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Old 18th June 2020, 03:57 PM   #81
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The Tories are stealing public money via phoney contracts for hundreds of millions of pounds to phoney companies set up by their friends, families and donors. This is what kleptocracy looks like and it's 4 years until the next election.
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Old 19th June 2020, 07:01 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post


That's possible. But keep in mind his base is not 45% of the electorate, it's more like 20-25% of the electorate, with another 20% or so who go along with the charade in order to get certain things they want done.
I don’t really see it that way. There is a core base who think crazy right wing polices are working and another core base who can see these ridiculous polies are not working and think that if you change the leader but keep all the crazy policies they will suddenly start to work. Neither group is ever going to vote for anyone else no matter how incompetent and repugnant “their side” is, because “the other side is worse”. The “other side is worse” because they oppose the crazy, unworkably and offensive polices.

The UK has the same problem. Eg May legitimately tried her best to take the pile of ***** that was Brexit and negotiate a real agreement around it. This failed because there is no version of Brexit that is as good for the UK as remaining in the EU but instead of recognizing the basic policy was flawed Conservatives doubled down and put in a new leader who promised even stricter adherence to eh stupid policy idea. When BJ fails, they will blame him for “not doing it right” and find someone as bad or worse to pursue the same doomed polices.
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Old 19th June 2020, 07:15 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Eg May legitimately tried her best to take the pile of ***** that was Brexit and negotiate a real agreement around it.
That's quite a kind way of putting it. She insisted on pushing for a hardline Brexit, when that isn't what people voted for at all.
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Old 19th June 2020, 07:20 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
That's quite a kind way of putting it. She insisted on pushing for a hardline Brexit, when that isn't what people voted for at all.
Exactly, EEA membership would have been so much less damaging.

Indeed only a no-deal would have been more damaging - but we're getting that anyway
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Old 19th June 2020, 08:29 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Exactly, EEA membership would have been so much less damaging.



Indeed only a no-deal would have been more damaging - but we're getting that anyway
Hey give them a chance. I'm sure they will be able to end up with something that is worse than a no deal.....
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Old 19th June 2020, 08:33 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Hey give them a chance. I'm sure they will be able to end up with something that is worse than a no deal.....
Well that would be the US trade deal as envisaged by President Trump
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Old 19th June 2020, 10:55 AM   #87
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There's definitely a part of me curious to see what a trade deal negotiated by Trump and Johnson would actually look like. So please, universe if you're listening, if we absolutely must have such a deal, let Johnson and Trump co-author the actual text personally, and then let us all read it.

I expect determining by the language which of the two wrote which bit would be as difficult as determining by Sue Storm's haircut whether a particular scene in Josh Trank's Fan4stic was a re-shoot or not.
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Old 19th June 2020, 11:00 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
The Tories are stealing public money via phoney contracts for hundreds of millions of pounds to phoney companies set up by their friends, families and donors. This is what kleptocracy looks like and it's 4 years until the next election.
But don't worry, you're going to get Brexit inflicted on you in the most painful and stupid way imaginable.
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Old 19th June 2020, 11:02 AM   #89
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Where are all the Brexiteers? Shouldn't they be here telling us how wonderful Brexit will be?
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Old 19th June 2020, 11:03 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
The Tories are stealing public money via phoney contracts for hundreds of millions of pounds to phoney companies set up by their friends, families and donors. This is what kleptocracy looks like and it's 4 years until the next election.
Welcome to the USA under Trump. At least we've only got five months.
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Old 20th June 2020, 02:00 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
I don’t really see it that way. There is a core base who think crazy right wing polices are working and another core base who can see these ridiculous polies are not working and think that if you change the leader but keep all the crazy policies they will suddenly start to work. Neither group is ever going to vote for anyone else no matter how incompetent and repugnant “their side” is, because “the other side is worse”. The “other side is worse” because they oppose the crazy, unworkably and offensive polices.

