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Tags Coronavirus , Sweden incidents , Sweden issues

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Old 19th April 2020, 10:58 PM   #201
Skeptic Ginger
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Sweden ponders tougher stance as coronavirus death rate tops neighbours'
Quote:
But after a week of sobering data, Mr Lofven now seems to be striking a darker tone. In an interview published yesterday by Dagens Nyheter, he warned that Sweden may be facing "thousands" of coronavirus deaths, and that the crisis is likely to drag on for months.

Newspaper Expressen reported that his government may be seeking extraordinary powers to bypass Parliament and force through a tougher response to the virus.
You can't just pretend this is no worse than a bad flu year. Look around you. This may look like a measured response. That may be misjudging the situation.
Quote:
Sweden has already taken a few steps towards more restrictions. It recently banned gatherings larger than 50. Visits to retirement homes for the elderly are also banned, and Mr Lofven has made clear stricter instructions may follow.
Coronavirus: Sweden's death rate shows danger of 'herd immunity'
Quote:
While other nations have imposed lockdown restrictions to help prevent the spread of coronavirus, Sweden’s shops, bars and schools remain open. But what effect has this had?
It starts with a discussion of the UK experience I posted about above.
Quote:
But while the UK‘s policy is now firmly in line with that of the vast majority of the world, Sweden remain an outlier. The Scandinavian country says it is relying on citizens to take responsibility and has given guidelines rather than any strict restrictions. Schools, shops and bars remain open with gatherings of up to 50 people still permitted.

Much of their response is based on advice from Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s chief epidemiologist, who has advocated the policy. He has previously told Swedish TV that coronavirus could be stopped by “herd immunity, or a combination of immunity and vaccination”....

The death rate of coronavirus-infected patients in Norway is less than 2%, with the figure in Denmark around 4%. In Sweden, nearly 8% of people to have contracted coronavirus have died.

Concerns are also growing about the spread of the virus in nursing homes, with one third of Stockholm’s nursing homes reporting cases....
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Old 20th April 2020, 02:00 AM   #202
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A colleague of mine died today from Covid19. He went home from work on april 3rd, was taken into intensive care over Easter and passed away this morning after seeming to get better over last week. He was 39 years old.
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Old 20th April 2020, 02:42 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
A colleague of mine died today from Covid19. He went home from work on april 3rd, was taken into intensive care over Easter and passed away this morning after seeming to get better over last week. He was 39 years old.
I'm sorry to hear that - that's sad, frightening and worrying.

One of the things I'm finding it difficult to work out about Coronavirus is how freaked out to be. On one hand, the vast majority of fatalities have been among the over 70's and those with preexisting health conditions - I'm in neither of those groups. On the other hand that still leaves thousands of people who are in neither of those groups.

One thing which has been notably absent from the mass media and the social media I access are "This is the end of the world" stories. Indeed all the hyperbole tends to be on the "This is nothing to worry about" side. I cannot work out why that is.
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Old 20th April 2020, 03:23 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
On one hand, the vast majority of fatalities have been among the over 70's and those with preexisting health conditions - I'm in neither of those groups.

Nyeste corona-tal fra Danmark og verden: Så mange er smittede, døde og indlagte (TV2, April 20, 2020)

Så gamle er de indlagte og døde = The age of the hospitalized and the dead

The number of corona deaths in Denmark in different age groups:
0-59: 10
60-69: 40
70-79: 111
80-89: 133
90+: 61
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Old 20th April 2020, 03:42 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
A colleague of mine died today from Covid19. He went home from work on april 3rd, was taken into intensive care over Easter and passed away this morning after seeming to get better over last week. He was 39 years old.

Tragic! That patients appear to be getting better before finally dying is an aspect of his disease that is described in many of the cases.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th April 2020, 04:01 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
One thing which has been notably absent from the mass media and the social media I access are "This is the end of the world" stories. Indeed all the hyperbole tends to be on the "This is nothing to worry about" side. I cannot work out why that is.

That's because it's not the end of the world. There are too many people on the planet anyway. It's true that removing say 10% of them at random would be a huge disruption and possibly strain civilisation due to the effect on supply chains and production and so on (although that wouldn't apply if it was a slow process allowing for managed contraction and recruitment of replacements), but losing 1% of the population skewed towards retired people is not a threat.

