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Tags Coronavirus , Sweden incidents , Sweden issues

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Old 3rd May 2020, 02:52 AM   #361
dann
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Folkhälsomyndigheten nobbar smittspårning via mobiler (SVT.se, May 3, 2020)
The Publich Health Agency of Sweden rejects using cell phones to trace infections
(They don’t want to use the necessary resources.)

Quote:
– Från Österrike, som under lång tid inte såg någonting själva, hade vi en stor import till Norden.
Tegnell: Italienresenärerna inte största källan till smitta (SVT.se, May 2, 2020)
Translation:
Many cases came to the Nordic countries from Austria even though the country didn’t notice anything for a long time.
Tegnell: Travellers to and from Italy were not the biggest source of infection


Deaths per million (total) (TV2.dk, May 3, 2020)
Sweden: 266 (2,669)
USA: 202 (66,385)
Denmark: 82 (475)
Finland: 40 (220)
Norway: 39 (211)
Iceland: 30 (10)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd May 2020, 03:37 AM   #362
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11 people in Sweden told us what it's like living in one of the few countries with no compulsory coronavirus lockdown (Business Insider, May 2, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd May 2020, 03:50 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
As I said, the lockdown happened on March 18.

https://www.worldometers.info/corona...untry/belgium/

Looks pretty early to me but you will be better able to tell us how the curves compare to other countries.
All the sources I see say they didn't close until March 20th at which point they already has 2,257 cases and 27 deaths. That's not early.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 05:03 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
All the sources I see say they didn't close until March 20th

Funny that you post no source for that at all while I have posted two (Deutsche Welle and Guardian) that show Belgium locked down on March 18. Must be invisible.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 05:17 AM   #365
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Belgium did go into lockdown on the 18th, with almost 1500 cases and 14 deaths, after already having had 2 cases at the beginning of the month.
Doesn’t sound early at all.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 05:17 AM   #366
dann
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Bear in mind that the number of cases almost always means number of registered cases, i.e. people tested positive - and sometimes they are days behind with the registrations.
Total Coronavirus Deaths in Belgium (Worldometers)
March 15: 4
March 16: 10
March 17: 10
March 18: 14
March 19: 21
March 20: 37
March 21: 67
March 22: 75
March 23: 88
March 24: 122
March 25: 178
March 26: 220
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd May 2020, 06:01 AM   #367
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Denmark, locked down the same day with half the population: 1052 active cases, 4 deaths
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Old 3rd May 2020, 11:24 AM   #368
dann
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Quote:
Fram till förra veckan hade Danmark testat mer än dubbelt så många för covid-19 som Sverige i förhållande till befolkningens storlek. Och testningen kommer att utökas än mer för att kunna kontrollera smittspridningen när landet nu öppnar upp mer och mer.
(…)
Förra veckan, 20-26 april, testade Danmark runt 68 000 personer samtidigt som 24 000 människor testades i Sverige.
Danmarks plan: 300 000 coronatester i veckan (SVT.se, May 3, 2020)
Translation:
Until last week, Denmark had tested more than twice as many for Covid-19 than Sweden compared to the size of the population. And the testing will increase even more in order to control the spread of the virus when the country now opens more and more.
(…)
Last week, April 20-26, Denmark tested approximately 68,000 while 24,000 were tested in Sweden.
Denmark’s plan: 300,000 coronatests a week

Something doesn't seem right in this text: Sweden is almost twice the size of Denmark, which means that Denmark must have tested 5 times more than Sweden – per capita – considering the sizes of the populations.


Hospital workers are complaining about the work load: Överläkaren: ”Personalen gråter efter sina arbetspass” (SVT.se, May 3, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 3rd May 2020 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 4th May 2020, 05:36 AM   #369
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Quote:
Just how big a gamble did Sweden take when it bucked the trend in Scandinavia and opted never to lock down the country? Its death toll now far exceeds that of its less populated neighbours, with the virus most notably tearing through nursing homes. The payoff, argue the Swedes, is that more than an estimated one quarter of the population is now immune to the coronavirus. Herd immunity was never an option in France, where hospitals were quickly overrun with patients. In past pandemics, citizens never considered confinement as an option. What can history teach us about the present crisis?
Worth the risk? Sweden bets on herd immunity (FRANCE 24 English, April 20, 2020 - 42:30 min.)