The UK has the same problem. Eg May legitimately tried her best to take the pile of ***** that was Brexit and negotiate a real agreement around it. This failed because there is no version of Brexit that is as good for the UK as remaining in the EU but instead of recognizing the basic policy was flawed Conservatives doubled down and put in a new leader who promised even stricter adherence to eh stupid policy idea. When BJ fails, they will blame him for “not doing it right” and find someone as bad or worse to pursue the same doomed polices.
To be fair, May didn't exactly help herself by unilaterally adding all those red lines, that made it near impossible to reach any kind of agreement with the EU, other than a hard brexit.

Johnson ran for leadership on a promise of using his charm and force of personality to negotiate an even better agreement for the UK, while maintaining the same red lines. I'm not convinced the EU, having stated for so long that they were not going to reopen negotiations, then allowed for some small tweaks, which Johnson then sold as proof that the EU would buckle under pressure.
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Old 20th June 2020, 02:03 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Welcome to the USA under Trump. At least we've only got five months.
Or 4 years 5 months.

Or 12 years 5 months if Ivanka successfully picks up where Dad left off
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Old 20th June 2020, 02:47 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Conservative Home "The Voice of Conservatism" has published a piece by darren grimes on energy production 'post brexit'

He says

Shall I slap him or does someone else want that pleasure?


https://www.conservativehome.com/the...orth-east.html
And in the comments section, this gem:

Quote:
A sensible article, alas it will fall on deaf ears, primarily because we have a left-wing, scientifically-illiterate government that rather than scrapping the climate change act 2008, they instead made it even worse by adding net zero by 2050 - the most radical law ever passed by a UK government, which has guaranteed mass blackouts and economic destitution within the next 3 decades, and is a law no genuine conservative could ever support, just a pity the incompetent fool sitting in Downing Street isn't an actual conservative.
Yeah, those namby pamby lefties, get some proper right wing Tories in to sort the country out.
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Old 20th June 2020, 03:18 AM   #94
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Peter Hitchens published an article a few days ago saying basically the same - that the left control every stratum of power. It's the "Deep State" given a new hat.
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Old 21st June 2020, 02:50 AM   #95
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Minette Batters of the National Farmers Union says For Boris Johnson "to sign up to a trade deal which results in opening our ports, shelves & fridges to food which would be illegal to produce here would not only be morally bankrupt, it would be the work of the insane."
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Old 21st June 2020, 03:02 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Minette Batters of the National Farmers Union says For Boris Johnson "to sign up to a trade deal which results in opening our ports, shelves & fridges to food which would be illegal to produce here would not only be morally bankrupt, it would be the work of the insane."
And yet the farmers voted en-masse for Brexit. I'm finding it difficult to drum up too much sympathy.

OTOH I am very concerned about food standards but I suppose hundreds of thousands of extra cases of food poisoning and a thousand extra deaths a year is a price worth paying for the blue passports it turns out we could have had all along if we were that bothered about it

I suppose the large farming companies will be bought off with generous subsidies and the small farms will just go out of business making second homes so much cheaper for the urban wealth creators
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Old 21st June 2020, 03:03 AM   #97
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Farmer's are overwhelmingly Tory.
they were lied to by the party they support and fell for it.
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Old 21st June 2020, 03:25 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Farmer's are overwhelmingly Tory.
they were lied to by the party they support and fell for it.
I am not sure they bought the lies rather they bought the jingoism of the leave campaign and imagined that rules would be changed to benefit them without putting any thought into how the world and trade deals work or the weak position the UK would be in.
Perhaps more a case of not thinking rather than believing what was put out. I have a farmer friend who sends his sheep to the EU who voted leave and is now facing 30%+ tariffs on a no deal WTO brexit. Doh!
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Old 21st June 2020, 04:52 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Conservative Home "The Voice of Conservatism" has published a piece by darren grimes on energy production 'post brexit'

He says

Shall I slap him or does someone else want that pleasure?


https://www.conservativehome.com/the...orth-east.html
And he's clearly not aware that recently we haven't needed to use coal for electricity generation.
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Old 21st June 2020, 06:30 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
And he's clearly not aware that recently we haven't needed to use coal for electricity generation.
But if we all went back to using coal there would be no need to re-open schools, the kids could all be employed up chimneys.

