything to unravel these cases, and no service is done to the primary outstanding Lundy and Tamihere hoaxes while refusing to examine evidence in Watson.
I wish he was innocent for his dad's sake, but history should be correctly recorded. That is how we learn.
Disappointing to say the least.

ETA I am half way through the Teina Pora book, and I must say God Help New Zealand if Amy Adams becomes prime minister. She is a liar of the first order, along with Collins and Key in their public statements saying the system is working. It is not, it is a total disaster. They are lucky, no one who supports them cares. I find myself hoping their kids get arrested as innocents. Nothing less will move these Madames Defarge.
Watson may well have committed the murders. But with an accomplice? Who was not corroborated by other testimony? Now he's using the same logic as everyone he derides. Here:

http://www.investigatemagazine.co.nz...of-elementary/

btw. Keith Hunter responded to you:
http://nostalgia-nz.blogspot.com/201...l#comment-form

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Old 30th September 2016, 08:53 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Watson may well have committed the murders. But with an accomplice? Who was not corroborated by other testimony? Now he's using the same logic as everyone he derides. Here:

http://www.investigatemagazine.co.nz...of-elementary/

btw. Keith Hunter responded to you:
http://nostalgia-nz.blogspot.com/201...l#comment-form
I posted a review by Charlie Wilkes to Nostalgia's blog also, who called Wishart's conclusions BS.
I've spoken to all of them, and my views remain unchanged, Nostalgia knows what I think.
Mike Kallaugher is also a supporter of Watson, and Mike White a supporter of press access to prisoners, which is a disgraceful element in New Zealand justice, which frankly relies heavily on a fog of apathy and couldn't care less as long as its someone elses family being demolished.
Are you an NZer?
The court of appeal in New Zealand is soon going to be called to account for a dozen false sanctifications of rogue verdicts. These judges have brazenly breached professional ethics to support cabinet, the status quo, and the thugs in the private clubs they rely on for mutual adulation..
I

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Old 1st October 2016, 12:38 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I can't see why there is a wilful disregard for Wishart on this thread, ...
He is a liar.

He promotes conspiracies.

He lies consistently.

He is anti-fluoride.

He has no interest or understanding of "truth".

He is an anti-vaxer.

His is a huge liar.

I can give you more if you like.
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Old 1st October 2016, 01:06 AM   #220
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Wishart is an opportunistic tosser.
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Old 1st October 2016, 04:07 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
He is a liar.

He promotes conspiracies.

He lies consistently.

He is anti-fluoride.

He has no interest or understanding of "truth".

He is an anti-vaxer.

His is a huge liar.

I can give you more if you like.
Being anti fluoride is no great problem. The periodic table is a wondrous thing, unintended consequences abound. Did David Lange advance New Zealand fair with his plutonium on the breath accusation?
There is a gulf between application of thinking about science, dna, and so on, where purported best practice models evolve, and simply examining how many water taxis were plying that waterway at 4 am.
The answer is numerically 0, 1 or many, that is the mathematical model.
Which answer in that multi choice question is for you?
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Old 1st October 2016, 11:08 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Being anti fluoride is no great problem.
Wrong.

It is actually a huge problem, but it's a different subject, so feel free to start a thread.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The periodic table is a wondrous thing, unintended consequences abound. Did David Lange advance New Zealand fair with his plutonium on the breath accusation?
Utterly irrelevant, but indeed he did. It helped harden the opposition to American nukes.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
There is a gulf between application of thinking about science, dna, and so on, where purported best practice models evolve, and simply examining how many water taxis were plying that waterway at 4 am.
The answer is numerically 0, 1 or many, that is the mathematical model.
Which answer in that multi choice question is for you?
Zzzzzzzzz.

If there's a point you want to make, go ahead and make it.
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Old 1st October 2016, 02:00 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Wrong.

It is actually a huge problem, but it's a different subject, so feel free to start a thread.



Utterly irrelevant, but indeed he did. It helped harden the opposition to American nukes.



Zzzzzzzzz.

If there's a point you want to make, go ahead and make it.
one
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Old 1st October 2016, 03:34 PM   #224
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nostalgianz pretty much calls out Wishart's book for what it is, a work of fiction.