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 4th May 2020, 08:23 AM   #370
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Today the Swedish media wrote about the many Covid-19 deaths in nursery homes, and apparently staff went to work in spite of having Covid-19 symptoms, and the Swedish Work Environment Authorities toned down the need for protective gear, facemarks as well as shields, because they didn't have enough.

Detta har hänt: Striden om munskydden på Serafen (SVT.se, April 28/May 2, 2020)
Efter SVT:s granskning: Kommunal JO-anmäler Arbetsmiljöverket (SVT.se, May 4, 2020)
Kritik mot myndigheternas munskyddsagerande: ”Anmärkningsvärt” (SVT.se, May 4, 2020)
Därför drabbade covid-19 äldreboenden (Aftonbladet.se, May 4, 2020)
Sjunkande förtroende för äldrevården (Aftonbladet.se, May 4, 2020)

As Arcade22 wrote a few weeks ago:
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
That damn Anders and his conspiratorial co-conspirators are subjecting Sweden to a terrifying experiment and they are not even honest about it!

Deaths per million (total) (TV2.dk, May 4, 2020)
Sweden: 276 (2,769)
USA: 206 (67,686)
Denmark: 85 (493)
Finland: 43 (240)
Norway: 40 (213)
Iceland: 30 (10)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 4th May 2020 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 4th May 2020, 08:31 AM   #371
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You know countries can just make good and bad decision. Not everything is about whatever social-political-economic philosophy they follow.

//For the record I think Sweden has bungled this, bad.//
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Old 4th May 2020, 09:32 AM   #372
dann
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I know, I know! It's not as if Denmark has been much better, and I'm not at all in denial about it:
Plejehjem og hjemmepleje kom bagerst i køen, da staten prioriterede værnemidler (DR.dk, May 4, 2020)
Kritik af kommuners pandemiplaner: Hvor var kitler og masker, da coronavirus kom? (DR.dk, May 3, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 5th May 2020, 07:55 AM   #373
dann
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20 minutes ago:

The Daily Social Distancing Show with Trevor Noah: Dr. Anders Tegnell - Sweden’s Decision Not to Impose Quarantine (May 5, 2020 – 10 min.)

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Deaths per million (total) (TV2.dk, May 5, 2020)
Sweden: 284 (2,854)
USA: 209 (68,934)
Denmark: 87 (503)
Finland: 44 (246)
Norway: 40 (214)
Iceland: 30 (10)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 5th May 2020 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 6th May 2020, 06:11 AM   #374
dann
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
It's not the smoking, it's the nicotine that is protective. All about the ratio of ACE and ACE-2 receptors. I had to read through a bunch of papers to get at why that could be!!

Nicotine downregulates ACE-2 receptors which SarsCovid-2 hijacks to infect. (There are some new prelim studies that try to contradict this but it is a well-studied fact) An otherwise healthy smoker would have less chance of getting a severe case. However, smoking leads to (or is often correlated to) all sorts of other diseases that prove co-morbid with it. So I guess it depends.

Hypertension seems to be the biggie (which goes along with obesity, heart disease, diabetes, diet, age, and simple genetics). This increases ACE and ACE-2 receptors.
Especially vulnerable are those who take ACE inhibitors. They will inhibit ACE, but not ACE-2. ACE-2 is impervious to those medications.

The Chinese smokers were greatly underrepresented in a large Covid-19 case study. They smoke a lot (a lot!), but their obesity levels are very low- hence low levels of all the other co-morbid diseases and less Covid-19 cases.

Do Swedish people smoke more than average? They do not seem to have any obesity issues.