Think of the extra income tax it would generate.
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Old 21st June 2020, 07:27 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post
But if we all went back to using coal there would be no need to re-open schools, the kids could all be employed up chimneys.

Think of the extra income tax it would generate.
I'm sure a certain Leader if the House would find the idea 'uplifting'.
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Old 21st June 2020, 07:42 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Or 4 years 5 months.

Or 12 years 5 months if Ivanka successfully picks up where Dad left off
And I forgot to include the lame-duck period anyhow!
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Old 21st June 2020, 10:25 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post
But if we all went back to using coal there would be no need to re-open schools, the kids could all be employed up chimneys.

Think of the extra income tax it would generate.
No, send them back down the mines.
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Old 21st June 2020, 12:41 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Conservative Home "The Voice of Conservatism" has published a piece by darren grimes on energy production 'post brexit'

He says

Shall I slap him or does someone else want that pleasure?


https://www.conservativehome.com/the...orth-east.html
To be fair, he's not really arguing for going back to coal for electricity generation, but for:
Quote:
There’s a massive domestic demand for coal in such industries as steel, cement, the UK’s heritage railways and even for the heating of rural homes. Going forward, once all coal-fired generation ceases, it’s estimated that the UK will still need around five million tonnes for these industries every year.
I thought you were in favour of getting coal for heritage railways?
Although we should be moving away from coal for steel, and we should cut back on cement/concrete use anyway.

And we should really cut back on home use as well.

I should also add that a new coal mine was approved end of last year in Cumbria for coking coal.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-50274212

I'm not defending him, as we should be looking at alternatives, but there will be demand for coal in the UK, even at though its less than what it was.
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Old 21st June 2020, 05:36 PM   #105
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We still have coal, it's not mined though, it comes from open cast.

Heritage Railways need hard, low clinker, low sulfur coal.
Soft coal breaks up and small fragments and dust gets lifted by the draught depositing in the fire tubes and smokebox, this reduces gas flow and heat transfer and reduces steaming.
Clinker clogs the firebars reducing air flow and sulfur causes erosion of fire tubes and boiler tube plates.
Welsh coal was the best, current UK coal isn't suitable. It comes from Poland now.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 07:15 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
To be fair, May didn't exactly help herself by unilaterally adding all those red lines, that made it near impossible to reach any kind of agreement with the EU, other than a hard brexit.
Those red lines reflected what Brexit supporters wanted and expected. Remember, I’m not saying that she could have done something better than what the UK is getting now. I’m saying that trying to implement the policies Brexit supporters and the political right want was never going to work, any honest attempt to make them work was always doomed to fail.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 07:29 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Minette Batters of the National Farmers Union says For Boris Johnson "to sign up to a trade deal which results in opening our ports, shelves & fridges to food which would be illegal to produce here would not only be morally bankrupt, it would be the work of the insane."
UK farmers generally bought into the notion the UK would be able to sell the EU products that couldn’t be produced legally in the EU. I don’t know why it would surprise them find out that the people who thought this could happen are fine with importing US made products that couldn’t be made legally in the UK.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 07:40 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Those red lines reflected what Brexit supporters wanted and expected.
That's not true. The red lines were to appease hard-line Brexiteers, but that's not what the majority of people actually voted for.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 08:12 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
That's not true. The red lines were to appease hard-line Brexiteers, but that's not what the majority of people actually voted for.
Yes it was, they just didn't know it.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 09:11 AM   #110
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Boris Johnson's father is in the process of applying for a French passport to maintain his ties with Europe after Brexit.