In Elementary 2, Ian Wishart pretty much approaches the subject from a standpoint of "I am going to prove Scott Watson murdered Ben Smart and Olivia Hope". He then set about doing what any Conspiracy Theorist does;

1. Dismiss any evidence that doesn't fit his preconceived notions

2. Don't mention any evidence that he can't find a way to dismiss

3. Reinterpret (i.e. twist) evidence to make it support his view

4. Substitute his own opinion for actual facts

5. Assassinate the characters of any witnesses whose evidence he cannot dismiss or twist

His methodology and actions are indistinguishable from those of Jarrah White (moon hoax believer), Richard Gage (911 truth nutter) and Alex Jones (general CT nutcase)
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Old 1st October 2016, 05:04 PM   #225
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I have drawn conclusions more by reading the second book, most haven't read it I suspect. It is a tragedy for everyone, new trials don't work, let him out and watch him I suggest. Asking him to admit to something he has steadfastly denied is a waste of time. I hope he is innocent for his father's sake.
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Old 1st October 2016, 05:08 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
one
What did Guy Wallace lie about? IW keeps saying that he lied but what was it?




If you would have purchased the ebook you could be highlighting quotes and copy/pasting but noooo ...
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Old 1st October 2016, 05:32 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
What did Guy Wallace lie about? IW keeps saying that he lied but what was it?




If you would have purchased the ebook you could be highlighting quotes and copy/pasting but noooo ...
As I said, I will. As long as I don't get lambasted for supporting the wicked Wishart.
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Old 1st October 2016, 06:06 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
As long as I don't get lambasted for supporting the wicked Wishart.
You weren't.

I was pointing out why I have no interest in anything he says. You can support who you like - just don't expect others to buy them.
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Old 1st October 2016, 06:59 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You weren't.

I was pointing out why I have no interest in anything he says. You can support who you like - just don't expect others to buy them.
I read everything once I get interested, I haven't found a better way. I read stuff if it's obviously wrong, look at the crap being written about Amanda Knox, and finally the world is being informed.
This should happen here too. Giving the police the last word is not working.

I wish the Watson family well in their efforts to clear his name.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 01:58 AM   #230
Annella
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Excellent documentary so far...I sure hope it will be available for the 'furriners' interested in this case. Maybe on youtube, later.
Echoes of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito fiasco but then so many cases being looked at worldwide are.
We have to start prosecuting the prosecutors. Pronto.

ETA: Well, after proving them wrong first of course.

Last edited by Annella; 2nd October 2016 at 02:10 AM.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 02:20 AM   #231
Samson
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Originally Posted by Annella View Post
Excellent documentary so far...I sure hope it will be available for the 'furriners' interested in this case. Maybe on youtube, later.
Echoes of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito fiasco but then so many cases being looked at worldwide are.
We have to start prosecuting the prosecutors. Pronto.

ETA: Well, after proving them wrong first of course.
I am recording it to watch. I know a number of activists supporting Watson, unfortunately I believe they are wrong. I have done my homework.
May the best truth win.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 02:24 AM   #232
Annella
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I am recording it to watch. I know a number of activists supporting Watson, unfortunately I believe they are wrong. I have done my homework.
May the best truth win.
Not just the best truth...THE truth. Something is dreadfully awry with this case I believe. I am no activist btw... But you know that.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 02:29 AM   #233
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After 5 minutes I can say this is a fraud on the NZ taxpayer. Sorry Annella, it is total crap.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 02:44 AM   #234
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I love your work on Amanda Knox Annella, I am militantly opposed to the Kercher dignity culture, I have no stomach for accusing innocent people of crimes when the facts are beyond doubt, as that family did do, there is no excuse available when science beats conjecture and fanatical devotion to the lying attorney lets a family destroy Amanda and Raffaele, yet here we are now.
Gallivan is a moron who is ignoring real issues in pursuit of taxpayer money for a quasi popular cause.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 03:25 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post

Originally Posted by acementhead View Post
Hello Michael, nice(not) to meet you.
What?

If you're using some kind of code, it went right by me. Are you another Wishart fan? I hope you buy his books - the bloke's a bit down on his money these days. Lost a few bob on Helen Clark, so I hear.
I thought that you seemed so antagonistic to Wishart that you must be Michael Fay. As I understand it Wishart wrote "The Paradise Conspiracy" which, although I've never read it, I think showed Fay in an unfavouraable light. Happy to be proved wrong.