Even if this is never controlled and it gets to the stage where it's endemic and people are dying of it at a constant but much slower rate, it's not a threat to civilisation. Not even if people who recovered from it this year get it again and die of it in 2022, so long as the case fatality rate stays around 1%. (And by the way none of that is going to happen because we will have a vaccine for this within two years, probably sooner.)

What it is, is a threat to your individual life. It's a very odd virus in the wide range of clinical severity seen. I can't immediately think of anything else that ranges from asymptomatic through the whole spectrum of very mild to severe to fatal quite like this one does. And while some things seem to tip the odds in your favour (being white, female, under 60, blood group O, and even, counterintuitively, apparently being a smoker) there will be plenty of young white women with O blood group who enjoy a fag who will die of this. If they were able to figure out why some people are so seriously affected and some aren't it might help, but apart from viral load I don't think anyone knows.

So it's down to "do you feel lucky, punk?" You're playing Russian roulette if you allow yourself to get infected with this thing. There may only be one bullet per 100 chambers, but do you really fancy your luck that much?
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Old 20th April 2020, 04:22 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
A colleague of mine died today from Covid19. He went home from work on april 3rd, was taken into intensive care over Easter and passed away this morning after seeming to get better over last week. He was 39 years old.
Oh my God! Sorry to hear that. Very young to die of COVID-19 as well!
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Old 20th April 2020, 04:30 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
But by all means, being on the front line there, you tell us what is going on. What is your evidence Sweden is doing so well without a lockdown?
Let's see: there are plenty of ICU beds available. That's a very good example of how Sweden is coping "well". Of course that is because the people who are dying are too weak and frail to move from care homes to the hospitals, but that illustrates the problem. The problem is that most of the care homes for the elderly lacked sufficient protective equipment to use routinely in a preventive manner.

Sweden's strategy has never been to neither to try and completely stop the spread of infection nor let it infect everyone. It's been to try and reduce the rate of infection as much as feasible without too much socioeconomic damage. That's what almost every other country is doing.

Quote:
Again, I'm not using any other EU country comparison except what Dann posted. I said, "The point is just that we need to look at multiple variables here and be cautious comparing countries."
I'd seriously recommend that you get another source of information.

Quote:
Just today the news was a nursing home in Sweden had a serious outbreak. I watch a lot of German (DK) and other international news sources on TV. I'll try to find a web source.
It's not a nursing home, it's like every other nursing home in Stockholm had a serious outbreak.
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Old 20th April 2020, 04:32 AM   #209
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Hmmm.

https://twitter.com/bencoates1/status/1251069853408153600

https://twitter.com/Georgeberger/status/1252173501550792705
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Old 20th April 2020, 04:41 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
And while some things seem to tip the odds in your favour (being white, female, under 60, blood group O, and even, counterintuitively, apparently being a smoker) there will be plenty of young white women with O blood group who enjoy a fag who will die of this.

Smokers 14 times more likely to contract coronavirus - According to research by Chinese doctors, acute smokers are more at risk of dying from COVID-19 than elderly people. (AlJazeera, April 16, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th April 2020, 04:44 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
That's what almost every other country is doing.
(...)
It's not a nursing home, it's like every other nursing home in Stockholm had a serious outbreak.

Some countries appear to be doing it very wrong ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th April 2020, 04:47 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Oh okay then keep on comparing apples and potatoes while thinking you are making some "interesting" point.

So far, we have been comparing corona deaths to corona deaths, which seems to bother you immensely.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th April 2020, 05:00 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by dann View Post

Well, that seems the more likely thing. But I read a summary of research that surprisingly seemed to point the other way. I imagine the correct answer will emerge in time. Meanwhile, don't take up fags!