I wanted to ask you, but forgot: Is the point the nicotine as such, and doesn't it depend on the way that it's ingested? In another post you recommended nicotine gum rather than vaping, which seems to indicate that the nicotine doesn't have to enter the lungs, and I just found this: Nicotine patch test on Covid patients, healthcare workers to see if smokers are ‘protected’ (The Print, May 3, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 6th May 2020, 06:18 AM   #375
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Two very different attitudes (and strategies) - both from epidemiologists:

Sweden:
Quote:
Det finns väldigt lite länderna kan göra för att stoppa coronaviruset – och i princip alla människor kommer utsättas.
Giesecke: Det är inte säkert att ett vaccin kommer vara effektivt (SVT.se, May 6, 2020)
Translation:
There is very little the countries can do to stop the coronavirus – in principle, everybody will be exposed to it.
Giesecke: There is no guarantee that a vaccine will be effective

Denmark:
Quote:
Selv hvis Danmark genåbner storcentre, biblioteker, zoologiske haver og for eksempel lader Superliga-bolden rulle uden tilskuere, så vil coronavirussen sandsynligvis dø ud af sig selv.
Ny rapport fra SSI: Selv med yderligere åbning vil epidemien dø ud - for nu (TV2.dk, May 6, 2020)
Translation:
Even if Denmark lets malls, libraries, zoos and for instance the football super league reopen (the latter without audiences), the coronavirus will likely die out on its own.
New report from SSI: Even with more openings the epidemic will die out – for now SSI is Statens Serum Institut


Deaths per million (total) (TV2.dk, May 6, 2020)
Sweden: 284 (2,854)
USA: 216 (71,078)
Denmark: 87 (506)
Finland: 44 (246)
Norway: 40 (215)
Iceland: 30 (10)

ETA: Sweden's number of corona deaths now 2,941
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 6th May 2020 at 06:22 AM.
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Old 7th May 2020, 12:20 AM   #376
dann
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
There are also some other specific legal challenges Sweden has, I outlined them on a twitter thread you might find interesting.

I hadn't noticed this until now when I was looking for something else from a few weeks ago. I can see how it would give Anders Tegnell the autocratic position he seems to have, but it is still weird.
Do the researchers who oppose him risk their jobs and positions? I get the impression that they are treated like dissidents. And at this point, their warnings seem to have been forgotten by the media or maybe deliberately ignored.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th May 2020, 05:26 AM   #377
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Well, we just solved the crisis.

We're getting an Instagram concert next week featuring "artists" to celebrate everyday heroes, courtesy of the Authority for Community Protection and Preparedness. The announcement came after a reminder to stock up on food and water.
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Old 7th May 2020, 07:18 AM   #378
dann
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Do you have a link? I wasn't able to find anything about the concert.

The Swedish authorities are now considering using face shields and masks in nursing homes - in spite of the lack of scientific evidence. It is up to the local authorities to decide if it's a good idea - if they can get hold of any.

Quote:
– Trots det magra vetenskapliga underlaget ser vi att man kan överväga att lägga till munskydd eller visir som en extra åtgärd. Det här är en avvägning man måste göra lokalt och utefter de förutsättningar man har.
Folkhälsomyndigheten öppnar för munskydd i äldrevården (SVT.se, May 7, 2020)

In the meantime, staff at one nursing home move around from corona-infected to uninfected residents:

Personalen på Bergas äldreboende går mellan coronasjuka och friska (SVT.se, May 7. 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 7th May 2020 at 07:23 AM.
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Old 7th May 2020, 07:40 AM   #379
dann
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Sveriges utskällda väg är det nya normala (Aftonbladet.se, May 7, 2020)
Sweden's criticized strategy is the new normal

I am not really sure if the journalist understands the difference between between the Swedish way and New Zealand opening up again after having conquered the virus - and with the facilities to trace new cases in place.

Över 3 000 döda av coronaviruset i Sverige (Aftonbladet.se, May 7, 2020)
More than 3,000 dead from coronavirus in Sweden - 3,040, to be exact.


Deaths per million (total) (TV2.dk, May 7, 2020)
Sweden: 303 (3.040)
USA: 223 (73,431)
Denmark: 88 (514)
Finland: 46 (255)
Norway: 40 (216)
Iceland: 30 (10)

At this point, Iceland is down to 49 people infected with coronavirus, i.e. of 1,799 infected, 1,750 have now recovered from the virus. The Faroe Islands have had 187 confirmed infections. 185 have recovered, no deaths (yet, but ...).
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th May 2020, 07:51 AM   #380
dann
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Do you have a link? I wasn't able to find anything about the concert.