I've never bought or even read anything by Wishart.

I watched the Scot Watson "documentary" and was only just able to finish watching it. Almost as bad as trying to watch Hillary Clinton. Disgracful tendentious tripe. Man the sister is weird; I'd have convicted him on her alone.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 03:32 AM   #236
Samson
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Originally Posted by acementhead View Post
I thought that you seemed so antagonistic to Wishart that you must be Michael Fay. As I understand it Wishart wrote "The Paradise Conspiracy" which, although I've never read it, I think showed Fay in an unfavouraable light. Happy to be proved wrong.

I've never bought or even read anything by Wishart.

I watched the Scot Watson "documentary" and was only just able to finish watching it. Almost as bad as trying to watch Hillary Clinton. Disgracful tendentious tripe. Man the sister is weird; I'd have convicted him on her alone.
I am still suffering through this, it is the lowest point in fact finding I can recall. Gallivan should be sacked before he destroys aspirational youth.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 03:41 AM   #237
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Ian Wishart is worth 100 Gallivans. He may not understand how evolution theory can survive the missing link, but his attention to logic, witness statements and primary evidence means multiple police frauds in NZ are being called.
I spent thursday in the high court watching the unravelling begin. Ironically warring factions will not necessarily find this process easy.
As for Michael Fay, he couldn't care less what preoccupies the common citizenry.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 03:53 AM   #238
acementhead
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
As for Michael Fay, he couldn't care less what preoccupies the common citizenry.


Of course, but didn't the exposure of the wine box affair cause Fay a bit of grief?
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Old 2nd October 2016, 03:58 AM   #239
Samson
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Originally Posted by acementhead View Post
Of course, but didn't the exposure of the wine box affair cause Fay a bit of grief?
Indeed, Wilkinson was hogtied in his findings. There was a momentous fraud perpetrated, it is complex but in a small country we must suck it up. Why are the Chinese able to bulldoze P onto boats to distribute here?
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Old 2nd October 2016, 05:33 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by acementhead View Post
I watched the Scot Watson "documentary" and was only just able to finish watching it. Almost as bad as trying to watch Hillary Clinton. Disgracful tendentious tripe. Man the sister is weird; I'd have convicted him on her alone.
I find that really disturbing - that you would convict someone purely because you don't like their relative. That alone pretty much tells me that I need to dismiss anything you say. I watched the documentary, and came to entirely the opposite conclusion about her. I found Watson's sister affable and likeable. She is obviously a no-BS straight shooter who will tell you exactly what she is thinking. After what the Police have put her and her family through, she would need to be a strong woman - perhaps you are threatened by that?

I thought the whole documentary was well presented, incisive and explained complicated issues in a very easy to understand manner, without losing any of the important detail.

It also made the key points very well.....

1. That the police considered Watson and the Mystery Man to be one and the same person when they were clearly and obviously not.

2. That the Mystery ketch actually existed (and therefore the police lied about it when they said there was no ketch)

3. That the Police manipulated the media to bias the public against Scott Watson

4. That the Police intimidated witnesses and tried to get them to change their stories, and bullied and threatened those who stuck to their guns.

5. That the Police intentionally used a cooked up photo of Watson (that didn't look like him) in order to fool Guy Wallace and Roz McNeilly into picking him out. Both witness subsequently recanted that ID once they saw a better likeness of Watson.

Gallivan was very kind to the Police at the end, saying that they did a good job etc etc. , I wouldn't have been so kind.

IMO, the Police in this case acted reprehensibly and in an utterly incompetent manner. They failed to fully investigate the key factor in the whole case - the whereabouts and identity of the mystery ketch. This is indicative of a failure to follow the most fundamental methods of criminal investigation - the gathering of ALL of the evidence and only then the drawing conclusions. Instead, they made up their minds early on that Watson was guilty, and set about searching only for the evidence that fitted their case, ignoring exculpatory evidence, manipulating the media, and then bullying, badgering, coercing and threatening witnesses who were giving reports that didn't fit in with what they wanted to hear.

Shameful.
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