ETA: Here's the link where I read the stuff about the smoking statistics. https://twitter.com/KlausKblog/statu...95506118307840
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Old 20th April 2020, 06:16 AM   #214
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This is from a very long article with many more links to other articles and studies:

Quote:
A meta-analysis of the relationship between smoking and influenza found that smokers were more likely to be hospialized and admitted to the ICU.
Consistent with this science, analysis of deaths from corona virus in China shows that men are more likely to die than women, something that may be related to the fact that many more Chinese men smoke than women. However, one study from China that evaluated predictors of death among all people hospitalized with COVID-19 did not find an association with smoking. Another study from China of patients diagnosed with COVID-19 associated pneumonia who had been in the hospital for two weeks reported that the odds of disease progression (including to death) were 14 times higher among people with a history of smoking compared to those who did not smoke. This was the strongest risk factor among those examined.
Reduce your risk of serious lung disease caused by corona virus by quitting smoking and vaping (Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education, April 16, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th April 2020, 06:18 AM   #215
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It certainly seems highly improbable that smoking would be in any way protective from this virus, so perhaps the study I read was an outlier of some sort.
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Old 20th April 2020, 07:34 PM   #216
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Quote:
- We do not have a large spread of infection within the home service. Now, 0.6 percent of our users are found to be infected. It is not that there is any large spread within the home service, said Erik Slottner (KD) in yesterday's Agenda.

"Are you sure?" Asked the hostess Anna Hedenmo.

- Yes, and it's very important to say. The current figure is 0.6 percent.

Behind the 0.6 percent that Slottner refers to, there are 77 elderly people who have been found infected by covid-19 and who are cared for in the home care service in Stockholm. But the Elder Citizens' Council does not count in that figure is 95 people who became ill with covid-19 in the home service but who have become so ill that they have been transferred to hospitals.

In addition, an additional 106 people are suspected of being infected by covid-19 within the home care service in Stockholm.

...

- Many people who have seen this segment can get the feeling that it is some-kind of uncontrolled spread of covid-19 in the home care and the elderly, and it is very important to say that it is not. It can spread an unnecessary fear, especially among many relatives.

...

The questionnaire that the elderly management in Stockholm collected last week and which Agenda took part shows that today there are 13,886 people over 65 who receive home care in Stockholm. But it is not clear how many of them tested for covid-19. Not even the Public Health Authority knows. Therefore, it is not possible to say how many are infected by covid-19. When Erik Slottner points out that only 0.6 per cent is found to be infected, the dark figure can thus be large.

When Agenda makes contact with Erik Slottner on Monday, the day after Agenda's broadcast, he is also not so sure.

- I would have said that we have not seen any signs of a large spread of infection and I fully agree that we do not know everything. We do not have any information on how many of the home service users have been tested for infection, says Elder Mayor Erik Slottner (KD) in Stockholm.
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/st...itikern-pastar

"Home service" is basically when employees from the municipality visit people, typically the elderly but also those with special needs and handicaps, to make sure they are healthy and such. They might also deliver food, medicine and so forth. It's almost certainly a major source of how the infection has spread.

Locally, one of my mothers acquaintances with whom she went in the same class in school who apparently worked at home service, actually got infected from one of the "users" and died. I think he's one of the first ones.

And yes, that's what they call people who receive home service. Users.
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Old 20th April 2020, 07:38 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
A colleague of mine died today from Covid19. He went home from work on april 3rd, was taken into intensive care over Easter and passed away this morning after seeming to get better over last week. He was 39 years old.
Damn that sucks. All these people who believe only old people are dying. It seems so needless.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 20th April 2020, 07:56 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That's because it's not the end of the world. There are too many people on the planet anyway. It's true that removing say 10% of them at random would be a huge disruption and possibly strain civilisation due to the effect on supply chains and production and so on (although that wouldn't apply if it was a slow process allowing for managed contraction and recruitment of replacements), but losing 1% of the population skewed towards retired people is not a threat.

Even if this is never controlled and it gets to the stage where it's endemic and people are dying of it at a constant but much slower rate, it's not a threat to civilisation. Not even if people who recovered from it this year get it again and die of it in 2022, so long as the case fatality rate stays around 1%. (And by the way none of that is going to happen because we will have a vaccine for this within two years, probably sooner.)