OK, I found it! Artister hyllar coronahjältar under MSB-vecka (helagotland.se, May 7, 2020) I had a hard time translating the Authority for Community Protection and Preparedness into Swedish.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th May 2020, 11:21 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Sveriges utskällda väg är det nya normala (Aftonbladet.se, May 7, 2020)
Sweden's criticized strategy is the new normal

I am not really sure if the journalist understands the difference between between the Swedish way and New Zealand opening up again after having conquered the virus - and with the facilities to trace new cases in place.
You are right, the author seem to fail to understand that here in NZ we have had just 21 deaths, and 1141 confirmed cases in total. Sweden had 705 new cases and 99 just yesterday. Here we are had less than 5 new cases for over a week, and several of those days we had no new cases. We have also conducted 34,43 tests/million people compared to Sweden's 14,704, less than half of what we have been doing.

And we are going slower than a lot of people want, though faster then some medical experts want.

At the moment we have it under control, the moment it looks like we haven't, restrictions will be reapplied.

Trying to compare what we are doing to what they are is a total joke.
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Old 8th May 2020, 08:15 AM   #382
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And the joke continues.
This is from an interview with the former national epidemiologist Johan Giesecke:

Quote:
Han är en stor försvarare av den svenska strategin och säger till DN att vi ligger bäst till i hela världen. Han jämför med önationen Nya Zeeland, som har målet att eliminera viruset. Giesecke undrar vad myndigheterna ska göra när viruset inte längre finns i landet.
– Det innebär att alla som reser in till Nya Zeeland måste sitta 14 dagar i karantän. Kommer det inget bra vaccin talar vi om decennier innan det kan komma att ändras, konstaterar han.
Giesecke: Grannländerna kommer att komma ikapp (Aftonbladet.se, May 8, 2020)
Translation:
He is a firm advocate of the Swedish strategy and tells DN (Swedish newspaper) that we are positioned as the best in the world. He compares with the island nation New Zealand, which intends to eliminate the virus. Giesecke wonders what the authorities will do when the virus has been eliminated in the country.
- That entails that anybody going to New Zealand will have to be quarantined for 14 days. If no good vaccine is developed, it will take decades before things change, he states.
Giesecke: The neighbouring countries will catch up


In the meantime, the Swedish strategy seems to be to infect as many people as possible - even people who are already sick. The same story in two newspapers:

Personal på Karolinska: Uppmanas jobba även om vi är smittade (SVT.se, May 8, 2020)
Staff at Karolinska Hospital encouraged to work even if they are infected
- as long as they don’t have other symptoms

Nya dokument: Tvingas jobba – trots positiva prov (Aftonbladet.se, May 8, 2020)
Forced to work – in spite of positive tests


Deaths per million (total) (Worldometers, May 8, 2020)
Sweden: 314 (3.175)
USA: 233 (77,058)
Denmark: 90 (522)
Finland: 47 (260)
Norway: 40 (217)
Iceland: 30 (10)

ETA: Notice the way Finland and Norway have changed places since April 25. Apparently the Finns stil don't do enough testing.
And I think people in New Zealand and Iceland should consider visiting each other's countries. It's too bad the two countries are so far apart.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 8th May 2020 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 8th May 2020, 10:51 AM   #383
Lennart Hyland
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Originally Posted by dann View Post

In the meantime, the Swedish strategy seems to be to infect as many people as possible - even people who are already sick. The same story in two newspapers:

Personal på Karolinska: Uppmanas jobba även om vi är smittade (SVT.se, May 8, 2020)
Staff at Karolinska Hospital encouraged to work even if they are infected
- as long as they don’t have other symptoms

Nya dokument: Tvingas jobba – trots positiva prov (Aftonbladet.se, May 8, 2020)
Forced to work – in spite of positive tests
Well the articles cleary states that Karolinska believe you dont infect other people of you have the corona virus but without symptoms.

So its not their strategy to "infect as many people as possible.".
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Old 8th May 2020, 01:59 PM   #384
dann
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Originally Posted by Lennart Hyland View Post
Well the articles cleary states that Karolinska believe you dont infect other people of you have the corona virus but without symptoms.

So its not their strategy to "infect as many people as possible.".

Well, let me rephrase it, then: "the Swedish strategy seems to be to remain in denial about the fact that people infected with the virus can and do transmit it to others even when they are asymptomatic."
Is that better, Hyland?!