Stanley Johnson, a former MEP who voted Remain in the referendum, has requested to become a French citizen as his mother Irene was born in Versailles.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9416636.html
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Old 22nd June 2020, 09:51 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes it was, they just didn't know it.
Exactly. The nation voted by a massive 52 to 48 to get off the EU plane as it didn't like the imagined destination. And that's as good as saying we wanted to jump without a parachute. But don't worry because we'll knit a wonderful parachute before we jump. Oh. I mean after we jump, while we plummet. And a vote for Boris is a vote for absolutely not moving the ground further away to give us more time. Look at the people down there on the ground: they're fine, so what's the problem? And if we finish our knitting, which will be easy, remember not to touch the ripcord, because the EU will cave in any second now. Any second now. Any second.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 10:27 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Exactly. The nation voted by a massive 52 to 48 to get off the EU plane as it didn't like the imagined destination. And that's as good as saying we wanted to jump without a parachute. But don't worry because we'll knit a wonderful parachute before we jump. Oh. I mean after we jump, while we plummet. And a vote for Boris is a vote for absolutely not moving the ground further away to give us more time. Look at the people down there on the ground: they're fine, so what's the problem? And if we finish our knitting, which will be easy, remember not to touch the ripcord, because the EU will cave in any second now. Any second now. Any second.
And at least they finished a nice warm woolly jumper or as they call it now, and Australian parachute.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 10:28 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
That's not true. The red lines were to appease hard-line Brexiteers, but that's not what the majority of people actually voted for.
“Leave” voters voted to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted the red lines (and other things) but didn’t want the consequences. Exactly what they were voting for still isn’t clear because it included things that were mutually exclusive from the start. I think there is no real world deal that would have won that referendum.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 10:32 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
“Leave” voters voted to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted the red lines (and other things) but didn’t want the consequences. Exactly what they were voting for still isn’t clear because it included things that were mutually exclusive from the start. I think there is no real world deal that would have won that referendum.
Exactly.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 10:35 AM   #115
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How is the hiring and training of new border inspectors going with COVID? And is there going to be a hard Irish border on the 1st?
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Old 22nd June 2020, 10:38 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And is there going to be a hard Irish border on the 1st?
<mode=Raab>No there will be no hard border. The hard border will be fully manned and ready on the 1st. I think we've made that clear.</Raab>
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Old 22nd June 2020, 10:41 AM   #117
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
<mode=Raab>No there will be no hard border. The hard border will be fully manned and ready on the 1st. I think we've made that clear.</Raab>
If you want your impression to be convincing you have to step in a waste paper basket then fall out of a window leaving your trousers snagged on the frame. Otherwise it smacks too much of competence.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 01:22 PM   #118
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Brexit is on course to cost the UK more than its combined total of payments to the European Union budget over the past 47 years.

Quote:
Brexit is set to have cost the UK more than £200 billion in lost economic growth by the end of this year — a figure that almost eclipses the total amount the UK has paid toward the European Union budget over the past 47 years.

According to research by Bloomberg Economics, the cost of the UK's vote to leave has already reached £130 billion, with a further £70 billion likely to be added by the end of 2020.

The analysis, by the economist Dan Hanson, found that business uncertainty had caused the UK's economic growth to lag behind that of other G7 countries since the 2016 vote.

That means the British economy is 3% smaller than it might have been if the UK had not voted to leave the EU.
https://www.businessinsider.com/brex...s-to-eu-2020-1
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Old 22nd June 2020, 02:22 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Brexit is on course to cost the UK more than its combined total of payments to the European Union budget over the past 47 years.



https://www.businessinsider.com/brex...s-to-eu-2020-1
The Bank of England says you are heading for the biggest recession since 1706.

That is not a typo.

Think about that.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 10:08 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Brexit is on course to cost the UK more per year than its combined total of payments to the European Union budget over the past 47 years.
FTFY

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