What it is, is a threat to your individual life. It's a very odd virus in the wide range of clinical severity seen. I can't immediately think of anything else that ranges from asymptomatic through the whole spectrum of very mild to severe to fatal quite like this one does. And while some things seem to tip the odds in your favour (being white, female, under 60, blood group O, and even, counterintuitively, apparently being a smoker) there will be plenty of young white women with O blood group who enjoy a fag who will die of this. If they were able to figure out why some people are so seriously affected and some aren't it might help, but apart from viral load I don't think anyone knows.

So it's down to "do you feel lucky, punk?" You're playing Russian roulette if you allow yourself to get infected with this thing. There may only be one bullet per 100 chambers, but do you really fancy your luck that much?
Gee thanks Rolfe. I'm 66, have hypertension, have an autoimmune disease treated with immunosuppressive drugs and I think there was something about type A blood which I have that was a risk factor. Frankly I don't want to die.

Glad you give a ****.

Sorry, I'm probably misreading your post even after reading it twice.
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ORANGE MAN BAD? Why yes, yes he is.

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 20th April 2020, 07:59 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Oh okay then keep on comparing apples and potatoes while thinking you are making some "interesting" point.
What about comparing Sweden to two other Scandinavian countries? How do you see the differences.

I do want to know. The news media certainly isn't helping. Someone living there could be very helpful.
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ORANGE MAN BAD? Why yes, yes he is.

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 20th April 2020 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 20th April 2020, 08:13 PM   #220
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Perhaps might be misreading, I think Rolfe is saying that we should all be more careful, but that we aren't as a whole panicking about the virus (like we should) because the risk factors are so nebulous. Even those individuals who are at high risk, have contracted the virus and had minor symptoms. I don't think Rolfe was writing you off so much as explaining why the uneducated don't feel like it's a sufficiently dangerous threat to them.
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Old 20th April 2020, 09:00 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Perhaps might be misreading, I think Rolfe is saying that we should all be more careful, but that we aren't as a whole panicking about the virus (like we should) because the risk factors are so nebulous. Even those individuals who are at high risk, have contracted the virus and had minor symptoms. I don't think Rolfe was writing you off so much as explaining why the uneducated don't feel like it's a sufficiently dangerous threat to them.
Well I think it would more likely than not be a death sentence for me. The risk factors are not nebulous. They may change people's odds from .01% chance of dying to 20-30% or more chance of dying.

At the Life Care Center in Kirkland 43 people died. One was a staff member so that means out of 120 patients, 42 died. That's more than 30%
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ORANGE MAN BAD? Why yes, yes he is.

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 21st April 2020, 12:15 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It certainly seems highly improbable that smoking would be in any way protective from this virus, so perhaps the study I read was an outlier of some sort.
It's not the smoking, it's the nicotine that is protective. All about the ratio of ACE and ACE-2 receptors. I had to read through a bunch of papers to get at why that could be!!

Nicotine downregulates ACE-2 receptors which SarsCovid-2 hijacks to infect. (There are some new prelim studies that try to contradict this but it is a well-studied fact) An otherwise healthy smoker would have less chance of getting a severe case. However, smoking leads to (or is often correlated to) all sorts of other diseases that prove co-morbid with it. So I guess it depends.

Hypertension seems to be the biggie (which goes along with obesity, heart disease, diabetes, diet, age, and simple genetics). This increases ACE and ACE-2 receptors.
Especially vulnerable are those who take ACE inhibitors. They will inhibit ACE, but not ACE-2. ACE-2 is impervious to those medications.

The Chinese smokers were greatly underrepresented in a large Covid-19 case study. They smoke a lot (a lot!), but their obesity levels are very low- hence low levels of all the other co-morbid diseases and less Covid-19 cases.

Do Swedish people smoke more than average? They do not seem to have any obesity issues.

Last edited by Sherkeu; 21st April 2020 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 21st April 2020, 12:17 AM   #223
dann
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Even those individuals who are at high risk, have contracted the virus and had minor symptoms.

Yes, some of them. Not all of them. And don't forget cases like this one:

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
A colleague of mine died today from Covid19. He went home from work on april 3rd, was taken into intensive care over Easter and passed away this morning after seeming to get better over last week. He was 39 years old.
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Old 21st April 2020, 12:33 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Sorry, I'm probably misreading your post even after reading it twice.