Quote:
Most transmission of the coronavirus occur in the earliest stages of the disease, sometimes before a person is experiencing symptoms, according to a new study.
The study, published Friday in the Journal of the American Medical Association Internal Medicine, is the latest to illustrate that preventing the spread of COVID-19 may not be as simple as identifying and isolating anyone carrying the virus. Experts have consistently stressed the need for social-distancing measures, like Ohio’s current Stay Safe order, by saying that a person could be asymptomatic but still pass the virus on to others.
Coronavirus most likely to be passed by someone asymptomatic or in early stages of disease, study says (Cleveland.com, May 6, 2020)

Quote:
Smittspridning
Det finns rapporter om att personer utan symtom har smittat andra personer. Men det finns få studier som beskriver hur smittsam man är, och om detta utgör en betydande del av smittspridningen i samhället. Utifrån den erfarenhet som finns just nu, av covid-19 och andra liknande sjukdomar, är bedömningen att smittspridningen från personer utan symtom står för en mycket begränsad andel.
Frågor och svar om covid-19 (coronavirus) (Folkhälsomyndigheten, April 3, 2020)

By the way, I also notice that Swedish authorities seem to think that it is bad for other countries when enough (!) people haven't yet been infected since it means that they won't have acquired herd immunity.
That seems to entail a strategy of having as many people as possible infected, so you can return to business as usual as soon as possible. Too bad about the ones who didn't survive ...

Why do you think the hospital workers are concerned about this attitude, Lennart Hyland?
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 8th May 2020 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 8th May 2020, 03:53 PM   #385
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The best way to protect a population from a deadly virus is to make sure most of them catch it. Said nobody ever, until now it seems.
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Old 9th May 2020, 08:12 AM   #386
Lennart Hyland
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Well, let me rephrase it, then: "the Swedish strategy seems to be to remain in denial about the fact that people infected with the virus can and do transmit it to others even when they are asymptomatic."
Is that better, Hyland?!
Well no not really. Anders Tegnell said in one of the articles that thats not what their recommendation will be. They are looking into for how long you should stay home if you are asymptomatic. Karolinska though seems to be quite reckless.
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Old 9th May 2020, 08:35 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The best way to protect a population from a deadly virus is to make sure most of them catch it. Said nobody ever, until now it seems.
Actually, anti-vaxxers have been saying that about measles and varicella for a while now.
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Old 9th May 2020, 11:51 AM   #388
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Anders Tegnell confirm that herd immunity isn't Swedens goal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWPIGty2f6Q
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Old 9th May 2020, 04:53 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Actually, anti-vaxxers have been saying that about measles and varicella for a while now.

Good point, well made.
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Old 9th May 2020, 04:55 PM   #390
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By the way did I post this already or not? Good insight on the Swedish situation by the author of "The hammer and the dance".

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...613109760.html
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Old 9th May 2020, 05:04 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
And the joke continues.
This is from an interview with the former national epidemiologist Johan Giesecke:
Translation:
He is a firm advocate of the Swedish strategy and tells DN (Swedish newspaper) that we are positioned as the best in the world. He compares with the island nation New Zealand, which intends to eliminate the virus. Giesecke wonders what the authorities will do when the virus has been eliminated in the country.
- That entails that anybody going to New Zealand will have to be quarantined for 14 days. If no good vaccine is developed, it will take decades before things change, he states.
The problem is that we don't know how much immunity getting the virus will install in a person, and how long that immunity lasts. Letting it roam free in your population may not actually do anything for immunity. Sweden could just as easily get a 2nd and 3rd go around as we might, in fact more so.

Quote:
And I think people in New Zealand and Iceland should consider visiting each other's countries. It's too bad the two countries are so far apart.
I seriously do think that is one idea, where countries that are shown to be clear of it only open their borders to other countries that are free from it, and of you want to visit a country that isn't, you have to have a 14 day quarantine. At least until there is a vaccine or some other form of treatment.
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Old 9th May 2020, 05:08 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
and of you want to visit a country that isn't, you have to have a 14 day quarantine.
I would make it 25 days. Also there must be no way to escape or bribe yourself out or anything.

ETA: It also should be like solitary confinement so that nobody in quarantine infects anyone else in quarantine.
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Old 10th May 2020, 01:33 AM   #393
dann
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Originally Posted by Lennart Hyland View Post
Anders Tegnell confirm that herd immunity isn't Swedens goal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWPIGty2f6Q

I posted your wonderful video ten days ago. It doesn't make Anders Tegnell any more reliable:

Originally Posted by dann View Post
CNN, April 30, 2020:
Deaths climb in country that didn't lock down. Officials identify big reason why. (9 min.)
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2020, 01:40 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
By the way did I post this already or not? Good insight on the Swedish situation by the author of "The hammer and the dance".

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...613109760.html

It's the first time I see it.

Quote:
Did Sweden admit they were wrong after all? After weeks pushing for a #coronavirus strategy that would result in herd immunity, saying that deaths wouldn't be that bad, the chief epi for Sweden is now surprised at the death toll.

He'll never admit that he's wrong. He seems to have learned the lesson from Trump.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2020, 01:59 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Lennart Hyland View Post
Well no not really. Anders Tegnell said in one of the articles that thats not what their recommendation will be. They are looking into for how long you should stay home if you are asymptomatic. Karolinska though seems to be quite reckless.

Not just Karolinska:

Quote:
– Många vill ha bekräftelse på att det är okej att stanna hemma eftersom de känner sig tvingade att gå till jobbet trots att de är sjuka. De känner sig ifrågasatta och cheferna tycker att ”lite sjuk kan du vara”, säger en sjuksköterska på 1177, som vill vara anonym, till SVT.
1177-sköterska: Sjuka känner sig tvingade att gå till jobbet i äldreomsorgen (SVT.se, May 10, 2020)
- Many want confirmation that it is OK to stay home since they feel forced to go to work in spite of being sick. They feel that they are being distrusted and their think that "it's OK if you are just a little ill", a nurse at 1177, who wants to be anonymous, said to SVT.
1177 Nurse: Sick workers in nursing homes feel forced to go to work

1177 (Wikipedia)


1177-sköterska: Vårdpersonal pressas att jobba sjuka (SVT.se, May 10, 2020)


The employers will likely be sued because of this.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2020, 02:08 AM   #396
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Analys: ”Sverige används som skräckexempel i Argentina” (SVT.se, May 10, 2020)
Analysis: The case of Sweden is used as a deterrent in Argentine

... and not just in Argentine!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2020, 02:25 AM   #397
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Deaths per million (total) (Worldometers, May 8, 2020)
Sweden: 319 (3.220)
USA: 242 (80,040)
Denmark: 91 (526)
Finland: 48 (265)
Norway: 40 (219)
Iceland: 29 (10)


The Faroe Islands have now eliminated the virus! All 187 infected have recovered. No deaths.

Faroes the highest frequency coronavirus tester in the world (CPH-post, April 3, 2020)

Quote:
Adopting an offensive testing strategy and quarantine measures, 8,403 islanders in a population of some 48,497 were tested, of which 187 tested positive, all of whom have now recovered, said Barour a Steig Nielsen, prime minister of the Faroe Islands, which is located 320 kilometers north-northwest of Scotland, and about halfway between Norway and Iceland.
The Faroe Islands claims COVID-19 cases free (Xinhua Net, May 9, 2020)

Iceland isn't quite there yet, but very close (Worldometers):
Total cases: 1,801
Recovered: 1,773

Since yesterday, Sweden has more coronavirus deaths per million than Holland.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 10th May 2020 at 02:30 AM.
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Old 10th May 2020, 02:37 AM   #398
dann
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I would make it 25 days. Also there must be no way to escape or bribe yourself out or anything.

25 days would be insane if you have proper testing in place.

Quote:
ETA: It also should be like solitary confinement so that nobody in quarantine infects anyone else in quarantine.
Yes, that's how they got rid of it in the Faroe Islands. They used a hotel for the purpose. (Not this one. I'm surprised they still haven't changed the name.) I assume the Faroe hotel didn't have any visitors anyway, so why not?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2020, 02:59 AM   #399
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An American in Denmark during the Covid-19 lockdown talks about corona hygge:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2020, 05:00 AM   #400
dann
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Analys: ”Sverige används som skräckexempel i Argentina” (SVT.se, May 10, 2020)
Analysis: The case of Sweden is used as a deterrent in Argentine

Bogeyman in Argentine, corona hero and sex symbol in Sweden: Coronahelt med strithår og kvindetække: Nørden blev sexsymbol (BT, May 10, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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