I think you are misreading it.
It is like saying that life goes on. And it does, of course, for the people who don't die. But for those who die, it obviously doesn't. That was the point of the Russian-roulette analogy.
But it should be stressed that you don't just play Russian roulette with your own life. You also risk passing it on to others who have significantly more bullets in the chamber than you.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 12:58 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Do Swedish people smoke more than average? They do not seem to have any obesity issues.

Quote:
Sweden
The first research of smoking habits in Sweden was performed in 1946; it showed that 50% of men, and 9% of women were smokers. In 1977 41% of men and 32% of women were smokers.[39] By 2011, the use of smoking tobacco on a daily basis had decreased to only 12.5% and 14.3% among women. The use of snus, on a daily basis among men older than 15 years, was approximately 19.4% and only 3.0% for women.
Prevalence of tobacco use: Sweden (Wikipedia)

20.60% of Swedes are obese according to Wikipedia’s list: List of countries by obesity rate
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 01:47 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Gee thanks Rolfe. I'm 66, have hypertension, have an autoimmune disease treated with immunosuppressive drugs and I think there was something about type A blood which I have that was a risk factor. Frankly I don't want to die.

Glad you give a ****.

Sorry, I'm probably misreading your post even after reading it twice.

Yes, you are misreading it. I was saying that the virus is not a threat to civilisation and that the main consideration as an individual should be the threat to your own individual life. That even if you think you're in a low risk group you're still playing Russian roulette if you take risks.
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Old 21st April 2020, 01:51 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
It's not the smoking, it's the nicotine that is protective. All about the ratio of ACE and ACE-2 receptors. I had to read through a bunch of papers to get at why that could be!!

Nicotine downregulates ACE-2 receptors which SarsCovid-2 hijacks to infect. (There are some new prelim studies that try to contradict this but it is a well-studied fact) An otherwise healthy smoker would have less chance of getting a severe case. However, smoking leads to (or is often correlated to) all sorts of other diseases that prove co-morbid with it. So I guess it depends.

Should we all be taking up vaping?
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Old 21st April 2020, 03:53 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That's because it's not the end of the world. There are too many people on the planet anyway. It's true that removing say 10% of them at random would be a huge disruption and possibly strain civilisation due to the effect on supply chains and production and so on (although that wouldn't apply if it was a slow process allowing for managed contraction and recruitment of replacements), but losing 1% of the population skewed towards retired people is not a threat.

Even if this is never controlled and it gets to the stage where it's endemic and people are dying of it at a constant but much slower rate, it's not a threat to civilisation. Not even if people who recovered from it this year get it again and die of it in 2022, so long as the case fatality rate stays around 1%. (And by the way none of that is going to happen because we will have a vaccine for this within two years, probably sooner.)

What it is, is a threat to your individual life. It's a very odd virus in the wide range of clinical severity seen. I can't immediately think of anything else that ranges from asymptomatic through the whole spectrum of very mild to severe to fatal quite like this one does. And while some things seem to tip the odds in your favour (being white, female, under 60, blood group O, and even, counterintuitively, apparently being a smoker) there will be plenty of young white women with O blood group who enjoy a fag who will die of this. If they were able to figure out why some people are so seriously affected and some aren't it might help, but apart from viral load I don't think anyone knows.

So it's down to "do you feel lucky, punk?" You're playing Russian roulette if you allow yourself to get infected with this thing. There may only be one bullet per 100 chambers, but do you really fancy your luck that much?
Well yes, in the good old days of flying, imagine the welcoming flight attendant cheerfully saying the good news is there is a 99% chance this plane will land safely, you will be alive.
(also a defence of jury verdicts)
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Old 21st April 2020, 04:57 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Should we all be taking up vaping?
Sugar-free nicotine gum, perhaps?
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Old 21st April 2020, 05:35 AM   #230
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Anders Wallensten, deputy chief epedemiologist, clarifies that Sweden's strategy was never herd immunity, but managing the curve as to not collapse the health care system. Was stated outright.
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Old 21st April 2020, 05:40 AM   #231
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That's been the rhetoric coming from Westminster, but what's the difference? You either try to suppress the virus and prevent it spreading, or you don't.
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Old 21st April 2020, 06:52 AM   #232
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This article suggests Sweden's strategy is working.
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Old 21st April 2020, 07:07 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Anders Wallensten, deputy chief epedemiologist, clarifies that Sweden's strategy was never herd immunity, but managing the curve as to not collapse the health care system. Was stated outright.

Sorry, he may say so, but I don't believe him. Besides, I don't see the difference between going for herd immunity and this:

Quote:
Stockholm ligger långt över det globala genomsnittet för hur många som har haft covid-19. I går gick WHO ut och sa att bara några få procent av jordens befolkning är smittade, men flera studier visar nu att en tredjedel av alla stockholmare har smittats.
Mer än en halv miljon smittade i Stockholm (SVT.se, April 21, 2020)
Stockholm is far above the global average of the number of people with Covid-19. Yesterday, the WHO said that only a few percent of the population of the Earth were infected, but several studies not show that one third of the population of Stockholm are infected.
More than half a million people in Stockholm are infected
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 07:11 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
This article suggests Sweden's strategy is working.

If herd immunity is not what they are going for, it sure is what they are getting:

Quote:
Albert thinks the actual situation isn’t far away from the ballpark suggested by professor Tom Britton in a study that was released this weekend: that between 25 and 40 per cent of the Stockholm population have had the virus and that the region will reach herd immunity in late May.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 08:06 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
It's not the smoking, it's the nicotine that is protective. All about the ratio of ACE and ACE-2 receptors. I had to read through a bunch of papers to get at why that could be!!
This would mean Swedish snus may be protective?
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Old 21st April 2020, 08:07 AM   #236
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Quote:
Anders Jansson, överläkare och en av medförfattarna till debattartikeln av de 22 forskarna och läkarna, går till hård attack mot bland annat Agnes Wold, Alex Schulman och Karin Bojs i en debattartikel i Aftonbladet.
Han menar att syftet med de debattartikeln var att om möjligt minska mängden i onödan smittade och döda med hjälp av deras forskning och kunskap.

”Okränkbar guru”
Det som i stället följde beskriver han som ett mediedrev av självutnämnda experter och bloggare, utan egna sakkunskaper, som flockades kring Anders Tegnell som blev en ”okränkbar guru och den ende sanne uttolkare av världens samlade medicinska vetenskap”.

Överläkaren rasar över kritiken mot de 22 debattörerna (Aftonbladet.se, April 21, 2020)
Anders Jansson, leading MD and one of the authors of the debate article by the 22 researchers and doctors, counterattacks among others Agnes Wold, Alex Schulman and Karin Bojs in a debate article in Aftonbladet.
He thinks that the purpose of the debate article was to lower the risk of unnecessary infections and deaths by means of their research and knowledge.
”Sacrosanct guru”
He describes what happened instead as a media flood of self-appointed experts and bloggers, without any expertise of their own, who joined ranks around Anders Tegnell, who became a “sacrosanct guru and the only true interpreter of the totality of medical science.”

Quote:
Confirmed infected in Sweden: 15 322
• Deathsl: 1 765
• Deaths reported in the last 24 hours: 185

Latest News about the Cornonavirus (Aftonbladet.se, April 21, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 08:10 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
This would mean Swedish snus may be protective?
Hello?

You must be new here!

Welcome to the ISF.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 21st April 2020, 08:12 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
This article suggests Sweden's strategy is working.
Isn't this a "told you so" article from The Spectator, and specifically from a Swedish advocate of the policy?

The UK's ministers at the Downing Street briefing are also telling us that their strategy is going more or less as planned and things are fine. Any problems are those that couldn't be helped, etc...
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 21st April 2020, 08:14 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
This article suggests Sweden's strategy is working.
Depends what you mean by "working". 185 new deaths added to the total today, going back nearly a month. The rate of death continues to be grow, though slowing. Denmark, Finland, and Norway reversed deaths quite some time ago.

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Old 21st April 2020, 08:15 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Hello?

You must be new here!

Welcome to the ISF.
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